 Good morning. My name is Elizabeth Moran. I'm Director of Education and Research here at EFIC. Thank you for joining the webinar today on Managed Income Portfolio Services. I have with me Emma Jenkins, who is Director of Managed Accounts, who is going to be giving that presentation. But before I hand over to Emma a couple of things, first of all, you should have a panel on the side of your screen. If you can't see that panel, there's an orange arrow. If you just click on that, it will expand the panel and you'll see down the list there is an area that says questions. So if you have any questions as we're going through the webinar today, please type them in and we'll try and answer them for you. Now a little bit about Emma. Emma's worked at FIG for four years and has been my colleague over that time. We've worked on a number of projects and she's got an excellent analytical and technical mind, so she's perfect to give this presentation today. A bit about her, she spent the last 14 years in various roles in financial markets, including a stint at UBS in Asia. Now as we go through the presentation today, just before we do start, I just want to make you all aware that the MIPS or the Managed Income Portfolio Service is for wholesale investors only and we can only provide general advice. So we make the assumption that you have done an introduction to fixed income, so there may be some terms you're not familiar with in this presentation, but if you haven't done that introduction to fixed income, just email me in or let us know, we'll send you a link to a webinar so you can catch up at some time later on. But without further ado, I'm very delighted to introduce you to Emma Jenkins. Thanks for coming and presenting, Emma. Great. Thanks Liz. I'm very excited to be here today to talk about our new Managed Income Portfolio Service, which we call MIPS for short. Our new service is a first in the Australian market and offers investors a direct portfolio of bonds that's professionally managed. The Managed Income Portfolio Service offers a higher regular income stream from your own portfolio of bonds. So all the income is paid on individual investments and that can go straight into your funding account. MIPS provides direct ownership of the bonds held in your name via a managed account. This is similar to how many people hold their equities. The critical point is that the bonds are held in the investor's name, so they are segregated from all the other investor's decisions. Okay, so Emma, that's a really good point. So they're held in your own name and you can get all the income through to you just as if you were an individual or direct investor, so there's no restriction on that income. That's exactly right. You can endeavor to take the best of the direct bond service and just overlay professional management. It's also important to know, this differs to managed funds where investments are pulled. These investments are segregated and held in your own name. Your MIPS portfolio is looked after by the portfolio management team, so you put your money into MIPS and then the team take over. So they select the bonds and then they manage your investments. So the teams are monitoring the market the whole time to risk manage your portfolio, but importantly also to optimize your return. They're looking for opportunities to improve your portfolio return and hence your income. Unlike equity markets where there's open access, the fixed income markets are predominantly OTC or over the counter, so by using MIPS, that portfolio management team is investing for you alongside those institutional investors. So we have over 130 people nationally with a wealth of experience across the portfolio management team, sales, research and education, so by selecting MIPS, you're tapping into all of our knowledge and experience to help look after your money. I think that sounds great. It's certainly a lot of work in my role just reading, keeping up to date with what's going on just in our market, so to have access to all those people is a real advantage I think. Yeah, look, I think a lot of investors are looking for the option to have fixed income market professionals looking after their money. They're complex fixed income markets and there's the macro environment, local economic conditions and then there's the credit work itself to be done on the bonds and that's something we do all day every day. Great. So taking a look at the main features of MIPS, the first is that discretionary portfolio management, which I've touched upon, the team's headed up by Owen Hung, who brings a wealth of experience from offshore, he's been in New York, London, Hong Kong and looking particularly at credit work, which is assessing the viability of the companies and so that team has the discretion to look after your portfolio. As I touched on, they look at the macro environment, so that's broad, it's interest rates, it's inflation, it's economic growth, it's fiscal policy, it's credit spreads and they look at all of those factors to form a view in the asset allocation for your portfolio. They then look at the credit of the individual bonds that they're going to put in your portfolio and the undertake analysis of the individual issuers situation, their business prospects, their outlook to determine whether you'll, to ensure you'll get paid your coupons and your money at maturity and of course they continuously monitor those companies as well, so they're always assessing the risk, risk return of your holdings. I've got a couple of questions for you, Emery, it's a good time now to