 Welcome everybody my voice a little gone. Sorry about that, but welcome to classic cast Number 21. I believe we're classic cast number 21. We're here with Civ HD our guest Tips out stay safe It's gonna be a good time it's gonna be a good time for sure so a lot of you guys Yeah, a lot of you guys may know Civ some of you may not Civ is a formerly focusing on on League of Legends youtuber, but a long-time Wow player long-time classic wow fan and Civ actually if you want to go ahead and introduce yourself Yeah Sure thing. Thank you. That was already a great introduction. I've been very busy with League of Legends but Chet is already distracting me I feel like he changed Changed my introduction Yeah, I've been playing while classic when it came out on the American server very long time ago when I was a kid and a while ago I met as font during the You know the private servers and that was the hype and Now I'm very happy to be here to talk about my love for the game and Everything that I think it's great in it to try and win some souls over maybe Yeah, yeah, of course course that good. Yeah. No, that's great Yeah, so see if I first met kind of kind of in the old the YouTube days and See if actually This is when I was a streaming noob now I'm just bad at streaming before I was a noob and I was bad at streaming But I had a problem with like my notifications going off non-stop and Civ DM me on Twitter And he was like hey Like you can do this to fix it and I didn't see it till after the stream But I was like, oh, like great. Thanks, man. And I I didn't know Like I knew I knew of Civ, but I didn't know I didn't know Civ was Civ So I actually I Intermittently go back to to playing League of Legends every now and then and I was like man Like I was singing in my head like what would a peasants out in and in and I was like man I'm gonna go look up that video and I click on it. I was like wait, that's that's that's Civ Like Civ did this video Like I didn't know I used to watch his videos like all like I didn't know it was him But yeah, that was it was great, but I'm older than I look the the the old dogs of League of Legends back in the day So no, it's it's been great. So what did you I mean? We haven't really gotten any any news recently and it's been a while since we've done a classic cast Yes But what did you think when we haven't caught up with you since blizzcon? What did you kind of think about everything you heard at blizzcon? I Thought sound really promising. Mm-hmm. It sounds like they're sticking to the plan Which I like and it sounds like everything I want while classic to be is gonna be in there I was a bit disappointed. I have to wait so long, but that that shouldn't damage the game, you know Yeah, that'll just generate more hype really so Especially there are so many games that release early your early access and they end up just flopping so I'm Okay They'll be polished when they do come out, I'm okay with that. That's true. That's true Do you consider yourself in the the no changes camps ever in the changes camp? Do you want to see vanilla as it was or I'm not in the no changes camp in the way that I? Guess I am in the no changes camp because I don't trust blizzard, you know They can't not fuck it up if they were allowed to do that, but I do think I Value while classic for its gameplay like the game mode. I think it's better. I think it's great and I would love to talk more about that and So so stuff like graphics or like I don't care like If it's up to me, they could update the graphics. I wouldn't care and a Lot of those things. Yeah, you're you're more like because I've talked about this before right? There's a there's a difference between Nostalgia and gameplay like the reasons why people like classic and a lot of people like classic a lot more for the gameplay than people give it credit for But for me personally like there's there's a big Like that's that's a big focus for me But there's certain like aspects from like the nostalgia standpoint that it's like I really I really prefer the older graphics Just straight up to the newer graphics like I understand like the new graphics look nicer than that But I really don't like a lot of the new animations and one of the hardest things for me one of our first sort of playing retail after Not playing well. Yeah, it's like I started playing and it was it was I couldn't track What was happening on the screen because it looked so different like there was lights and stuff was flashing and I Didn't really like that so much. I was just like I felt like an old man, dude. It was bad like I already feel like an old man in real life, but The game was not good so So yeah, for sure. I mean we we've talked about this quite a bit like, you know, the BlizzCon news and all that and Actually, you know talking about the Talking about the timing of when it releases Stay safe and talked about this before and you might want to expand on it, but Talking about the the summer release date and what that could actually mean and If it being longer is actually good stay safe. Do you want to do you want to go in on that? Yeah, so they've said it'll come out in summer 2019 summer I guess technically ends, you know midway through September. I would bet that we'll probably see it in September You know, maybe late August, but I would bet September I think they're probably gonna take as much time as they possibly can they were sort of vague with the summer They said summer that's you know, that's like four months or four and a half months So that could be anywhere in there, but I would guess it's it's mid-september now One thing that is maybe what's disgusting we can talk about this is when are we gonna get an alpha? We're gonna when are we gonna get a beta if we look back at Legion wad and Bfa they on average they have their alpha come out seven months prior to release That doesn't sorry. Would you really need a beta? Yeah, thanks. I think so. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, what what for like I'm open to the idea But could you explain because to me it's like we've played this game. We know what it needs to be It's not like we want gameplay tested So did you did you play in the demo very much? I? I'd avoid it There's a lot of yeah, there's a lot of rough edges that I think okay There's a lot of rough edges They're down porting they're down porting the game from the current client sieve Uh-huh firing up, you know patch 1.12 They're essentially taking the modern game and then recreating classic while on top of it So yes, I created a lot of problems a lot of inconsistencies So I think a beta be good like so you can test all those inconsistencies just the bug dusting. Yeah, exactly exactly right, right? Okay Yeah, so what I was gonna say is with the last three expansions that they've come out with the alphas come out seven months prior to release That would put if the if classic well follows the same trend that would put the alpha in February next month So maybe maybe we could see a classic alpha if they're gonna do that next month fingers crossed Confirmed you're on okay. I know We can only hope but uh well going back to the note. I want to go back. Sorry for the truck. No go ahead Yeah, we were talking about possible changes, and we mentioned this before the stream That I heard there was one no change tips out. He's he wants the population Locked at the what it used to be like the 3k That right. Yeah, and and from them My time in the private servers. I thought the 10k was great. I thought it made it better I thought that was great. Could you elaborate on why? 3k is is so good for you Well, there's there's kind of two things that play here There's my personal preference, and then there's I think what's what might be a little bit better for the whole game right and um, I do think there's magic in having a 3k server in the sense that you know You walk into our grammar iron forge and you see that same group of people over and over again We established that community. Everybody knows everybody all the guilds know each other Whereas on like a 10 12k server Because the population is so big it almost feels like a cross realm zone at times It feels like you know, there's just too many people right to keep track of everybody I 100% see where you're coming from and and I heard that point being made during the Classic gas with the devs that that is why they like 3k, but to be honest And I agree that phasing the servers really damages what you like there You know they're recognizing people like you may as well be seeing ghosts in dark souls, you know I'm never gonna. I don't know who this is. I'm never gonna see him again. Yeah, but I do feel like in the 10k I Did recognize a lot of people, you know when I was traveling going on the boats I did feel like still I recognize a lot of these guys Maybe even maybe it would even happen more than on a 3k server in that way Yeah, like definitely understandable and like I don't want to say I don't like playing on 10k servers because I do and there's a lot of benefits to that, too And like I honestly internally I ping pong back and forth But I think the thing that makes me really commit to the 3k is the whole changes versus no changes thing even Population it was what it was if we open up that door to change even that You've got everybody and their mother saying oh, we want to change this you want to change that It's like yeah, you don't want to open the door One sort of you know opening the door so to speak if you have more you know, you've 10k people How are you just in herb nodes? How are you adjusting mob respawn rates? How are you adjusting by world boss respawn rates it? There are so many implications and you have you can't just it's not just as simple as Population cap it there are a million domino effect things that trigger off of that So I feel like we all know what the lights hope guys did there, you know the The Equation that it's skilled is there something about that that you're not happy with because it sounds that way when you say there's Things in motion that happen. So what what I'm a favor of when I'm in favor of this I think on an alpha or beta. I think they should find The largest this this is sort of middle ground between the two of you guys They should find the largest reasonable amount of people that the unaltered Same respawn rates everything vanilla version of Azeroth can accommodate it was two and a half or three thousand Maybe that's four and a half or five thousand without changing anything What's the max player load that this world without any respawn rates or anything like that can accommodate reasonably? Mm-hmm and go with that, but that would take a lot of testing and that would take a lot of effort I would I would for that though Yeah, I think I keep talking at same time. Well, no, it's good. Go ahead. Good, but I want to I want to hear If you have questions like I want to hear questions because this is good. Yeah, I feel like I went into this on the 10k player cap boat But now I'm doubting because I feel like not opening the doors is a great idea and I can also see I think The the the whole part where there's a limited amount of resources and I think you know It affects the auction house and everything if you create a lot more of that Yeah, I think that's kind of where you were going. Well, it's like the kind of like the butterfly effect Yeah, the sort of thing right where it's like you change one thing and it's no walls into a bunch of other stuff I think I think one of the biggest issues is whenever it comes to population cap is People have people played the game They people have played the game more recently right on private servers and you know in some other aspect And then they remember playing the game back then and then they know the facts, right? And they look at like okay, like allegedly it was about like three thousand was the population cap and we we talked to So before I'm hoping I'm remembering this correctly But before everybody kind of thought that it was it was purely a technical limitation And that's what John Stats had told us John Stats told us that he was pretty sure it wasn't a hundred percent Like on that side of things because he's more doing level design stuff And he said he thought it was a little technical invitation and then one of them Mark Kern on Mark Kern told us that That it was they did that by design So they I mean maybe like some technical stuff like came into play But that was something that they did by design like they wanted it at about 3,000 so That was something that a lot of people were I Think nobody really knew that nobody really knew that it like what it was for sure a hundred percent But that's what we heard from them. So the the question that comes into play after that is Do I want that experience from like what I know what the facts are and what I used to play on or Is my experience from playing on a private server with like 10 12k 8k pop? Is that something that I found really enjoyable and then it kind of like throws off what what I think would be best that's the main thing what's gonna be best for the game and If you have 8k 10k 12k pop, there's probably going to need to be something changed on the back end whether it's dynamic Responds a lot like what a lot of private servers do which nano actually we had nano nano was on my stream I don't know if he said this on the podcast, but nano from NOS. He was quality assurance for the NOS team he said that He thought dynamic resons probably would not be a good solution if there was if there was higher population caps It probably would not be a good solution and that's somebody who did that on NOS I've got a different question on a population Which I think is relevant to all of us here. Do you right now? We're in the the age of Streamers and you two is mm-hmm and 3k is not many people for a big streamer, right? Like wouldn't asthma gold server always be five-year queue, you know much. Yeah So, you know That's something need to happen there. I feel like that is a reasonable issue I feel like you can't they can't design classical service around streamers, right? Yes, maybe maybe the first day or two there'll be long log-in queues after 24 hours 40 hours people get pissed off They'll go somewhere else That's how it's gonna have to be think it fix itself. I think in general like you I think it's It depends on how big game you're making Right, I think it's it's a good idea for like the marketability of your game to make a game stream friendly But that's not what like classic. Why does it need that right classic the game is the content? It's it's gonna be just fine on its own. I think to do things to kind of like cater to streamers as far as well, I should say Changing like large-scale things right because of streaming alone is It's probably not a good idea That's what I would think right now, but I think because it'll it'll probably just snowball and it's like this means this this means that I Think you're gonna have a case for sure like there are 20,000 people watching whatever streamer whether it's like asman or maybe soda or whoever and a Large percentage of that player bear that the viewer base is gonna want to play with them But the reality of it is is they're going to realize that they're not going to be able to There's only X amount of people in the raid. There's only X amount of people in the guild And there's only a well, I guess X Y Z what there's Z amount of people in the server, right? I think I think that's gonna be the biggest thing that happens Okay, that was one thing that I thought about I'll talk about this on the string and it's about the game design Principles I have and that I think are applied very well in Wow vanilla and not so well in retail Wow and I think those two rules are respect the distance and put value on Stuff yeah, so items have to be very valuable and sometimes those two things intertwine and I have an example Yeah, that's what I already see question marks. I've got an example to me So you all know where I'm coming from Yeah, okay, so imagine You're like level 29 warrior and you're going to The question marks. Yeah, you're going to no more gone. Okay, right? You're going there You you found friends you maybe you brought in two buddies and it asked you filled from trade chat or something You went to the place You did the dungeon takes a while and at the end you get that the Therma plugs left on the big axe, right? And in while classic That axe you're going to be using it for quite a while, right? This is it'll probably be good for a seven or six levels And if you play a couple hours a day that might be