 Episode 146 have a black you know I'm saying appreciate everybody who've been tapping into the past episodes Appreciate everyone who tapped into episode 145 you feel me tap in with all of them You feel me we got a lot of good content You know I'm saying and just like a book could be reread and re-listen to you know I'm saying so tap in go to our patreon patreon.com slash help like five our SoundCloud Spotify Apple podcast wherever you stream your podcast that we is at be filming but We need that support We need that real support, you know So if you're driving right now pull over and sign up to our patreon patreon.com slash help like pot And support the people you know I'm saying we got a great episode in store with us Which y'all for y'all today? You know I'm saying we got brother Darius here with us You know for those of you don't know he's a steamed poet organizer here with us at people's programs in the We're very excited to to have him on this podcast and really you Just talk that talk, you know I'm saying Darius how you doing? Cool, man. I did to be here appreciate y'all for having me. I said it's dog. It's talk that talk Did you ever think you know we was gonna be on a podcast together when you first heard about people's programs or first I heard about stuff up maybe on Twitter zoom Nah, nah, not at all, especially just seeing y'all before pulling up to people's programs Just seeing y'all is like Twitter figures and people that I was following Twitter Twitter figures Twitter fingers, you know I'm saying but hey How you feeling today I'm cool, you know caffeinated Got out to water my plants today today with the watering day So it's a little a little calmer a little clearer on those days and I'm plants gonna need that water today Especially with this heat that's been coming through this late summer. We haven't right now. Oh, yeah I just want to tell people who might not know Especially if you don't like plants at the crib outdoor plants You the water your plants early in the morning before the sun comes out or late at night when the sun's going down Do not water your plants in the middle of the day. They will get burned free game They will be burned Burn and you know, it's depending on how much you water in the water might just evaporate So yeah when the water early on in the day, come on farming tips, you know, I got a baby green thumb But before we get into it, I know boss has spoken a little bit about your background But you can give us some more insight into, you know, who you are what you do and Your role at people's programs The show So my name is Darius. I'm a poet Organized with people's programs. I'm a member of the Central Committee and the land team star people's farm Essentially what that means is facilitating work days with folks come out full up They can share that The crops stay alive in between those days They're really just working with the land to build, you know, a more positive relationship with this so that we can turn out as many crops as possible, but also Build up our skills for, you know, sovereignty independent on the land And then, you know, supporting all programs that I can people's program started off with people's breakfast Oakland But pretty much, you know, whatever program I can pull up to and then Yeah, my boy be doing some good work. It's really good work. Yeah, bro. It's been dope to see your process, you know, I'm saying from Coming to community learnings to volunteering to becoming a member to now becoming a Part of the Central Committee, you know, I'm saying you definitely put in a lot of work And you're someone who I definitely early on had respect for just based off of how you just kept showing up and working Working and sweating, you know, I'm saying It's definitely dope You know, I'm saying to witness your growth in a certain type of way, you know I'm saying from the outside looking in and then obviously now developing more of a Comrade relationship, you know, I'm saying over the years But it's a question that I think I Get in that people genuinely get kind of a lot. Sometimes it's like did you have this Moment where you first felt like you got political or did you have like a certain defining moment that happened in your life? Where you're like, I know this This got to change, you know, I'm saying I got to do something you feel me. Did you have like a moment like that or? Yeah, it was really a couple and they happen and like within three years of each other Something like that. There was There was a woman I went to school in Ohio. I grew up in Ohio There was a district that was right next to a black district and it was of course separated by a highway So I was in this mostly white district and it got into the point where our schools offering like a hundred dollars per person Just niche on other people that didn't live in a district. So really seeing some of my closest friends get kicked out the You know the district next door and essentially like dissolving those relationships But there was a woman a mother named Kelly Williams Bolard and she had sent her elementary school kids to our district And she was using her grandparents address and our grandparents living in the district But you know, she didn't and she had some their kids over and they found her out And they you know put her in jail and was trying to hit her with a felony And so my mom was a part of national action network at the time I'll shark and sting and so, you know, she called in they came out made the big crew rock and all of that But my mom had asked me to write a piece for that before then I was writing You know, I was very much on the the you know, the whole tip kicker, you know We was kings and queens reading very little but having you know, I found out about Egypt and was like gas You know, we came from Roy So what you tell me you ain't a king my brother Nah, nah, brother Someone someone said what time, you know, we don't associate with that kingdom stuff because it was in kings and queens that was selling us off And as long as we are where we are Yeah, yeah, but me with the peasants. What age group was this? Oh, what age you was in high school or yeah I was a junior in high school and Yeah, but at that point it was like I had to search Like