 Welcome back. It's a watching the breakfast and plus TV Africa. Political activities ahead of the 2023 general elections in Nigeria in full swing and the internal processes within the political parties are taking shape. Award and local government congresses as well as the National Convention were held by the two leading political parties setting the stage for the party primaries and according our coordinates with the shadow of the election released by the independent national electoral commission and this is despite calls for time more time and by the interparty advisory committee amidst the internal campaigns by his parents in the various political parties the role and influence of the party delegate has come to the fore from what has been observed they can make Omar now joining us to look at the politics of party primaries and delegates as political analyst Monday Ubani. Good morning to you. Thank you very much for your time. Yeah, it's my pleasure. Thank you for having me. All right. The Nigerian political delegates is quite powerful. Some have said that we need to have a reform reform of the way we run a politics sort of new day and a change in the political system in the country. Now what are your thoughts on this aspiration vis-à-vis the political culture in our leading political parties today? Well, the the issue actually is that we are now on the toes of getting to the election, the general election of 2023 and the political parties are in a trenches in order to actually elect the primary candidates that will now face the citizens or the electorate in 2023 and we are seeing a lot of happenings in the political scene. We've seen what is going on within the PDP, some major stakeholders who actually contestants are probably withdrawing from the political scene and they ask them from the fact of this issue of delegates, who controls the delegates actually control the entire vote and they eventually will determine who emerges and all the cater because we are going to have the status of assembly, the federal house of revs and Senate and Gobernatorial and of course the presidential so whoever is in charge of this all important delegates actually will determine the emergence of the primary candidates at the primary level and so the problem is that we are yet to get it right because this is a fundamental aspect of our electoral journey, electoral process. If we don't get the kind of people that we require that will face the national election, if the wrong candidates are elected by this delegate, all important delegates, who obviously seems that most of them are compromised because they were still in a big problem as a nation, we are still in a very big, we have not made any advancement in terms of political culture, we have not made any advancement in terms of even our democracy, you know, because if the wrong persons emerge you have no choice than to elect those wrong persons at the national election and if the wrong persons keep on emerging, Nigeria remains retarded because leadership is key, we can't move forward without the kind of leadership that can drive Nigeria in the 21st century so honestly for what I'm seeing I don't think we have made any any improvement at all in our political culture, we have not made any improvement in our political system and our democracy I must tell you is clearly in period. So Dr. Mandu Bani, at what point do we now see that you know the electoral act, a lot of people had said that you know the electoral act having the president ascent to it and not ascent to it, I mean it would change the dynamics of our political you know process and people actually had hoped that in 2023, I don't know if the hope is still there, that it would be quite different because of the electoral acts that's been you know put out, but how do we now explain the electoral act and delegate at this point? Well the point is that the electoral act has become even more controversial and controversial you know you see what happened when the president signed the amendment in 2022, section 84, subsection 12 were still battling within, I think the matter is still in court even before the supreme court. So we are here to get settled with the show of political appointees, whether they can participate in the process, then the national assembly member suddenly realized that they omitted a very important aspect in an electoral journey by excluding what we call statutory delegates, comprising members of the legislative assembly and even the executive, including the president, is excluded from participating in the process. So they made an amendment, an ascent to the president for an ascent optional, the president has not actually ascended and the reasons he has given, they appear genuine anyway, but at the same time he is really causing a lot of confusion. What he's trying to say, with the present situation where you have only three delegates, three delegates acting from each local government, three artwork delegates from each local government, and you have this kind of money that is being spent, the money that is being spent is so much because people are giving so much money to these delegates, you know, in order for them to emerge and they now add statutory delegates to the list, it then means that billions and billions will be spent by prospective candidates for them to actually