have a bit of a break. So, Ian has asked, under MIPS, can retail investors get access to bonds that are traditionally only available to wholesale investors? No, unfortunately they can't. This is a wholesale only product at this stage, but we are working on a retail investment program, but it is probably 12 to 18 months away. There's greater levels of complexity from our side involved in creating it, so it's for wholesale investors only. That's fantastic, because that actually hopefully answers your question to Alan, so we'll let you continue, Emma. Great. I wanted to touch on transacting services and why this is so important in bond markets. So, unlike in equities where anyone can trade online and buy and sell stocks, that's not the case in bond markets. As I mentioned, it's over the counter, so the portfolio management team are able to do two things. They're able to aggregate the MIPS investments and use those sort of block trades, if you like, to go and purchase bonds in the market and get better prices. But they're also talking to the market all the time, so they spend about half their day talking to the various parts of the bond market to source bonds to make up the MIPS portfolios. Another key point is wherever they purchase bonds, that's the price that goes into your portfolio, so effectively they're bought at cost. Great. Onto the custody admin and reporting. So, your MIPS portfolios are held in big custody. We look after all the portfolio administration for you, so what we're aiming to do here is make it really simple for you, so you can get on with your life and enjoy your retirement. But we do know transparency is very important, so there's continuous reporting on your portfolio. You can access that online at any stage and see your exact holdings and when your coupons are going to be paid. Oversight and governance is important, so you've got complete confidence in your investments. As we've taken on the discretionary part of MIPS, that means we can manage your portfolio. So we've put in place three levels of checks and balances. These are the portfolio management committee, they look at the risk protocols and the risk governance, the supervisory committee, this is a majority independent committee and they're responsible for looking at governance as well, but also returns, pricing and portfolio turnover. Finally, we're audited by a big accounting firm as both the custodian and MIPS, so this is all intended to provide you peace of mind, you know, that your investment is being properly looked after. That's great, Emma, I think that's really important. Everyone needs to be comfortable with where they're investing their funds and that they're going through proper process, so highlighting those is fantastic. Thank you. I have another question too from Ronald and Ronald asks, is the bond portfolio common to all MIPS investors or does it vary from client to client? That's a great question. The answer is that it can vary from client to client. In order to be able to make a bond managed account, what we've done is we've created investment programs, which I'll get to a moment, and every investor's investment will comply with that investment program, but effectively they'll have an individually managed account, so they will potentially have, well, they will have a unique portfolio. However, having said that, if you invest in the core income, for example, your portfolio will look broadly similar to most of the other people who own a core income portfolio. Excellent, and another question from Michael. Michael asks, can an existing portfolio be transferred into a MIPS, and is there a review process before the transfer? Yes, and yes, so yes, bonds can be in-species transferred across to MIPS, but the portfolio management team will check those bonds to make sure they're appropriate to move across, and they may sell down some of those bonds, but they will look at those bonds first and provide a tick-off as to which ones can be transferred into MIPS. Right, I've got another couple of questions, but I think we'll just let you keep going for a couple of slides, because I think some of those questions will be answered in the presentation. Great, thanks Liz. So I've just run through quite a lot of detail there about MIPS, and I think the important point is that's all what we do for you. So we've set up MIPS to take those four key components and look after those for you so that you can invest in fixed income, direct fixed income, but in a simple and convenient way. So now taking a look at the investment programs that I touched on briefly before. There are four investment programs for wholesale investors to select. These have been created by a portfolio management team, and they spend a lot of time setting these up and thinking about the appropriate program limits in order to provide access to bond market to meet investors' risk return appetites. So looking at the three defined programs where investment starts from $250,000, we have the core income program. So this provides regular income with low risk. It's a senior debt-only portfolio, so that's the very top of the capital structure with a high allocation to investment-gated securities. The current target return on this portfolio, net of fees, is 4.25%. Now this is the baseline return or the yield to maturity and active management is expected to add to that return. The second investment program is the income class. So this offers higher income with moderate risk. This can include bonds from the whole capital structure and the whole credit rating spectrum. So that means both