 Thank you! We're here. Why? You thought about that? Take a deep breath and think about why you're here for just a second. Beyond your personal reasons, there's a very good possibility that we share in common a vision that might include something like this. How many of you are on board with the idea that we're making a big difference in human well-being? Not on board? Okay, so let's think about where we are for a minute. And first let me give you a quick disclaimer. This is a huge fascinating topic that I'm going to skim coarsely through and you may end up a little confused and that's why we're going to have Q&A. Feel free to interact with me before Q&A but we'll try to clean up any leftover confusions and Q&A. So here we are at a state of time where we're living the future that was not conceived by our forefathers in the middle of a big health crisis. But it turns out that we were living sort of good enough long before antibiotics, long before snack wells, long before bread and farming. And that's what we're trying to look into. What was it that made all that good enough and why are we far afield? How can we turn things around? Well, we have to deal with toxicity. That's the essential issue with oxalates. If we don't deal with toxicity, illness is not going to stop. We looked at that in this last session. Some of you may have heard the last session so we've been warmed up for this topic. But let's keep in mind that a fundamental principle in paleo and ancestral thinking is that constant exposure to toxins, which is our current reality, is harmful. That's the whole point of this topic. So the solution is we need to stop poisoning ourselves. It's very easy to overlook subtle, slow grade, everyday toxicity. Although today it's so obvious and under our noses we can see it. But if you're living it, it's easy to overlook it. And certainly our science and our medical approaches are overlooking low-grade toxic effects and low-grade toxic illnesses. But we know in paleo that toxins really do matter. And we know that plants have toxins. And one of the ones we're not paying enough attention to is oxalate. So let me quickly introduce you to oxalate. There's a lot more than we can cover today. We do recognize in this room, I believe, that plants fundamentally, for their own survival, for their own metabolism, are toxic. Try eating the landscaping. Mom told you when you were three to not do that, right? Here's an example of being maimed by a plant. One second, one drop of sap from the stem of a house plant that you all seen in the mall. Spit out instantly. Put the span in the hospital for nine days. If he wasn't smart enough to spit it out he might have been more severely injured. This is his mouth and the back of his throat. So plants can be maimed. Now, we're going to talk about awareness for a minute. How many of you know which plate is safer? A, B, who has no idea? Right? That's the issue. We have no idea. We look at that plate, we see nothing. One has, let me tell you what's on the plate and I help you. Okay? We have chicken hearts cooked with Swiss chard and onions. We have sweet potato and lots of butter. We have squash, cauliflower, broccoli boiled, beef liver and bacon, which is safer. We don't know. So this awareness issue is what we've got to tackle. Everybody's confused and lost in the woods when it comes to oxalate. We've known that oxalic acid and oxalate is completely poisonous and can kill you when it's purified since the early 1800s. And we've known that people die from oxalate in foods and still do. But we don't know what foods have it and we're not really paying attention to a dietitian or whatever fields you're in. And unfortunately, we're confused because a lot of the data that's out there, even lists of food presented by urology offices, are full of errors. They're incomplete and they're going to misguide you and confuse you. And a lot of people just throw up their arms when they think about oxalate because nothing is making any sense. But we need to recognize that oxalate can be and is affecting deficiency and toxicity. That's the fundamental basis of health. No amount of exercise is going to correct deficiency and toxicity. So let's figure out what is oxalate. This is really tiny, tiny molecule, two carbons, a bunch of oxygens. It's very reactive. It's acid. It drops its protons and has strong charge. It's attractive to metal cations. The oxalic acid is there on the, is this point working out? Up here. And this is in its ionic form. That's ionic oxalate. Do you realize how tiny a molecule that is? It can move around in biology and does. That's the oxalate ion and then it attracts cat ions. Its favorite form in plants and in biology ultimately ends up as calcium oxalate, but it can form any kind of iron oxalate, you know, heavy metal oxalate. And that's considered an insoluble oxalate or is insoluble. And in foods we're getting it both in calcium oxalate, oxalic ions, and we're getting it as potassium oxalate, sodium oxalate, and so on. But you'll see the word oxalic acid and oxalate, they sort of mean the same thing most of the time. Oxalate is so famous to the world of toxicology because the very first experimental study was published in 1823 by Robert Christensen and his partner, Fantastic Study, that was stimulated because in England there had been at least 20 fatal or overdoses of oxalic acid accidentally. And it was so amazing that it was hard to tell what was going on that it became