a week or two. That's quite a while So you're excited about this item. You're like, wow, I've got this item. I'm gonna use for very long time I feel much stronger now and You also feel value for that item because of what it took to get right so Walking there is applied there in that value But also how rough it was to just get people to go there because there was no group finder, right? Those rough edges Apply extra value to the items that you end up getting because it was harder to get It's true. Now if you go in retail and I just queue first of all, I'll just queue, right? I don't talk to the party blah blah blah. We've all bashed this a million times. I get the item but After that, not only do I feel less value because it was easy to get Two hours later This item is now relevant already have something better or I'll have out leveled it because there's a hundred twenty levels That take the same amount of time as 60. I Don't know why I did that. I think when they squish the numbers They should have just made it 60 levels again so that if you're leveling the stuff you find is actually relevant Like that would have been great. I Don't know why I didn't do that But that was a big opinion that I wanted to shove and do the table today. Yeah, no, I think I Think I think that's 100% true like you look at you look at any game You look at Dark Souls, right? Like we just put Dark Souls and the last night I I killed the boss in Dark Souls and it took me literally 96 attempts and I was just beating my head against the wall Yeah, like literally almost a hundred times and I Whenever I finally beat him like it felt really really good. All right. I got like a big sense accomplishment out of that I Think to the same extent Or didn't that in that same vein? Like one of your playing classic or what are you playing any other game? Right like in classic like you go through and like you said you go to the dungeon You do the thing no more gone is is a complete just it's totally aids Like if you're doing no more gone at the right level in vanilla. Wow, it's one of the worst Yeah, it's hard. Yeah, so you do it you get through it and then you know You get your items at the end you get whatever you're looking for and that's awesome Like that feels good and you know, you might have that axe until Who knows like you might pick up a freaking pendulum of doom in Old man and use it instead of selling it for some reason. I don't know right. Maybe a stone slayer or Rock pounder or whatever. Yeah, but yeah, no, I think there's there's a bunch of stuff that you could get But whenever you get a good item like it's gonna stay with you for a while And then when you look at max level like you you have it for maybe that entire raid tier, right? So it has to either be difficult to get it Or it has to be scars And even that I think it's better in vanilla like if I go to molten core I managed to get 40 nerds into a discord which is hard out that is difficulty right there and then Not that many items drop right right and that is also that adds a lot of value to the items Right now. Yeah, I kind of expect something to get something out of anything. I do in retail Well, yeah, not only not only does the item have to drop, you know, you're gonna have a master leader and he has to Loot it to you. You sort of have to you have to you have to get that proc twice almost. Yeah That's the drop. Yeah, you have to be given it. That's true And that that's why like items are just much more hype in that game You know and even when you're leveling all the things you find are Relevant in a way. So even the copper or even like killing a wolf drop and I get the letter or even like cooking ingredients They are relevant in a way that I could sell it on auction house and the money Carries value to me, you know, like money in classic is valuable. Whereas on retail. You could just buy it so, you know the economy is so good and Wow classic that it just keep ties the whole game together and That's something I really miss in retail because in a way, well, I really like to compare games To board games because when you talk about board games, it's all about the gameplay It's not about graphics or anything. Yeah about the gameplay and While classic is a better board game because the economy is half the game in a way or maybe even more than hell And that's how you always have something to do I totally agree. I've ranted about this a million times I mean, I think all MMOs were so popular because they were a completely separate different social hierarchy, right? So in real life, it doesn't matter if you're rich. No, it does matter real life What I'm trying to say is if you have if you have a lot of money or a big dip or whatever It doesn't matter if you you come in you come into an MMO none of that matters Yes matters in the MMO none of that stuff carries over to the MMO The only thing that matters is how you perform within the game. Yes I mean imagine chess imagine chess If you could pay $50 and buy another queen or if you could resurrect your queen for $50. Yeah, that would be done deal Dude easy wins. Yeah Also, I also feel like if I'm grinding imagine I go grind for Dragon whelplings. That's something I like to do in classic easy way to make money and to turn my brain off completely even more normal and Imagine I Managed to grind for dragons in a couple days. I go to the auction house. I make my couple hundred goals I'm like, all right feels good and then some dude just comes in. Oh, that took you two days I just bought like ten times that That feels bad like that just lowers the value on what I just did big time, you know Absolutely, especially in classic where a lot of the greatest items are BOE's And that's one of the biggest differences between vanilla and retail is like Lionheart helm, you know, Titanic leggings, you know, even like cloud keep like there's so many good devil sore There's so many good BOE's in the game that if you added a cash shop It would it would just be off. It would destroy the game. Yeah destroy the game like a little they have the token in retail But like realistically, what are you gonna? What are you gonna buy with the token or retail? You know Maybe I'm coming off a little hard here I don't know if I'm making the chat pull back if I say this but I always feel like every single expansion that comes out Where you can still buy a goal is an insult to the players Big time like that is an insult to the players. You cuz they are they they know it's it's bad for the game They know, you know, so I Always I'm very mad at Blizzard for that and I rant about that a lot, but Yeah, I think I think pretty much having having the ability to I know I really like I Don't care that much about cosmetic items. I really don't but whenever it comes to anything that you can buy with like real money to Well, I mean, okay, well, I'll just go ahead and finish what I was saying, but If there's anything you can buy with money that's gonna be something to make you better or stronger in the game I'm pretty much like 99.9% of the time. I will up you there I will up you there and MMO is all about being fucking awesome. I want to walk through Stormwind and feel like So if I can buy a skin that's fucked, you know, yes, yes Buying skins or transmogs is pay to win right because winning is feeling like you look sick, you know I don't want that in my games. I don't want that. All right Yeah, and and what I was thinking like what I was thinking about specifically whenever I had a little bit of pause there Like I was thinking about Path of Exile like I got bought like big the bonus bank slots or whatever for Path of Exile I think that like if you have a game like that that's free to play and It wants you want to do like a you want to support the company, right? Like I'm enjoying this game This is great. Whatever. Yeah, sure. I'll buy a few bonus banks lots are like in League of Legends buying skins there If you want to buy some skins sure that that's kind of like a little bit different thing But yeah, no, that's like whenever it comes to MMOs I think like you should not be able to do stuff to like with real money to basically buy to purge your character like that No, well, it's you to specially not replace something. Maybe if it's like this complete separate thing But even then, you know, don't open the doors like we said before Yeah, in in in classic WoW scarcity of gold influences player behavior so much I mean if if you just walk around you ask people why are you in this dungeon? Oftentimes, it's to get gold. Why are you out here killing these monsters in the middle of nowhere? It's to get gold. Why are you doing this? Why are you doing that? It's to get gold like this the second you Second you remove that sense of scarcity you end up with people afk in their central town complaining There's nothing to do, which is where we're at right now. Yeah, I was talking a while ago That because people were saying retail is unfixable. It's unfixable. You can't fix it anymore Like there's all the gold in there and so I think it's fixable But you just have to like put take a shotgun and put it to some stomachs like like you'd have to literally Delete all the gold like like at the start expansion, but it's all gone now Like we deleted it. You can't buy it anymore Restart go like that. That's that's how you fix that but they're not gonna do that, you know Yeah, well, and I think the it's not a one expansion problem That's that's how bad that that's how bad a lot of the stuff's gotten right to where You have to phase things out like you can't just like delete the gold like you said You know, that's not something that like they sure like if they were to like make a new game from scratch Like to start at this point whatever but they feel like as a company like there's there's probably no way that they That you know that they could go through and do that like okay all of a sudden now boom like we're not gonna have Transmog or something right? I really don't think I don't think I mean I'll do it. I mean I Don't I don't like I'm like I'm not a fan of transmog necessarily, but Whenever I was playing BFA is a little bit better as far as like our design But whenever I was playing Legion I was like I could not imagine playing this game without transmog because I think everything looks so stupid They didn't like how anything looked pretty much after like I like some of the older stuff But like I like the newer stuff like I just like I'd like what the hell's going on here Yeah, you know, I think a lot of those things are good for retail like transmogging or you know Mythic plus dungeons. There's a lot of things in retail that are good For retail because they are busy keep mechanics because that game It's a game where nothing you do fucking matters. So you need busy keep mechanics You need you need like something to keep you going But I wouldn't want any of those things in a game where where where you know Everything is relevant and you don't need random busy keep mechanics like wow classic Exactly like You don't need transmog farming. You don't need any of that stuff the gameplay itself is sufficient and A lot of that has to do with what you talked about earlier save with the whole like you know Getting a level 29 acts and all those rough edges and stuff. Yeah, like when you have When the game itself is challenging when it's time-consuming not artificially but organically because that's how the world works Then yeah, you don't need you don't need any of that extraneous crap. I agree. No, no I'm even like to get back on mythic plus. I know it's like considered a successful feature and it's popular feature But I think even that there is the damage that it does here and there for example if I'm in Classic and I'm like, yo, I did onyxia Then I did onyxia people like why did I did that one's right? That's cool Just like if we share stories about Dark Souls bosses, we did this you went through this. Yeah, and In in Legion or BFA if I'm like, yo, I did this dungeon like oh, you did that dungeon, huh? What did you do it on? There's so many specifics, yeah suddenly the feeling of achievement and and purity of of of what have I done what have I? Achieve is gone like that's gone like I'd rather have the dungeon and then if I want something harder There's just a different dungeon, you know, and then I did this and It keeps the items clean just that item. You don't need like a plus 10 item keeps the game clean I like that so even though it's popular features It's plus 10 warforged Titan forge. Yeah, dude. There's like Literally like yeah, it might as well. It's like a it's like a stupid version of the path of exile talentry Like it's basically like what it is. It's like SpongeBob spatula. Yeah So like you have Like for example LFR and and I've talked about this before with LFR if somebody just wants to like see the content They can just do it on LFR and they can see the bosses whatever and it's like, okay I saw it but mm-hmm like you look back on it now and So many of us are in this situation where it's like you you talk to somebody who's like, oh, I did an axe in retail Right, and they actually did an axe in retail not they were 12 and they got ranked 14 and killed KT solo or whatever but Like people who like actually did an axe in retail and they're like like dude like that's that's sick Like that's badass. Like you actually like yeah, you didn't action retail like that's awesome I mean, I I've done it since on you. I've cleared all the content like on private server and stuff like since but To do it in retail while like it's it's really really cool and even actually even on private server like there's not like a Overwhelming majority of the population that is clear all the content on private server. I would even say but oh, yeah it's too much it takes an insane amount of dedication from a huge group of people and I've heard a lot of people say stuff like well, you know classic It's not gonna be the same because we already know how to do it We don't we know how to do this or that but The fact you have to take 40 people together like that's big Get all of them to go there 40 people like that alone and the scarcity of items makes that thing fun to do It's not like if you play a board game like cotton That it's gonna be boring when you know the fucking rules, you know or monopoly It doesn't change that That that we already know how to do it so trivial or doesn't matter Like that's such a stupid argument every every guild other than like method That's getting world-first boss kills is watching other guilds videos kill videos They're reading guides about it. They're yeah, they're reading forum posts like I know one other than the top one two Or maybe three guilds is doing this content originally without any assistance Exactly and and the hole we already know how to do a thing. It's like the gym, right? We all know how to lose weight. We all know how to get in shape But very few of us take that knowledge and then add the dedication to it to work out every single day To get into shape, you know what I mean? So it's like we could have all the knowledge in the world If not point the effort and the dedication day in day out every single day, you're never gonna reach your goals Yeah, and it's it's about like it's about actually like the process of getting there, right? It's it's about the process. I think Like sure like okay going back to Dark Souls again You can go and you can do dark I can go online and I can go watch a playthrough of Dark Souls. Oh great Like I did it right. Yeah, that doesn't really count, you know Yeah, no, I totally agree it feels like you went to the gym after your multi-core like Yeah, but I know I think I think all this is like really good And after one time no people will not see the difference in you, but if you went a couple times People are gonna be able to tell you went to multi-core. Yeah. Yeah, it's really good So yeah, I think I think one of her comes down to all that with the you've already like we've already done it We already know it's like no like you don't know like you you know the outline You don't know the process like you haven't they haven't gone through the process. It's totally different. Yeah No, LFR is Tinder LFR is Tinder LFR teaches you and Dungeon Finder teaches you that people other players in the game are disposable You use them and then after after you're done with the dungeon done with the raid You'll never discuss. You'll never talk to them ever again. Yeah And then you you you are encouraged to fuck them over actually a little bit Kind of yeah, like there cuz there's no there's no in it's