 There is a Jesus Revolution going on, and I want you to be part of it. Thank you for joining me on Hope Today. I'm Tom, I'm here with Angela. We're gonna have, we've got a really special little clip for you coming up, something related to not exactly the movie Jesus Revolution, but the time. You're gonna love that. But Angela, we're gonna have a great discussion too. Tell us about the guests coming up. Oh, I am so excited to talk about this guest and talk with him. Have you heard about this current trend of deconstructing faith? To many, it seems like a scary practice which can lead to the destruction of many believers, but today's guest, Trevor Whitman, is going to shine some light on this prevalent practice, helping us to understand what it means and how when it's done right, it just might help the church to be all she is called to be. I am excited to get into this conversation because I think it's necessary right now. Absolutely. I mean, we need to have these conversations because people, we've said for a long time, people were, why are young people leaving the church? Well, we're gonna find out a little bit more about that. Some of the issues in the church and some good things that we can do. It's a positive thing, but you know, we're seeing a lot of people turn to God right now. We're seeing it with the Asbury revival and the things that are going on around that. And of course, I mentioned the Jesus Revolution movie, which if you haven't seen, Angela, you haven't seen it yet, you gotta get out there, come on. I've seen it, it's fantastic. Well, we had Chuck Gerrard, who's mentioned in the movie, he brought with him a Jesus Movement video from back in those days. This was a few years ago, I think it was 2014 when he was here and he shared in one of our living room concerts. Watch this. All right, well, we're having a lot of fun here, reminiscing about the good old days, but this new better days ahead of us, right? We're not done yet. And you know, back in those days though, when with the number of hippies that were getting saved, the numbers were actually astronomical. The percentages of any given night, there could be 200 people in the audience and you'd have an altar call and literally 140 would come to the front. You had to restate the altar call, make sure they got what you're asking them, you know, it's not for backsliding, it's not for rededication, it's not because you missed your devotions, it's for people who want to receive Jesus for the first time and no one would budge and it was just this wonderful time of harvest. So a big dilemma, where do you baptize this many people? And so Calvary Chapel has historically never had an actual baptismal within the church, but we had the ocean a couple of miles away. So Pastor Chuck thought, well let's just take him down and dunk him in the ocean. So we did, we had these ocean water baptisms and you know, many, many people would come. Sometimes I don't know the actual numbers but probably at least 1,000 would be baptized in any given day because of the amount of converts there were and we found some footage a few years back of one of these ocean water baptisms and we're going to show it right now. It's a very cool movie footage and we put one of our songs behind it and so we're going to show you this awesome historical document, circa 1973, Hippie Ocean Water Baptism at Corona Del Mar, California. Enjoy. My identification totally and completely with his death, with his burial, with his resurrection. The water is actually a symbol of the grave. The old lapestry in the church, but they had the ocean and the ocean was what they needed. All those people, Angela, coming to God, coming out of the Hippie movement, coming out of the partying, coming out of having no hope, seeing no life in that, coming to the author of life. Yes. It's powerful Tom and I really do feel like we're beginning to see that here now. You went to the Asbury, didn't you? I did. I went to Asbury. It was beautiful. A lot of what I think everyone says who experienced it, it's kind, it's God's gentleness, his goodness, his love. And one of my dear friends, Mary Mercer said of it, she went also and she said, you know, Ange, I love how God came to an anxiety riddled generation with his gentleness and his kindness. And that is truly what it was, Tom. When I was in that room, it was just his love and his peace covering us. It's powerful. God is sufficient for every situation, right? So, and every generation, every generation is a little bit different, but the human condition is the same. We're lost in sin. We need Christ. We need to know Him as Savior and Lord. He uses different ways for us to understand that. And you know, I just believe that God is starting something new. I hope so. I hope we see another Jesus movement, another, you know, renewal worldwide. We're already seeing the movement there, but God has got something, He's got something for you today. I hope you know Him as Savior and Lord, and I hope you're following Him close because He's going to speak those things to your heart so much. And I'm excited for what God is doing, and I'm excited for where we're headed even in this program today with this conversation. I agree. I think it's really important that in this hour, like you mentioned, Tom, that we recognize what God is doing. And when you see movements like Asbury and that which is happening around us, it's powerful. And so is the topic that we're gonna get into today. In a world that's increasingly losing trust for those in authority and starting to question really the validity of everything, a new segment of believers is emerging as those in the process of deconstruction. Today's guest, Trevor Whitman, takes a deeper look into this dilemma and offers us hope in his new book, Brick by Brick, Reconstructing the