clear to him as a medical jurisprudence guy that this was the perfect murder weapon. Looks just like epsom salts, tastes a little tart, you can put it in any food and kill your lover and nobody would know. So we've got to know how you were killed if that's going to happen. Let's learn about its forms. Crystals is commonly where it ends up. It's crystallizing. In plants this is a very normal part of structure and biology. There's some blocks and these are the diamond-shaped crystals. Those are pretty big. They belong there in the plant. But remember oxalate doesn't have to get that big. It starts off as a molecule that builds up to many molecules become a nanocrystal, which is still invisible to us until very recently. And then nanocrystals can grow into these micro crystals, which are essentially whales in a cell. Most of oxalate is a plankton size nanocrystal relative to the whales. These are mega whales. These are gigantic in plants. In plants they belong. In human tissue that's a pathology. See the bars and chunky stuff in here? That's human tissue. Where is it in our foods? Super high oxalate foods include things you know about. They happen to be the same foods that we are promoting as super fabulous super heroes that are saving our health. Super popular nuts and seeds. Extremely high in oxalate. And some more super foods. High enough in oxalate to cause illness. Anybody eat any of these things? How often? Every day. Now probably in paleolithic times that wasn't happening every day. So what is oxalate toxicity? Too much in the body. Now we expect to see it in the urine because it's technically, although insoluble, it's technically water soluble salt. And that all water soluble toxins are the job of the unsung hero of your life. The kidney. Kidneys, we'll talk about them in a minute. But they're not some kind of basket that we're throwing oxalate in and washing right out. But we tend to think about that in the literature. You look in the literature and say, really you eat it? It goes straight to the kidney and the kidney just right away it's gone. That's not how biology works. Too much oxalate in the body can cause mayhem. And there's lots of different factors that are going to change what kind of mayhem it can cause. Definitely that reactivity affects membranes. You're going to change what's in the outer membrane and depolarize the membrane. Production of free radicals which also causes the death and malfunction of mitochondria. You kill enough mitochondria, you kill the whole cell, and red blood cells are known to explode with too much oxalate in the blood. Changes neurological function first and foremost. You're going to see neurological things happening. Connective tissue loses its integrity. Its ability to recover and maintain itself can become severely retarded. It depletes nutrients, changes the flora that's growing in the colon, and triggers inflammatory reactions. Causes epigenetic effects, anemia, scarring and poor healing, and communication problems with cells. So our vulnerability to oxalates, what's going to make it likely that we end up toxic with oxalate, involves three major factors. One is repeated and continuous exposure. Kidney's ability to clear it out matters a lot, but even more important is our gut health because the way the gut is functioning is going to affect how much that you ingest ends up in your bloodstream and into your system. But the main issue, number one, hands down stratifically more important than anything else is how much you're exposing yourself to day in and day out. Oopsie. But a lot of people are eating high oxalate foods as if they're in some kind of food contest and looking to win a prize. We believe, we're told that spinach and greens are full of these phytonutrients that are saving the day, and we're teaching this. We're teaching this unknowingly, possibly making the next big mistake. So our path to the big health crisis we're on now involves some probably good intentions and some interest in profitability, but no one recognize where we'd end up. So we want to kind of turn that ship around, but what are we going to do? Make the next big mistake? We have to recognize our mistakes quicker and correct them more quickly. Promoting high oxalate vegetables is hands down a mistake. And their availability is unsurpassed now. Walmart, here we have now elevated to the status of produce is chocolate covering almonds. That's in the produce department at Walmart. Hip and eye level, you will find alternative milks featuring almond milk. And now even organic peanut butter, the peanut butter section is tremendous in Walmart available whenever you need it. We are taking staple foods like milk and bread, so on, and now making them with super high oxalate nuts and seeds. The health food stores are now featuring these as the answer to your casein problem, right? This has never been done before. We carry these around thinking we're doing ourselves a favor and going low carb, but that's not necessarily safe for everyone or for anyone because oxalate is universally toxic. Anybody can die or get injured from the toxicity of oxalate. This is not a sensitivity or an allergy. This is strictly poisoning. Now our bodies have coped with oxalate forever. We've been working out with plants forever. We have been eating plants with oxalate forever, but not quite the way we do now. The kidneys normally pretty much cope. And there's a whole story in here. I wish we had time to discuss. The truth, though, is that oxalate kidney stones make up 80% of all kidney stones. They're made of calcium oxalate. 