 So I first of all really want to thank Amina Abowaji for her role in making sure that this panel happened So when the conference was proposed at people putting in proposals It was noticed that there was a gap particularly addressing anti-black racism And so this panel was something that was intentionally put in to make sure that that gap was addressed So thank you to Adelina Sheila for recognizing that and also I really want to thank the work of Amina for bringing that forward as well I also want to say that Angela Simmons was supposed to be on this panel She has another commitment but There was a woman as well, you know speaking so She if you want if you need to know about her work the most important thing Maybe that you may know about is the head talk today North press and land titles paper that she wrote and that has resulted in a review in the province of that land So even though she's not here. I really want to honor her for her work Before we get started with the panel I did just want to read you a couple of things so since people knew this prison law conference was happening They called me with their own agendas that they shot thought should be on the agenda This is people from prison So I'm going to tell you some of the stuff that they thought that should be addressed some of which has been addressed some of which Maybe hasn't so one black prisoner said involuntary transfers that he hoped that we talked about that And he said everything that happens to us when we're black is involuntary So that the whole construct is involuntary. He also noted in his file It says he is not yet a member of any extremist groups So He questioned what that meant and I said does that mean is that because they're talking to the emomb or is it because you're talking to me like Which one is it both? Which one of that is that so that was something also gang membership One person in solitary confinement said I just want to see natural light and maybe a mirror So I can see myself once in a while and said that you know what I look like more than I know what I look like They said can you talk about the male being photocopied and black people said that the So in in Burnside and now I know the provincial prisons when you get male They photocopied before they give it to you including family pictures which come to you with the faces folded And if you're black often you can't even see like the the faces of anybody at all And of course a lot of people now are not asking for pictures because they don't want their kids to be handled Like the photos to be handled scanned in they don't know what's happening with those scans and copies So they're not getting family pictures anymore. So they said that they said Can you talk about the phones as always the increased lockdowns and the expansion of lockdowns? The scanners both the drug and the body scanners particularly is the law around refusing the body scanners they wanted to know and a couple of other things they said One person said I boycott the disciplinary process so that every time that they're Discipline they don't even bother going to the hearings because they said it's a kangaroo court So they don't bother participating and one other person pointed out in his file It says he is the leader of the Afro Canadian group in the prison So those are some of the issues that they brought up around what they're experiencing. So I wanted I wouldn't qualify I just wanted to share those as well And so that some of those we have been discussing some of them We may not discuss but I wanted to make sure that their voices on what they wanted to heard was heard All right, so I'm L. I'm moderating this panel. So going this way. So we have babu and bejo I don't do official introductions. I know babu. I think he's just an extremely inspirational and Amazing person that I'm just happy to have on this panel babu will be speaking about his experiences next to that Robert Wright Who has a kitty pen in his hand? That was my bride for being on the panel two people So Robert Wright may be most known to people in the legal community through the cultural reports Which I know he'll be speaking about but also beyond that Robert is just such a force in the community such a loving force somebody who tends to our mental health and our needs When I said I'm just gonna make you be on this panel. He said anything for you sister So that's the kind of person Robert is so I'm really blessed to have him and then Trevor McGeagan Some of you may be asking the obvious question wait, so this is like a black panel, but like there's a white lure Because cultural competency in these issues can't just be on black people So then we discuss it and it's like, okay, we're gonna handle it Trevor represents a lot of the guys I work with and I wouldn't send guys to Trevor if I didn't think that Trevor was doing a Compassionate job with them the way that Trevor relates to people I think is so important so I wanted to have Trevor to speak to Particularly white lawyers in the room about what you can do as a white lawyer to treat your clients in the way that Trevor has Managed to do so that's why I wanted Trevor on this panel So I won't talk anymore, but babu I'm gonna call you to come up for us my experience I had in Burnside. I was Detained in Burnside in 2014 for immigration detain I was going through Refugee claim the way I went through it was I Guess the wrong way or whatever, but I was born in Gambia, West Africa. I left my country when I was four I grew up in the United States in Atlanta, Georgia. I grew up in Atlanta, Georgia Undocumented I went to school and everything When I turned 18 and try to go to college all the Citizenship and all that other stuff came up. So I Took a flight to Canada. I came across the border The wrong way