information about what was going on And not to be off of like feeling vibes That's all I was like wicking up the laws and Ohio and stuff like that and I came to realize that there was a system at play You know before it was like this condition sucks We ought to do better and stuff like that But that was really the first time that I came to see like this system playing out and impacting this individual person But really, you know, like I said, I saw my friends being impacted by it too So it's really having an awareness of there's something else going on even if I couldn't articulate it Of course after the you said what? Yeah, so that was one of the Your district and he said you had to work Yeah, so I was like 2010 2011 then I'm in college 2012 and Trayvon Martin has murdered And so like our local NAACP our canvas NAACP did a you know a bunch of stuff and I was my first time going through a march and You know, here people talk about what was happening and put it into more of a historical context Not, you know, a real one there real helpful on the thing. This is this has got to stop such stuff So I was in when Mike Brown was murdered I was the president of a poetry org on campus and so when they like got together as leaders of organizations I was at the table with like the leader from BSU leaders from NAACP and all of that and one of the first things they said was that This wasn't about race and so whatever we needed to do whatever we were gonna do We shouldn't make it about race and I was kind of like kind of push me away from whatever whatever sort of Yeah, somebody from NAACP and it was like the canvas NAACP, so it's not like a national job through Not really a difference, but I'm you shoot the NAACP. Oh here was having pro-police protest in front of the courthouse You boys somewhere sick They said the National Association for certain people I'm weak Go ahead brother. Yeah, man. That was that was pretty much my like My my trajectory into really having to figure out what was going on and what I wanted to do about it So like I left that room and started, you know paying more attention to What was happening in Ferguson or what people were doing because it was like, you know I saw the people around me was essentially on bullshit. So it was like, you know What are people doing nationally and I saw, you know, the the Ferguson front line folks really getting active. So it's like, you know I need to Mm-hmm. So me and the friends went out there, you know tapped in with lost voices It was a group that was like marching day in and day out in Ferguson, you know camera crews or not And you know really keeping the energy moving and we talked to them and asked them a simple question I was like, you know, what can we do? We're going back to Michigan in a couple days We're trying to Support y'all and like, you know, really make this thing pop and they said take this bet, you know Look at what we doing go back home and get active and stuff like that from there started, you know moving into a Confrontational relationship with the condition and so confrontations with Campus speed with administration and all that all with an effort to like, you know Really change what was going on because folks have been complaining about, you know Black students in our condition there for as long as I've been a freshman, but I'll say those three moments for show I'll feel that the show I Remember teff po was from Ferguson. It was doing a lot of like work up there He came to Cal and I was a student. He's like what y'all doing y'all here in Berkeley y'all got to do something You know, so I definitely resonate a lot with that In the past you spoke in a little bit to how come in the People's programs community learning sessions had played a role in Helping politicize you and giving you some of that analysis Can you talk a little bit more about that process and what it's been like now that you're going from my community learnings through the membership process to now Lead in certain cadre sessions for P as well Show I really hadn't even considered that we you know, you know coming from that first community landed, but At 2020 came to the first people's programs community learning and What I remember is just seeing folks, you know for lack of better phrase talking that talk I had seen you know speeches from people before and you know people are I admired I was like, huh It sounds good, you know, they're funny but I had never really heard an analysis of the condition and especially not a Suggestion of what could be done about it including me especially right and so like folks like Mark Lamar Hill I like come to my campus and you know, I've seen he's probably figure saying, you know, this is an issue and all of that and so like the community learning what stood out to me was that There was a very clear very, you know Succinct and research analysis of what was happening in Oakland I don't know how it connected to history, but also what I could do immediately after and so at the end of The event there was a book list and I'm like that like I had never seen folks, you know talking like that Say less, you know, I need to read books before then, you know, I really didn't have a relationship the reading or study And so like went to the book story immediately after I think it was most books and revolution books and grab the Sada Revolutionary suicide writings on the wall by mumia. We want freedom and I think that was it for that first grab I really got into reading. I didn't start pulling up people's programs and tell some months later But, you know, immediately after pretty much maybe a month later I read a sada and my whole, you know, my whole perspective shifted and I just realized how much I didn't know and that I couldn't really be Who I was before how it was before which is not a reader I was talking to somebody like two days ago And they were comparing themselves to me and they were saying, you know, I don't really have the years and years of reading I had to correct. I was like, bro I started reading That's crazy because I would have thought you started reading like way before that that's wild to hear I don't know if you told me this before but yeah, for sure picture and I remember when he told me this