 Hello, hello, hello, and welcome. My name is Meron Khalili. We are DM25, a radical political movement for Europe. And this is another live discussion with our coordinating team featuring subversive ideas you won't hear anywhere else. Now, last week, independent research group, Forensic Architecture released a groundbreaking report that exposed for the first time the full cruelty of the EU's border management practices, as well as the lies told by the Greek government. The subject, how the Greek Coast Guard turns away asylum seekers in the Mediterranean Sea, often leaving them to die in its waters. The report presents over 1,000 meticulously documented cases involving the expulsion of over 25,500 people between March 2020 and March 2022. Using video evidence from smartphones and other data, it shines a light on the shameful practices that the Greek Coast Guard has used, like damaging dinghies that these people, including women and children, are using to cross the Mediterranean. So they're forced to stop in the middle of the sea or putting people on life rafts so they drift back to Turkey with the currents, even abandoning people on uninhabited rocks. And on 26 occasions, authorities threw people directly into the water. Two of these people were handcuffed according to the report. Now, the EU in Greece claim that this isn't happening. The Greek government has called it fake news, but the report and its video evidence shows otherwise. Why is Europe so intent on keeping desperate people from crossing its borders in the Mediterranean while welcoming, as it quite rightly should, refugees from Ukraine? And most importantly, how do we stop our governments from committing these crimes and hold them accountable? Our panel, including our own Yanis Farilfakis are here today to answer these questions and more. You out there, you, if you've got thoughts, comments, questions, concerns, ranks, anything you want to throw at us, please do so. This is YouTube. It's live. Put them in the chat and we'll put your questions and comments to our panel. Let's hand it over now to Yanis. Thor is yours. Thank you, madam. The answer to your question, why is Europe doing this? Is unfortunately extremely easy to answer. It's called racism and xenophobia. There are two kinds of refugees, fashionable ones and unfashionable ones. To be a bit more brutal, there are refugees that we consider to be our own. They have white skin. They worship Jesus and the Madonna. They are usually tall and in the xenophobic Europeanist eye, handsome and blonde and usually blue eyed. And then there are the brown people. The brown people that should be kept out with a stick if necessary, with a machine gun, handcuffed thrown into the water. Europe, look, it's, I have been known to say that Europe has been losing its soul since 2015 when it reached an agreement with President Erdogan of Turkey. Actually it was Angela Merkel who did it. On behalf of the rest of the European Union, even the Greek Prime Minister that once was my comrade Alex Tsipras, co-signed the despicable agreement. It was an agreement that I characterized it as the death certificate of Europe's soul. But then of course, people will say to me and have said to me quite rightly so, what on earth are you going on about? Europeans have desecrated the globe, the planet, for hundreds of years. We have committed atrocities in Africa, in Asia, in South America, in North America, in Oceania. Why are you saying that we had a soul to lose? Well, because we convinced ourselves since 1945, especially with the creation of the European Union and the rule of law, human rights, bills of human rights, mobiles of human rights that somehow we were civilized. We're not civilized. Europeans are savages. And I include myself in that. I'm gonna make a distinction between good Europeans and bad Europeans to the extent that this is done in our name, that people are drowned in the GNC on purpose. This is not an accident. We're not talking about the side effects of a policy. We're talking about a direct, planned, conscious policy of killing people at sea. Why? Well, it's very clear. And he was told, he was said to me by a high ranking European official some time ago in private. So, because I want to keep private messages private, doesn't matter who it was. This is a widespread view that, look, we need these people to send SMS texts back home to Nigeria, to Ghana, to Afghanistan, to Pakistan. We need the brown people who are coming to our shores to send a text message to people back home saying, don't come. This is hell. That's it. I mean, why do you think that Moria, the prison camp for refugees for all those years was a place that you would never associate with an advanced camp. People were sleeping in mud, the, you know, in disease infested tents for years on the island of Lesbos. It's not that the European Union did not, could not afford to build them a palace. We could afford to build them a palace if we wanted. They didn't do it on purpose because they wanted those text messages to flow back to Afghanistan, Ghana, Nigeria, Bangladesh. Don't come here. It sucks. It stinks. It's horrible. It's disgusting. And also to know there was a parliamentarian in Greece's parliament