rated and unrated bonds. This portfolio invests in higher risk companies that are carefully selected by the team. So it's really important the credit work that's done by Owen and his team to get very comfortable that the companies will pay their coupons and their money maturity. So the higher risk though is of course compensated with higher returns and the target return on this portfolio is 5.4% net of fees. These are all the current levels of returns. And of course, like the core income, that's the basic expected target and with trading, Owen will be looking for opportunities all the time and I imagine trading the bonds to try and achieve higher returns for investors. That's right. We'll be looking for opportunities in the market and then assessing the credit of those opportunities and whether they add value to the portfolio, both in terms of diversification and of course, return. Fantastic. The third portfolio is an inflation linked program. It's an inflation hedge portfolio. So most of investments across the market, the payments are not linked to inflation. This is intended to be a pure inflation hedge that's linked to the headline inflation number. The issue is a mainly government and semi governments and some corporate bonds. So this is a very conservative portfolio. The current target return on the portfolio is 3.3% net of fees. Now, the fourth option is to cut customized. So we can customize. That means we can create a program to meet whatever requirements, whether they're ethical, social and governance, credit restrictions or liquidity requirements for investors from 5 million. This has particular appeal in the not-for-profit sector and for investors with specific needs. Great. Before we move on, there are a couple of questions. So Ron's asked, what is the minimum dollar investment? And of course, you've just said 250,000, but he also asks, and is there a daily price visible on his screen? Can he see the pricing? Yes, Ron, you can. On my fig, you can log in. You can see your bonds every day and you'll be able to see the price that will be the previous day's close. Fantastic. And both Ron and Michael ask, how do they exit? How do they get money out of mips if they need it? So you need to keep a minimum of 250,000 invested in mips, but assuming you had a larger balance than that, you can draw down and we've got a best endeavours of 10 business days to return those funds. And that's just to ensure we get best execution on exit. Or alternatively, a complete sell-down, so I guess a termination of your investment is 30 business days. And there is actually a third option, which is transferring your bonds out of the specie into a direct bond account and holding them there. Okay. So if you had, say I invested 250,000 dollars and I needed 50,000 dollars for a wedding or a trip, I would need to sell down my portfolio or transfer it to a direct portfolio. And then I could just sell bonds to take the 50,000. And then if I had further money, I had received further money in a year or so, I could then transfer it back in. Is that right Emma? That's correct. Okay. There's a few other questions here, but I think I'll keep going and we'll keep going because again, she may answer some of them, but we will attempt to answer more as we go through. Great. Thanks Liz. So now taking a look at a case study of the types of investments in MIPS and how they choose different programs. So here we have conservative investors, Ryan and Amanda, and they've been using TDs for income. But as the rate offered by the banks has declined below 3%, this is not providing them enough income anymore. So we see many investors like Ryan and Amanda who are looking to invest in bonds to create a higher income stream. However, Ryan and Amanda don't know much about the bond market and they don't want to become the fixed income experts. They'd like to be able to travel without worrying about their investments. They've also, they've never invested in bonds and they don't know much about the fixed income market. However, they do have a managed account for their equities and they see the benefit of having a professional management team making decisions and watching the markets on their behalf. So they've selected the core income program as they want low capital volatility. And this provides them with an expected return of at least 4.2% and that's 1.2% over the best TD that they can find. So this is really gonna help them meet their living expenses. So looking at that core income program in a bit more detail that Ryan and Amanda selected. So this is a conservative portfolio with the majority of bonds being investment grade. So at least 85% of this portfolio must be held in investment grade bonds. So looking at the July portfolio created by the portfolio management team, you can see all the bonds are rated in the triple B spectrum except for SET logistics which is unrated and represents just under 15% of the portfolio which is the maximum amount for unrated bonds. So this allocation to investment grade bonds will likely result in lower price volatility. So for these conservative investments they want a strong income stream but they want low capital volatility. The target return as I've mentioned is 4.25% net of fees and this is the baseline. So the active management that we've discussed will add to this. So this provides Ryan and Amanda with the income they need to meet their expenses. You'll also note here the chart up in the top corner you can see that the portfolio's got a mixture of fixed rate, floating rate and inflation linked bonds. So currently the