I use my cousin's passport But I I went through I Lived on underground basically for two years. I lived in Cape Breton. I went to school. I tried to do a living there I was cutting grass. I worked as a janitor But two years of that I wanted more for my life because I was on the route to like go into school taking pre-med all that stuff right to be an anesthesiologist and I Went more so I did some research and I found the health facts refugee clinic and They they drove me up here from Cape Breton and I Told them my story With a couple of fabrications in it to begin We did up a refugee claim and it got filed and I Decided to come out and tell the truth after it got filed. It was a little late. Um, so I had to come back and Do the story all over the only fabrication I had in my original story was the fact that I was gay, which I'm not But in my my country we had a President named Yaya German. He was president for like 22 years Dictated guy the reason why I left in the first place but he his biggest issue was like he was Killing gays throwing them in jail for life all this stuff. So I used what was there for me, right? But I went forward with the refugee claim I Was labeled a flight risk because of how I came through Canada So I got detained because of that and and I got shipped to Burnside and That whole process took nine nine months for it to be over My refugee claim got denied because of the length of How long it took me to claim that refugee claim? I didn't claim it in the US. So I Was technically not refugee in their eyes or whatever but Yeah, I got detained in in Burnside when I first got shipped to Burnside. They I Guess if you're an immigrant they they put you in protective custody so they try to put me in the same range with the sex offenders and And They put me in there for the first two weeks to three two three three weeks till I asked to get moved out. Um, I got I got asked to get moved out because of not because I was around a bunch of sex offenders but just because of the environment of the range and how things were But I got I got moved and and they moved me to It's not a holding cell, but it's like a lot of a lockdown range So they they moved me to a lockdown range for like two weeks or whatever And I had to go do like a process to see which range they should put put me in so for that two weeks I was on 23 hour lockdown come out for an hour if I got that hour Yeah, they I Was going through that whole process at the same time too So every single month I had to go to a hearing that whole night I was in the jail for nine months and I didn't leave the jail But every month I would go to a hearing in like a visitation room and I'll sit down with my immigrant immigration lawyer and we'll do on the phone conference with the the I don't know what to call them see the CVSA people in in Ottawa. So we'll do a on-phone conference and and see whether or not I should be released while I go through my process and Each time it got denied. I went to the refugee claim it got denied. I Did a pre-removerist assessment That guy denied and then I was on deportation order and that's when I got released when I was on deportation order When I got out, I had to like check in three times a week and stuff like that But that was four years ago and now where I'm not on deportation order and I Still got a call in three times a week, but I don't have to wear fear again deported any day now While I was in Burnside though The It was for me. I'm it for me. It wasn't like where I couldn't adapt I had to adapt like so when I adapted it was easier for me, but like Just going through like seeing different stuff when I was in there for immigration like seeing everyone's stressed about going to court or whatever and Getting put in the shackles and because every time they came back from court. That's what they complained about Like you got to go to Emitting and you got to sit there for at least an hour and a half maybe two hours before you even get in the truck and then From from the truck you got to sit there for another 30 minutes before you even go off to court And then coming back you got to do that same process So you're sitting in that truck for 30 to 40 minutes and then coming back in the middle and sitting there for an hour Hour and a half and then come back to your range and so sometimes for some people when they came back to the range They didn't even have food. All right, depending on the time you came you missed supper So if you didn't have a good friend or Whatever on the range nobody saving your food like they're splitting your food You know they're eating your food and if you bother the guards about the food You got to keep bothering them to get some food, right? Yeah, I I was in there I was in West three I believe yeah I was in West three doing my immigration sentences after I went through the two weeks in the lockdown range They put me in the open range in the West three and I was in there with I Was I was not Charged of any criminal activity at that point I grew up as an athlete went to school. You know, I mean nothing like that. So I Was put in that environment where there was people with first-degree murder charges Robberies all this other stuff, right? So I got to know different criminal minds and and even innocent people and there was a couple of People that were on immigration detention as well on my range To that couldn't even speak English. So they they had a very hard time trying to get what they needed because they couldn't communicate with The CEOs or the inmates themselves, right? There was this fifth Philippine guy He couldn't speak any English at all whatsoever. So like I tried to help him out But like most of the times even for him to get toilet paper. It was a hard thing for him to do, right? like