I was like I'm like, all right, it's proof. Okay. Yeah, cuz you I remember you tell me the story there is I'm like, okay, you came to the community. But before that I was like, okay, I figured you was doing some reading Yeah, you know, I'm saying they're like, nah, I wasn't really real. I'm like, okay That's that you got to watch out for them because they got away with words I've been speaking in front of people on stages for so long and was not reading a book It was terribly irresponsible But you know, that's that's that's the thing. That's the industry. But yeah, the y'all see the Only on zoom and stuff y'all see the books behind me. I had nothing in books before 2020 You be really like working them books up to you feel me hella notes in it I will you know page dividers color coordinated stuff, you know, I'm saying my are you feel me like I Got to man. I'm a visual learner. So if I don't like engage with it in that way I'm gonna forget whatever whatever I just read Man, I know we have a question later on down the line around the importance of joint organizations, but I Think what's coming to my mind right now as we talk about your uh, I Guess like your pathway to growth and Participation in the organization. I think that specifically contradicts some of the Um National discourse around not joining organizations or organizations not working. I guess could you speak a little bit today? What's been your experience? Yeah, I um, I think on the the reading to there's just it's been helpful to Because I'm action oriented like I described earlier was just like what can I do? What can I do in all of those those situations? So what has been helpful is that this study is not an isolation from action And so from jump there was a just even the community learning It was like we're here gathering organizing and here's this book list So the theory and action and theory and practice going hand-in-hand is essential just for me and how I am But I know that it's also been helpful to see other people struggling other people learning other people reading And to engage in that process collectively just on soon, you know, like this is this is easier done as a group easier than just especially going through finance and you know other heavy texts like that but Outside of that to see people committing themselves to the same ideology the same objectives the same goal and to then to engage that process on a personal level is is Clarifying I think that's the best word for it because without that say we didn't have the action We was the book club or say we had all of the action that didn't have you know This this study that was going on and people allowing themselves to change through the process. I think that change would be Interrupted it would be Much less impactful Without either of those things or so what I've seen over the years is people who are committed Who are ever-changing and who are you know active, you know and getting into books getting into organizing getting into action So, you know, yeah, I only know how to How to come at the question because I feel like I've changed so drastically not just from reading books But understanding the necessity of it, you know humility, you know My confidence is shifted because I come to understand myself as a part of a Collective and I can't be out here talking about, you know The people have the capacity to change the people this the people that and not Understand myself as a part of that process, right? And so I've had to change how I see myself how I talk to myself because I wouldn't talk to you know My neighbors like that I wouldn't talk to my comrades like that And so I think even having that that mirror and having those folks that are linked arms with you in this process Change and not just but not in this work that is repetitive is essential So when we talking about Organizing we talking about change we talking about a protracted thing We talking about a changing thing and I think without either theory without an organization to house that change to house that process It's a It's a loss you I got one more follow-up question You mentioned like humility and I wonder what role like humility and patience have played in your ability to Give the organization time to grow as well as give yourself time to grow because a lot of the discourse that I see really Well, I mean we spend a lot of time on college campuses, you know talking to different Groups and then also seeing the discourse online But it seems like a lot of people suffer from a Lack of patience with individuals and lack of patience with a collective So what role has you know like humility and patience played in your ability to engage in you know Three years of three going on four years of building on people's programs Show I would say I would say that there are people that I know who were really organized and they were really harmed in some terrible ways in the past couple years and the failures of movements and there is much more Of what you talked about which is impatience and folks pulling up to organizations expecting them to be ready made expecting them to be You know the perfect solution to their problems as opposed to seeing that you know, you have that you have to be Hate the phrase really but me the change you want to see but seeing themselves in part of that process For me, it's taken up. I think the first step is trust In the organization that people leading the org because if you don't You know fake that or have that from jump when you come to make suggestions Or you come to see the failures of an org soon as you pull up You might you know discount that or you might attribute that to something broader Oh, this is just because there are this group of people leading or this is just another example of them people You know what I mean like that type of stuff and so Having to have like space patience and humility and see myself do like you know I at least they are outside doing the thing at the very least I think for me pulling up Whatever thoughts I had whatever critiques I had it was like well shit that you know They've been doing this thing for a minute which isn't to discount me But they clearly have something to offer and I think that I might have a critique I might