who actually came and said the only way of solving the refugee problems, stopping the refugees from coming was blood in the Aegean. This is a must a year, blood in the Aegean. This guy today is the minister of health of the Greek government, right? So let's have no qualms about this. You know, coal spade, a spade. Europe is intentionally killing refugees to keep them off their shores if they're brown and intentionally even encourages them to come in if they're blonde, blue-eyed and Christian. So it's racism in action. Make no two bones about it. I mean, anything that we say beyond that, anything that tries to be more sophisticated theoretically is an affront against the truth. Let's not try to find sub-conscious explanations and this and that. Now, ever since financing architecture published their splendid study report and presented all this evidence because those of you who give it some time and you visit their site and look at the events that were documented. 1,018 cases of illegal pushbacks between March of 2020 and March, 2022. You'll find that there's evidence in there including the serial number of the Coast Guard vessel involves how many refugees were pushed back in which direction? Where did they end up? So they did a splendid job and we owe them a debt of gratitude for that, right? Now, when DEM25 across Europe and Mera25 here in Greece our political party here in Greece when we publicized that, listen to their response. There were two kinds of interventions that we as Mera25 made here in Greece. The first one was me personally as the leader of our parliamentary party. Our parliament gives leaders of parliamentary parties the privilege of tabling written questions to the prime minister that the prime minister according to the rules of our parliament has an obligation to answer on the following Friday during prime minister's question time. So I tabled a one page question comprising effectively a summary of what the forensic architecture report says. And I asked the prime minister of Greece two simple questions. Number one, does he confirm or deny the validity of this report? He could have said no, I think it's all a pile of crap. And here's why. And the second, if these reports are valid, does he support the notion that violating international law for the treatment of people who are in trouble at sea, there is something called the law of the sea about people who for whatever reason, maybe some of them are stupid, they take a dingy and they try to cross the Atlantic. Nevertheless, the international law of the sea specifies that if you find you personally as an individual or as a coast guard, you come across some idiot that is stranded at sea, what you have an obligation as a human being to do. So I asked the prime minister, is the violation of the international law of the sea, do you consider it prime minister to be a decent policy for fortifying Greek national sovereignty? Right? Because this is usually the fallback position of these people. So I table this, it went through the protocol of parliament, he has an obligation to answer. Lo and behold, prime minister Mitsotakis did not answer. No answer. He didn't even answer that he's not going to answer, that he, you know, he's got some other engagement that he won't be able to come to parliament to respond during prime minister's question time. Silence. The press that belongs to the oligarchs that own Mr. Mitsotakis, silence. Complete silence. This is one response, silence, from authority, whether it is political authority or the media establishment, right? Okay, now, in the public domain, where the establishment, as you all know, employs multitudes of trolls in Twitter, in Facebook, in the social media, they all came out in huge strength, attacking Meta 25, and me personally, as a national waiter, because I do not prioritize the defense of national borders from the invading hordes of Muslims and brown people, some of them even said that, with sort of cynical lines, like if you love them so much, you know, marry them to your daughter so that they get national citizenship, you know, Greek citizenship, or bring them to your egg in a house. Now, I'm saying this because this is not an operation. This is what the mindset of the average European is. And I'm looking at so-called liberals and I'm saying shame on you, because even if you are not thinking that way, your silence is enabling this mindset. Europeans are collective criminals who are intentionally killing people to keep brown people out while you are encouraging white people in. Thank you. Thank you for that, Yenis. Beral, Beral Madra, based in Turkey. Thank you, Mehran. Actually, we are in 2022, but I've witnessed this tragedy since 2006 or maybe five, because during the summers, I am living in Ayvalik, which is just across from Atlanta Island, and at that time, we have witnessed that many refugees were moving with wooden boats, not with plastic boats. So these wooden boats were left on the beaches all over this territory. And at the beginning, there was no control. They were moving from Anatolian shores, from Dikili, from Ayvalik, from Assos, to Mitilene. So Mitilene got, as Yenis has described very well, all the refugees coming from this route. And