portfolio management team have a higher emphasis on fixed rate bonds as they value the certainty of fixed income in the current interest rate environment where they view rates and figures a house views rates as being lower for longer. Okay, I've got a couple of questions. Is it a good time now to ask Emma? Okay. A couple of things, where do I start here? Peter has asked, can you state the running yield targets? Now I'm not sure there are running yield targets or income targets on the portfolio. Peter, looking at the one that Emma's provided though and most of the bonds are fixed rate, I'm assuming that the running yield would be actually higher than that target of 4.25%. I don't know for sure, but Apatsemi, you might wanna answer that. That's right Liz, it is. It's currently at about 4.9% is the running yield on the portfolio. We tend to focus on the yield to maturity because that reflects your overall return but the portfolios are deriving strong income yields as well. Okay, and I've got a couple of questions here. Graham asks, can you give me a couple of disadvantages of MIPS plans? Yes, I can. I think one of the key ones is around control. So with MIPS, you're handing over to the professional management team, the portfolio management team. So they're empowered to make the decisions on your behalf. So you don't get to say I don't like that bond and the portfolio management team won't ask you before they sell a bond and buy another bond. So that may have tax implications for you that you don't control as well. So they're the two big disadvantages. It's really around control and potential if you're tax planning and you didn't want to sell a bond for certain reasons. Okay, that's right. That sort of ties in with a question from Michael and he's got a concern. He said, with managed funds, there's a risk of churning by managers. How is it proposed to minimize this in a MIPS? We've thought about that one a lot because this is intended to be a portfolio that derives strong income. The portfolio management team adds value by changing the bonds in the portfolio but it's not an actively traded hedge fund type portfolio. So we've got a soft target limit of 35% on the turnover. It's a soft target because there will be market conditions where that potentially needs to be a larger amount. So there may be a circumstance where you want to move all to cash or where there's a really good opportunity that improves all the portfolios and so you want to breach that 35%. For the portfolio management team to do that, they need to go to the supervisory committee, explain their reasons and get sign off to increase the turnover over 35%. Great, that's fantastic. So there is that limit. I'm pleased to hear that. Okay, so Ron asks, this is a very good question. I really like this question, Ron. Thank you. Does the team analyze individual accounts such that if my capital appreciation on one particular bond is, say, 10% and the profit ought to be taken, do they do so or does the responsibility to arrange that fall to me? Good question. So what the portfolio management team does is they look at both the overview of all the bonds that are held across all of MIPS and make sure they're very comfortable with all the names and the value. They then also analyze the individual portfolios. And where that would happen, Ron, is where there was another opportunity to buy a new bond and they would look at what the creative value to the individual portfolios was of switching that bond and in that case, that 10% bond would be an obvious one to switch out of. Okay, excellent. Jenny's got a very good question too. She wants to know what your year end statement looks like. For example, the tax purposes, what items are detailed in the statement? So in the year end statement, it covers both the historical performance such as either three months, one year, et cetera, over time, historical performance in terms of total return and total reliance return. And then it shows you the current portfolio metrics so you can see what your current portfolio is expected to be in terms of fuel to maturity duration. It also contains all the coupons that have been paid in that year and any realized capital as well. So that's all you'll need for your tax reporting. And it clearly states the fees as well. Excellent, so it's all rolled in there. It's all in the one statement. Fantastic. Now, then I'll pass back to you. So we have Robert ask, can you roll some of your current bonds over into MIPS? Yes, you can. And as we sort of touched on before, the portfolio management team will assess that portfolio and then most bonds, I'm sure, they'll be able to move across. But an example would be foreign currency bonds can't move across. You would have, those would be sold separately if you wanted to transfer the funds in. And it's not going to be unusual really is it for people to have some funds in MIPS and some funds direct. So I think that might be quite a standard going forward. Yeah, we've already seen many investors that are choosing to, they like looking at one part of the market. They might like doing the foreign currency bonds. They do that themselves. And then they hand over the core income or income plus to the MIPS team. Other investors are concerned about inflation. So they put some money in there. And then they may be doing their own figure regionation bonds themselves. So people are using all sorts of combinations that suit them. And I guess the amount of interaction they want to have in terms of the day to day in the bond markets. And then of course we have other investors