have an idea that means I have something to offer to and neither of us For our gaps and for our lack of the other thing is is less than So that's been a part of the patience is essential and I think studying history has been helpful in that and seeing that What what what has led people to like breaking off and starting other orgs rather than strengthening other organizations what has led folks to you know cancelling for lack of better word or you know throwing folks away has been a Disengaging and struggle with each other and I think that's them That's the most uncomfortable process for people to step to and say like I think this this is what's happening You know, how can we you know address this or maybe this idea that I'm having? It isn't time for this There's a different phase of struggle that this idea is for or you already tried that You know that type stuff and being open to the fact that either it was already tried If it's a good idea and if solid and resources are there it'll be implemented and that the folks that that have gaps that are You know, maybe failing in whatever ways that you might see they're humans, you know But and in this society is capitalist society nine times out of ten working multiple jobs and still trying to organize And so seeing them as human, you know yourself as a human in a process then everybody's ability to change in that is essential Yeah, you know, I think that's important because I think a lot of times people come in the organizing spaces in I Mean like Jalil will say and we are on liberators, especially we're like sometimes like students like students will come in Oftentimes with some type of Marxist one in this background and have this understanding Oh, I know it all and not being humble and patient is at the same time You know, so I think that's the important points you brought up is like just being a having trust being humble And having patience, you know, and I think for you you give a good example I think to organizers in general around the country But especially like within our cadre because like you were saying you came in at 2020 Not reading you came to a community learning not reading not really engaged and then within, you know Three years rose from a volunteer to a member to a central committee and someone who is dedicating, you know Was studying a lot, you know, so I think you give a good example of like like what trust patience Humility and a commitment looks like, you know, so I think people in our cadre can learn a lot from that Oh, yeah, and a lot of people I would again if we know how economic systems tend to supersede ideology or be connected to ideology this very individualistic and I Guess that this individualistic in this backward negative system of capitalism Creates that type of ideology in us to where we going to organize in spaces and some of the times the first thing we look For is like what a person is doing wrong what a group is doing wrong or when an individual comes in the first thing We look at what the individual was doing wrong versus I guess being having that mindset of like let me give things time to figure out what's going on to make more sense Why does the person act this way? Why does the organization operate this way? And if we can all come in With a little bit more paid with a little bit more patience a lot of these Personal problems that tend to be masses political problems will be alleviated and be eradicated you know what I'm saying it But again, this is a system that definitely doesn't want you to feel definitely doesn't want you to feel patient or be patient exhibit patients and then you talked about making mistakes and That's what a lot of people don't realize like a lot of folks Their work can't be criticized because they don't have any work to criticize you ain't doing Of course you come to us you don't come into a meeting you spend a month with us You're gonna be able to point out all the things we some holes in our shits because we doing so much right But I think about a quote from Ho Chi Minh He says only idle people do not make mistakes, but I write to make mistakes by practicing them by doing nothing That's how I like to move through people's programs So you know now we're Transitioning a little bit. You know you're talking about, you know poetry man being a poet man So for those of y'all don't know Darius got a book out y'all definitely got a tap in Darius Where can you get that book? Button poetry comm but also, you know, wherever you get your books got a bookshop that or anywhere else Yeah, I'm just making sure you plug that because you know people's first thing usually is going straight to Amazon All right, so I want to get people that uh that direct directly, you know, but can you talk about a When you first got into poetry And also, you know, how you're writing has evolved over these years and How your poetry is evolved over these years The show so I first got into poetry Like fourth grade. There was a poetry unit Mrs. Cross class Normally my mom got called in for all types of class clownery But I did really good on this poetry project and she called my mom in and was like she showed her the little little booklet I was like this this thing happened to doing this That's all mom was really on me from there to keep writing and keep Expressing myself in that way. So you was a clown slash poet. That was your fourth grader My book was a reformed class clown poetry And then like high a middle school I would say I was writing a lot of poems for like family my mom grandma writing love notes and stuff like that and then started to to write about Emotions that were coming up and trying to make sense of things I think still what's true to these days that poetry is where I express myself the the smoothest I think that I'm most Clear when I'm writing a poem about a thing where there's something that I think or something that I feel It's on like middle school. It was really just clarifying those emotions things that were going on in the home stuff like that high school being a part of this Mentor organization that kind of introduced me to My blackness in some form. I started writing more things about that And so, you know, I was definitely on like I said, hope that fits We got