emerge and that again will really, really, you know, turn the political scene into trading, into buying and selling. And so he has withheld ascent on that because he didn't want more of, you know, economic problem for those who are contesting. That is reason why he has, according to me, has not ascended to that particular discipline. But what we're seeing with the delegates, with even the current delegates, all of them are being given. In fact, I hear that yesterday I was coming back from Abuja, one of those who are in the inner circle or one of the main major contender for the presidency told me that another candidate is packaging $10,000 for each ad hoc delegate, $10,000. And I think his own candidate is trying to arrange maybe $20,000, double the amount of money. Of course, you are aware of the son of Nama Desambu, who has asked for a refund of $2 million that he paid each to delegates, and then they failed to vote for him. It's an accent. So it has become, you know, a big commerce. It's become a big, in fact, what is going on there is not trading. And almost all these delegates that are, I mean, all these candidates that are consulting, in every state they consult with these delegates. They must give them money. They must also package money. If one of the candidates he said not to be giving money, and then they told somebody that the man is not serious, I don't know whether he's really contesting. He's not a presidential candidate. And so what he's saying that nobody has seen his money among the delegates. So it is, we are now in the era of trading, and that again imperils the entire process. The entire process is clearly, clearly in danger. If delegates are demanding outrightly money before they can practically vote, and that issue of competence, issue of competence is out of the question. Issue of those who can rescue Nigeria is out of the question. The one, what matters now is that you have money, you're eventually going to march as a candidate. And when you begin to have these money, but who have no bread, who come to govern the country and govern the state, we're in trouble. We're in trouble already. My take is that the entire system is already imperiled. I'm not seeing any hope, honestly, from the look of things, you know. There is no advancement in our political culture. There's no... All right. I wonder, Bhanu, you seem to be saying that this, some have described it as an inexplicable mission of the statutory or super delegates in the 2022 electoral act as amended. You're saying it's going to make things worse or it is making things worse as far as internal democracy and the parties are concerned. We can recollect the word. So the statement attributed to the special political advisor to the other presidents in the office of the vice president, Senator Bava Femiutiru, who was quoted by a newspaper saying to Niger State delegates that even someone as righteous as the vice president, Amir Shiba Juhumi, is a pastor in one of the big churches in Nigeria, had offered to cater to the hotel accommodation and logistics of the delegates from Niger State. Of course, they took the whole day for the media team of the or Shiba Juhumi campaign to come out and deny it, but the paper had already put out the information. What would you, what are your thoughts on the role of the independent national electoral commission who, you know, oversees the political parties and also observes the primaries, as far as this issue of internal democracy and financing or finances are concerned? The truth of the matter is that the independent national electoral commission doesn't have the capacity to police the entire political process. It doesn't have capacity in any way. And I've said it several times. When a law is made and then you, that law is observed in breach most times in Nigeria, it doesn't have the system in anywhere. The INEC is not independent in the first place. INEC does not have the capacity to do anything, even organizing free of election. You see what will happen, even in 2023. And the problems stems from the fact of the aspiration of the political elites. INEC have always complained about it. I've also taken time in all my interventions, you know, in television and radio to say, look, despite the fact that we have actually have made an electoral act, despite the fact that there are some innovations that we have introduced, which is dear to us having free free and credible election, there is one thing we have not dealt with. And as long as we have not addressed that from the mental issue, we may never, we may never as a nation have free of free election. What am I saying? The desperation of politicians are too much. They are desperation, you know, unimaginable. It's, I mean, you can't, you can't quantify it. And why is that desperation? It's because of what is available for them in the office, the pace of office. It's too much because there are no checks and balances. The moment you become a governor, you will be a billionaire. Even if it's only one week, you are going to be there, you will be a multi-billionaire. The same thing with the president, the same thing with all the, you know, executive, because of lack of checks and balances. And because we don't run a transparent system. And so what happened is that those who want to occupy political position know this fact that the moment