Deconstructed. We are so glad to have you, Trevor. Welcome to Hope Today. Yeah, thanks for having me. I really am looking forward to this conversation. And honestly, you guys talking about Asbury and that whole movement behind it. Man, that whole thing has gotten me so excited. Obviously, I'm on the West Coast here in Washington, so I wasn't able to make it out there. But just watching from afar, I think this conversation about deconstruction is honestly perfect to lead into that because so many young people, especially, it's not all young people, but a lot of the young people that we're talking about deconstruction, it's become this boogeyman word where it seems like all bad things of someone's questioning their faith or if they're doubting or they're having these struggles, just automatically gets tossed out there as deconstruction. And there are versions of deconstruction where people lose their faith. There's no doubt about that. But there's also a version of deconstruction where these young people are questioning the institution of the church. And it's because they have seen case after case after case of abuse that has been coming out of things that are happening in the church or in these Christian organizations. And I think the thing I love about Asbury, and I'm sorry I'm talking so much right off the gate, but I just, I get so pumped because there were so many cases of really famous celebrity passers wanting to come to Asbury. And they didn't allow them to be out there. It was led by students. It was this genuine move of God that it wasn't about any one person, it was about Jesus. And I think people are just hungry for those types of experiences. I love that you say that Trevor because I do think that a lot of times things happen around us and we are, oh don't do that or be cautious of that. But you bring up a topic that a lot of people are going through, the deconstruction. And I think it's important that you speak to us a little bit about how people can genuinely and healthily go through this deconstruction process and not emerge as one who has lost all faith. Yeah, yeah, and thank you. Yeah, that's a great question, Angela. So for me, when I'm looking at it and I talk about this in the introduction of my book, we've all developed the worldviews that we have through the people in our lives. So how we were raised, who raised us? What kind of school did we go to? What kind of economic situation did we grow up in? Were we raised in the church? Were we not? I mean, there's so many influences of how we are raised. And a lot of those bricks are put into our house, are built on our foundation for us. And so when we become adults, it's important for us to make our faith our own. And that process sometimes can be really difficult and sometimes painful. But the thing that I love telling young people that are going through this is, it's God's not afraid of you asking questions, right? There's no question that he's gonna be surprised by. He's not scared of your doubt. He doesn't love you less because you question what's going on. The thing that I always like to drive back towards is you can question, hey, what do I believe in? Why do I believe it? And where does that come in scripture? And I think the more we do that, the better off that we are, because then our faith is more established in truth in what the Bible says. But like you're saying, when that starts to turn and people are disillusioned by the institution of the church, it's important to evaluate why we believe what we believe and maybe do it different. And the thing that I really talk about is, there might be some chapters you read and go, hey, I feel like our church does this really well. Let's just keep doing that. It's affirming me that what we're doing is great. I feel like that's perfect. It lines up with scripture, we're doing this great. But I by no means have all the answers. I by no means have the one solution of this is how you do church according to Trevor. It's nothing like that. It really is just a conversation starter and a number of really tough topics. I talk about politics. I talk about race. I talk about women in the church. I talk about a lot of topics that the church has really wrestled with that either people have handled really poorly in the past or they just refuse to address it at all. And I think there's a lot of these areas that the church can grow where people can find good, healthy ways forward that maybe their church hasn't been doing to that point. You know, we talk about Asbury, the revival and we also talk about deconstruction. They're coexisting right now, right? Like this is where we are. What do you see being the role of our leadership within churches and us as lay people? What is our role in walking through both deconstruction and revival and how do they play well together? Man, yeah, that's honestly what I've been contemplating a ton the last couple of weeks as this has been going on. And that's a phenomenal question. I think they do work hand in hand. I honestly think that if you interviewed every single person that went to Asbury, I bet you that in interviewing them, whether they called it that or not, that there was probably a large percentage of those people that have been deconstructing or have deconstructed that were just hungering and thirsting for an authentic move of God. I think, especially young people, but the church today I think is just disillusioned with the fog machines and the big lights and the big show. I think that people are finally realizing, man, that none of that stuff serves us. And I love that it was led by young people especially and almost like the nameless. Like we don't know who is leading it and who's the main charge. And there's a handful of folks that we know have led worship or have given testimony or whatever. But the