that say, I don't want to look at this at all. I would like each takeover and put in their money all into MIPS across various different programs. They're splitting their money. That sounds fantastic. One last question before we go on and it pertains to this portfolio. And Michael asks, what fees are coming out of these net income figures? Good question. So based on $250,000 investment, the total fees for the core income and the inflation linked are 0.85%. And the total fees for the income plus are 1.05%. Now that reflects the additional credit work that's done for the income plus. Excellent. I'll let you keep going with the presentation. There's a couple of other questions but we'll get to those in a minute. So now having a look at the portfolio manager's favorite bond. So as I touched on, Owen Hung, who heads up the team, has a wealth of international experience and in particular he's got a really strong background in the analyzing of the credit worthiness of companies. And he brings that expertise to assessing the bonds that his team selects for inclusion in your portfolios. So Owen's favorite bond is SET Logistics. They issued a fixed rate bond that contained 7.65% maturing on the 24th of June, 2021. This bond is in both the core income and the income plus target portfolios. So what makes Owen like this bond? Basically to summarize, he likes the industry, the business and the outlook for SET. So SET is a national model transport and logistics company. It's a well-established business with stable family management and a strong market share. It's a concentrated industry and this means that there are high barriers to entry and results in oligopoly style environment. They also have consistent and predictable revenue streams and the nature of the business leads to long-dated contracts and they have very good long-term relationships. So this is all really good for bondholders because it impacts positively on SET's ability to pay its interest when it falls due. Owen also looks to the strength of the balance sheet which indicates the ability to pay the debt at maturity and he likes the balance sheet ratios. So having established that the strength of the business balance sheet and liquidity are all good, which are the keys to the credit of the companies. We talk about credit a lot and that's what that means. And his team would spend two to three weeks looking at an individual company and doing this analysis, modeling up the balance sheet, looking at the cash flows, looking at the contracts, who their key relationships are, the length of those relationships, all that work that goes into that is what the MIPS team does on your behalf. So once they've done all of that and they like the company, they like the credit, then Owen will compare SET to other bonds in the market, other comparable bonds. And in doing so, he's identified that SET offers really good value. So the yield to maturity on SET is 7.25% and comparable bonds as to the portfolio management team for your credit are around that 5.5% to 6%. So there's a significant additional amount there for the SET bond. Great, I love to get that personal insight into the portfolio manager and how they're thinking and bonds that they like. So I'm really pleased to hear. I think SET is a very good bond. Okay, let's move on. So just to recap on the key benefits. So this goes to why we created MIPS and what it achieves for investors. It's really about convenience and simplicity. So you're handing over the management to the MIPS team, but your fixed income still driving that regular income stream for you. It's leveraging their in-depth credit and market insights. So it's that team's wealth experience that you get to tap into and you know that they're looking at your positions at all times. And of course it's active management. So it's that really important part of bond markets because they're OTC, a bond, there may be a new bond in the market. And this could be at any one of the investment banks or big four domestic banks, they may bring a new issue to market. And the team will know about that. They'll be working on it, working out whether it fits into your portfolio, assessing the relative value, and they can move very fast on your behalf. Those books off from close in 24 hours, they can make those quick decisions if the bond's appropriate for the various investment programs. So the next steps, look, it's very simple. You download and review the IEM from our website. This contains all the terms and conditions. You choose your investment program that meets your risk return requirements. So that's the core income, the income plus or the inflation limit. You can also choose a combination of programs as I mentioned. You fill out the application form and our client services team can assist with this if you've got any questions at all about the detail. Then FIC will set up a funding account and a custody account for MIPS. And you can transfer in the money or you can inspecie transfer in bonds as we've discussed. Then the PMT team, being the portfolio management team, takes over. So they'll create your portfolio and manage that for you. Finally, and this is also, is very important, you've got complete transparency. So you can see your holdings, portfolio performance. You can see all the transactions as well. We won't be sending out transaction statements because the MIPS team will be managing that, but you can see all your transaction statements online on your MIPS FIC. You can also see the valuations as well. And we're obviously, we're now using an independent pricing source to value