just to ask for something like that but yeah, like the In there, like I don't know the the CEOs they just like for the immigrants as speaking only for the immigrants, right for the ones that can't speak English or It's just difficult for them, right trying to Adapt to that situation and then trying to get your everyday needs or do your everyday thing or even help, right? Trying to try to communicate with a lawyer. That was the biggest issue in there, right? My the good thing I had was the health tax refugee clinic So if I had any questions, I would call them and but for the other immigrants their problems was communicating with lawyers They didn't have a transfer translator to begin with so you can't speak English. Good luck, right? You don't have a translator and Even trying to get a hold of a lawyer like they give you a list of the numbers there on the phone and it's legal aid It's all for criminal Lawyers, right? And it's very hard to get a hold of any immigration lawyer. So I Just put out the health fact refugee clinic number like and any immigrant that was there and the health fact refugee clinic got busy Because of me while I was in there, right? I gave them all the numbers And they're very helpful that they're multi-cultured like so even if it's hard for you to speak English they got they they will have someone that can come and speak to you speak to you in your language They even tried to come have someone speak Well, after me and that's my home language and I I Partially speak it right I can understand But when I first came from my my my refugee thing I was holding on that I can speak you're right. I'm a very culture person So I gave it a try But yeah, you know It that nine months of Like sitting in Burnside and the only time I got to see air was when we got the privilege to go out to The air and core or the gym or whatever, right and that privilege wasn't always given to us every week You know, it's supposed to go out twice a week, you know, they like to claim short staff Which some sometimes I understand, you know, I When I first went in there I was in there for that 14-day lockdown When they were locked down before 14 days and most of times you didn't even get out that whole day And I was supposed to be a 23-hour lockdown everyone gets an hour for that 14 days I think I got out like once a once a day probably five days out of that 14 days You know the the rest I was locked down there for 24 hours But and that was because I think they were looking for a weapon or something someone broke down the Workout machine on the air and court and they were looking for the peace that was missing So they locked down the whole jail and it took 14 days to find that piece, right? Yeah, like when I first got in there they denied me my religion I was I'm born Muslim practice Islam When you go in the emitting they they're supposed to ask you all these questions and I Don't recall that being happened with me But so since I never went through that and told them that I was a Muslim on file I wasn't a Muslim So it was a big deal for me trying to claim that I was a Muslim and get Halal meal or on a no pork diet That that took like six months, you know I had to go see in the mob instead of the chaplain because the chaplain wouldn't wouldn't pass my Requests for a no pork diet Even with the no pork diet to like I try to follow lawsuit against them, but I lost the paper So I was on a note no pork diet that whole time But to two of the meals that they get that they give you on a no pork diet is pork and Yeah, and I didn't find this out until I had someone on my range come on the range with a halal meal And when they were eating their halal meal I'm looking trying to examine difference and like my meat's pink. There's is all grilled up looking good and Yeah, I found out that I was eating pork for for nine months, you know So I try to file the lawsuit or whatever, but when I got out I lost the paper I was happy that I was out. So it's whatever right that that things behind me But like even simple stuff like that, right? Like every time I had that meal I was wondering why I rushed it to the bathroom Fighting for toilet paper. That's that's always my biggest issue, right? I had to fight for toilet paper now at my house I never run out of toilet paper I got a stack of toilet paper And that was because nine months I had to fight like for toilet paper every time and if you bothered the guards for toilet paper They'll come and treat you like an animal literally they'll come with a bag of toilet paper and just throw it in the air and walk away Right and just want they want you to flock there like a bunch of animals right like a bunch of birds or something Like you can't come hand us toilet paper or put it down on the table and say there's toilet paper here now You got to come in doting the air like everyone friend for their cell when I'm the one to ask for toilet paper So like that's that was a hard thing to do get toilet paper to get any request honestly To get dental there I was trying to get my tooth pulled out That never happened I put in a request three three times that never happened Even to get pro pro programs if you're not there if you're if you're not You have to be Convicted of a crime to be in pro programs there So to get any type of help you have to be convicted of a crime So while you're sitting on remand or on detention for immigration you can't do any programs anything like that to help yourself, right? Yeah, like thank you guys for listening to my story Thank you baboon, of course It's not easy to get up in front of these rooms and have to talk about these extremely personal humiliating moments So I really want to honor you for doing that We ask people to come in you know Oh, you're the lived expert and just for