it's indirect, right? There's no incentive to actually like build relationships with people in that in that aspect of the game There's no incentive to actually build relations with people in the work of people and to be like, okay At least from like a like a you know Like I guess bottom-line scenario. I can just do my thing. Whatever. I'll get my loot and I'll leave Like I only need these guys to queue up for the dungeon I really like that back in classic like sometimes someone would be like hey LFG Scarlet Crusade and then right below that there will be people like don't you if that guy steals everything You know like don't you if that guy like you can't change his name like you're ruined. Yeah, and that's a great thing True this is this is back when when your behavior actually mattered Actually like you you could you could fuck up You're in duskwood now you're 60 two months later and they remember your name and they're not gonna take you to their blockrock devs group Yeah, like your decisions actually have agency actually matter. They have an impact actually Yeah, I'm sorry. I didn't go in good Well, no exactly like one thing I see from a lot of new MMOs because I follow like a lot of MMOs But one thing I always see is like in all of their advertising trailers They always say be whatever you want to be be a thief be a be a night be this be that But the actual tools that are in place in the game don't allow you to be anything you want to be Like oh be a thief but there's nobody you can steal from because you can just queue up into different dungeons and farm gold as much As possible Because of things like LFR and so on and so forth one thing that vanilla allowed you to do It's like yeah If you want to be a bad guy if you want to be a villain on your server You can be a freaking villain on your server if you wanted Yeah, you know if you want to be a righteous Mofo you can do that too And it's like vanilla isn't a sandbox game, but it's it's very it has some sandbox elements It's very open-ended exactly exactly One thing I noticed is That I was expecting some feeling of nostalgia when I went back to private servers, you know, because I played vanilla Originally and back then going on a private service kind of just like being scuffed, you know Like that that's what poor people do. I don't want to do that You know like it had this bad rap like going on private service and then later when Retail started to crumble for me. I was like I don't want I want to go on a vanilla server now, you know, I want to go on the vanilla private server where the game is still good and I Went in with a feeling of I guess it's going to be a bit nostalgic and stuff and then the game was just much better than I Realized because because my memory of the game just got ruined a bit by by the you know how the game progressed into awfulness and It was better than I remember it like little things like I level through wetlands And at the end there is that kind of instance area, you know, like the elite mobs near the bridge Right with quests that I can't do alone and then I'm there and I'm like two minutes later Some dude rolls up and he wants to help me out to do it and you just make friends so much faster And these people also level with you and you keep running into them and every single Zone you meet more people like that because you're forced you're forced to make friends all the time And that's something I really miss now Yeah Yeah, I think that's something that's really important. I know I Dude, they're actually the craziest thing happens and it's only because of streaming, but I Logged in a while the other day and I tapped swing and trade chat and so it's like all a test fan, you know And I was like it was it was very it was very endearing it was very like endearing to me because I I Used to get that a lot like whenever I play on private server right because one that we was just like there's really one main server that people were playing on and Especially after I started streaming like a lot of people knew who I was but like even before like I had made friends and stuff without Streaming, you know, so it's like I'm talking trade chat and people know who I am and you know You go back and forth, but that's something that's even while I'm streaming on retail Wow, that's still something that's so rare to type in trade chat and then like somebody like recognize you I was just like oh like That's crazy. Yeah, it's just kind of like I used to always stalking trade chat man Yeah, the trade chat buddies like to gather be friends make it our girl annoy everyone else on the server that just wants to trade I think I think with the This whole like trying to The mentality of trying to force players to play a certain way whether it's in Like a gameplay perspective just like the actual gameplay or like the social aspect or whatever I think it's not good. You know, they added that spam filter to the trade chat. Oh, that is something I really would and this is this is something that is a concern I think if you're starting with the 735 client and down porting it The spam filter for trade chat or public chat channels. Oh Dude, I would hate to see that That's not like it works. Well, it's it it kills chat. I mean There's talking about the what is it like 30 seconds or what? I don't know what it is if I type 3 if I type 3 messages within like 10 seconds Then it triggers a spam filter and then I can't talk for like a minute It meets me and I like it totally kill like I okay, I get it Maybe I shouldn't be a spur and just What if you need to sell Yeah, exactly Just ignore you if you don't like it. Yeah, they don't like it. Just ignore me. Like that's fine But like the the spam filter it's so just like It's so it's it's oppressive That's how I feel is like I want to talk I want to I want to like conversate I want to I want to communicate with people And I can't do that in trade chat like every time I start talking to a channel and retail while I'm like, okay And then I get muted for a minute and then I ADD kicks in I forget so I just I don't know Spam filter ruin trade chat. Exactly. Exactly. So so they said something about which batch the game is starting at right or what they want They have a content release timeline. So right now the idea they floated is for content phases So it's pretty much molten core blackling layer It's like or sorry molten core Nixia blacking layers EG AQ in the next simply put so my question there is can I get That fucking Palomino now, can I get it? Can I get the Palomino? That's a good question. You want to know something those items were and they actually those original OG mounts were in the Classic WoW demo that we played after BlizzCon and they required unique Writing skills like mechanist writer or horse riding. So yeah Well, I have I'm with you. I hope so. I hope they're there. I want that Palomino man Yeah, I want to see it's been teased for 10 years Yes, I made it like I've worked with this a couple times when I was in Taiwan and I made it this inside joke that whenever they wanted something of me, I was like, okay, give me the Palomino and Didn't want to give it. So I guess there are some in track some integrity there, but they didn't want to give me the Palomino So here's question if they had actually said, okay, we'll give you If they had said, okay, so if we'll give you a Palomino, good job, would you have actually taken it? Oh, hell, yeah Palomino overrides all my ethics Yeah I'll sell it on eBay. Yeah, so you get it and then you sell me a complete bastard No, I think I Think kind of going we know we going back to BlizzCon a little bit. Let's reel it back a little bit You know talked about like on what we you know how you felt overall I think that a lot of what was confirmed at BlizzCon was pretty good, but there's some things that There's some things that they said they're not sure about right like they talked about like loot trading Like the loot trading stuff that it is in retail. Wow, and you know, there was some talks about sharding We kind of touched on sharding already with like the population cap stuff, but um, yeah There was that and then the content release. They said there's gonna be essentially like four patches instead of like 11 patches How do I heard there was something that they changed the loot like how you loot things that they yeah Retail one so so basically with loot trading what it is is if you get an item You have two hours to trade it and you can get a VIP item like that. Yeah, I don't like that at all I don't know if anybody does Honestly, I don't think anybody I feel like the guy that is in my dungeons that keeps my loot and it's like oh I'll trade it for you If you find something for me like that guy likes it. I think he likes it, but I don't like that Yeah, I honestly don't know if anybody who's been a long time like fan of classic wow who wants classic wow That thinks that's a good idea that likes that. I think a lot of people are really like just like, you know, what the hell's going on I think I was gonna say the argument for doing it is to cut down on GM tickets and you know So GM's don't have to solve people's loot problems all day But if that's the problem if that's the issue they're concerned I'd rather just have them say you know what if you give the Loot to the wrong person or something goes wrong. Just tough tough luck. That's just how it's gonna be sorry Yeah, yeah fall or hire more GM's you're a billion-dollar company You're gonna afford an extra army of Indian support, you know, it's got rid of like a hundred of them They're not gonna do that. Yeah, it's it's not a I don't I don't know if that one's gonna work out Unfortunately, I don't think they're gonna I think like obviously like that that's something that seems the most reasonable thing to do But we know how that goes So I think that I think the best case scenario is just to like just yeah Just I mean that's that's kind of like I guess selfish like personal opinion of mine, too Is like just personal just just personal responsibility. Like if you screw up you screw up, right? if you have a case of If you're if you're looking for a middle ground and I've said this, you know Like I've kind of been on this since blizzcon But if you want a middle ground something that makes the most sense for what Blizzard wants to accomplish And what makes the most sense to kind of keep the integrity of the game as it is At least only do it for a master looting and like a raid environment Because that's the only time where it's like legitimately like somebody makes a mistake and and It gets rid of like 90% of the abusive situations where somebody like needs it on a dungeon and they're like no I'm gonna hold it hostage or you go in with some friends. You talk about your no more gonna run, right? You know we're gone with your two friends and like one's a priest and one's a rogue and you're a warrior Let's say and then they just they roll on it They win it and they just give it to you so now you got three rolls instead of one Versus how many else other people are in the group? So I think it's Therefore why don't they come in the group by themselves? I think I think that's just the way that's just the way it should be is they should just not have anything at all But but at least at least if you want a middle ground something that's the most reasonable I think I think the master loot and a raid environment is is the only thing that Right, the only solution I can think of that that is probably something that they'll do I want to change the topic. There's one thing. I really like in old bar and I'm gonna reveal something people will be sad about but I was hunter I play hunter and One thing I really liked was the pet system like There was value I'm here. I come with the value again Recurring theme. I there was a lot of value in your pet because you had to level it up So if I have like the green elwin forest trash spider Even that would get value if I level that to 60 or or you know 70 later because because people can tell I level that thing and That makes it more than just an empty shell It makes it this thing. You can't just change And I missed that I thought that was awesome And adds another layer of progression. That's outside of rays and yeah, and it and it helps with the the class fantasy Yeah, that's fantastic. Yeah, what one thing I liked about being hunter in classic is I would fill literally all my bags with ammo and Then I would go shoot wealth things until until all the bags are full with zero, but with zero arrows Just empty all of them. It takes like 10 hours. Actually, no, that would that's like two times It takes like four or five hours just shoot shoot them and Sound like a crazy person I've never played hunter and I'm sure there is something listening. Have you guys ever gotten set? I play warlock So if my demon dies, I mean, whatever does someone cares Whatever, but if you're a hunter and you're and your pet dies Have you ever gotten sad that your pet has died when you were younger or do you have any Make really sad sounds You know That's that's it warlocks warlocks, I guess I think it's good. I love when demons died. You just banish them to hell, dude The whelplings though. They it's a satisfying sound when they die Have you ever have you ever formed back there or have you ever um, have you ever gotten the The the the whelpling pet while shooting those Well, yes, that's that's how I make the money. Oh, okay. There you go Myself a well playing trader. Yeah, okay, and That's also how I like to level I grind the shit out of the whelplings of wetlands level 21 to 30 ish Then I move on to the the brown whelplings. Yeah The ones in Badlands Yes, you're right. And and after that there's like a couple levels where you can't kill well planks But then the party starts again You can go to the swamp serves a shoot green ones. There you go And those are worth even more money and they're like next to a chest. You can loot all the time. Thank you. Yeah, big value Plays I recommend it. That's exactly how I level the That's how you level. That's exactly I knew I recognize myself. I knew it's the whelpling murder It's a great way to make money and now We're gonna start fresh right when when classic comes up So I'm a bit confused how I'm how will I afford my month because normally I kill the well planks I sell the well playing to some rich level 60 and then I buy my month, but now there will be no rich level 60 I don't know how I will afford them out true at launch, but late game, you know, give it a couple months I bet well thing price are gonna be huge because there's gonna be so many retail while players Retail while players love pets. So to come over and they're gonna buy the weapons for a ton of right You know what I cuz I'm economics. I think I will make commercial for having well-planked that Like how they are the best and get the seals up. Good. Good idea. Well, also you have the I can't remember the name of them the red. They're like livers for dragon breath chili Those sell really well people want dragon breath Flames, yeah, they they you want those for for dragon breath chili as well So I used to go for a lot of those and they'll sell pretty well, too But also like grinding those turtles in the north south shore near the Lake with the little castle in it, you know The regular castle and then there's that beach of all the turtles and you shoot the turtles and then you can also fish The fish that are in that lake and the level 60s need it because it's for the mana Potion thing. Oh, okay, and that's easy money. There you go. Easy money. I'll be here all week So so you Did you always made a hunter? It is hunter always been like your yes first. I'll but not well first I was dwarf out there. Okay, and then I switched to to our female hunter. Well, of course Yes, of course. Why so like what was the pee? I mean obviously like, you know, you're Civ You know, he's a big fan of the juke's The feign death juke is you know, yes, the early the early version of the Leblanc juke, of course Can I say something about feign death? Yeah, go ahead there. I've been playing hunter during Draenor and Legion as well, you know a little bit and there's something I noticed I Guess you didn't notice this because this is a European thing. We got grouped with Russians okay, and They always fall for feign death always. I Could do it at half HP. They will be like, oh, he's dead. I will go over there every single time Doesn't matter doesn't like doesn't matter how good or bad it is. It'll work Nice and it works for no one else. I don't know. It's true. It's true. I don't know why it's