you win a election, you already are made for the rest of your life, generations born and unborn will become billionaires. So what they do is that they can do anything to get into that office. And so including breaching the law, increasing, including breaching the system, including manipulating the system, even as much as we have had this electronic, we're going to have what you call electronic transmission of result, you know. I can assure you that that electronic transmission of result will be interrupted. They're going to mess it up. We see what will happen during the election of 2023. Why? Because of the desperation of politicians. So as long as we have not addressed the issue of facts of office, what people, you know, are entitled to when they get into office, there is no proper definition. A governor comes in, he can put all his relation in all the first five star hotel. At the expense of the state, nobody queries, nobody, you know, approves that budget. He does whatever he does with the finance of the, of the this, here the, the accountant general of university now being wanted for, for sponsoring foreign and something billionaires. You hear of accountant general of the federation that is accused of taking out of the system 80 billion without the system shaking, without the system noticing it, without the system. You can't take $5,000 out of the economy of America or five or three thousand pounds out of the economy of, of Britain by the prime minister or by the president of America without the system noticing it and the reasonable allow. But here billions can be taken out without the system noticing it. So it is this inefficiency, inefficiency in checks and balances, you know, that makes politicians to be so desperate. So, INEG does not have the capacity to control how much, you know, is going to be spent despite the fact there has been a specific amounts put in the, in the electoral candidate who's spent. INEG does not have the capacity. INEG does not even have the capacity to organize free and fair elections, credible elections in the first place, let alone not monitoring the show of finances of, of, of candidates. So that inability, you know, of INEG due to the fact that the expressions of politicians are so much that has rendered the entire thing comatose and we're not making any problem. And as long as we have not addressed this fundamental issue of what is available to political office holders when they get into office, it creates the expression and that expression makes them to manipulate and then bridge the system and make the system to be in effective and, and at the end, we are back to square one. Despite the improvement we have done in our electoral law, we have not been able to advance for that because of the fact that we have not addressed the fundamentals. So, Dr. Mandu Bani, it's very obvious that, you know, this delegates are very critical to our democratic process being to, you know, at the party level because that's where it starts from, you know, internal democracy and to the point where you have them electing whoever becomes a flag bearer. But, you know, the money politics cannot be taken away. We have seen, you know, according to reports that we have by Susan Wosu who said that a delegate had described Peter to be as, you know, useless or something like that because he was sharing their agenda, his plan and rather not sharing money. But that's a conversation for another day. Do you think that the problem is in the process, the process of picking this delegate who becomes a delegate? How did they become a delegate? Who are they answerable to? Do you think that if we're able to solve all of those problems, is there a tenure to become in a delegate? At what point do they become delegates and how long do they delegate? Do you think that if we solve all of this problem that we might just have, you know, a solution to solving the money back politics that we experience with the delegates? The point is that the system itself totally is corrupted. The entire system, the entire system because the delegates are made from the populace. I don't know how we're going to do it to get the new rotation, you know, and then get Nigerians properly oriented as to what politics is all about, what governance is all about, how to fix a country, how nations fix their nations. We are yet to get the kind of, you know, orientation that is very important for us to fix Nigeria because the delegates emerge from the populace. So what do we do to get everyone properly, you know, properly, you know, with good orientation as to what we expect to do for this nation, that the nation is dying and that nation is dying because of bad leadership. And the moment we don't get it right at the primary level, in the margins of those who we contest their election, then we end up choosing the wrong people too because there is the wrong persons that have emerged at the primary level, the wrong delegates emerge, the wrong primary candidates emerge, then at the national election the wrong people emerge and then there's no one who can no move. So there is no, there is lack of patriotism all over. If you imagine what you have just said the candidate described by the PTOB has used it because he is showing agenda, he is showing what he can do to rescue Nigeria but he's not showing money. So you can