to stop killing ourselves You know, we are better than this type stuff. I started writing in that way Some of that is true, but go ahead Yeah, 100% I mean like I think I'm not the voice because the voice is what you know, the caricature of it where like that's that's the only side that's being told This is a lot more I missed the whole analysis. Yeah, that's a fact, but it's not I see what you're saying. Yeah. Yeah So and then you know in college kind of both of those things came to play started doing spoken word poetry slams stuff like that got more into performance and Yeah, the content pretty much stayed the same right now feelings right now, you know, the things that I'm seeing going on in the world I would say that my poetry really didn't come with an analysis until I had one which is, you know, a true of art overall I think sometimes we could think about trying to project ourselves into having a perspective and in a particular piece of work But it's really just a reflection of who you are what you doing And so until I really started to read books that you know My my poem pretty much centered on the things that were wrong and the things that were happening to us and how bad it hurts Right, and I really didn't have any sort of solutions So I started to understand that there were some stuff. So I started engaging with people's programs So I would say the a major shift in the past couple years has been, you know, my writing both in clarifying my enemies clarifying Who my people are and clarifying like what what can be done? What might could be done with our condition the situation rather than just writing Pieces that detail the struggle which is important in detail like what's happening to us like that kind of reporting that kind of Art is super necessary and it's important for us to be able to articulate what else there is, you know To both humanize our people and humanize the oppressor like these folks is just folks with addresses Blood flowing through their veins and folks who make any decisions and they too, you know Have a mortality this this system and the people facilitating it have a mortality Can you give us an example of a Well, give us an example, but also speak to the importance of Poets being parts of movements rather than doing that what you just claimed right observing from a distance For sure. I would say an exemplary example of this is a Miri Baraka Going back to what we're talking about earlier with humanity and patience going through his life You read his autobiography you read his collections of essays even his poem You'll see some problematic stuff come up through there Which you'll also see is his commitment to organization, you know, he was never just saying this is what should happen He was outside with you know, that's why he was building up the thing at the same time He was talking about it and he faced the consequences for doing that thing, too So we're talking about the black arts refrigerator The black United Front eventually the Republic of New Africa You know all types of collectives and organizations. That's not even counting, you know, the little coalitions and Different black power conferences that popped up You know, he was a part of this is a great example because Without step into those organizations like I said earlier all we have is An individualized or maybe even collective expression of the pain I can't say what there is to be done if I'm not actively involved, you know I might get off into some dogmatic This is what we should do, you know Type stuff from a theoretical text or from a book But if I'm not tapped in with the material organization that is active that is doing a thing What I suggest other people or even my analysis of what's happening is limited and you know possibly even outright fall So it's a hell of important to to be tapped in and be pulling up because art has a Power has a power power to translate a power to inspire a power to inform the state understand Understands it and knows this and engages in this but we're talking about the creation of the Iowa writers workshop The money that's going that goes into the propaganda with the pig shows Military industrial complex movies all of this stuff And so at all times we're being inundated with these images and it's propaganda and it's art from the state Even if we don't recognize it as art from the state I was singing a song like two weeks ago that I haven't heard since I was ten years old That's that's some effective art from effective propaganda And so like we you know, we really have to be creating this counter thing that we have something sustainable That's so that we can Like I said really be tapped into to the solutions into what's next I'm gonna send you Well, I don't actually have the I'm gonna see if I can find the PDF, but there's like some essays From a Ho Chi Minh that I will send you where he's giving feedback to different writers I want to say in Vietnam, but he was also I think he was in like the French Communist Party and shit Like he's bounced around as it pertains to like international anti-imperialist movement, so I can't tell you exactly what Who he's writing to at the time, but he has a lot of feedback on art propaganda, especially around writing, right? He says a sober concise style prevails over an emphatic one If your writing is to be if your writing is intended to be propaganda It must be understood by all and then my favorite one is the the magnificence of our expressions very often conceal the confusion of our ideas And so I'm gonna send you this shit cuz I think I think you will fuck with it So yeah Thomas and card did a yes I think my favorite quote about the role or responsibility of artists, you know I just like to quote me as Simone and you know say that our Responsibility is to reflect the time but they kind of skip over the ones that really tell us we need to be doing something And Thomas and card said that if we writing for people then people need to know we writing about them Essentially and saying that writer's responsibility and role is to be Topped in to the desires the dreams of the masses of people that they claim to be writing for and so like before You say you're writing for a community do the folks know you do they