a Like do you think it's just a coincidence? I choose not to answer this There's one thing I'm hyped for in classic which is I will level night elf priest and I will call her the fast lift and then I will stand next to the great lift in shadow melt and Mind control people The fast lift and I will make a beautiful video of it with like a thousand times or something The fast lift. I think it's like such a great thing That'd be really funny. Oh, man. I that'd be so I'm just thinking about how obnoxious that would be if somebody like you have a stealth priest Just hops out of the shadows and just mind controls you and kills you You're like, yes, don't even be level 60. That'll be the best part make them like make her like level or him or her whatever Yeah, exactly. It's because it's so BM. It's so BM if you're not level 60 They don't know what happens they just see a well-played and they don't know there's someone stealth next It's my bait that'd be really good be really good. Yeah So what you you I think you told us this before we started the podcast You said you played both NA servers and EU servers like back in the day when we first are playing Yes, tell us about it. My father my father was doing business in America And he knew I played a shit ton of Warcraft 2 and 3 and stuff And I was really hyped for what wow and then he he bought me World of Warcraft in America and I had no idea that You know, there's different servers. I was just some stupid kid and so I go on a little then because it was dope so I go on that server and On launch so I was very happy to be there online an alliance or a little in US Yes, I made a night of warrior because they look like Illidan on the box. That was a lie by the way Anyway month like I'm way later I go to school and I meet this friend who plays wow And I'm like yo, I'm Illidan and he's like why the fuck you want a French server? What do you mean? It's not French server. It's No one speak first there and then I learned That that I was on the American service. So I re-bought the game And then I made my hunter. Yeah, there you go. How long did you play on a servers? I? Wouldn't know man. Yeah, you could probably calculate it like it was like Thanksgiving launch, right? Uh-huh, and then you get summer and then start of school here So that's quite a while, but I would just make like characters until level 20 and then make a new one all the time back then You know dude it cuz so wonder where I started playing I started playing illidan alliance US Yeah, so crazy thing that we might have possibly like actually like cross paths at some point like way back then and like We're not right. That would be dope. Yeah, that's crazy. Maybe I ninja looted your shit Yeah, you probably did actually maybe you're probably like you are well playing well You know what you might have done? You might have been a hunter trying to take a Paladin weapon away from me. I don't know why anybody would ever you know take a take it a weapon away from another class But I was wondering who killed that dog. I was dying to tame But um Yeah, so so you started playing there and then you went to the EU servers and when did you quit? Well? I I Put wow first when lunch Okay, because I was like not my wow quit them and I was actually the biggest beefy gill leader of my server on EU cat car during TBC and Then I was just I was annoyed at wrath Even though I know it's like considered popular and successful, but I was like I didn't like it And I thought it wasn't that bad it wasn't that bad Yeah, but I have I've always been like a bit of a perfectionist and I felt like the game was not going in a direction I wanted it to go with the flying and the portals and everything and Got mad at it, but I mean even during wrath I came back So I was obviously a missing it and I still enjoyed it That's actually when I switched to do our female so I consider it a success. There you go That's one of you made the transition. Yeah, yeah Yeah, so I go ahead tips. I was gonna say it's crazy how loved wrath is today But back in 2008 2009 people like especially towards ICC like People hated her at like during TOC trial the crusader that like I discovered private servers because of how much people hated I think what happened is that wow has always from day one just gradually got worse and But during classic a TVC it was still really good So it had it was get still gaining players And then during wrath naturally it had the most players because everything before that was super good, but You know, it just had the most players and that's why it's the most popular Even though, you know after and after that still Well kept getting worse so people remember it as the best however wasn't their memory because that's where they started That's what I think happened. I I totally agree if you look at the population chart Like it's you know, you've got a big population gain and then it peaks and wrath I think it goes up from like 12 to like 12 and a half in wrath. I think what happened was a lot of people Ended up quitting right a lot of people who had played in early vanilla burning crusade and I'm quoting like you and me We both quit like around the beginning of wrath And then there was so much hype around wow because it'd been this big game for like five years or so at that point And people are like, well, what's this game about? Right? So people start playing wow So you have a new player base coming in and it's almost like it's it's like churning the barrel Right, so people people are like falling out of the bottom and people being added to the top so you've got this case of the population might have gone up a little bit but in terms of like Player retention like maybe the retention wasn't quite there, right? I see the chat releasing about TVC I'd love to talk about that. Yeah, I feel like you guys talk probably talk about it a million times But this is new to me, but I feel like TVC it still carried all the great things from vanilla over You know that the value in professions and it was only the first time that there were 10 extra levels, you know so it wasn't that deluding the old stuff yet and I think TVC was great because it carried over all of vanilla's Greatness, but it also started seeding the shitty shit shitty things in you know like a flying man's portal cities this that's great idea and and the core concepts of adding 10 extra levels As an expansion that's not expansion. That's a that's a replacement. You know, you just make everything irrelevant, you know, so I think the core of Others things was a bad idea. Yeah, and but it was still a fun expansion. It was just where things started to go in the wrong direction Even though it was still fun. I Would rather play vanilla than TVC because it's like, yeah, I think a split I think with a lot of the the stuff with burning crusade versus classic the way I see it I think the end game of burning crusade Maybe was better. That's that's what I think maybe just a little bit. I like the end game like you have a reason to know and The rating scene was a little bit more They kind of tied me down a little bit. Yeah, a little bit more established. Yeah, that's a good way of putting it Yeah, I think a lot of the game Holistically right looking at it from start to finish I think classics the early game of it is is so good And then whatever burning crusade comes out that stuff kind of gets diminished, right? The problem is is if you when you have classic you have like a full complete great game and after that every Expansion they add something great and they add some shitty things and they they they don't they they keep all the shitty things they don't clean up after themselves, you know and But still on top of that I think adding levels every expansion was a bad idea Do you? Won't play runescape. Sorry, man. I didn't know because like I said, I got into wow when it came out and In my country Netherlands around that time is rare. It's the Cape Cape popular and I was like You know, was that free? You don't have that's being paying for you for monkey service Well, I was wow. Yeah, no, I didn't play runescape But I do hear a lot of people talk great about it, so, you know, I do think it must have been fun Yeah, it's funny. You know you talking about the whole like every 10 levels kind of invalidates content Runescape It's one of the best things runescape has ever done was always keeping content relevant and always having a very long Progression to like runescape. They didn't increase the level cap for like 15 years like that's what you do That is what you do. I think if we're looking at what are they gonna do with classic, you know Are they gonna expand on classic? My first vote would be like hell. No, please it isn't good enough to do that They would fuck it up But if I were to do it, I Would still add maybe the blood elves stuff like that. You can add that you can add that stuff It doesn't ruin the game. It doesn't make all the endgame irrelevant Exactly and like what runescape does is instead of just like adding only, you know max level content They also add a content within like certain level ranges. So in reality in runescape There isn't just like one, you know type of content to pursue one finish line There's a there's like dozens of different finish lines because if you don't if you don't like playing at max level You know, it's kind of like having a twink and wow But you can pk at like, you know 30 or something like that and there's so many different builds and every single level range has a different meta There's different items. There's different, you know, special attacks. There's different ways to play the game So it feels fresh on so many different levels. I think you'd like it a lot That's good. No, yeah, I liked that in wow that that I would just go into a better ground at level 30 and Enjoy the great weapons. I managed to find for that level, you know, take your time. That's what it's about and that that's I feel like the way in classic professions and all those things tied together Has never been repeated even a TBC, you know, things don't tie together as well and I Think you can't do that if you if you try to replace combat Mm-hmm. Yeah, TBC was close. I think I think with a lot of the mistakes they made with Mound stuff like that things You're cutting out again. Am I cutting out? Sorry. I think am I good? Yeah That's fine. You could also like fill the void. It's like your own words I think with a lot of the mistakes they made in TBC flying mounds other things like that I think that their intentions were still really good They just didn't really foresee the negative ramifications of those things like it's really easy to understand how you could think okay from a Development point of view flying mounds you can design new terrain There's gonna be cool caves up on top of mountains You can have floating islands and pray stuff like that floating dungeons But it's it's really easy to look at the cool positives of that and then overlook the negatives Right, and now now I think we're at a point where they're doing these things not out of ignorance I think they're just they've shifted their target demographic so much that they don't even care about When they're developing retail out, I genuinely don't think they're Considering our demographic. I think I think their priorities have shifted so much. Yeah, I Saw an interesting question in the chat someone asked me if I thought if I think Rina's was a mistake Well, I think a realtor very fun, of course, I think everyone thought they were fun But I do think they could have been better. I love game design and one of my opinions in game design is always that a Combat system is not enough like you need to offer something extra Which is why you know legal legends and don't I'd be You know that are right or you know, here's some to storm which is basically just that are right pretending to be low, but Yeah, come on system is not enough and and what I would have liked to see is maybe Better grounds for slightly less people like five or seven people better grounds banked rather than arena because Yeah, I think you should always offer a game mode Right for like for different types of players like people want to do small man content The thing is if you just have the combat system you master the chess piece, but then you don't get to play chess You know and if if you add the combat if you add a game mode you can infinitely Get better at it. Right. That's what you're saying Was it a race isn't one where in order to queue for is you actually had to go to the like there weren't arena masters in Chatrath or major towns you actually had to go to the To queue and so I remember there being and then maybe they added them in season two or season three I don't think it was like that in season one though I think you actually had to go to the actual Rena so I remember anyway I remember there being tons of PVP around the arena masters like in the in the grand arena Which was badass because you're PVPing out of the area If you die you might miss your cue and like it was a pain in the ass, but it was also like so cool also Well, it felt like I mean you're doing arenas, right? You're going for gladiator. It felt like bloodsport Like you know what I mean, and and that's like kind of going back to the concept of class fantasy I mean it's the same thing, right? It's just it's not class fantasy, but it's it's like it's RP, right? It's it's role-play like that's it's you're playing a role-playing game. That's what you want to see I think with I think the concept of like having more like small man content or just different types of content in general I think I think it's probably That's something that probably would have been cool. I think that it could get to the point like if you start doing too many If you start doing too many things right breaking it down too much then you end up Basically it's you divide the player base so much that there's like people who only want to queue for this or only want to queue For that and right being out as much now you're afraid it will like inflate the market with too much stuff. Yeah Yeah, what you want to do. Yeah, pretty much I Think it's cool. I think it's cool But like you'd have they'd have to find a way to like find a medium if there's if it's small enough queues, right? Let's say let's say they they had five they had five you five They had three be three in that two be two, but if they had like five man Like let's say a five man battleground or something as well on top of five you five Like that wouldn't be so bad on its own But it's a problem that is very occurring in games where they add to many game. It's like right now I've been playing some black ops for and they've got like a billion billion game modes and half of them You will never find a fucking game. I'm listening hardcore and and one thing that you could do against that Which I think it's pretty cool splatoon did it is You just put a schedule at this time you can do these two things at this time you could do these two things and then you can be and In my experience, it's less of a ah shit right now It's this game mode and I don't like that and in my experience is more like oh wow in health and our it's this Let's go for it. You know like more exciting Yeah, I think that is a fix you need to do if you choose to have a billion game modes like you have to maybe sometimes Schedule them a little bit legal legends does this too now with their with their like weird game modes. Have you seen this? Oh, yeah, they do mean just sometimes or for a special game. Oh, yeah, they have like a they have like a cycling I don't know what they call it, but like it'll be like Like ultimate rapid fire will be one where they'll go through and it's like like yeah 90% cool down reduction no mana cost and just it's like spurred mode, right? But that's like that's like yeah, that's like one game mode So like they they cycle through game modes where it's like this will be a game mode for like three or four days And then they'll put in another game mode and they just go through and through retail while actually does this too with the brawls I mean all I need is ultra valley But they first thing when Steve brought this up the first thing I thought of were the where they called Where they called the new like like ultra or fuck or at the highlands in dark shore What are those called the brawls? Yeah, no, no not brawls. They're not brawls Maybe there's one chat Warfronts warfronts. Yeah, and I actually freaking hate it. I hate it like if I want to do work I don't want to do work. I don't have to wait seven days to go do a