us to understand what that means right to get up in front of the room and talk About toilet paper in front of people. So thank you baboon. Thank you for your analysis I'm gonna ask Trevor to come next before I start to speak. I'll just Preface my comments by saying that my perspective is not as an academic. I don't have any stats To offer you on this topic. I Don't have lived experiences. L noted. I'm white kind words from L Thank you, but I think that she chose the whitest Person that she could find Beyond this panel. I'm like translucent My my perspective is as a criminal defense lawyer I've been so for roughly a decade in this province So I've represented black accused white accused and that is the experience. I am offering and I could probably spend a lot of time As probably other defense lawyers if they're here I know I've seen some talking about what we see as a disparity in outcomes for Black accused versus white accused in terms of trials in terms of sentencing in terms of bail crown positions on Sentencing on bail and overall treatment of black accused in the justice system, but I do want to give just a few examples I won't take up too much time but one case that was last year 2000 2017 case from our Supreme Court called red and it's a reported decision actually has nothing to do with race at all so an Older gentleman a white accused who is charged with possessing 18 firearms in his home in a rural area Handguns shotguns Rifles 7,000 rounds of ammunition Mr. Redden was on a prohibition order. He had a prior related conviction. I Think the prior conviction is actually for shooting someone. I'm not positive on that. That's my understanding. Mr. Redden pled guilty to these offenses and Ultimately received a community-based sentence to conditional sentence order and I'm not suggesting Mr. Redden should not have I'm glad He shouldn't didn't go to jail. I don't think he should have many shouldn't but the the reason I bring up that case is because the what I see is That a similarly situated black accused may have a lot of difficulty receiving that sentence and making that same argument that his lawyer made on his behalf You know if I were You know if I had an accused and I'm saying well, yes, they had 18 firearms 7,000 rounds of ammunition they have a prior related record they are Involved in their community also back up. Mr. Redden some of the evidence that came out of his sentencing was that he was a historian he played the bagpipes he Made wine and beer in his spare time. So great. I mean that those are great hobbies for Mr. Redden But just imagine if I'm if I'm arguing well, listen, yeah, I have a client. He has 18 firearms. He's black He doesn't play the bagpipes But is into all sorts of other music and perhaps as a hip-hop artist Am I is my argument going to have the same effect as the argument did for Mr. Redden? I Don't think so. I really don't You know when there's there's other examples to bail examples I Had a case not that long ago my client Charged with a serious crime of shooting but had no record and the case and I know I'm his defense counsel But it is was a weak weak case objectively weak and the crown was opposed to his release not not even on any type of House arrest nothing they were opposed. They wanted him detained and I don't know for sure I guess that that Crown Attorney would have had a different position were that a white accused But I have seen enough of this over the years to justify my belief that the position may be different that they may take a different position so in this Provence in this HRM if you're a black accused you have a particular lax name from a predominantly black community There is I think an assumption and a bias that you are someone who is somehow Entrenched in the criminal subculture Without evidence of that fact and that influences I think How a crown may look at a file when that person before the court that sentencing at trial It's there and I've seen it and I've seen it again and again over the years And again, there are many other examples. I think I could give but I won't spend too much time on that another One example. I do want to talk about it's not exactly an outcome though. That's that's part of this case. It was a murder charge several months ago My client Is a black young man The deceased in the case was a white young man Throughout the course of the trial there was some media reporting about my client was during the testimony of a material witness and Couple of journalists in the courtroom were live tweeting and writing about it and were consistently describing my client as staring at the At the witness when he was on stand Which I mean he was looking at the witness. It's it's his murder trial. I don't know. He was doing other things too, but So that happened and like L wrote about that as well Same trial The dirt this was during jury deliberations The family of the deceased were present throughout most of the trial but not present during there were several days of deliberations They were not there for most of that and the crown attorney outside of court to a journalist Presumably I wasn't present but presumably this was off the record. It wasn't certainly reported but in earshot of my client's family and my clients Supporters said that the family of the deceased were not present because they had been intimidated by My client's family and my client's supporters. I know that's not true. That was not true completely not true same trial This was again during deliberations the jury had a question the jury came in and one of the sheriffs walked over to my client's family and my client's supporters and admonished them for looking at the jury Because I guess the feeling at least for that particular sheriff was that they were somehow intimidated the