actually, this route is famous with its human trafficking, since, I don't know, since 1980s or whatever. So there was a system here, moving the refugees, not only the refugees, but the political immigrants. For example, in the 70s, many Kurdish people and many left-wing political people were leaving Turkey from Ayvalik to Mitilene. Actually, it's interesting that this was the route, the traditional route towards Europe. It's interesting. So where did I see these boats? In LFZs. Khaliopi Lemos collected some boats from the beaches and brought these boats to LFZs. For until 2009, these boats were standing there as a contemporary art installation. She continued her installation work and I witnessed this work, because it was important. It was showing what is really happening in this geography, this tragedy through these boats. And the last very effective one was in front of the Brandenburg Tor in Berlin. It was a huge installation with, let's say, 12 boats. She transported these boats and made a huge installation just in front of when, actually, the German government was negotiating with Turkey not to send these refugees to Europe. So, I mean, if you look to the website of the European Union, you can see a very, very optimistic way of describing what is going on. They say, we are giving all the money, we are taking care of all these refugees in Turkey and the Turkish government is looking after them, et cetera. I mean, it's interesting that people should follow these official reports on the website. The first sentence is, Turkey's geographical position makes it the first reception and transit country for many refugees and immigrants. So, there are four million registered. But since 2000, I can say, since 2018, I'm not witnessing. Sorry, Baral, I think you're having some connection trouble there. Yeah, I think you're having some connection trouble there, but... No, sorry. Yeah, we couldn't... Not good connection. No, bad connection. But I think we got the gist of it. Just to put some numbers, actually. 2000, since 2000. Sorry, we're having some connection issue. No, I can put some numbers on that. I am sorry, but... Yes, go on, we can hear you now. The number is probably six million, but not only on the... See, now the movement is from eastern border of Turkey through Anatolian soil towards... I don't know. But they cannot move to outside of Turkey now. They stay in Turkey. Thanks for that, Baral, and I'm sorry to everyone for the internet connection trouble. Just to put some numbers on there as Baral started and put some of the things we've discussed so far into context. Ah, there we go, can you hear me? Okay, I'm looking at a UNHCR report, which says that there were 3,231 people dead or missing at sea last year, which is a sharp rise from 2020. And that last year's shipwreck death toll is on a par with 2014, which of course was in the middle of the Syrian war and all people fleeing from the Syrian war. So the UNHCR calls this situation a widespread, longstanding, and as Yanis was saying, largely overlooked tragedy. And critically, somewhat better jobs, but most are fleeing conflict and persecution. So keep these numbers in mind as we continue our talk. Let's go now to Amir, Amir Kiayi, based in the Hague. I hope to you, Amir. Thank you, Mehran. And look, the issues that were exposed to this reports and of course the millions of other untold stories. And when we're talking about the number of refugees and interning the space people globally, the number has reached and breached 100 million for the first time in human history as far as we, in terms of classification and so forth, if you like it. And of course, as Yanis highlighted that the systematic reason for this is racism is anophobia. And only the only brown people are allowed are of course knowledge migrants and those with sufficient skill sets and wherever the labor market gap is for them to continue driving the European economy. At the policy table, of course, we see that's the extremely rapid and welcoming response to those fleeing the conflict in Ukraine. And there are existing mechanisms that are being used to house and facilitate integration and ease the day-to-day life of those refugees that we deemed welcome. But let's turn our attention to what should be rightful policy. And this obliges us not to only look at the short-term issues related to asylum seekers, refugees and migrations and so on. And let me also be clear that we're not making a distinction between those terms as just the legal terms out there but also zeroing in on the root causes. And as your viewers are aware, these are centuries of colonialism and it's what we manifest what the manifestations of that that we see today continued exploitative trade relations, ongoing support to dictators and authoritarian regimes throughout the planet. And of course wars and the US and NATO member supported war on terror. For example, as itself has and this is a conservative number resulted in over 55 million refugees and internally displaced people. And definitely climate change and destruction of livelihoods. And all of these are driving even greater and greater number of people having to move and are forced to move. And of course we already in Europe we