know who you are and can they can they ingest your work? How has being a member you know and people's programs affected your poetry Show I can give a specific example But we'll say that that the entire third section. I don't know if I told you this but the entire third section of the book is really From pulling that's people's programs. There was a poem Capital capital. I think that was the first that might have been the first or second home that got contributed to the little pamphlets I used to put out And it was the invitation to write something for people's programs that had me questioning My style of writing what I was writing about and it pretty much shifted and created that that entire third section of the book but The way that it shifted and changed is that I started to really look outside And to really take account of what was happening into who not just think about thinking about myself as a black person and everything That I say and speak is then for black people because I you know, I Identify with them. So like really what is the condition of you know, new Africans and Oakland, you know houses folks in Oakland and what was going on and I felt a responsibility through it to kind of Accurately reflect in that way in a way that I hadn't before and so it kind of I don't really know what how to name the process It was like a new muscle getting flexed or Different perspective on writing and its usefulness because you can't really write propaganda If you're not tapped in with an organization and prior to then I hadn't seen myself really as a part of a thing writing You know for for a particular purpose besides my perspective and so people's programs really allowed for me to Put my poetry to use in a way that I think is most effective again Art as a part of an organization, even if everything that I write isn't essentially utilized by people's programs being a member now You know now I am a billboard for the organization ability billboard for ideology and the politics and so Being able to take it out in that way has a has a different way carried with it. So the analysis that we have in You know the political grounding circles and the the PE events and all of that Comes through either naturally because I've been studying because that's who I am now or because I feel a responsibility to be You know propagandizing and agitating people to let them know this is you know, the complicated nature of what's going on This is what an election means and what it doesn't mean This is what a former president being arrested means and what it doesn't mean for the most vulnerable of our people We spoken about it a little bit Throughout the you know, pop, but can you give you know a specific advice to a person who was looking to join? You know a revolutionary organization the show I would say if you looking for Revolutionary org and you know, you come across one that you think might be it See what their program is. I think any any organization claiming to be a revolutionary organization has to have a Strategy for it right now as in this is what we're up to this is what we're doing Not what we think but like what we're doing right now And this is how this it contributes overall to our goals And so this is what it's happening at this stage as we continue these are the things that we have set out for ourselves It's important to that sex Jargon, you know these these words of like anti-imperialist and you know, even word phrases like the masses and You know all this other this other stuff they can say say the words say the words liberation So I've been seeing all that the question should be what are they doing? You know, what is how does that attach to the goals overall? I would say also that There's got to be a Process for change both for the organization and so like you if it's an organization has 10 15 years in a game You could be asking yourself what is what has changed over time? Are they still doing that same that same thing they was doing 10 years ago? It's just you know, they got that same table setting up on the same block and haven't really You know switch stuff haven't expanded To their members haven't changed their their way of thinking or how thinking applies to their actions and things like that And also is there a process for change for people? I think that a revolutionary organization both has to be changing Not only with the time, but in you know response to the terrain and it has to have some sort of Process for people to be changed through engaging, you know against just to use myself as an example as we hear You know having a process for someone to come to an organization and be one way and be able to transform into a committed person for that that that person becomes a PE leader or you know, just another a member who pulls up the Their responsibilities, whatever they may be so that's that process for our plan for at least Those things need to be a revolutionary organization and I will say back to the humility thing again if it's a revolutionary or they are Interested and invested in criticism both self-criticism and overall and that means that you have something to offer even if it's just questions even if you have you know, a Misunderstanding of what revolution is that organization has something to gain by being able to clarify it to you and having having to clarify Through their propaganda through their political education process, whatever it is So thinking about culture, you know What would you say is the importance of culture in developing revolution so I would say that culture is how a society reinforces or reiterates itself So that being the case if you understand Revolution as a complete transformation of society We are building up a counterculture to the point where it can replace the culture The social political and economic system that exists now going from capitalism to Socialism and I mean that we have to be building that up right now finish and this stuff happens You know, there will be no just randomized though. It may be spontaneous It won't be a randomized revolution if we are unprepared our counterculture of being committed people of being collective people of being people who study history Who apply it to our terrain? Folks who are who are