70 years ago, only 30% were. That tells us a lot about what's been changing. And what's the number one fastest growing disease we've had for the last 25 years? Chronic kidney disease and kidney stones. It's like this quiet problem that doesn't get as much funding and attention. Big problem with the kidneys. So today, our kidneys are overwhelmed. We live in a sea of toxins. Look at the carpeting, the padding, the plastic you're sitting on, the perfumes, the pesticides. It's endless. Little 10 year olds now self medicate with cold medicine when they're not in school and are given allergy medicine and so on. All this pharmaceutical, especially the over the counter stuff, is wearing out the kidneys. The inflammation caused by the continual use of sugar. Very hard on the kidneys, probably just eating all the time is never giving the kidneys a little bit like a nap, or time to recuperate and recover. And too much oxalate gets stuck in the kidneys. You don't always get a kidney stone. And this is happening without you being aware of it until suddenly you're in the emergency room with the most awful pain you've ever had. Now there are, we used to, many of us, they say, have bacteria, particularly one that eats oxalate for lunch and dinner and nothing else. And some of more diverse microbes can eat some oxalate, but too much oxalate in the colon and in the system obliterates them. So does antibiotics. Compromise gut health. Ever heard of that? Super big problem right now, right? Our food, our emulsifiers, antibiotics, the anti-nutrients and plant, and certainly oxalate. We're going to talk about that in a minute. Chances are we didn't used to chow down on Swiss chard, spinach, almonds, cashews like we're doing right now, and like we're recommending right now. This is a wild experiment that's going to go bad. So why is oxalate toxic to us? Number one, it's reactive. It causes all kinds of mayhem. If the cells are sturdy and strong enough and they can work up their own antioxidant response, they can handle oxalate and do. But not every cell is in good shape. We have some capacity to eliminate oxalate, mostly through the urine, also through sweat and other kinds of glands, the colon, and maybe even attempts at the lung in the lung. Let's look at oxalate crystals from plants. Over here on the left, you get a double sided sort of diamond-esque crystal that's in a developing soybean seed. And this is some broken apart crystals from the kiwi. These are long toothpicks with pointy ends. These crystals come in many other shapes. There's a disco ball called a druse and all kinds of other shapes. There's very small crystal sand. This stuff is harder than your teeth and simply just causes just abrasive problems. That's called a rapide, these long toothpicks. The plants make them in bundles. And some plants have ejector cells around their bundles and can propel these blowguns into tissues that can go down the depth of two cells and penetrate cells. This is what happened to our guy who ate or let one drop of sap on his tongue from the Diffenbachia plant. That rapide crystal, those needles, have blowgun ejector cells that inject into your cells and bring along with it soluble oxalate proteases and other toxins and help to stimulate that huge immune system response and all that inflammation and abrasion damage in his mouth from one drop. Turns out that the thing that caused that reaction is oxalate. Oxalate in its ionic form but oxalate in that rapide shape, that double ended blow dart or toothpick. The difference being is that Diffenbachia has fancier ways to bundle. The grape leaf, okay, the grape leaf is just doing this straight up bundle. We got to move fast. Kiwis, Diffenbachia man. These crystals are so durable that they're used in lots of research. And we've seen, oh, this is cool stuff. You have heard that if you cook your food, you've eliminated oxalate. Not if it lasts for tens of thousands of years in his heart of sand. That's not how you eliminate oxalate through heat. It's their heat stable. Let's look at this study real quick about accumulation. Really the best study going so far looking at accumulation found that even oxalate consumption at normal garden variety levels are impacting human health. That's news to the kidney world. That you can easily exceed your tolerance for oxalate even though it looks like your kidneys are just fine. And that 4% of what you're eating is being retained in tissues left behind causing issues. Here's some pictures of extreme examples. They see it in the breast all the time. Radiologists are constantly trained to ignore oxalate crystals in the breast. But in fact, we have a new study that demonstrates that the ionic oxalate, the non-crystalline form that you don't see in the mammogram is promoting cancer. This is an example of sort of a non accumulative toxicity. You don't have to accumulate it even though this breast probably has, the breast with cancer has those crystals that they say are not malignant promoting. I see that it is. If you're over 50, 85% of us have crystals in our thyroid gland. That's normal now, accumulation of oxalate in the body, but not good. We've known about oxalate toxicity as a disease syndrome since the mid 1800s. It was called the oxalic acid diethesis. And it was defined as evidence of oxalate crystals in the urine going along with digestive