warfront, you know I know that that is a bit crazy. The rotation should be if you have like three different things They rotate every hour. Oh You know super super fast transitions. Yeah, yes Yeah, so at least you can do it like that Like if they had done something to where it's like the like one day You have warfronts available in the morning and the next day they're available in the afternoon or afternoon or whatever in their rotates Yeah, I don't know. Yeah, I really haven't thought too much about that kind of stuff to be honest. I'm pretty I'm not completely but I'm fairly checked out of retail while right now I think I might get back into it a little bit whenever the new raid comes out because Well, this is a conversation. We were having stay safe is the The raid content in the game isn't necessarily something that's bad. You know, it's it's not like just yeah It's it's not necessarily bad, it's just you don't have it's everything else around it that makes it kind of like You know, I do I really want to do this. That's that's the problem They've stripped away all the incentives to rate Yeah, and it's just like you don't have you don't have your items you like the specific items that you want There's there's very few of them. I should say like it's the value we talked about. It's the same thing. Exactly Value in all of that stuff Exactly like in vanilla. Okay in vanilla. You have so many incentives to rate number one to see the content To actually see it that was taken away when LFR was put into the game because now you can see the content Whenever you want, you know, it's it's right there in front of you number two to get the best year All right, you can't even get the best gear and raids anymore because most of the stuff is in mythic plus number three To be able to get the coolest looking gear because back in vanilla most of the coolest looking items typically were the tier sets Yes, it's not all classes use tier sets But a lot of the best looking gear happened to be the best here in the game nowadays You have transmog so that gets rid of that incentive to I mean, there's like there's like no one's why would you rate? I mean even the story elements there used to be story elements and raids now the story elements are outside the rates So the only reason you should mythic raid is if you really really really like mythic raiding But then your love for mythic raiding has to be so great that you're willing to put up with all the crap and all the Commitment required to mythic raid for just that incentive, which just isn't enough. Yeah, absolutely right, I think for a lot of people just just the desire to be inside of a raid be inside that Go inside just look around and just to be in the raid is a huge motive Rest and get and get inside of it. I remember this is a burger stage story I was like so my guild ended up clearing all the black temple But when black people first came out I was I was like so eager to just get inside and my guild wasn't quite ready to go in I wanted to know what it looked like wait what what did the olden look like what were the bosses? What did they look like and there weren't really really many screenshots back then and then this is the Beginning era of YouTube. I found a video of a guy who did a full black Like 17 views he had a full black temple run and it was like sped up like 10 times It was like a two and a half hour run a full black temple And it was super fast and I would watch that video like every night because I was so fascinated by black temple I just want to look inside it. Yeah, I could pretend I was there I could and it would be when you did it. You were like, wow, we suck that guy did it It motivated me because I wanted to go in and see it right if I if I could have just queued LFR That like humans are lazy humans will take the path of least resistance I would have just done LFR and I would have I never would have done Normal or what heroic or mythic. You know what I mean? Yeah Yeah, and like even like I just mentioned the story and that made me think about Something from the story in BFA. I don't know. Can we talk about the story from lunch BFA is that or is that? That's not spoiler anymore, right? I mean, yeah, it's fine. I go I think it's fine, right? I gave the call out guys. This is from lounge ish Yeah, I did that quest where you save Jaina who's on the fucking island So you take her fucking mom and you go to the island, right? Yeah, and after all this effort I find Jaina and She that supports us out Yeah, I Was very upset about that. Yeah, it's like wait a second. How come you can't just pour I Mean I think it's To me I I've got it like I've I've lost I think whatever your criticism Criticism can come from criticism criticism can come from multiple places. I'm like I lost my voice So I'm kind of struggling a little bit But criticism can come from multiple places and there's two types, right? There's criticisms criticism that comes from being a hater, right? And there's criticism that comes from like, you know wanting the game to be good right being passionate about any subject, so That's something that I think a lot of times people people are the hard time both differentiating between the two from the standpoint of critique and sometimes differentiating between the two From somebody who's you know watching or listening or whatever From the audience perspective, I think that for me, I've kind of lost that a little bit a lot like I'm I'm I'm not checked into the story of BFA so much. I I'm kind of just like whatever I do it. I play it like, you know for gameplay Omega Lowell. Yeah But that's the thing like I only like arenas pretty much and and I'm not I'm not in a raiding guild Like I said, I'll probably I'll probably kick around the new raid a little bit whenever it comes out You know, it'll be fun for maybe a few weeks, but I like to do arenas. That's like the main thing I like to do in retail while but As far as like the story goes like whenever there's something that happens that like may seem kind of stupid I'm just kind of like well whatever, you know, but yeah, it's it's just because I've I've lost kind of like the Passion for right. I lost the passion for like following the story like what happens. Yeah, but like like burning crusade on the other hand like I I Didn't play Warcraft 3. I didn't play through Warcraft 3 before Wow But I I knew a lot of the characters, right? I knew who Illidan was. I knew who Kale Thos was I I knew I Knew some of like the actually did I I knew a little bit about like Lady Vos and stuff But I didn't know so much about it. I knew but I knew I knew a lot more about illidan stuff I mean I picked illidan server. So in burning crusade Versus classic classic had like rag and nepharion and Yes, and Cthun and eventually Kelthuzad I guess Kelthuzad would have been the only boss that from as far as I know from what I've played Can I say something about that I really like how in vanilla the story there is no fucking story it's like this is the world and these are us that are just in the world and That's why it's a rule and I don't like how after that the force is like story every expansion like Instead of just accepting that it's a rule for a lot of shit, right? Well, like the story is there But like the story is like This story like started in wow like it's like stuff that people are piecing together like it's almost like a Prelude a little bit in some sense, right? Like one of your time old gods and stuff like that because that's not something that really happened in Warcraft 3, right? But then one of you get to burning crusade and it's like now you're fighting Kale thoughts and Lady Vashh and Vashh or whatever you pronounce it and Then you get to Illidan like that's just like the most badass thing in the world, right? And then eventually like it kind of comes to a head one of you kill Arthas in ICC And that's why for a lot of people like a lot of people feel like a Lot of people feel like the game ended for them at the end of wrath because at the end of the original trilogy You've killed like a lot of the major bosses inside the Warcraft games and Then at that point it's just kind of like okay now it feels like they're just kind of like making up the story from now on That's how a lot of people feel. Yeah, it feels like then fan art fan. Then what's it called? Yeah, fiction. Yeah that fiction. Yeah, no, and I totally agree with you Siv like I feel like in vanilla there was lore, but no story And then basically you had you have the world you had all the characters you had small stories in every single zone Every single village every single area. Yeah, there was no primary narrative that overshadowed your own story Yeah, and that makes it feel like this big free MMO Where you just whatever you want to be better than oh, you have to go save Jaina like I don't want to save Jaina. I just don't want to She can teleport out anyway, Beverly Yeah, do you uh, what do you think would be a better solution? Uh Because I do think this like at a certain point they are going to have to make up story right unless they come out with warcraft 4 You know and then I don't think they're going to do a warcraft 4 before world of warcraft is over because if they want to have A different storyline in the warcraft games in the world of warcraft games It doesn't make any sense right because the whole point of world of warcraft was to like carry on the storyline of the warcraft games Yeah No, I think uh with story it's like When we went from warcraft 2 to warcraft 3 they made up new shit Right they made up new bosses. They made up new stuff and that's exciting And I think that's just what they should have kept doing like give me something new Don't I don't want to kill gul'd on again. I want to I want to like see some new shit like something I've never heard of like some crazy new boss Okay, I don't know. I don't know if they just have worse writers or I'm not gonna Attribute to that I'm gonna say that I think mmo's are just an objectively worse medium to tell a story than an rts I think rts's are very very good ways to tell stories and it's hard It's hard to have a good story and it's not right properly, but the character is in an mmo Maybe it's more that it was a single player game, right? You're playing characters in a story and in a mo you're not doing that Exactly and like in an mmo the whole idea of getting an mmo is to prolong the content make the content long You have various patches over three six months period etc Imagine going to watch a movie And you watch 30 minutes of the movie and then you got to leave for six months and then come back watch the next 36 You know 30 minutes of the movie and then you get adventures Yeah, like you know what I mean, but like Like imagine having a story split up so much That like there's just no means of being able to see the whole thing And not only just over time but also split up across different zones What if you don't finish the story in zone a all of a sudden the story in zone b doesn't make sense And stuff like that. It just there's no There's no consistency and I think like like Stacy said mmo's horrible horrible horrible Uh type of game to to center a story around. Yeah, just don't force the story, right? Exactly Exactly Yeah, it needs to be a rural of warcraft Hey real quick just to interject Guys, we are gonna do like q&a a little bit after this Like towards towards the end of the podcast We're going to do q&a if you guys want to tweet at us with hashtag classic ass That's that's usually the first thing we look at is is twitter You know tweeted sfand at tips out bay s fan tv. Sorry. I don't even know my own name tips out baby Civ hd tweets or stay safe warlock and then put hashtag classic ass on it. That's what I'll be searching for And I'll go through and I'll look at some of the questions there and then we'll also pick out some We'll pick out some questions for chat if you guys have any questions for sieve or anything like that Not right away, but but here in a few minutes if you guys want to go ahead and start thinking of some questions or Or just kind of getting prepared for it. I guess so I just want to go ahead and let you guys know Also, if you guys haven't followed Tips out baby stay safe tv and sieve hd on twitch and youtube as well And that's my tv. Yes, and myself and myself as well. Thank you. Thank you So yeah, if you guys haven't done that yet, uh, we we would all appreciate if you guys, uh, if you guys do that so So, um with uh Well, I kind of going back and talking more about like the design of the game and story telling circle joking more about classic Yeah, let's just yeah, let's just keep doing that. This is great Well, actually no, like let's more specifically kind of talking about like the the medium of an rts versus a uh versus an mmo A lot of times i'm around playing an rts. It's like, uh I feel like You know, they have the cutscenes in between it's kind of like this is happening. You're watching this either It's like a like a game cutscene or like a cinematic or whatever It feels like a Rts means real-time strategy. I think maybe a lot of younger people don't know what rts is The young folks not a popular rts in a long time. They're actually real-time strategy warcraft 2 warcraft 3 starcraft Anyway, it's all right. It's all night from above Yeah, yeah Yeah, it's like forever above exactly so with an rts you It's almost like you're reading a book or really I guess more like watching a movie And then all of a sudden like the movie is put on pause and then it's like, okay. Now you now you play this part out And I think it's very like as far as like a personal investment like getting emotionally invested into a game Uh and understanding the story that the uh the game wants to try to convey to you I just think it's really really effective I would say that From a storytelling perspective. It's it's probably one of the better mediums Just in general I agree. Yeah, rather than you know playing as your own avatar you're playing as the heroes of the game or command And you know armies of an empire in the game That's much more effective at getting getting a story across than Sort of playing playing as a hero or an adventurer and taking part in these epic things I think rts's are just way better for it. Yeah, this might this might be a little bit off topic I it's not that off topic, but I I personally really hate playing story games Which is why I like wow I hate when there's a story because when there's a story, especially if it's linear I feel forced to keep playing. I feel like I get anxious like I want to know what happens And if I'm watching a movie, I can't do anything about it. So I just go watch you sit there and what happened to you Yeah, but when I'm playing games like I gotta make it happen. So I hate that I really avoid story games, you know, that's why I didn't buy like gold of war all those games I'll get anxious to rush through it. I don't know if a lot of people have that But uh, you want to know it's weird man I I agree. I I've I've I don't know if you've done this I've watched a lot of youtube videos explaining lore for games that have never even played The other day I listened like eight hours of warhammer 40k lore. I've never played warhammer. I don't never play I don't know I'd rather watch a video. I've had somebody already played it to me than play it myself. Okay, I don't feel so weird anymore now I never played halo 4 dude. Never played halo 4. Just watch those two grand pranking youtube For me, it's just easier For me, I uh, I think a lot of people were like this a lot of people who played wow or A lot of people who played why growing up pretty much played wow Like they didn't really play a whole lot of other games because they spent so much of their time Just running around and wow and doing wow things That's what the case was for me before it dark edged came a lot afterwards. It was legal legends That's that's basically what I did So like now going back through and like, you know, like doing the dark souls Right doing doing the dark souls games and doing like story games now I kind of i'm trying to like get that out of the way because I had like friends in school Who like they all played mass effect and bio shock and skyrim and this and that and I like, you know, I was the big gamer But I didn't play any of the games that they played, you know, like I was known for being like a big gamer And then all of a sudden like I didn't play the games that everybody else was playing. So Um, I kind of i'm taking the time to go back through and get to play all that and I saw someone ask about like