jury Just looking over in their direction when they came in so That's all the same trials. There was a theme in that trial of just Black people just doing nothing but being there. They were just Existing being present there and there were these these accusations that was apparently a problem just being present throughout that trial So part of that I think reason L asked me to be here, too is to talk about what can lawyers do To deal with issues of race and racism when representing black accused and I don't want to pretend that I have all the answers to that question I certainly don't but I can talk about perhaps what What not to do which may seem? Obvious, but one example is from a case a few years ago a court of appeal decision called Frazier Where the evidence on the fresh evidence on appeal was that the defense lawyer at trial was represented black accused he was charged with a sexual assault to the alleged victim of the sexual assault was a white person and the The client had expressed some concern to the lawyer about Racism and despite that the lawyer had not even advised The client of their right to challenge for cause the ability to challenge for cause was a jury trial Parks challenge to challenge the cause on the issue of race had not even told the Client about that So that's an obvious example of what not to do court of appeal. I don't think it was too happy with that failing Another example of what not to do. I had a client tell me once that he with a previous lawyer had had some questions about Race had some questions about racism challenge for cause other other issues related to race that he brought up to his client had some concerns and instead of Responding to those concerns the lawyer said maybe you need a black lawyer which Obviously don't do that. I know this seems Like it's not particularly profound for me to say You know listen to your client give a shit about their case. Sorry for the letter to swear here But I I think that maybe sometimes That there's a lack of humility With lawyers occasionally that's they I'm trying to be you know But just the approach that I'm the expert. I know what to do I got this don't worry and that's not a particularly helpful approach with any client But if you are a white lawyer and your client is a black person I think it's particularly important not to be like that Because you can't know what their life is like you can't you won't so all you can do is listen to them Just try to incorporate their perspective into your own try If the circumstances justify to tell their story as best you can and for example at sentencing It's again. I know I'm just saying listen and try to understand and and try to Hear them and again that doesn't sound particularly profound But I think there is a lack of that sometimes in representation of black accused I also think and I know Robert will talk about Cultural race and cultural assessments at sentencing that's becoming more common I know was kosher what I think which I think is a good thing I know there's an Ontario case recently where that was also done that Robert was involved in And I'd be interested in talking about this topic I don't we don't have a lot of time to dig into this for the purpose of this talk, but just the the potential for At least being open to that as Council And even in cases where it's not practical to get An actual assessment done because that takes a lot of time it takes money It's not every case that you can can do that But that doesn't stop the lawyer from again Talking to their client trying to gather information listening to the information they have Talking to their family talking to members of the community and trying to Tell the court about their identity and about their background You can of course still do that in the absence of a race and culture assessment I think there may be room for expert evidence Regarding race and culture at trial as well. And again, I would be interested in talking to people about this Afterwards if people want to but Just some thoughts I had on that For instance in a self-defense type of case if if your client is arguing self-defense and An argument the crown may have you know Well, if you were truly threatened if you had been assaulted in the past If you were afraid of this person in the weeks leading up to the event Why didn't you call police? Or the answer to that question could have a cultural component then I think there's room there for expert evidence on that point You know, why did you go to the scene at all? Why did you even attend the scene? You knew this person that you're claiming you were afraid of was there I think there's room in that type of factual scenario after the fact conduct you know if you Didn't do anything unlawful if you did nothing wrong you're claiming why didn't didn't you stick around the scene Why did you flee the scene? Why did it? Why were you avoiding police? I think I'm not aware that there's been expert evidence called in these types of situations you know, maybe there's challenges in terms of rules of evidence and again, I'd be interested in talking to defense slurs if they want to about that but Calling up calling a witness the non accused witness To provide exculpatory evidence and that witness has not Cooperated with police, you know, perhaps has refused to cooperate with police during their investigation But comes forward at trial and provides helpful evidence for you You know, maybe their credibility is being attacked on that basis Well, if you had this helpful evidence, why do you come forward? Well, there could be a cultural component to why they chose not to do that and surely they can answer that but it may there may be room there for expert evidence you know, hopefully not I mean no one has an obligation to to You