problems and also either neurological problems or pain and rheumatic problems known to have a dietary connection. Wherever oxalates are moving around, they have the potential to be causing trouble. So if it's encountering membranes, blood vessels, neurons, glands and connective tissue, there are some acute toxic effects possible. It can be one toxin affecting any tissues it can get a hold of, including your immune system. And unfortunately, those of us with oxalic acid toxicity have been being ignored from the very beginning. Even the most brilliant leader in medicine, Dr. Golding Bird, who was killed by oxalate toxicity at age 39 from complications of kidney stone problems, implored his followers. He was the expert in urine analysis. He said, this really matters. Even though you always see oxalate in the urine, too much oxalate in the urine is evidence of a pathology in many people. And yet, it's a treatable, simple problem to fix if you catch it early enough, we can reverse a lot of the problems that oxalate causes. But people are being ignored. This is not a diagnosed condition anymore. Have you? Are you aware of how much oxalate you're eating? What if you were a sincere reader of Paleo Magazine and decided to really, you know, do it? And you set up your chia pudding the night before, split it with your partner. You got 220 milligrams of oxalate. You packed your soup for lunch and got 65 milligrams of oxalate. You came home hungry because the soup just didn't hold you. And you needed a little shake so you could make a fabulous dinner and got another 150 milligrams of oxalate. And you made the fantastic roasted chicken with a Swiss chard bed and got yourself another 2200 milligrams of oxalate for a day total of 2.6 grams of oxalate. Is that too much? Or is it okay? Well, this man died from sorrel soup, a big meal of sorrel soup, probably ate under twice the amount that we just ate on our Paleo menu. Now, he was metabolically challenged person. Those are the people who can least afford to eat Swiss chard. Diabetic, obese, alcoholic. Big bat of sorrel soup to compensate for a bad lifestyle, two hours after you arrived at the emergency room, flat line. So, here we are. In the literature, we are told that we all eat 125 milligrams of oxalate a day. That's normal and that's the story we're sticking to in the literature. That normal is 125, maybe 150. But in this very narrow range, we just live down here in this narrow range of consumption oxalate. That's what everyone tells us in the literature. But in fact, your snack after work blew that out of the water already. And this is why you're not hearing about oxalate. Why medical researchers think it's not a big deal? So, now do you know the difference? Which one is safer? What do you think? Can you imagine the difference here number wise? Did anyone have guessed the difference? So, what is a low oxalate diet, 50 milligrams a day? You split that up into three meals. You've got to be under, you know, 15, 20 milligrams per meal. Now, let's talk real quickly about maintenance and triggering. If you're eating a dose that's way out here past the 200s, you're eating enough because it's a spiked dose, right? One meal happens in 15 minutes for a lot of people. A spiked dose, that's a trigger. That triggers accumulation in tissues. Then you continue to eat some oxalates in the 100, 200 range. That maintains that accumulation process, keeps it in place. If you go low, you're going to be in a position to start destabilizing this accumulation that's going on here. We're living in trigger land and maintenance land all the time. If you move somebody down to 50 and below, then you've got something going on that's not always pretty. But it's very interesting, all the benefits that you're going to see. Kidneys cleaning up and then the kidneys are happier, more clearance from the tissues, obviously less coming in, harming your circulatory system. And you're going to salvage all these nutrients that this stuff destroys, especially B6, other vitamins and so on. Calcium, your electrolytes go wacky when you've got too much oxalate in the system. We are getting more and more mineral deficient by over-consuming oxalate. The most high oxalate foods primarily have no calcium available for use because it's all been tied up by calcium oxalate. Even though you get credit in the nutrition tables for having calcium, even though it's all just oxalate. This is big deal. Connective tissue recovery. Now it can maintain and repair itself because oxalate destroys the building blocks of connective tissue. Alright, we're running out of time. Another point of confusion. You go on a low oxalate diet and maybe 20%, especially those who've been really accumulating oxalate for a long time. You're going to have funky reactions, some of these folks, including crystals popping out on nail beds and skin peeling off because accumulation happens in tissues that can't defend themselves. Those flagging proteins, those membrane fragments, those fragments of mitochondria become a lovely ground for a crystal to attach to. And once the crystal's hanging out, the crystals can grow as more comes by. So wherever you've had injury, this woman had severe frost by several years before, maybe 10 years before she went on the diet. It's not true, no matter what the urology office says, that greens need to be eliminated on a low oxalate diet. Here's an example of a bunch of lovely, low oxalate greens, very low, super low in