dark souls Like if I would feel the same about dark souls But now like I consider dark souls like a very difficult arcade game, you know what I mean? Like it's a challenge after challenge after challenge And I don't think anyone cares about story in dark souls, right? Like that's not what you're playing for that's just like background environment I think I think about dark souls like the story is there and there's people that care about the story But it's not like it's not like forced on you It's like if you really want the story like you can go figure it out or you can kind of piece it together, right? But as far as like I think you saying if it like you explaining it as in Like it's basically like an arcade game like a really like fleshed out arcade game It is kind of like that because it's very action-based Yeah, so it's like vanilla dude the story there is some story out there their stories But unless you know, you don't have to go out and seek it and the great thing about that is It allows you to fill in the gaps of the story with your own idea of the story Like dark souls. There's a really popular dark souls youtuber out there named like Vaughty video or something like that. He does like all of the dark souls youtube lore stories The thing about him though Is that he he actually like inserts some of his own theories into the story itself And he just takes bits and pieces of the story that he sees and he kind of fills in the gaps on his own Which makes it so interesting But if you watch him versus another dark souls lore youtuber, you'll notice the story is a little bit different between them Because it's a very effective way of storytelling They've only put some bits and pieces of the lore in the games And then it's up to you to kind of figure out what the rest of the world is all about That's personally what I like like if if if the lore for me needs to be nothing more than background environment to make me feel cozy like shit's going on And uh, I understand for a lot of people deep lore and story is important And I don't mind if it's there for them. Just don't don't make me read it Like just let me see it on the background as I go on the other direction Yeah Yeah, and it's just like different different types of games for different types of people I think that's kind of the reason why I think dark souls is uh For for somebody who's streaming wow I think dark souls is a very natural transition into doing kind of more variety games and whatnot because it's very action based and it's still an rpg because a lot of rpgs are more story based and Like if you're if you're that type of player who's like more into like the action and stuff It might be like a smoother transition going from like wow to dark souls to then playing some of the rpgs and stuff on stream Because I personally like I enjoy rpgs, but I'm also very big people know this from watching my stream I'm very add and like I just like I can't keep my eyes off the chat. I'm always looking at it But I I think that's I I just think dark souls is an easy thing because if something's going on there's a cinematic or something I always immediately turn around and I'm looking at the chat and then I miss something that happened on the screen I'm like oh crap, you know So I think playing dark souls first is kind of like a something that you kind of naturally get more used to like oh I have to pay attention here so I think uh, I thought this stream was about our classic man Well, that's that's the thing kind of like we'll go into all kinds of stuff right like talking about uh talking about like old gaming and stuff Right, but uh, I'm not familiar with what tips and stay safe, uh main like what classes did you play? In vanilla Yeah I play a warrior, but back in original vanilla. My main was an undead warlock warlock, right undead warlock Yeah, that's a bit edgy, man. Okay The first character I ever made in vanilla wow, this is back in november, whatever 2005 2004. Um Was it was a night elf rogue? I made a male night elf rogue with like a sick pointed hair And I got dueled a little 10 and I thought it was badass and then I got like a 12 And I was like, okay, this is stupid because I was 11. So I was like, yes, but that's what everyone does Yeah, or Exactly I had to just go be a night elf and stab stuff and then I and then I made a no mage I made a name no mage. Yeah, but now I play warlock. I'm a warlock gamer now I feel like the horde I feel like the horde like like on alliance all the races were represented like people play all for the races and on horde Maybe I shouldn't be rude Maybe I should I feel like It's my opinion. Don't hate us for this. I feel like horde in back in vanilla. So not anymore now Okay, but back in vanilla. I felt like orcs were all neckbeards And then undead was like the edgy kids at school. True. Okay, and then Trolls didn't exist and then torrents level until level 20 and then switch to alliance Right. No, that's true. 100 percent. That's that's how I feel about horde in vanilla. Like it's true. Actually Yeah No, yeah, we'll do it. It's like, of course all the all the neckbeards are gonna play work because of the the best horde race Do you get the stun resists? You're good to go True I don't know how many people when they're making their first minute look 2004 2005 how many of them are like, hmm, this racial does this and this is 20 percent It's under resistance like how many and oh this frost resistance is going to benefit me here Like I doubt people did people care about that? I was just too young to even know It was like this horde was the cool faction alliance for the kitties. That's what I remember back in the day No, here's what I here's what I remember. That sounds like something edgy kids would say that's cool I remember Literally everybody who played alliance said that everybody who plays alliance is kids And all the horde has like the the you know the adults the mature people And then I I went and I was like playing on the horde server for a little bit and everybody on the horde side Well, all the kids want to play horde and all the adults are playing alliance like this Like there's you know, they're they're adults, right? They want to call up duty effect, right? Where they can't start playing call of duty and the adults start playing the cute games Yeah, well, it just makes sense like it's it's just like I feel like each side thinks that all the kids are playing on their side It's like well at the end of the day, maybe just everybody sucks At the end of the day, I know what side I want to be on in altruc valley. I want to be on the side with the ball and neck bridge That's all I care about The same thing is true with bg's it's been like this like every bg ever been in uq a random bg Uh, you're on alliance and everyone in the bg's like oh man horde wins all the bg's You got in your horde all to play horde bg. Oh man, the alliance always wins the bg's horde can't win the bg But I feel like Didn't alliance been more av in vanilla? They must have Or at least we make them fight for it longer with that bridge The bridge was nice, dude. I had so much fun on that bridge, man. I like so back in the day Um Drakov and I were playing together like back in retail vanilla at one point and we had the like the hard pecs no balls or whatever And what we oh, yeah, and you just throw people off the bridge with that post up Yeah, we would post up with our back against the post So if they try to hit us we'd be fine and then yeah sling it at them and then just knock them off, dude It was the most fun thing around Yeah, the snowball patch. That was great It was a good christmas. Like it was like two weeks straight. It was like christmas break. We just that's like all we did Non-stop snowball bridging Man, I also liked the way you wear the minecraft ball hat And then you make a horde your pet and then you stand next to the boss and wait for it to expire That was great. Yeah Oh, man. It's good times Um Also, this is a bit more sinister. I've had people mind control. I have been this can happen So tilting you can be so if the horde is graveyard camping the alliance like if you're just getting stomped When you rez you can be mind controlled and ran out of the instance portal and you get deserter out of the battleground Because it's awesome graveyard is so close to the portal. I need to put that on my list for the night of priest Yeah, you should do that for your video. Yeah Of course So here let's uh, is there anything you guys want to touch on before we go into q&a a little bit Let's go into q&a. He's like q&a it up. Okay um So this is good, uh, what are your thoughts this is from galneros What are your thoughts on hybrid classes to jordan shaman's being forced into healing for dungeons and raids? Uh, respect can gets pretty expensive any suggestions on how this can be avoided or possibly fixed and uh, I I guess I mean everybody has experience with this, but I probably have the most experience like given that I played a paladin um I think that You're not necessarily forced into a healing role as a hybrid class. Uh, but all the healers Uh, well healing okay healing is something that's very valuable, right? Like you need you need a certain amount of healers for every raid So whenever you have other classes that can do more damage than you and you can do Healing that's just fine. Like you'll see you'll generally see that like a lot of the hybrids are playing healers Like you can bring You can bring an off spec. You can bring a hybrid dps spec and it's fine. It works You can clear the content with it But you're not necessarily forced out of it You just have to find a guild that will allow you to go and play the spec that way like for me Like I play a ret paladin um As far as respecting goes like if you want to play ret out of raids or like you said druids or shamans Let's see. Let's say you want to play an enhanced shaman out of raid and then in raid you have to play resto Uh Playing a hybrid class like that does get very expensive. Like that's just that's just the nature of it um, but in reality A lot of people who are doing pve and pvp are Respecking every week twice a week like you're you're specking a special spec for your raid you're specking a special spec for uh, or a specific spec for pvp and um That's just the way it is. That's fine. I missed the first sentence of the question Oh, is that something about healing or hybrid? Yeah Yeah, basically what are your thoughts on hybrid classes such as druids and shamans being forced into healing in dungeons and raids So like you don't you're not necessarily forced, but it's it's the path of least resistance. That's what it is I mean, you don't have to do it. Yeah, but it's but it's gonna be it's gonna be easier for you to find groups if that's what you're If that's what you're doing if you're healing it's always if you're a tank It's gonna be easy for you to find a group. That's just the nature of it. Yeah Oh, my mic is muted. Sorry. I was gonna say when I when I think of forest I think of something like I think a gun to your head and saying you have to buy holy cow like that's not gonna happen Obviously, you you can't you know if you're playing a suboptimal spec You can't expect everyone to just want to bring you along it depends on who you're playing with If you're playing with more elitist hardcore gamers They're not gonna want to have seven resto druids. They're not gonna want to have three shadow priests They might not want to even have a red paladin. That's just the way it goes If you're with more low-key casual gamers, you can probably let it slide it all depends on who you play with exactly I agree right I think um So so this is the thing that I kind of like had There's like a weird dichotomy there because I'm I'm pretty good at the game And I had this I had this thing where it's like I want to play a red paladin And I and I would make friends with like a lot of a lot of good players and I'm the type of player that would you know fit well in that rate environment if that's what I'm doing But whenever I play a ret paladin The way I play the game is not conducive to what they want to do. It doesn't it doesn't really it doesn't really add up so That's why like, uh, you know, I had to earn my way like whenever I started playing red I didn't stream at the time. I didn't make videos at the time I started making videos actually like after I hit level 64 a little bit To kind of be like well, this is how you dps is red. This is how you do this and then eventually I started streaming once I once I got into a raid Um, but it's it's definitely not something that's easy. Like you you definitely have to like earn your way I think um, sometimes I mention Like that that are like classic and then sometimes someone will throw at me the Well classic sucks because it wasn't balanced and it's like I think wow was never balanced and also it doesn't Necessarily ruin the game It doesn't even have to be that bad if if someone has to pull more rate like you said in a dungeon that doesn't ruin the game You know, you just I agree. I think what's more important than perfect balance is fun factor I mean imagine the most balanced game of all time You would only have one class because everyone would be exactly the same. You mean retail It's getting it's getting there everyone's so homogenous But imagine a game with only one class and everyone is exactly the same as the same toolkit It would be perfectly balanced. Yeah, but that's that's what I think about retail if you're bored, right? It's just not fun Wow has never been balanced. The only way it has ever become more balanced Like improved is by making classes more the same That's the only only way they've ever done that and even now 15 years later 15 years later It's still not balanced. Like yeah, that was something like we were getting those polls What would you be open to for change in classic? You know, and one of them was like would you be open to us for making it more balanced? And it's like this thing where everyone is like obviously yes, but You don't know how to do that. You've never fucking done that. So like like it's such a dumb question Like they wouldn't know how to balance it. So Well, I would say I'm not do that to me. It's kind of like You you have to make a decision, right? And it's like do you want to have everything perfectly balanced? Or do you want it to be cool? Because to me like everything being perfectly balanced is just boring Like there's some things that are just like, okay, like this is this is cool, right? You know, there's somebody has this Like everybody has something that in some way shape or form is like kind of overpowered whatever I think when you hit a point where it's like, okay, this is just like absolutely broken And that's a real problem But I don't feel like that's the case in vanilla. Wow Like certain classes and certain specs are doing it's better at doing specific things and that's fine Like that's that's what's cool about it. That's the that's the class fantasy and everything else that kind of gets Kind of everyone is really different I don't want to get their time to shine and the moment you start to divert from that You get into this icky zone where everything is kind of different but not quite balanced And that's when people are going to start switching classes, right? I mean you look at like you look at like high-end arena In uh in bfa right now and it's like, oh, I play I play a healer I play a dps or I play like I play caster or play melee and it's like They'll have like five different class like they'll have five different characters that they play and they just like rotate based on Whatever comps they're saying or whatever like that I don't I don't know. I think that uh If you're talking about it from like a competitive gameplay standpoint and It's what type of game do you want to have? Is what it comes down to because wow has done things and a lot of people said this they think that In missa pandaria and cataclysm that the class design was really good. I did not like that I did not like cataclysm I really like whenever they started to change from what the game originally was as far as how they designed the classes It got super boring to me. They stopped designing the game. They stopped. They stopped having classes They started having specs, right? You you were a retribution paladin. You had a specific Skill set based on what it's like you said before in in classic. You don't play a spec you play a class You play a class. Exactly. So You You had this thing a lot of people say that it was actually really good And it might have been