loving who are caring? You know, I mean we have to start being those people right now creating that culture so that it can start to build because if it does not Start somewhere that we don't you know, we don't build the thing at all It can't it can't really grow and so culture is a huge part of it So it's not the entire thing and a revolutionary struggle it's a the creation of alter identities and also an analysis and a war of this identity that we've been Subject to is colonized identity. So it's starting with who becoming new people so that we can build out new systems at the same time We can't build a new system if we have the same old same old people, you know As good as we could call it as a egalitarian as we might throw a name at it. We the same old exploitative individualistic You know materialistic kind of people then we all end up in the same spot Even if it looks different at first the culture is super important because we have to start reiterating start to build Start to reinforce the alternative that carries us through both the social political and economic Revolutionary struggle and transformation through that as we talk about this transformation, I think it falls at a very timely situation in this so-called nation of the United States of America Where the election year is upon us and many of us will be misled and Participation in democracy will be Created for the masses and so, you know, what are your thoughts on the electoral process, you know specifically around the presidency And what role have you seen it play in establishing democracy in this country? Hmm? I would say when I think about this question, I think about the Lowndes County Freedom Organization and that How they understood and started to clarify black power It was like, you know, they've taken over a system and I think what can be learned about What elections mean or don't mean and how they're engaged in here? We can look at what they went through there And so the start of this this process the organizing that they were doing down there It wasn't let's start propping up these individuals. It was a mass education Campaign, so like this is what these people do. This is what the system is what it does Well, I'm in a changing of a campaign based on the fact that most of those folks were illiterate So they had to come at it from a certain perspective It isn't a big up electoral processes, but to say like looking at now How many of us can really articulate what what any of these people who are running for any sort of office are about and I think that's a note of our political underdevelopment All right, well, well, here's the price never placed in building up the wall now, but you know, it's cricket on that front But yeah, the way that these processes play out is really just to engage people in Feeling like they have contributed to a society that is constantly taking from them without any feeling Like we're doing something with elections. I think that we would be outside a lot more often But you know, it's really the most effective reform tool because it's already set up to take two years or four years As there is this like take action and then wait kind of campaign That's a that's pushed off on people the way that it's been used to Take away democracy to like give the facade of democracy is to again take all of our energy away from Organizing the propping up campaigns and paying attention to our long debates Again, so, you know, just waiting once people get in office. Oh, they need four more years that we just need to wait and see and All this other stuff while, you know, these these presidents get more and more evil That's the as the days go on more and more effective Which I think is partially due that us turning away from this and not really paying attention to what's happening in the world Our inability to challenge what's happening on a national or global scale Yeah, so, you know as it pertains to eradicating exploitation and capitalist imperialist oppression Do you see, you know? Organizations that might identify as revolutionary backing presidential candidates like This person named Cornell West as part of the process I'll say what confuses me About that is just some questions to ask. What is the the base that Cornell West is responsible to? Who was it that said, you know what in order for us to be affected? We need you to to jump out as president should he you know win a presidency or whatever Who is what is the group that's gonna hold him? Any sort of accountable and also what does it mean to be president? You know, and just some some questions to ask I think in terms of eradicating oppression I'm skeptical of anybody who takes a podium a platform and does not tell people to organize. That's that's a very basic red flag for me It's anybody that gets on the stage and says they people just need to love each other or they say people just need to vote I see it all as as similar evils and that you have the ability to tell people To be leading people down a a road to solving their own problems rather than waiting for you to ascend to a to a platform Engaging in supporting a national Engaging in supporting a president of the so-called united states in terms of eradicating oppression and solving conditions is Strange and I think that it I can Strange I would say that it that is strange and again, I question What people are doing, you know, what is what is the program because here, you know We could say it's not just the things that we're writing But the actions that we're taking might necessarily be in contradiction to engaging our time and something like that But if a person tells you they're committed to Ending capitalism and establishing pan-Africanism or communism What part of the dialectic is elect the electoral process? Would that be considered part of it? This electoral process, nah Yeah, and I say again it comes back to what was what's missing like this is a at the very least we could say this is a Premature a step, you know at the very most we could say this is a contradiction to people's politics or Any sort of Belief in a mass-based anything. I don't understand again coming back to the question of where you are presenting How can you have a mass talk about the masses and