see what one degree of climate change has done to Spain, France and Portugal. We also maybe just turning into what the M25 has so far put out. And as of last Friday we issued the second green paper on migration as members have all received an email about thanks to the hard work of our volunteers and task force on migration. And in this paper we've proposed everything from a short-term perspective to ending the militarized border control mandate of front-ex reducing administrative burdens and so on and all the way to looking at the more longer-term issues that I mentioned early on regarding trade, et cetera. However, we also are keeping an eye out on what the European Union is doing and there's the new pact on migration on horizon and horizon is quite short-term because it looks like they want to get this through the legal hoops by the end of the year or early next year. And the new pact on migration is going to make it even more difficult. It's going to like further push migrants out. It's gonna securitize it even further and create even greater if you like militarized role for front-ex and so on. But of course as a movement, as an active movement we are monitoring this and we are already designing and developing a grassroots-based campaign on this issue. And maybe I don't know if Dushan can chime in on that further. Thanks. Thanks, Amir. We'll hear from Dushan. I just wanted to let a couple of people on the chat chime in here. Marika says, I'm Greek in English. The miserable, excuse me, the misery is immeasurable and the EU turns a blind eye to it. I'm not surprised. I'm just disgraced, disgusted, and disappointed again. And Mike says, as soon as the poor, brown, uneducated people realize that 1% don't care about them, the better. We need to rid the 1% of their wealth and power. Dushan Payavich, our campaign coordinator at Montenegro. Dushan. Thanks, Makhan. So basically I just want to highlight what Amir said. As I said many, many times on this live stream, we are not a think tank organization. So we do have this new policy package, which is green paper on migration, but we will not stop on that. As you can see, we are definitely in a loop on what European Commission is doing regarding this and all of the other issues. And we are already in touch with our grassroots members who help us to design both some texts around it and the campaign outline of the future campaign with me and Amir in contact. So the new packet of the European Commission has really clear objectives, which is to prioritize border security over access to asylum and to increase deportations. It has three main pillars, which would be discouraging migration by supporting countries of origin and transit, strengthening border security and boosting flexible solidarity among member states. We are not going to be silent on that. And I will use this opportunity to get in touch, to invite members to get in touch with either me or Amir as on the one side, the campaigning coordinator and on the other side, policy coordinator. We are already prepared to do some street actions, to broaden our horizons with new collaborations and finally to do some pressure campaigns in order for this not to pass further on. So yes, we will not be silent on this issue definitely and you can expect more updates in the future. Make sure that you are subscribed to our newsletter and finally please join DM in order for us to work together on this. Thanks. Thank you Dushan. Took the words right out of my mouth. If you want to join DM, the address is dn25.org slash join. We are not a think tank. We are a do action organization who were determined to change policy and bring about real changes, including on the issues that we're describing today. So let's move now to Yudit Mayer based in Berlin. Yudit? Yeah, I agree with everything that has been said of course. I would like to contribute a German perspective. And that is, well, actually two things. One is that Janusz is absolutely right that this is an issue of racism. I noticed that the excitement, there was excitement in Germany and a broad wave of support both in 2015 with the Syrian refugees and now with the Ukrainian refugees. But it was a completely different kind of wave. In 2015, it was basically the center left celebrating itself, celebrating its openness. We can help people standing with flowers and teddy bears at the train stations. And it was how Germany wants to see itself. Whereas now the wave of solidarity with Ukrainians, it was not the same people. It was completely, well, some of the same people did help and some of them are still at the train station helping even now that it's less popular to do so. But basically a lot of these articles about Ukrainians refugees arriving and getting free transport, no checks at the borders and so on, all of these articles came with a lot of dissonant comments. And that is by, what I assume, all the German men being excited that finally Germany's brothels will have fresh meat. You could find it everywhere because in Germany, it's completely legal. Prostitution is completely legal. They pay taxes, they get health checks and so on. And 80% of prostitutes are foreign. Usually from Romania or from even further away, often without