the bonds in your MIPS portfolio and your funding account balances. So all that is contained on your MIPS FIC. And of course the income, as it's paid on the individual bonds, goes straight through to your account. So it's not like all when or the portfolio management team make a decision to pay you an income or not as they would in a managed fund. The income is yours and it is paid to you unless, is there an option to reinvest? There is an option to reinvest. So if you don't need the money at the moment, you can opt to, you tick a box on the application form and the money will be reinvested by the team and you can change that option at any time. Okay, fantastic. So just looking at this last slide here, where you can get further information. We've got a MIPS website, which has got a whole lot of information there. I think many of you have already been to this website in order to both download the PAC and register for the seminar, I'm sorry, the webinar. But if you'd like to talk to us further, please call in and speak to your dealer about MIPS. But now we might go to some more questions, I think. I've got a few, sorry. I'll run down the list, Emma. Karen asks, if you have ethical concerns about some companies, can you stipulate that these not be included in your portfolio? You can do that, but you can only do that from five million. Right. We have three investment programs predefined currently that start at $250 and I expect over time we'll expand that out. We would like in future to have foreign currency programs and I can also see over time we may have enough demand to determine that we need an ESG managed portfolio as well. But at this stage, the only way you could do that is through the customized option. Great. Michael asks, does the management fee include custodial costs? The fees I quoted were all in fees, so that was a combination of the management fee and the custodial cost. And is that for all three accounts? Is it the same fee basis for all of the three accounts? So just to recap on those, it's a combination of the management fee and the custody fee. So the core income and income plus, sorry, core income and inflation linked, it's 0.85%. And for the income plus, it's 1.05%. Okay, so it's slightly higher. Great. Joe asks, this is a great question, Joe. How does FIGS staff manage all the investment portfolios to get value for their clients? There may be many. We're hoping, Joe, that there'll be many. But that's a good question. So perhaps, Emmy, you want to address that one? Yeah, definitely. So there's a couple of ways. So we have a very good portfolio management system which allows us, or allows the portfolio management team to manage on both the macro level. So by that, I mean the aggregated bonds across everyone's portfolios. And that's really key for risk management and to make sure that the view on bonds is consistent across smaller portfolios. Then down at the individual portfolio level, they can review all those portfolios and run very complicated queries to pull out different portfolios there as well. However, I would say, yes, they're individually managed accounts. But the way they're practically managed is the team runs model portfolios and investors actually go into those model portfolios. And one or two bonds may be different. But over time, I expect that the portfolios will look similar as bonds get changed in and out of portfolios. So it's a very efficient way to manage individually managed accounts and to provide people with a direct bond portfolio that is direct. So I guess in time, for example, bonds might do very well, SET might do very well, the price might rise, and then our one may make the decision, well, it's time to switch out of SET, take the profit and invest somewhere else. So he would do that across the entire everyone's portfolio. They'd all be switched out at the same time. Would that be how it would work? Yes. But the caveat there, I would say, is that depending on what the replacement bond is, he would also be looking across the various different programs. Because it's in both the core income and the in-class. So the replacement bond may be several bonds. Yes, great. Fantastic. Okay, we have a question from Michael again. If a new bond becomes available and the manager is reluctant to dispose of any existing holdings, will the investor be contacted with additional funds? So I'm assuming there, Michael, that we have a portfolio for you with $250,000. It's invested in five, six, seven, eight bonds. And a new bond comes out which we like, but doesn't want to sell out of any existing bonds. Would we say to you, do you want to put in an extra $50,000 and have this bond to add this bond to your portfolio? I don't know that we would do that. That sounds a little bit complicated to me. No, I don't think we could do that. But I guess that would really come down to a relative value question. So what the portfolio management team would be doing is looking at the existing portfolio, the credit, and then looking at the new bonds, credit, and then looking at the relative value. So assuming the credits were the same and there was a real benefit to changing the bond, so there was additional value in terms of return, then they would switch the bonds. But if that wasn't the case, then that's how I would see the scenario where they wouldn't be switching the bond. No, okay. Ron asked, is it intended that the investor hold the portfolio for years or can the investor treat the funds like a six-month term deposit? The intention is that these are three to five year investments. So, but things come