know speak to police in those circumstances, but I've had judges say All citizens have quote an inherent obligation to assist police during their investigations I've had judges say that You know, there may be anyway, I think I'm finished Thank you very much for having me Thank you, Trevor. And I will say that Trevor does more than listen to his clients Maybe he doesn't maybe this is just a component of how he listens But I know from people that have had him Representing them they feel that they're part of it like he will give them the law if they want to read it over So that they feel that they're active in their own defense And I think that's been really important in empowering people in a very powerless process Just feeling that they can ask those questions about what's going on. So I will big you up for that, Trevor Finally, I'd like to invite Robert to the microphone It's a totem now First, I'd like to thank Al for inviting me to be here and the this brother lives by a maxim And that is when the sisters call the brother responds And if you understand there's some cultural Components to that But I think it's a good maxim for all male identified persons to live by Just you will talk about its benefits to later So I think we're just going to there we go. I think that we're going to put Why is that not happening? There we go. That's going Excellent. So I didn't prepare a PowerPoint slide For you, but I decided I would put a couple of Websites up here just to aid me in the conversation a little bit So Elle asked me to come and talk a little bit on this panel that is about anti-black racism in the criminal justice system and in prisons And I guess my my my question is is that still a question? Is there anybody in the room who is not convinced that anti-black racism exists in the criminal justice system? I'm just wondering about my audience. Is that anybody? So So I guess really what we're talking about is how do we talk about anti-black racism in the criminal justice system? And how do we then argue about it in a way that Is substantial and leads to the kinds of things that are necessary to deconstruct anti-black racism in the criminal justice system Well, this first this is just a slide about me That's my website Robert s right dot ca i'm I'm imminently google-able and some of the things that I write about and talk about are On my website almost every PowerPoint I've ever produced is there. So if you Wanted to take a look at some things there are there's and there's a rather fetching picture of myself If you wanted to look at that so we're in Nova Scotia So when we start to talk about systemic racism in the in the criminal justice system, there are some places that we can go And I always like to start the conversation. Although it really doesn't begin there at the donald marshal jr process Royal commission on the wrongful conviction of donald marshal jr And I love this because in the very opening paragraph of this of this Commission that the commission says the criminal justice system failed donald marshal jr at virtually every turn From his arrest and wrongful conviction for murder in 1971 up to and even beyond his acquittal by the court of appeal in 1983 So even beyond his acquittal The system was dealing with him With systemic racism as a factor in his dealings there the Tragedy of the failures compounded by evidence that this miscarriage of justice could and should have been prevented Or at least corrected quickly if those involved in the system had carried out their duties in a professional and or a competent manner That they did not is due in part at least to the fact that donald marshal jr is a native So in Nova Scotia royal commission has on paper acknowledged that systemic racism was a substantial part of the the result Of donald marshal jr's outcomes not just his arrest and wrongful conviction But everything that followed after that right up and including after his acquittal and one of the things that people forget about the donald marshal jr case is that though donald marshal jr was a Amigma individual The person who was murdered in that case was a young black man And so not only did donald marshal jr not receive justice But the victim of the crime a black man did not receive justice And so we have to ask ourselves the question had the victim of the crime in that case not been black And had there not been an aboriginal person around to blame on that crime Would the matter have gone radically differently? And I think that the conclusion has been history has suggested. Yes. It would have been a different conclusion So when I think about anti-black racism, I I go to the next thing I think about just naturally and then again There wasn't a lot of of uh scholarship put together This is a conversation that I've been invited to and I'm I'm here to kind of share in the conversation I go to the rds case here in Nova Scotia and this is just a this is not the actual case But rather a a reporting on it that john tattry did in in 2017 how a national crisis showed the value of a black judge And there's a little description of that case here somewhere A dramatic example of that happened in 1990 in the 1990s a white helifax police officer arrested a 15-year-old black boy known As rds in legal documents. We still refer to him as rds though. He self identifies The police officer said the teenager had interfered while he was arresting a different black boy The police officer said rds hit him with his bike in an effort to free the the other boy rds said He did not touch him but was arrested for speaking up during the arrest What was the national crisis the national crisis was that the black judge believed that the black boy's story was credible enough to raise reasonable doubt For the case to be dismissed Well, you