oxalate. So if you've got a lot of chia seeds sitting around, I recommend making some chia pets, giving away some chia pets. Go for it. The myth of the normal range, I think you can imagine that we're not really in the normal range anymore of consumption. And this is a problem. So we're just reviewing here. Let's not let the superfood frenzy be our next big mistake. Let's not be pushing Swiss Chard, spinach, almonds, and cashews and chia. That's my suggestion to us all. I'll take some questions. How much time do we have for questions? Okay, Popeye, this is not a complete list. This is just a superficial overview. There's a bunch of fruits and other problem foods out there that are super high, but these are definitely ones to be leery of. People love their peanut butter and celery snack, not necessarily a great idea than the nuts and seeds. So one that's low in the nut to seed department is the pumpkin seed, very low, and sunflower not too bad, chocolate, teas, turmeric, whole root. And there's lots of ways. This is not a how to and how to do the diet in the least. If you want how to, we need another session about an hour and a half long. But isolated extracts of turmeric is perfectly low, almost no oxalate, but whole root problem. Remember, if you want to ask questions, the easiest way is to line up over here so that you can speak into the microphone. And I do have a question. And that is, if oxalates can be so damaging, but we do have systems like the kidney defense system, the hindgut defense system, microbiota that handle them, are those the systems that, how do those systems work in animals that are largely herbivorous, like great apes, ruminants, other animals that forage a lot, like deer, and probably do consume a lot more on a daily basis than we do, or that's healthy for us. Do they have, is it the longer colon, they have more microbiota that are designed to take care of that excessive load? I have not looked at a dose per pound kind of tolerance level for the large grazers, but there's lots of research of grazers getting terminally ill from oxalate poisoning. If they get into areas of forage that are the super high oxalate plants, they get sick and die too. Lots of it, and sheep, and cattle, and so on. Yeah. Hi. I'm really interested in the digestive health issues associated with oxalate toxicity, and I was wondering if you could briefly speak to that more specifically, like what kinds of issues could arise from that. Inflammatory bowel disease can both be a product, create more vulnerability for absorption of oxalate, but also be the product of oxalate exposure. It's very possible that overexposure to oxalate crystals is creating the expression of celiac disease and these kinds of gut health problems. I have a client who had 13 years of fecal incontinence, and three days she was better. She went through so much pain and agony with lozing her gallbladder to surgery she didn't need, and so on and so forth. She ended up, this went on so long with her almond. She ate almonds twice a day, peanut butter at breakfast time, and spinach at lunch that she developed calcifications in her pelvis and eventually end up in the emergency room with kidney stones, but none of her GI doctors would ever connect oxalates to her fecal incontinence. A follow-up question. I eat almonds and spinach every day, and I have, well, digestive issues, and I'm wondering if I could, if I tried taking those out, if you think that might help. I don't, I know it's hard to say. Absolutely. Your gut would prefer to not have all this nasty sand and abuse to the tissues. If you're going to get healing and recovery, you do need to remove the oxalates from the system, and you need to do it wisely, and this isn't, you haven't yet been shown the path for how to really do it. And people who are eating a lot of oxalate, there's a possibility, without any real research, that the stuff that you've eaten recently is in a kind of bio- available kind of place. It hasn't said a lot of it eventually migrates to the bones where all that calcium is, and it's slower to upheave, but the newer stuff may start moving suddenly, and it's almost like eating all that almonds and spinach all at once, and you can get feeling pretty bad and toxic if you go too fast. Thank you. Thank you for such great talk. What can you tell us about clostridia and oxalates? Clostridia? Clostridia, clostridium. Probably not much. Go. But let's talk about it later. Thank you. Thanks. A lot of us are here as practitioners focusing on weight loss or general health for clients, and I have noticed even in the low-carb world that a weight loss stall can be broken by cutting out nuts, specifically all the almond flour that's used. So I'm wondering is that from downstream effects or do you have any direct correlation or information about oxalates potentially being why the weight loss is stalling? I've seen it in my clients, but not the literature. I had one client who had been stuck with an overeating disorder and an alcoholism disorder her whole life, and at 72, suddenly after learning which vegetables she could eat, she lost 50 pounds and felt like she's completely recovered from being an addict. And now, was that from cutting out just oxalate? Yes, the low oxalate diet just after 72 years. That's a neurotoxicity. And the weight loss thing, I really think so much of weight retention is the body protecting itself from toxicity. And if you reduce the toxic load in your diet, the