imagine the mentality, you can imagine how low we have gone as a nation and don't be surprised that the person who made that statement may have may be a graduate, may be somebody well educated but the system is so corrupt, the system is so corrupted that it is only money, money, money that is a language, even for those who are educated, even for those who are comfortable, even for those who are comfortable that all these super delegates are you know angling to be to be to be part of the entire process they're all looking for money too. Don't be surprised that if the president signs the bill, even senators will be asking for, of course the stake will be higher. You can't go and give a 200,000 Naira, 250,000 Senators, you'll be talking about 10,000, 20,000 dollars for them, each delegate. So the stakes will be higher and then maybe the reason why the president refused to assign in order not to increase the burden of candidates. So I'm saying that we're in a very big, I don't know how we're going to get out of this problem, I don't even have the solution myself. But Dr. O'Barney, Dr. O'Barney you have the stakes, the stakes of office, that the stakes of office actually increase the desperation and that is the truth. The moment we don't deal with what these guys are entitled to when they get into office, imagine governors when they come in they take up to 1.7 billion out of the system on the ground of what you call security vote. And the system does not check. The system does not cry. Dr. O'Barney, you have to give us a solution. 1.7 billion. Can you hear me sir? Yeah, I mean we need solutions sir. Are you saying that it's a hopeless situation for Nigeria, especially ahead of the 22 and 3 elections, you know that Nigerians can do nothing and we are just going to be at the mercy of delegates and the kind of political system that you are talking about. Is it a hopeless situation for? There must be a new spirit and I need to see that spirit. The spirit of the the people that came out and say enough of this nonsense that is going on in the system. We must stop police brutality and they were ready to shut down the country. The kind of spirit of that particular fair crisis on the genital regime where people gathered at and say enough of what is going on in the country and that is the kind of spirit. Where that spirit comes around and then God allowed that spirit to dwell in every Nigeria and Nigeria now begin to look out for the best and not where anyone comes from. The kind of spirit that made Soludo to emerge in Anambra state. That is the kind of spirit all possible looking out for now in the country where somebody now says no. We cannot continue like this. Looking at the presidential candidate, this is the man that can rescue Nigeria and we are going for him. Even if he goes and joins a small political party that have no structure, all Nigerians will kill him. Kill up in that political party and say this is the person that can change Nigeria. It is only that kind of spirit that can change Nigeria. If we don't have it, I don't know where it's going to come from heaven. I don't know where it's going to come from. That spirit no dwells on every electorate and they say enough is enough. We cannot continue with the kind of bad leadership that have held this country go stage. We must now change our it is a cost. We are ready to break their cost. Thank you very much. I don't know when that spirit will come. The spirit of ensigns. That is the spirit I'm talking about. Thank you very much, Dr. Bani. Increase fuel. Yes, we have to wrap it up. If the spirit I'm looking out for, I don't know whether that spirit can come in 2022 or in 2023. Thank you. Thank you, Dr. Bani, we have to go. We have to go. Without that spirit, without that spirit, we end up also electing wrong persons and they keep retarding the growth of the country. Dr. Bani, sorry to interrupt, but we have to go. You're saying the ensign spirit is what Nigerians need to make things better. That is the only spirit. That is the only spirit. The spirit of no, no, not again. Not, you know what I mean? We cannot accept this again. All right. Thank you. Thank you, sir. We cannot accept it. Thank you very much. There is only spirit, you know. But I'm here to see it, even on this, with the new set up, how things are going, with the new set up, with the new... All right, Dr. Bani, we are out of time. We're out of time, so we have to pull the plugs at this point. We have to go. This is the first set of people who have held this country down. But because of their money back, see what is going on. I'm not seeing any hope. Thank you. Thank you, sir. We have to go. I don't know if you can hear me, sir. And I did not election. But we have to pull the plugs at this point. Up on electorate. And I did not... All right. I'm... As we see, I apologize for the back and forth. I'll probably... Dr. Bani could not hear me well, but he's given his candid view on the issue of the politics of party primaries and delegates. He says that Nigerians need to re-invoke the ends of spirit. Dr. Mando Bani is a political analyst. We appreciate your time. Thank you for having me. Good morning. Thank you very much. Well, that's the size of it this morning. Not entirely. We'd definitely take a break when we return. We'll look at our second conversation. Please stay with us.