would have thought she shot someone in the courtroom The national chiefs of police called for her removal from the bench And the case was appealed and was argued right to the supreme court in which Where her judgment was held and some very important judice jurist prudence came out of rds So Does anti-black racism exist in the criminal justice system? Well, perhaps it does certainly When a black judge knowledges the possibility That certain interactions between police officers and young black people are characterized You know that you know the story sounds credible. I understand these sorts of things happen. She was very gentle in her comments She was accused of racial bias I think the I think at the time I think it was the first black the first judge in canada who was So accused not to suggest that white judges before had not been Engaged in racial bias, but her case really rang a bell nationally So does anti-black racism exist? Well, I don't think I need to convince you there So then I go to the OCI report the office of the correctional investigator 2013 report One of the things the OCI did was to have a special section in that report on diversity and Corrections and did a case study on the experience of the black inmate and And so that Was in 2013 I was a member of an organization that we had found it is As a result of some other things that we don't have time to talk about The african-canadian prisoner advocacy coalition that was a kind of an ad hoc group that's hung together for a little bit In response to some questions. Anyway, we were asked to do the the literature review to support the OCI study in 2013 and I guess what I would say is that of course the OCI study Showed a number of things I will just say this That we understand anti-black racism. Zism does exist in the criminal justice system What does it result in it? It results in and is evidence by increased policing in black communities increased encounters between black people and police here in Nova Scotia. We're looking at the street checks data And currently there is a study that is being led by our human rights commission to see Whether or not the street check encounters that black people have with police Just to see unpack The systemic racism that is evident there. This of course results in increased arrest disproportionate sentencing increased time in classification units even when Incarcerated resulting in reduced time for programming and Then of course once you're in general population Decreased programming opportunities decreased effect When programs are taken increased disciplinary events increased time before released So black people who are arrested and adjudicated and spend time jails tend to spend more time In jail before statutory release or before early release than their white counterparts So all of these things are evidence of anti-black racism. Oh and by the way Black inmates who are released have reduced recidivism rates to their white counterparts. So That evidence suggests that the way they were treated throughout the criminal justice system is really not Uh in keeping with the nature of their risks So all of that is stuff that i've been theorizing about for about 25 years or so and uh And uh, so theorizing about these things uh results in a lot of Good but eventually someone has to do something and so um probably about A decade ago or so I started uh writing Reports for lawyers who would come to me and say I got this black inmate What do you think is there's something you can comment on I would write these reports? And I think the reports were just really trying to articulate Some of the Ways in which anti-black racism shows up in the lives of these Often young men who were before the criminal justice system And I think the initial reports that I read wrote Didn't see the light of day in court, but might have been used by lawyers to argue with With crown prosecutors and the like But then came the rvx case In which a young black man shot another young well, they were boys actually a young another young black boy in the middle of the day long in the short the prosecutor was wanting to um sentence the young boy as a an adult And uh was looking for quite a severe sentence And the lawyer came to me and I wrote a report and the long and the short of it is that Judge Ann Derrick was able to find In that report Something that allowed her to see The person who was being adjudicated from a slightly different perspective and was able to Sentence the young man to a youth sentence So that was the the case and it Because it was a youth case though it did get a little bit of press Perhaps it didn't get as much as it should But since that time here in Nova Scotia these reports have become a an accepted part of the tools that are available To the court not to defense attorneys, but to the courts To help the court arrive at just sentences for black And so that's something that we have been doing here Um in Nova Scotia since that time which is I guess 2014 And um, I think as it was noted I was involved in one case in Ontario They have had a second case in Ontario Both cases were before the same judge and both judgments have uh Resulted much like rvx in very eloquent and insightful Written decisions. So if you haven't read those decisions, I'd encourage you to do so Uh, the assessments are really that just a couple of things I'll say before I sit down and then perhaps we'll have an opportunity to have conversations Oh, let me just ask how many people here are our lawyers just by show of hand just so I get a sense of the Okay, how many people here are are? Credential mental health professionals. Okay, so we have some mental health professionals So um, so some of us who are expert witnesses go to court and we write these assessments And