up in people's lives and we recognize that. So there is the ability, obviously, to sell down and we can do that in a very efficient manner. If it's six months, someone needed the funds again. I think one of the advantages of the new service is the fact that you can change into and out of it from a direct service. So if you have direct bonds, you can put some of your direct bonds in. If you need funds and you don't want to sell the whole of your portfolio, you can transfer it out, sell down, I think that is a real advantage that perhaps other companies can't offer at this point. A couple of other questions here, though. Heather asks, will there be change in the level of service for non-mixed clients? Well, Heather, I'm gonna answer that one and I'm going to say definitively no because the portfolio management team is quite separate to the rest of FIG and to the sales staff. So they're quite, it's quite an individual unit and so we would imagine no difference in service to you. For example, all the education and the research that we make available now, that won't change. It's just that Orwin and his team will be looking at a higher level because theoretically they'll be managing a larger sums of money. Emma, do you want to make any comment on that? Yeah, this is not meant to take away from the direct bond services at all. This is another option for those investors who would like to have someone taking over the active management of their money for a whole host of reasons. Your dealer or client representative still remains for those existing clients, still remains your point of contact for both MIPS and VDRAC bonds. So that doesn't change at all. Okay, I've got just maybe a final two questions here, Emma. Jon asks, what percentage of wholesale investors does FIG expect to move to MIPS? Jon, I can't answer that at this stage. Although, one way I think I can answer it is, I think having been to several lunches in our soft marketing mode, I think roughly a quarter of our investors were really interested in MIPS. I think for existing investors, it goes around how active they want to be. So some see it as maybe not at this point in time, they're very happy doing all the credit work themselves, the active management, talking to dealers, transacting in bonds, but they can see a future time where they no longer want to do that, and they'd like to hand over and they say MIPS is a great way to do that. Then for new investors, there may be some who, we haven't had this option previously, but who say, I don't want to become the credit expert, I like doing my equities, I don't want to do my fixed income, I'm happy to have you to do it for me. Excellent, I think that's a fantastic answer. And two last questions, one from Robert. Robert asks, if you roll your existing bonds over to MIPS, does the manager sell them or switch them over to the new bonds at current prices, or do they sell them down over a period of time to maximize your return? So I think what Robert's getting at there is, do we sell the bonds or is it a straight transfer? It can be a combination. So the first thing that happens with the need-specy transfer is the portfolio management team assesses those bonds, assuming that all the bonds move over, or actually assume four out of five move over, and the fifth bond is sold down immediately because say it's a foreign currency bond and that can't go into MIPS, so that then the proceeds would come across. The other four bonds go into MIPS, then they would assess them, and several of those bonds may form part of the portfolio and they'd be kept. The other bonds that remain would then be sold down in a managed way over time in order to then be replaced by the bonds selected by the portfolio management team. Fantastic, and just this last question from Ian. Now listen, before I ask you, Emma, if we haven't answered your questions today, someone from FIG or the managed income portfolio team will get back to you and answer you, but this last one from Ian, he's wanting to know what is the benefit of MIPS compared to a managed bond fund? Why choose MIPS over the managed bond fund? So there's several reasons, and they're really around transparency and control. So a managed bond fund can provide you access to a very large universe of bonds, but what it can't do is you don't know what you own. And for a lot of investors, they're looking for that level of transparency. You're also, you're pulled, it's a pulled investment in a managed fund, whereas this is not MIPS, it's a segregated investment, so it's in your name, so you have control over that. It also provides you with that access to income, and that's the interest payments or the coupon streams, and you can see those on your online portal and you can plan around the income that's going to be coming in on MIPS, whereas in a managed account, you don't have that either transparency or control over your investment. Fantastic, I just want to thank you very much for presenting today, Emma. I found it really informative. I hope everyone listening did as well. I'd encourage you all to go onto the MIPS space onto that website, fig.com.au, backslash MIPS private and have a look around. We're very happy to call you or arrange a meeting if you're interested in finding out more about MIPS. We'll certainly be happy to have that meeting, but this really concludes the presentation today. Thank you all very much for joining, and we look forward to you hopefully joining us again in the near future. This now concludes the presentation. Good morning, have a good rest of your day. Great, thank you.