papers. So people were everywhere, you could read it everywhere on Twitter, under every single news article in the comments section, people were so excited that finally they're getting some more white prostitutes coming in. And of course, this is mainly because the refugees from Ukraine were mostly women and girls because the men were required to stay in Ukraine and fight. So it's the perfect situation for exploitation with the men not being able to earn an income and the women having to find some way to make ends meet in Germany. Yeah, I think Zelensky did a really bad deal to his countrymen by mandating the men to be detained at the border. But yeah, going back to the Frontex report, this is a very harrowing read. And I saw that we got a lot of shares for presenting it. And that is mainly because nobody else did. Well, I don't know about other countries, but here in Germany, nobody else did. I actually went on all the major news sites and there was exactly one site that had a small notice about it, which is Neues Deutschland. They are linked to the Partei di Linke and they had like a comment from their MEP about this report. But like the newspapers associated with the social Democrats, the newspapers associated with the Greens, nothing. And even the Linke, they did not send out a press release about this. They send out three press releases every week and they did not send one out about this big report. So I think that this points to what Germany is going to do going ahead, just stick the head in the sand because everyone, like the Greens voters, the Greens voters are typically the people we would expect to help and a lot of them did help in 2015 and now with the Ukrainians. But as long as the Greens are in government, they do not want to know about this crisis and they're not going to change anything. They're just going to pretend it doesn't exist and pretend that Frontex is all good now. And I think we cannot let them do that. So I'm really calling on all of you here to share this news within Germany, obviously also in other countries, if you live in other countries, but especially in Germany where there is actually a large amount of the population who is sensitive to this issue and who has helped in 2015 and has helped now and who would probably reshare this and tell even more people and put some pressure on the Greens who are in government and who came with an explicit policy of making it easier to immigrate and making it less harrowing for refugees in Germany. They're in government. We need to put pressure on them. So first thing to do is to go to the DM homepage and the German homepage and share some of the German articles we have there. We have German videos. We have podcasts about this issue on our German YouTube channel. Please get the word out and let's put some pressure on them. Thank you, Judith. And if you'd like to go directly to the report, you can find it at gn.forensic-architecture.org and there'll be a link in our chat soon to that report directly. Eric Edmund, I owe to you. Yeah, the link to that report is already on our chat. So you have everybody watching, you can find it there. So about this time last year, I was doing my military service and I was stationed on one of the islands that's just off the coast of Turkey. So right on the border. And I wanted to share a bit of a story from that experience that I was very unfortunate to have and to have had done my military service at the time when our governments are pursuing the policy that they're pursuing and the actions that they're pursuing. My left-wing credentials were well known even before I arrived. So very quickly, I wasn't given responsibilities that might be crucial for the dealing of illegal migrants as they are, of course, referred to on the border. So I wasn't responsible for taking care of radars in the middle of the night when I would be the only contact point. I wasn't the one responsible for being up where the radars are and taking care of that unit. I was always down at the headquarters together with the officers, but there were times at night when I was the only person there at the headquarters, everybody else being asleep. And we share a building, we used to share a building with the coast guard of that island. We were in the same building without giving off too many details. Very close to where I was stationed doing my night shift with all the screens and videos and the radars and the rest of it. I was the room of the special operations of the coast guard for that island. And they were, every night, kitted out for war. They wore bulletproof vests. They had machine guns. They had night vision goggles. They were not a coast guard. They looked every bit the part of a special forces unit and they would go out every night on patrol. And of course our job being armed forces was not to interfere with anything that we identified unless we thought that it was armed forces from the other side, from Turkey. But if it's anything else, you always pass on the information to the coast guard to investigate. That's it. That's where your responsibility starts and ends. You identify something, you don't know what it is. You try to figure out what it is. If you can't figure that out, the coast