majority of it is these people are going to Asbury because the institution of the church within this country, especially, right? It's the only thing we can talk about. I wanna be really careful about that too. I'm not talking about the global capital C church. I can't say that a church in Indonesia is having the same problems that we are, right? But the issues that we have here, the institutions that we have here have revolved around power and around influence and around politics in such a way that people are like, man, if that's all the church is, I don't need that in my life. But then they have this experience where they get called to go to this thing either as a participant or someone that's been leading it. And they have this genuine move of God in their life and it changes them forever. I was literally tearing up watching that video clip that that move of God in the ocean, people getting baptized, like those are moments that people, those are cornerstone moments that people never turn away from, right? Those are the types of moments that change you forever. And hopefully, if any believers are watching this or the believers that are watching this, I should say, we should all have that moment that we can recollect about how the Lord captured our heart. And I guarantee you, it wasn't because of the, the celebrity pastor that came in or the $100,000 sound system or the whatever consumer type thing that we think is gonna draw our attention. We were drawn by the Lord and the Lord called our name and he just asked us to respond to it. And so what I think is really beautiful is that this Asbury movement, I think revival, someone in my small group said it the other night, and it really impacted me, you can't have revival without it being dead first, right? That's a statement. And when you think about it, these people that are going to Asbury that are hungering and thirsting for a move of God in their own life are feeling like they need something revived within them. And the very easily could be because of the disillusionment or the hurt that they've experienced in church. And they've paralleled that with saying, I got hurt by the church, therefore I got hurt by God and you go, none how, like you were hurt by broken and sinful people that may be in leadership or may not be or whatever from your experience, but God wants to redeem that. And not only does he want to redeem that in your own life, I believe he wants to redeem the institution as well. Trevor, that is so good. And when I see that clip, it was 1973. So I was in just about to start my senior year in high school. So when I went to college and with my friends, we were trying to throw off all the old stuff about the church, throw off the hymns. We want to sing these choruses. We want to get together. We want to have a guitar. We want to pray together. We want to have no formality. We're kind of trying to throw off the old. What is the, what is happening now that the people that are going through this period of deconstruction, you mentioned several things in the book. Maybe you could pick one and say, this is what really young people are seeing now that needs to be thrown off. Man, that's a really loaded question that I only have three minutes to answer. I would say that, I would say that, you know, reading the book and just contemplating that honestly is a good starting place. It's really hard to pinpoint any one of them, right? I could argue that all, every chapter could be that one that we're talking about. And I think that's honestly the problem. I think that if there was only one big singular issue to address, it might, it would be easier, right? I think that the complex issue is that there are some churches that don't really struggle with consumerism, right? I mean, I think that it's really hard to avoid that. But you know, there's a lot of churches that the people that go there are participating. They're bought in, they're in the body, they're serving, they're doing what they need to do, but there's a lot of churches out there where they just depend on the same three or four or five people to use their spiritual gifts and they're just coming as a participant. And I think what we're seeing in Asbury is people are hungry and thirsting to be a part of the body, right? To actually participate in what's going on. And then when you're looking at just leadership structure in general, right? I talk about a number of different solutions that could come and Angela and I were talking about this before we got on the program is there's other ways to do it, right? On the leadership teams that I was on within ministry, you know, ideas would come up of, hey, why don't we do this differently? Why don't we do this? And why don't we do it that way? Oh, it's because we've always done it this one way. And we just got to keep doing it just that one way. And I don't think that's true. I think God very specifically does not in the New Testament say this is exactly how you structured leadership and this is exactly how you structure a board. And this is how you do this. I think it's intentional because the body of Christ is gonna look different in different contexts. But I talk about if you decentralize power within the church, it makes it really, you know, it makes it a lot harder for someone to raise to the level of, you know, being untouched because, you know, I call it the concept of being too big to fail, right? That's an economic concept. But sometimes pastors will get too big where the entire ministry evolves around one person. And if that one person fails, then they believe the whole ministry fails. And if that's true, then the ministry's built on someone other than Jesus, which means it's gonna fail anyway. And we're looking at it through the lens of how can we restructure how we do church? And I think