from a competitive standpoint like if you were doing high end arenas or stuff like that I'm sure it actually probably was pretty good because that's how they kind of were tooling the game probably because Uh in the early days of arena and through wrath like bc and wrath Like they had mlg and all this stuff and and wow was like really really popular at that time And then it started to kind of die off So they surely they probably were trying to capitalize on that and she's like, okay Well, let's make this the focus of the game But what the problem is is that that's not what an mmorpg is necessarily and And it's just a divert from from what the game originally was and then that's when we started to have the fallout I think and I think even when I was playing vanilla as a hunter It's not like I always felt like wow, I sure picked the strongest fucking class You know, it's not like I always felt that way some mean I was also a kid So You know, maybe I would be wrong Maybe sometimes I feel like wow those guys are OP But that wouldn't do it in a game for me because If guys in next gear are stronger than me too, you know, you don't always have to be the strongest You can just fill your place in the world and and and make the best out of it. You know exactly and like Be an e-sport or be an rpg kind of like what he says and just pick one e-sport or rpg You can't have both right. They're so counter. They're so counterproductive to one another They're so antithetical to one another pick what To go on that. It's a bit like if you go and play D&D You don't not everyone is going to be like, oh, what is the strongest hero? That's what I want to be in D&D You know one guy is going to want to be barred that just sinks all the time You know, and it doesn't have to be uh equally strong. It could just be fun Yeah, and there's actually something really interesting about like trying to find weak classes and trying to mess around with them And customize them to make them better You know like there's something special about like theory crafting the underdog and trying to find okay You know what items are available to me? What items can I mix and match? How can I mix and match my spec to make it better? You know some people like playing weaker classes and making them better kind of like the gentleman on top of me Like yeah, think about rep palette and like, you know, it's not the strongest class in the game But I'm sure you get a lot of satisfaction like out of like theory crafting finding out Which items and stuff to do to make it better, right? Mm-hmm Yeah, I mean like it's like I play like I play kale in league of legends and she's like considered totally out of meta and Like not very good. I mean, that's just that's how I like to play games I like to I like to make things that are not supposed to be good good Or at least like make them work. I should say that's the best That that's that's when you start playing with the game instead of playing the game and that's when you have the most fun Yeah, exactly. I think um I think uh I totally lost my turn of thought dude. I don't know what just happened. That was weird Um, we've been going a long time on the same question. Maybe yeah, yeah, maybe let's just go ahead and move on if it's important I'll I'll remember um This kind of touches on this is another tweet guys by the way if you have any questions, uh tweet us hashtag classic cast And I'll and I'll be looking at those. Um What do you think will be the most surprising thing in retail classic for someone who has only ever played vanilla private servers retail So the biggest I guess the biggest difference between retail class and private servers That's a really good question I think uh, you'll you'll feel happy about your items more because it's more permanent You know, everything you do is more permanent. So it should be very similar. I don't think someone who played Uh, private servers will be very surprised by anything. It's just, you know, generally It'll feel better because there's no deadline to your character. I think uh I think permanence is going to be a really really good thing um Because you never really know with a private server like, you know servers get hijacked and shut down and A new fresh server comes out and then your server just dies kind of like it's it's just a whole thing But um and one thing will be that there's content creators right now We aren't literally not allowed to make anything about what plastic and they're being content creators They're being a subreddit where every day there's just fun shit for you to browse through with great videos and stream moments That's a huge bonus. I think that is super fun Yeah, I think I think people who who enjoy like consuming content are really going to enjoy that right because like there's people that want like Classic well content. There's people Like myself in the past who have streamed like stream or make videos of like private server stuff but at the end of the day whenever your Whenever you're a streamer or you know your youtuber or whatever you are any sort of content creator The the end goal is not the end goal But the the goal is to make content that people are watching right you want people to enjoy your content If people are enjoying your content That means you're getting a lot of views right because people are watching it and if you get too many views Then your channel grows too much and then people will see Your I mean blizzard will see it and you'll get dmca because they legally it's it's it's like a legal thing Right. It's copyright. So yes, it's it's antithetical to actually growing like like streaming and doing that kind of stuff is antithetical to actually like Doing things the right way like as far as like being like a youtuber content creator and like growing your channel and stuff like that Unfortunately Now I I mean obviously like I grew and I did all that stuff and that's how I started and it was a lot of fun But that's why I had to stop is because I got banned and once I got banned it was like, okay Well the jig is up, right? Um, yeah, I guess to bring it back to the question like yeah, this is a personal thing I I I'm really eager and classic. Wow to sort of go completionist mode. I've never leveled fishing I've never leveled cooking. I want to do both those things. I want to grind every rep to exalted I want to try to get every mount. I like And I'd never had any motivation I'd never had any motivation to decide to do that on a private server because I knew That's the time and at any moment. It's gone. Yeah It's the permanence the permanence like I spawned in Now I will say this and again, it's like the same thing that I've been talking about before with With with the face content release. I think four phases of content releases is really It's really not good. I mean, I think that I don't think it's not it's not something to where it's like, oh, well, I'm not I'm stubborn I'm not going to play at all because that no, I mean for me because like I'm that's what I want to do Like that's like I'm still going to give it like a fair shot, right? Obviously As a player and then as a streamer content creator like that's what I do like my whole channel is based on classic So I want to I'm going to do that But uh as far as like my that doesn't like I'm not at ease about how that's going to be for the game If they go through with that, I think it needs to be at least six, right? They need to at least do six phases because original vanilla was 11 patches and then They're saying four and they're going to package all the content together It's it's I don't know to me to me I feel like the hardcore players are going to come in and smoke everything because they already know everything They don't come in they're going to get so far ahead of everybody else And it's going to it's going to hurt like the more casual or like the newer players who don't know everything Who they're you know, so to to explain to me or people in the chat maybe What will be a reason to need more phases than there are big rates because I can see why you need phases for big rates, of course Right Why would you need more than and just like the the the the four rates are so there are there are world bosses and dungeons that are added um That were initially in vanilla not added with the big raid patches that sort of trivialized previous raid content For example dire mall coming out After molten core dire mall gear is often as better than molten core gear So if you have dire mall out at the same time that molten core is out at launch Then your lesson set device to go get one core gear I didn't know dire mall was better than molten core. Well, some pieces right some some pieces are better Like there's some more like spell damage gear and then molten core gets a gets an update and like how the items are in the 1.5 patch But like they they need to spread this out a little bit because like for example dire mall Uh adding in some things that makes molten core inadvertently a little bit easier zg the same way with blackwing lair um And I mean you have emerald dragons now emerald dragons they Now you did like doing world bosses. I think back in the day was kind of more like a um Like you go do the world bosses you do the thing now it's like everybody knows like oh well this world boss drops Like all this nr gear if we're a high end raiding guild We want to go in we want to get the world boss kills on the on the emerald dragons So we can get nature is this gear for our tanks and for for our soakers for whoever else Going into aq 40 right so that you're you're more you want that patch release for every time you feel like There's a big change in the meta like big change in what is the best gear And you feel like that's more effective than they're announcing now. I I don't think I don't think that it has to be exactly done Uh like like patch by patch Uh now I don't think it has to be done that way. That's like my own personal preference It's doing patch by patch how private servers do it like you mentioned like you know like back on like on lights hope right It's it's packaged. They do face content release, right? I think they do like eight or nine phases Right, so they've taken patches and package them together Uh, I don't think that's like a foreign idea, but I think four is just way too few Whether or not they actually change their mind on this they said this is something that's still on the table Whether or not they actually change their mind on this or not Uh, I don't know But maybe I hope they do. I hope I hope Right until they get the feedback. Yeah, I really hope they change it really I guess Because it just doesn't seem like a very good idea to me I think if you go through a cycle of classic and then all of a sudden see like Okay, well all these guys are coming in and they're just like smoking everybody right away Instead of having like a natural like a natural progression instead of just boom big content blocks people will get bored Right people will get bored because who knows how long it's going to be before the next phase. Maybe like six months I don't know People will be frustrated because they feel like they're getting burned out. They're getting left in the dust and there's people that Uh, the people that are getting bored are probably going to be the high-end players who are just like, yeah I just did everything real fast You know It's not it's not quite the same as time gating the content. It's uh Because somebody might like you that's like making some room for people to get stuff. Well, well it makes some room, but also it uh You're spreading it out better as opposed to like Time because what's happening now is it's essentially time gated, right? They're putting out a big chunk, but then it's time. Get it for a long time. Well, let's just take this After the cycle, what would you like to see after two years? Uh, I think they should make servers and burn increase or new new stuff or repeat I think they should just do fresh. They should do fresh and then and then do burning crusade Yeah, they should do fresh and burning crusade and I think my kind of old team Give me just a new server every two years and I'll happily play it on repeat. Yeah, I think uh Well, I mean check this out So right now they do retail wow expansions every two years and if they release classic wow this summer They'll have a staggered classic. Wow retail. Wow classic. Wow retail. Wow classic. Wow So they're gonna have I think that's what they're going for they want to have a really like there's going to be Another big wow thing either classic classic tpc or retail expansion What every year I think I think yeah, I think there's a huge push for tpc And that makes it a bit interesting because if they go for tpc, well, then you're gonna make a raft And you know, then you're on that roller coaster of spreading out the players and that might not be a great idea Yeah, so I wonder what they're gonna do. I think the ideal situation is we get Expansions that are based on vanilla, but I also think we all know because you can't do that. So You know, they would mess it up Yeah How to play vanilla on repeat Which isn't so bad, right? I mean, there's so much content in vanilla And it's the experience very so much from class to class It's a very long board game and it's okay to play a board game twice Exactly. I like that. Oh, yeah, and I mean, that's a great analogy with board games It's often not so much about the game as it is who you're playing with Every time you replay classic now, you make new friends. You're in a new guild. You're different That's that's what class was all about. It's about the personal change server change class even Yep Yeah Change faction so it goes forward That's that's okay. That's disgusting dude. Come on. Come on We talked about this before the stream. I have like the same alliance flag as Uh Stay safe. Mm-hmm. That's that one. Yeah Prop again, it's the most to own Prop, the worst one I hid behind there There but you can't see it All I have is like Art chicken Are you an artist? Is someone asked? I'm curious also No, you you just fluked out, but I guess you're at I get the question Um So in two I I'm from I'm not from Taiwan. I was in Taiwan And I just bought a house here And I get the key to my new house in two days. So right now in my parents house and this is my mom's studio And she makes all kinds of art. So she makes great paintings And uh, like look at this. This is cute as fuck, dude Oh, yeah, that's pretty cool, man. Yeah. Anyways, she makes all kinds of stuff Yeah, the chicken is kind of weird But you know, he's living it up. Yeah So this is uh, we'll take a few more questions. Uh, we'll take a few more questions um We'll take some questions from twitch chat as well here in a second But uh, one more question. I have never played wow in my entire life. This is from, uh, this is from akin I've never played wow in my entire life and I know nothing about it Do you think it would be a good opportunity to start when classic comes out? Do you think new players would be so behind and uh, lame compared to experienced veterans, um Absolutely. No. Yeah, I think you're gonna be fine, dude Everybody in every game that you ever play like everybody starts new for the first time and I think playing classic, uh Like everybody's the best time ever to start. Yeah, like it's the best wow has ever been so Yeah, easy getting in at the right moment. I disagree. Listen, man if you didn't get rank 14 on every class And a clear next ramus on the friends and family 2002 invite only vanilla one alpha Then you shouldn't even play classic. Wow. You're just gonna stay the fuck away from my server You're not gonna In all in all reality, uh, you're gonna be just fine, dude There there's gonna be a ton of people who are noobs, right? Like everybody was a noob at some point like You know, it's just that's just life, right? So you gotta you gotta start at some point I think playing classic would be totally fine And that's just like a general thing for like any any game that you're playing, right? I think any game if you want to go in and you want to play a game then Go in try it and see if you'll have fun Uh in everything that you do Yeah 99.999 percent of the time There's gonna be somebody who's better at you I just saw a really red Common better than you. I guess just how it's gonna come in in a chat just said in vanilla There was a huge non 60 player base and that's true Like in retail now if you if you're new you have to get max level and that's when the game starts And and five minute later it ends that but that's a different problem