guard goes to figure it out in person. And that's the last you hear of that. So seeing this report, I know now that at the island where I was stationed, over 100 illegal pushbacks were conducted. And of course, I have to think how many of those are cases that were called in while I was doing my shift. And it's a very weird feeling because it doesn't matter who you are. It doesn't matter where you stand on the political spectrum. When your government is doing these things, you are an accomplice. And there are different levels of being an accomplice. When I was there, I was more of an accomplice than somebody who's on the other side of the country minding their own business. Because I was part of the mechanism, the defense mechanism that is used and weaponized against these people. But even without my knowledge, and you see them go out, you see them come in, sometimes you see them come back having rescued people at sea. And you think, all right, maybe it's not as bad as I think, and this is the insidious thing that your humanity and your mind always makes, urges you to think that is not as bad as you think it is because it helps you sleep at night. It's easier to put your mind at rest about what government you have, what elected politicians you have, who represents the country, what these people do in your name, at our borders or wherever else, whether it is in Greece and the islands of Greece or whether it is in Spain where 23 people were shot and killed by the Spanish government. It's easier to think that it's not as bad as you think. And the good news are mixed with the bad news and you would try to focus on some of the good news to water down the bad news. My point I think that I'm trying to make is that while these governments are in place, we're all accomplices because this is being done in our names, it's criminal, it's murder what is being done in our names and it is being done. And it doesn't matter if we voted for them or not, they are our governments and we live in a democracy and for as long as they remain in power, they are our elected representatives and we allow them to remain our elected representatives and kill people in the name of our democracy. And that cannot stand. These governments need to be toppled, not simply voted out, they're criminal, it's illegal what is being done and we keep watering down our language and our response and our stance vis-a-vis these things because it is uncomfortable. But these things are happening in our name and we need to be responding both in action and in language at the level that this situation warrants. And of course I speak now and I'm not trying to drag you down because of what I experienced and where I was and what I saw. But the reality stands that it doesn't matter whether you're in Greece and your government directly through the orders that it gives the Coast Guard kills people or whether you're in the Netherlands or Germany, like you did very rightly said and your government simply sticks its head in the sand. You are either enabling it by allowing it to continue or you're actively supporting it. Either way, Europe is criminal. These governments, even if they offered us socialist utopias, we would have a humanist duty to topple them, let alone whatever trash we're being offered instead, right? They're terrible governments for people. But even if they weren't, even if they were fantastic, we still would have a duty to topple them. So I think that is really where the crux of the matter is that we're all in this, that this is being done in our name, in Europe's name, and we cannot allow it to stand. And that is kind of the direction that I think we need to be taking this conversation from now on rather than trying to mitigate the issues or water it down. It needs to, we need to call, like you already said at the beginning, we need to pull the spade aspect. Thanks for that, Eric. Very important firsthand account there. David Adler from our sister organization, Progressive International, a special guest in this week's call. Over to you, David. Thanks so much for having me. I think what struck me so much about the past six months of looking at European politics from the outside is the mix of what we might call idealism and realism and when the critics of our politics decide to reach for one on the shelf and the other on the shelf. So when we were trying to look at the war in Ukraine with a sense of realism, a sense of clear-minded understanding of what was happening on the ground and what was bound to happen, what has now transpired almost exactly as we suspected that it would, namely the weak and limited commitments that were being made and floated and rhetorically bounced around by the United States and by many of its allies on the European continent. We were accused of being cold-hearted realists that actually what we needed to do is stick with a certain high-minded ideal that it didn't matter how many people died in the name of democracy. It didn't matter what was sacrificed in the great fight against the oligarchs in Russia. That those were collateral damage that Europe was willing to tolerate as long as it stood up for the ideal of democracy. But when we talk about the ideal of democracy, when we talk