the people and all that? And the folks really don't know what your presidency or what your what your representation would mean for them or mean to them That's a what have you done for them over the last, you know 40 years How have you been a how have you been a beacon? Representation for them. How have you worked to meet their material needs? How have you worked to build? Your anti-capitalist your anti-fascist. How have you worked to destroy the empire to present date? Come on That's what for me, you know, those are the type of questions we got to ask What program? Yeah, you know, or is it just follow-ups getting arrested? What organization has been developed very tricky times we're living in man and Strange We gotta we gotta, you know Always provide clarity in the moment. I'm saying we can't be stuck in the 60s 70s 80s 90s early 2000s is 2023 We have to have an analysis that reflects that as much as you do have to give things time to pan out You don't have to ignore the objective reality that's been presented to you through history or even in contemporary times You know like, okay, historically they haven't done anything or historically. This is how they've combated the empire or lack there of Uh contemporary. This is what they're saying. Like I mean All of us know how to play odds, you know, I mean we're scientists Yeah And we use that as a guiding way to make a prediction and hypothesize What's gonna happen next? That's an important question besides, you know taking a podium and a platform But I think even that like a lot of us don't even understand that there can be something built But that's such an important question. What have you built? You know, you've been around this long where where are You know, what is the What are your wins? You know, I mean besides the personal, you know scuffles here and there institutions that you've had where, you know You may have been called out for your stances You know what qualifies you to be able to say you can uh build this thing I mean, but even for us even, you know, uh Because you get some people who have done things historically who can point to actual historical wins, right? Who say like I've done this I've supported these movements, uh, but it's like, okay In the last let's say decade. What have you done to combat if you're saying I'm going to uh I'm here to put it into the western european Resto your western euro american empire. Okay, what have you done to combat that the last 10 years? How have you combated african? How have you combated uh the war in iraq and the sanctions on iran in the middle the rest of the middle east? How have you combated? Uh the embargo on cuba Right. What would have how have you fought to free palestine? over the last decade And why the sudden change or if you had what what what was the catalyst for your sudden change of heart? What is your catalyst to thinking america can save your catalyst to run for the united states of america? to become the commander in chief What is and even if the even if i mean dairies made a point earlier right like, okay Sometimes the people don't because their time is already arrested as a result of capitalism of of the economic system of capitalism That designs your 24-hour day for you Whether you feel like you have some freedom you really don't right your time is already arrested So most people don't really really have the time nor capacity to ask these questions Uh anyone who was dedicated to actually leading the people and wanting the people to participate in their ability to uh One of the people to have clarity and understanding so that they can fully participate in their ability to contribute to a so-called nation They should be given these people the answers without them even having to ask the questions You should be presenting like okay. This is what i've done. This is my plan. This is how i've attacked these things over the last 10 years not just Uh, you know use the buzzwords and play on people's emotions And that's the sickest thing about this misleadership class and that's why i think they want to heal Because they play on people's emotions straight up Straight up they they attack vulnerable people And the masses is the vulnerable people because of the masses Uh, don't have health care the masses don't have access to uh Healthy foods the masses are unemployment You know, it's predatory in parasitic It's devilish especially because they understand exactly what's going on and exactly what they're satanic By definition, man. I will consider satanic That's why i say they going to heal you pointed to Like the responsibility uh, uh or to who are, uh, clarifying themselves are trying to be uh leadership and I think it just comes back again to having the alternative having something else for people to spend their time Doing because again, if you don't have a program a platform a plan Um, you can look at what court in the west is doing and say well, shit at least you're doing something You know all things a whole host of shit gets termed as you know, but it's a whole host of shit Well, shit at least you're doing something, you know all things a whole host of shit gets termed as you know, positive Or as like what could be Um in in the long run a good thing if we don't have any sort of other thing that we're doing the other thing So I having a material program that you're engaged in not only allows for yourself to look at like What should we be spending our time doing but also when you talking to other folks like Okay, they're doing that thing over there again tomorrow, you know, niggas still gonna be hungry So, you know, what are we doing to you know, materially change the thing and being able to point folks not just away from What they doing over there that puppet show but to bring them back to the thing here and like here is what we should be spending our time Yeah Well, y'all don't got to worry about us over here at hella black and giving corner with west a platform is boycott We boycott zytus We boycott neoliberalism, but uh Appreciate you joining us today, bro. I thoroughly enjoyed this No, that appreciate y'all for having me. You a good conversation is bro. You got a future in this All those years of poetry and paid off Not real sure that's my resume