But uh in vanilla leveling is relevant gameplay You know, it's rewarding relevant gameplay that you can enjoy and most vanilla players Never got to 60 and even most 60 players didn't rate, you know, it's it's not It's very much less elitist than Then retail where people start comparing their mythic plus the sizes Well, here's here's the problem with it, right? So you have you have two two camps The actual gameplay and how the gameplay ends out. I say definitely is like less elitist but as far as a lot of the content And uh atmosphere around classic wow that comes out is that oh like it's a super hardcore game and like You have to do this you have to speed level you and let's like dude stop trying to like like Whenever people say stuff like this, it's like you're you're you're misguiding them You're you're telling them things that aren't necessarily true and it's gonna like It makes people think that the game has to be played a specific way when when that's not the case Play the game how you want to play it and that's what's so great about vanilla And it's kind of like what we talked about earlier is like comparing like bc was very like end game and all the expansions are like this a very end game focused, but uh World of warcraft vanilla was about world of warcraft was about the world, right? So from start to finish and it's a very uh I would say it's a very fulfilling experience from start to finish I think wow is rewarding when you're happy with your loot and then you go fuck people up with it Right and in retail you can only do that at max level, but we thought it's like we said in In classic you don't need to wait with that you can just do it right away You at level 30 you can be happy about the things you find You're gonna have it for a long time and then you can go fuck people up with it that that's the story That's what you want You don't need to be max level to to enjoy What there is to enjoy Exactly, I think so too. Okay, we can uh, let's take a few questions from the chat and uh And then we can we can wrap it up once we're uh once we're done with the stream. I'm gonna continue streaming. I'll uh I'll probably play a little bit more dark souls here Once we're done, of course again guys if you haven't followed Tips out stay safe tv sieve hd all their handles are uh I'm right on the screen and myself as well. Yes Yeah, so um questions from the chat, um How do you think server population will be across the faction? This is from exorcist considering the racials are a big part of grinding. Are we going to see more alliance than horde? for example, uh I don't think I don't think there's a big population imbalance uh as far as I don't I don't foresee there being a big population balance as far as uh Horde versus alliance goes and didn't allow Typically as extremes it gets is maybe like a 60 40 split. That's pretty common alliance Yeah, we have a couple more people a couple more percentage points on alliance Um, but it doesn't impact the game very much. I think right It's not a huge impact and that's only on private servers where people are there is a big effort from private server Turbo vanilla nerds to min max as much as possible And there's going to be a ton more casual players people that don't know what they're doing They're not going to know how to min max like that. I think that it's very to be lessened In in actual class because they're just there'll just be new more nudes And that's going to be a lot of people coming from retail that just want to stay in horde Hopefully hopefully I mean I definitely agree that uh on retail class like it's going to be very different um It's people aren't going to be so min max oriented, but It does become problematic in vanilla like even a 60 40 split Especially when it comes to world bosses brm like Yeah, you do feel it you do feel it, but um Yeah, I I don't think it's going to be about a retail classic. Absolutely not The trick is to uh go alliance And and don't care about The trick is to go horde and wreck the alliance. That's what it is. That's what it is Yeah, yeah, pretty much uh, let's see um Am I gonna play female dwarf? Yes I've been trying to make s-front go female dwarf battle in but he's not budging. Yeah, I don't I don't know if that's gonna happen Uh You know, I think I've got the I might have the I'm a little tall But uh, I think I've got the stature and the hair for it, but other than that. I don't know Uh So this is something I think I think and this is something I want to address. Uh, I think this is good What do you think of private server players coming to classic and being elitist jerks to noobs and taking control of the age and other aspects of the servers So almost pro I wouldn't say like I mean, there's there's nothing wrong with with being experienced in a game, right? And I don't think that you know, just because somebody has experiences and necessarily make them an elitist jerk, right? and and They're irrelevant because it's such a small number compared to the armist That's what I was gonna say The private server players coming to classic well are gonna be I I would bet like less than two or three percent They're gonna be a huge minority of classic web players. Yeah, I would say under a percent There there will be Turbo elitist private server players, but they're gonna be so far in between. Also, they will probably Very likely a lot of them will call us on the one server and just kind of play with each other So you you might play classical and never even run into one of them And they carry the the the way Of that they have to perform like if the if that guild with all the the classic guys Wipes on necks You get to laugh at them, you know Yeah, it's gonna happen. It's gonna happen on my streams. I know that much We're gonna wipe and you guys are gonna freaking make fun of me all day. So Uh, I think uh, but but kind of back to the original point I don't think like just because somebody like played on a private server Doesn't necessarily make them like when it doesn't make them an expert on everything But on the flip side of everything Or the flip side of that it doesn't It doesn't necessarily mean just because you know everything that you're that you're gonna be like an elitist jerk or whatever and If if they're good at the game like they're good at the game. I don't I don't think that you can You can't take away from somebody for that Like if somebody knows what they're doing then like what like, you know what i'm saying like Yeah, like it's I don't think that's I don't think that's a thing that's that should really be a concern or Uh from from both aspects it depends on like I don't think just knowing about a game makes me an elitist depends on how you behave Yeah, right, and I don't and I don't think people just because they know know about the game will Inherently make them behave poorly, right? Now if they if they know how to run the auction house then more power to them, right? That's that's them. They know. Hey this this raid is coming out. They're gonna need, you know, aq's coming out They need nature's this we need to go get elemental earth or whatever and then i'm gonna farm a bunch and then Sell it right before aq comes out like that's I mean, that's what they know to do, right? I don't know. I think I think more power to them Yeah, I think I think but how how you uh, I think how you act is is a totally different thing um Let's see How quickly from launch do you think mc will be cleared? Oh, what's up kenny marsh, dude? I think it'll be cleared first day I think I think it'll be cleared first day. I think that it's that it's available six like like six Well, well, I mean I mean as soon as uh, I think as soon as people get in there They're gonna be able to clear it. That's my point like I'm talking about progression, right? I I don't yeah, so I don't this question depends. Are they going to time gate? So let's say classic well comes out on the first Molten corn might not be there till the 14th or they're gonna time gate raid releases Um, but yeah, definitely the first day people go in they will kill it Yeah, that's what I'm thinking if if people go in there, they will walk out with a regular skill 100% Yeah, um If it's not time gated it's from launch. Yeah, it's the biggest the biggest requisite or prerequisite to getting into killing regular server launch is just having people at level 60 So if you have fast levelers and your guild is organized and efficient, you can get in there within like I mean, what happened on on this most recent server? I think like four and a half or five days or something, right? So people people can get in there very very quickly I think imagine like giving it your all and you're like level 40 or something after five days you've been playing non-stop and then someone ganks you in full tier one Yeah, it'd be uh, that'd be rough But no, I I do think now as far as from launch because he he asked how how quick do I think it's going to be clear And then he asked how how far from launch um From launch, it's hard to tell right because just like stay safe said The biggest time gate is is having the people leveled up to to get in there But as far as like actually like doing the raid itself I think it's going to be cleared the first day because people will know what to do um Well, I guess the first uh Well, you need a week, right? Wait, I mean a week for what because you need to you need to get all the the wrap and stuff No, you can uh, no, you don't you can throw the wrap just super super fast You can farm it uh out and then you go in what you do is you go in and you can do the quest within one run You can go regular first run. Okay. Well, there you go. Yeah, there you go So uh, it's paladin tanking viable and reds, uh, you can have a specific role. You can have a specific role, but um It's it's As far as like viability versus being optimal like that's two different things, right? Like there's some fights Being decided So like I think that uh, like you take some fights, right? You take some fights like, um Uh, is it ebb and rock you take you take ebb and rock and bwl and uh, like he he does the You need the taunt rotation for him, right? You need a taunt for that boss Like that's that's one that like you're not going to really be able to have paladin tank on but um You have like a paladin tank like doing suppression room type stuff I think that's fine and they can tank some bosses too. I mean there's there's good paladin tanks like in the private server scene uh, especially like I mean you look at people with like a Thunder fury or something like thunder fury is absolutely insane for prop paladins because of how the proc rates work Uh, you get you get double chance to proc whenever you have sealer righteousness up because it's it counts as two hits So are you gonna are you gonna tank in the plastic with a planter fury? Uh, I don't know. I want to I want to tank a zg at some point But I don't think I'll main prop paladin as fun I have a theory that I've been dying up to you guys about because you're experts, right? I'm really big on being beast master. Yeah, okay, and I have a theory for molten core. Okay You need some aoe healing right in molten core like like you get some aoe damage. You need aoe heaters but What if you get a few Aoe heaters, okay, hear me out and literally everyone else is a beast master of turtle Yeah, that would work Yeah, speed run new speed run Just just fucking keep throwing the turtles at him There's no way you would ever get aggro. There's like 35 turtles in there That even if I can go it goes to 20 turtles deep That they would be alive, you know, I feel like when it comes out I will make the turtle beast master only guild. Okay We'll first we'll first clears. Are you playing an air you by the way? You're playing you I think and they because it doesn't matter in wow and I'd rather play with the real the real server You know play with us dude play with us, but go hard. I don't know. You don't sound like turtle material Yeah, someone in the chat just said might work, but what are you going to do with the drops? That's a lot of rolls, man He's just gonna Oh man, uh, let's see our Our arms worry is good. So so how billy how it works in classic is Arms warriors are actually really good at pvp, but you're not really going to bring them into in a pvp environment or pve environment Just because fury is so good fury is like the hardest scaling melee dps and arms can Arms are just not as good, but in pvp. They're like insanely strong So Mortal strike does take a diva slot as well. Yeah, good point. Uh, now Arms actually does really good, uh, cleave damage But it's just like just just like for trash, right? Like you can cleave and sweeping strikes and all this stuff, but Uh, as far as like for for like boss dps generally speaking you're you're gonna do better as fury um So let me see, um Let's take one more question. Let's take one last question here and see Um, i'm i'm looking i'm looking for i'm looking for what's going on um Hold on with all the no changes and all and the and no wow tokens and such And with all the money sunk into making this classic wow by blizzard After about six months the nostalgia will be over for the majority of players that came back to play classic At some point while we'll have to find other ways of paying for the hosting You have people asking for more and more and without considering the profitability of blizzard Well, no, I mean, I think it's going to be absolutely profitable because I think they're Having a shared sub just because you have a shared sub doesn't necessarily mean that you're not making any money off of classic Because you're going to have an oh like a very very large number of people Playing classic who do not play retail wow and just don't care about for retail wow So they're going to be making plenty of money off of it Yeah, I just I disagree with every premise in this question after about six months than the And yeah, so I I don't think I I think first off I think classic wow is a game that can stand on those so two legs without nostalgia There will be new players that will be playing it that have never played before In fact, I would say most people playing private servers have never played actual vanilla wow There are new people coming to vanilla that were interested about you know, the the origins of the game Six months is sort of like an arbitrary number. Um, let's say someone is playing for nostalgia I'm not sure where you got six months from I think people will be very interested to finish the game that they never finished when they were younger If they did play before I mean not many people cleared knacks or got ranked 14 So I think probably people be eager to finish a queue and get ranked 14 and do knacks and finish All their goals that they had to set aside when they you know, we're playing 15 years ago On top of that, like Esfand said, there's going to be a lot of new people subbing just to play classic The game will be The game will be paying for itself Um, so I don't agree with that either Yeah, I think and also like kind of going back to what we're saying early on in the podcast Nostalgia is certainly a factor, but the like classic wow is about the gameplay dude The gameplay is unreal like it's it's so good I I honestly Doesn't damage them anyway because after bfa no one's gonna want to play retail anyway It's gonna be a complete separate market Yeah, I mean it is what it is. It is what it is. Um But guys, I think it's uh, I think I think that's a good uh Good point and it on sieve. Thank you so much for joining us, man Guys, if you haven't followed sieve hd, uh, please go follow sub to his youtube channel Sieve hd tweets on twitter Tips out baby and stay safe tv as well, of course Uh, yeah, seriously, sir. Thank you so much for joining us, man. This is a lot of fun Thank you I've been wanting to come here for a long time and I'm happy that I was invited Thanks for coming on man. It was great. It was a pleasure, man. It was a pleasure, man. Thank you So guys, uh, I'm going to continue my stream, uh, probably play a little bit of dark souls 3 Uh Just uh, oh, yeah, yeah soon soon. There'll also be classic cast t-shirts. Yeah, of course soon There will be classic cast t-shirts as well I'm working on I'm working on that. So that'll be uh, that'll be in my merch store and uh Yeah, that'll be in the last tips out rips through all of them. Right, right, of course So anyways guys, thank you so much for joining us for classic cast and uh Those of you who want to stick around for dark souls feel free and the rest of you guys We'll see you guys next time