about the murders committed in our name on the Aegean Sea, by Helena and Coast Guard, of course, by the Mitsukakis governments, by the range of governments that now ring the Mediterranean with the tacit consent of NATO warships and the active participation of Europe's border agency, Frontex, when we talk about those things, then they put down that heady idealism and reach back for the realism and say, what do you expect? This is just, you know, this is just what it is. You have to accept it. What do you want to just open the borders? What do you want to treat them with dignity? What do you want to let them to come into Europe? How could you be so foolish as to think that that was something that we could stomach accept, that that was ever going to be realistically on the table? You've got to play a more realistic game. And again, underneath that banner of realism, all sins are forgiven, all violations of international law are internalized and the blood is pushed back into the sea and the dirt is swept under the rug. And that is, sorry, that is the great hypocrisy that governs European politics, that ability to toggle between these rhetorical and political modes without actually any adherence to any real principle, any real sense of the international laws that they preach to the rest of the world, the meaning of liberal democracy that they hold in such high esteem and that is supposed to mark the European way of life. So I think from the perspective of the progressive international, it's looking at the manifestations of that European hypocrisy on the global stage. It starts in the Mediterranean, it starts with fortress Europe and stretches all the way down into the African continent where a much more effective, efficient and invisible architecture has been constructed. Eric mentioned the crimes that were committed in Morocco. Why were those crimes committed in Morocco? Because this policy of externalizing these borders has moved on to the African continent. We see it in Egypt with Sisi, we see it in Libya. We see it with a Moroccan Marrake where the Sanchez government was all too willing to throw the Sarwawi people from the Western Sahara under the bus in order to secure a deal from the Moroccan monarchy, trading away the sovereignty of Western Sahara in order to gain the armed loyalties of the Moroccans who were threatened to send the great hordes of migrants to European shores. And it reaches deeper and deeper into an African continent with more deadly weapons, with more lethal means to crimes that may not be committed directly by European hands in many cases but are absolutely committed with European finances, tactical support and the tacit, if not explicit backing of NATO forces and the respective national armies operating in places as different as Sudan and the Congo and elsewhere. And so I think to speak to, you know, you did point about the shocking deafening silence of the very same people who were six months ago lecturing us about the absence of our humanity, about our inability to stand up and defend the basic values that they claim to hold dear and put in the epicenter of the European project. It's shocking, it's infuriating, but it's also motivating in the sense of realizing the special role that DM has that the PI plays in prodding at that pressure point and refusing to let those opponents of ours who hold such powerful positions across the European institutions to let them forget about that hypocrisy and to let them get away with these crimes, committed our names at the same time as they accuse us who try to hold on to a sense of integrity, the sense of principle, a sense of consistency in that application of those principles be they on the Eastern, Southern, Northern borders of this big continent. It's up to us to be the ones who are holding those pillars strong as the whole building around us begins to collapse. So I think that's a bit of the perspective where we come from. And I was very happy to be able to collaborate between the Progressive International and DM in front of the architecture to be these leading voices and trying to hold our authorities to account for those crimes, but there's so much more work to do. And so I hope we can continue doing it together. Thanks very much for that, David. And yes, there is so much work to do. I mean, one of the things with activism we always talk about is we must expose what's going on. We must hold it to the light. And yet today, we have exactly that. We have a very meticulously documented report which shows with video evidence for the first time the systematic, unjust, disgraceful policy of murder, essentially. And yet there's media silence, as Yanis was talking about, and the report is not making the splash that it deserves. And it should, the establishment will, looks like if all things stay the same, we'll get its way and it will just go quietly. Well, I don't think we should let that happen. And some of the ideas that have been discussed today are definitely going the direction of not letting that happen. Please join DM 25 because we won't let that happen. DM 25.org slash join. And if anyone for the rest of this conversation has other ideas about what are these blocks and what are the ways around