one of the challenging things with being an assessor is that your job is not to be an advocate Your job is simply to assess objectively and so as Wonderful as my report might be It is only as useful the lawyer Can make it been assessing things I've been a forensic assessors for I don't know 20 years And I have done a lot of work risk of violence assessments parental capacity assessments sex offender assessments now These cultural assessments and I have had Fantastic lawyers adduce the evidence out of my reports and I have had not so fantastic lawyers Attempt to ask me simply so you did that report. Uh, what did you find? I've stayed on the stand kind of dumbfounded. Well, um, my point is that This work can't just be done on the on the backs of the expert witnesses the the witnesses still need to be Examined by competent lawyers. The other thing I would say is that as was suggested that the the assessments Perhaps are not always necessary. Certainly now we're getting enough decisions There's a developing enough jurisprudence to acknowledge and make good arguments for the presence of anti-black racism in the lives of individuals and to steer Jurists to make decisions that are designed to arrive at good decisions one last slide I'll show you and then I'm going to slide to sit down There have been a very a couple of very interesting cases in the united states where superior courts have come to this conclusion There have been cases in which on a scene police arrive and black people flee and police give chase And those persons have been found and sometimes adjudicated Or been chased down and and arrested Sometimes even found to have drugs on them sometimes found to have weapons on them And in at least two very interesting cases that I've been tracking the judges found that A black person running from a police officer In certain contexts can no longer be considered a suspicious act A black man who runs from police shouldn't necessarily be considered suspicious And merely might be trying to avoid the recurring indignity of being racially profiled That's an interesting thought Thank you Robert your brilliance is always just the brilliance of robert for our community is so important And his breadth of analysis. So thank you. We have some time for questions. Let's you know, keep it short go ahead I remember one of the recommendations I take the point I'm just wondering in the 30 years since that inquiry has there been a significant Increase in the number of black lawyers and indigenous lawyers, and I know your relationship indigenous lawyers to have but Has there been a lot of black lawyers taking that place um, I don't know the stats back in 1988 But I I assume there has been maybe some but there certainly is not many in Nova Scotia There are there the overwhelming majority of lawyers criminal lawyers Seem to be white and frankly white men But I mean there certainly are there are some so I don't know if I We have increased many in private practice one practicing black Uh lawyer woman. That's it Like there's some people at legal aid but very few Ray again We'll see my name And so so yeah, so it's a huge issue And I remember there's like Uh Yeah, if I could just say yes, there has been an increase in the numbers of black and indigenous lawyers In part largely to the indigenous black and migma program that exists here at the shilloch school of law And we have been increasing the number of Trained lawyers who are black and indigenous But if anti black racism exists in society and is affecting people who come before the criminal justice system It's also affecting people who come to law school And so is the sister suggested that there are some barriers to Those individuals coming to to law school and and so that difficulty in finding articles Even when you do fire find articles difficulty in the higher backs Those kinds of things black lawyers indigenous lawyers Starting their careers as sole practitioners when really, you know That's not the safest place to start your legal career and then After a legacy of oh, I don't know more than 20 years of this program And they're beginning to be a critical mass of Qualified black and indigenous lawyers who have been before the bar for Significant periods of time our provincial government changed the policy in terms of how long a Lawyer had to be before the bar be to be eligible for a provincial judicial appointment So that policy shift right at the time where there was a critical mass of indigenous black and uh and Aboriginal lawyers to me Was a clear evidence of anti black and anti indigenous racism by the system that at one time argued There's no qualified Blacks or natives to a point to the bench and then when there was we changed the bar So, uh, there are some challenges, but yes, we do have more black and indigenous lawyers and they're doing a bang up job Go ahead Debbie. I know you wanted I actually believe it's a lot more than that as white lawyers white people in this world We have to address our whiteness and our privilege and unpack that and how it impacts our people of color And to do the work that we do as criminal offense lawyers. We must do that work Otherwise, we will never be able to represent Anybody here who is a person of color and that's fundamental because we're actually doing a detriment in Thank you Go ahead We have to have one more question Uh I'll also add that we don't have council of choice through legal aid anyway So you can't actually request the black lawyer because when allowed to so and My understanding is that they've been cracking down on that more lately probably because of austerity issues So even if you want a black or indigenous lawyer and you're with legal aid, you can't just request it Thank you everybody. Thank you so much to the panelists