body takes a breath and really starts cleaning up. It's quite amazing. So I'm personally on an all animal product diet except for coffee, which I don't see on that list. No, coffee's low, you're good with coffee. Okay, good. So that's the number one myth that has everybody afraid of low oxalate is, oh, no coffee, not true. Okay, good, good, good. Okay. So my question is about, I'm trying to group this into one question, but how many, how much oxalate is in medicine or is it different? Does it depend? And also perfume. That was just interesting to me that that was up there. And then I guess this is really three questions. Meat, I'm assuming cows aren't grazing on a Swiss chard, but do they accumulate anything in their tissues? Do you get oxalate from eating meat, from wearing perfume, or taking any medicine? Nutritionally speaking, meat and animal products are free of oxalate, you know, not 100% technically, but in terms of nutrition, just zero. There are medicines that are high in oxalate, and there's certainly a lot of herbs that are high in oxalate, including a slippery elm is terrible. But bigger exposures to oxalate that we're not paying attention to is polluted air, because the burning of petrochemicals creates oxalic acid in the air. And so in Beijing and any kind of polluted area, their oxalic acid is the number one thing in the air. And lung disease very much is connected to oxalate over exposure. And perfume, is that an issue? Not that I know of. Okay. But any kind of, if you're already toxic, thanks to your almond habit, any other toxins, I mean, you're heading for chemical sensitivity. Okay. Okay. Thank you. All right. Well, I'm just gonna assume that most of us are exposed to a lot of oxalate, because we all eat probably a lot more spinach or all these other things. And so we're accumulating these oxalic crystals in our kidneys and bones. Are there anything like supplements like citrate, I know is helpful for, you know, preventing the formation of kidney stones. Would this be helpful for also maybe dissolving some of these oxalic crystals that have been, you know, in already sedimented in bone or other tissues? Yes. Yes, as far as, yes. And we are, this is not a session on how to do it. But citrates are really critical that keeps the nanocrystals from growing and growing. And it helps the system through anywhere, I believe, break them back down, although in cells, it's liposomes doing that work. I'm not quite sure how that mechanism work, but I highly recommend lemon juice and that kind of thing. And the metallic citrates, calcium citrate, magnesium citrate and potassium citrate, all great medicine and considered the number one co therapy that goes with the diet is doing that calcium citrate. And that same line. So if we're trying to, if we want to eat our foods that have some oxalate in there, are there anything that we could like supplement in addition to the meal, like if, you know, there's some calcium, if we add calcium into the meal, could we just chelate our oxalate? Yes, to take your calcium citrate before your meal, reconsider yogurt and cheese in your diet, add a little cheese to your salad or be willing to pick the spinach out of the salad at the restaurant. I mean, it takes about six leaves of spinach to get to your 50 milligrams a day. Six leaves, that big. All right, thank you. Great. And I put about a handful of spinach in my smoothie this morning, so feeling good. So I'm wondering about the foods that also that are high oxalate, but also have health benefits of their own like beets, for example, which can be really good with stimulating bile and kind of liver detox. So would there ever be a case where those foods that are high oxalate those benefits would kind of outweigh the oxalate or could you speak to that? I do not believe that there's a good enough trade off for eating the whole beetroot because the oxalate. But if you can get an extractive beet to get your goodies out of it, that's perfect. Just like with the turmeric, go for the extract, not the whole root, and you down to the no oxalate. The oxalates hang around in the vacuoles and get clinging to fibers and they stay in the aqueous layer. So peanut oil, not that you're eating it, but peanut oil has no oxalates even though peanuts are really high. None of the oils, olives are pretty high in oxalate, but olive oil, nothing. So there's ways of extraction and preparing plant foods that allow you to get what you want without the poison. Okay, got it. Thank you. Going along those lines, would doing like beetroot juice increase the oxalates or does it decrease and generally juicing increases the bioavailability of oxalate. So juicing is supercharging your vegetables for absorption and then you're also breaking out those rapid crystals. I've seen posts online where people use the Vitamix to make a dressing with Kiwi and she heard her mouth. She and her friend heard her mouth so bad eating this Kiwi dressing made through the Vitamix because she liberated all those rapid crystals in the key. Nobody knows that's why that happened, but that's exactly why. So the blender preparation just increases your exposure to the oxalates. Okay, empowering would be the same. So you would have to do an alcohol tincture? Is that when you were talking about? Yeah, I'm not a plant extract expert. Okay. But there's so much research to do. It's phenomenal. There's a lot out there, but we are not paying attention to this scientifically. Thank you.