it instead of just waiting for people to essentially wake up or discover this themselves, then please, please speak up and let's hear it. Ivana Ninadovic from Serbia. Go for it. Thanks, Mekhan. And what you just said is, you know, why we are fighting for a sound still. She also exposed facts, documents, and media still manages to spin and make him a bad guy and not those who committed the crimes. Same happens, of course, politicians are very well aware of what they're doing, as Yanis said, and this murder is being committed on purpose in the name of all of us Europeans. However, in the meantime, there is media bombardment on ordinary people who are adopting these xenophobia and racism, even not knowing that they're being racist, that's even possible. But what's more worrisome is that people are unempathetic. They accept this brutality and with, yeah, no feelings basically. And if you talk to a regular person, they will ask you why would they even come through the Mediterranean? It's their risk, they're taking it, and it will end up in this or other way. And then we have suddenly a huge influx of white white-eyed refugees from Ukraine. And then again, as Judith said, you will see an ordinary person on the street seeing Ukrainian women arrive as synonym for prostitutes, of course. Also, there is another side of that coin that you will mostly see economically well of Ukrainians driving jeeps and so on, so people will also say, well, they don't actually need help. Of course, the truth is that those who are richer have the advantage to leave the country and the poor will stay and fight and then we will read about the numbers of casualties in anywhere, not just this latest one. And as Europeans, we shouldn't be living in this dream that we are so civilized and noble when our cruelty and brutality never ended. Thank you. Thank you, Ivana. And let me just quote Miguel Duarte, the Migrants Rights activist, who I spoke to in an interview a couple of weeks ago. You can also see that video on DM25's YouTube channel. He said, people are not dying because the European states refuse to help. They're dying because there are intentional policies put in place to make that happen. I'm not saying the ultimate goal is for people to die, but I'm saying that that's the direct and intentional consequence of the policies that are put in place right now. So this view is backed up by people who, like Miguel, who have been out there saving people on boats and also politicians here and the view is really out there, but this is a terrible systematic policy of essentially intent, not murder. So what can we do about it? We've discussed some solutions. We've discussed how DM25 is approaching it with our migrants policy paper, but a policy paper is not going to fix it. We're running in elections. In Greece, we've got a political party in Germany. We've got a party that's about to be created in Italy. And if you want to be part of this, again, the email at the website address is dm25.org slash join. If I can hand over to you, Yanis, to close on this, since you started us off, since we're at the top of the hour, Yanis. The solution that Madam keeps talking about because he's right. We need to talk solutions, not simply to note the calamity and the abuse of human rights. The solution is only one, movements like DM25, gaining strength in the same way that the answer to the question, why is Europe doing this? Why are the pushbacks happening? It's brutally simple. And the answer is weaponized racism. The answer to the question of what needs to be done is also brutally straightforward and also quite depressing. Because when we say that movements like DM25 need to gain strength and therefore through strength, electoral strength, strength in the movements, influence of a public opinion, immediately realize the enormity of the task. But then again, every fire requires a first small flame to start it, every movement that we have every movement that succeeds begins with a movement that hasn't succeeded. We are established. We've been around now for seven years, we almost, we are international, transnational. We have the mechanisms, we have the gathered experience and it is completely up to us to take advantage of the discontent that the multiple crisis of the European social economy is creating for itself in order to make the difference. But for that, we need to be more than a Zoom. We need to be more than an internet-based movement. DM25 and DM25 in Greece, where I'm calling from, today we're involved in six different demonstrations. We are building very successfully our relationship with movements that now begin to recognize that we are not in the business of copting them, but we are in the business of assisting them, strengthening them, providing help to develop without any interest on our part to guide them. This combination of growing our movement and contributing to other movements is the way forward. It's a long way to go. We may very well fail, but is there an alternative? This is one of the situations where there is absolutely none. Thank you for that, Yenis, and thank you to you out there for your questions, comments, and for watching us. See you at the same time. Two weeks from now, same place.