it's really healthy to have, you know, a shared governance model where there's a number of elders that have the same level of influence and power where they can keep each other accountable and can help guide each other in what the scriptures are saying. So obviously I know it's a really, that's a really big question, Tom. And I wish I had more time to answer, but, you know, I really do think that what people are looking for is genuine moves of God in their lives, in their church. And I think that if we can just have honest and transparent and vulnerable conversations with one another regarding the topics that I write about in brick by brick, that they're gonna be able to evaluate what they're doing and seeing if there's any healthy ways for them to make adjustments for their church to be coming more and more like what God has intended it to become. Trevor, that's so good. And I love how, you know, the conversation is critical, right, with any of these things. It's important to have conversation just to get our will spinning and why it's significant that we're having this conversation today. As lay people within the church, what is one other thing that we can begin to do to help shape that culture away from consumerism and into more of an axe church that we see the disciples functioning in? Yeah, I think it's getting off the couch. I think it is you, I think it's you and I and every single person not being okay with treating the church like a movie theater, right? We are not going on a Sunday morning to be entertained. And one of the things I talk about in that consumerism chapter is I think it starts with the approach that we have during the week. I think if we start spending time with the Lord during the week and start praying and saying, Lord, give me words to bring on Sunday morning. Give me a new song to sing. Give me an encouragement to bring. Give me a word of knowledge that I can bring to someone. And in that prayer time, in our time that we're spending with the Lord during the week, preparing our hearts to be active participants on Sunday, I think that's a really good starting place. And I think God will do a ton. You don't need a stage or a specific position to work with the Lord, right? Every single person has spiritual gifts to offer to the body that are gonna be a blessing to people. It is so true. If we can all just come and bring what has been given to us. Trevor, thank you so much for sharing with us today. Thank you for helping to reconstruct that, which is, and we pray blessings upon you and your ministry. Thank you. Wow. I mean, this is what we're talking about, Angela, is something real, something that the Holy Spirit, I love, I think it was Amy Simpson who said that God is not the great I was. He's the great I am, okay? So there's something real, something true right now for this time. And we need to remember that. We have a scripture for you. First Kings 18, verses 36 and 37, says at the time of the sacrifice, the prophet Elijah stepped forward and prayed, Lord the God of Abraham, Isaac and Israel, let it be known today that you are God in Israel. And that I am your servant and have done all these things at your command. Answer me, Lord, answer me. So these people will know that you, Lord our God and that you are turning their hearts back again. What a powerful scripture for what God is doing right now. How does that scripture hit you? I'm telling you, well, that he's doing it again and it truly is his move and his touch. And I love hearing that from the Old Testament to the New Testament to today, God is awakening hearts again, Tom. I love, what I always love about that scene is that that's where he prays for fire to come down. And he didn't do anything to encourage, he actually poured water. He had water, lots of water poured over top of the sacrifice. So there was no doubt. We don't have to do anything except open the door of our life to God. Have you done that today? We can talk about all kinds of things about how the church should do things in a better way. And we need that conversation, how we need to be close to God. We need that conversation. But none of it matters unless you have made that initial opening of that door to your life. And it's very simple to do. You just say, Lord, come into my life and be my Lord and Savior, forgive me of my sins. That's the main issue here is that we need, we are people who need to be forgiven. Forgive me of my sins, come into my life and be my Savior and Lord. If you've never done that, do that today and begin to follow after Lord. Call the prayer partner, the number is right there. You can call the prayer partner and say, I want to begin following the Lord. I want to know what's really true. Angel, they can do that today. Absolutely. And maybe you're watching today and you're like, I know Jesus. As Trevor said, bring your gifts. Jesus talks after meeting the woman at the well and he says, look to the hills to his disciples. Look, the fields are white with harvest. God has so much he wants to do through you and around you. And you may be the very conduit he uses to bring hope, encouragement and salvation to those around you. His gospel is good news. So share it today with those you work with who are in your family and those that you may not even have met yet at the grocery store. We pray that today is filled with hope for you and hope for everyone around you as you go into this earth and into this world sharing his good news that he is loved. On tomorrow's hope today, explore the last days of Anne Frank and discover how her faith made an impact. Author and historian, Dr. Johnny Teague takes us through the final months of Anne Frank's life and how her faith played a crucial role in her story. Don't miss tomorrow's hope today. 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