 Over the past 61 years, Nigeria has held about seven general elections that's in 1993, 1999, 2003, 2007, and many other years ahead. Now, most of them have been marred by voter apathy, electoral violence and malpractices. It is believed that the issues in the electoral processes has cost Nigeria to have leaders of questionable character. But if our elections become free and fair, would this guarantee good governance and leadership? Well, joining us to discuss this is Professor Sokoye. He is the National Commissioner and Chairman of Information and Voter Education Committee at the Independent National Electoral Commission, INEC. Thank you very much for joining us, Mr Sokoye. Thank you so much. So, I mean, there is no... everybody who is up to the age of 18 in this country by law needs to be registered, has to have a voter card and be ready to be part of the electoral process. Now, there is no room, we all know, for good governance if we do not have this conversation of elections. Elections is what will throw up the leaders that would eventually fill these offices and then we can have that conversation of good governance. So, as a country, do you think that we're there yet in terms of having free, fair and credible elections? Have we even scratched the surface or were still, as a nation of democracy, trying to find our way there? Well, I think that we are not where we ought to be, but we have met tremendous progress in our electoral process. Where we were 25 years ago is not where we are today. But I think that given the type of resources we have, given the type of intellectuals we have and also given our pay degree within the African continent, we ought to have made much more progress than we have made as of today. But if you look at our electoral process in times past and then you look at our electoral process now, you can see that there's greater trust in the electoral process than we had before. And then there's also greater use of technology in the electoral process and attempts are being made to reduce human interference in the electoral process. So, I think that Nigerians are beginning to engage the electoral process because they have seen the civil lining and they believe that if the electoral management body cases are together, we are going to have free, fair and credible elections in Nigeria. But we are not where we are, where we ought to be, but I think we have met tremendous progress in our electoral arrangement. Progress, you say, and progress can go both ways. But I want to push you, Father, on something that you mentioned. You said that we've made certain progress in terms of voter participation. Can we really say that, that people are really participating, knowing all of the things that we've seen and what we've been through as a country? Can you say that there are more voters, there are more people who are interested in the electionaring process in 2021 as compared to 2015 or even the years before that? Now, let's not forget, in 2015 we saw a massive turnout for registration, but the percentage of the people that we saw casting their votes reduced. Now, in 2019, it further also reduced. I don't know what we're going to be looking at in 2023, but you obviously have the numbers. You have the statistics. Can we really say that we have more people who are interested in the electionaring process or do we see a lot more voter apathy? Well, you can project on the issue of voter apathy and you will be right. But if you look at our electoral trajectory, we see that in 1996, for instance, the total number of registered voters in Nigeria was just slightly above 50 million. In 1996, we had the total number of polling units in Nigeria stood at 119,974. Now, for the 2019 election, we had the total registered voter population of 84 million and we still had the same number of polling units. So, what the electoral management body has done is to create additional polling units in Nigeria to give better access to the Nigerian people for them to have polling units closer to them. So, we have created additional polling units and we now have a total of 176,996 polling units all over the country. So, when people have more polling units closer to them, there is a tendency that they will engage the electoral process and they will come out to vote. And we also know that during this continuous voter registration exercise, we have introduced an online portal through which Nigerians can do their pre-registration and only go to the INEC head office in the various days or the INEC local government offices and go and complete their biometrics. So, I think that the various steps we are taking will increase voter participation in the electoral process. Let's say, there are also some other issues relating to voter participation. Nobody wants to go to the polling unit and go and vote and die. Nobody wants to go to the polling unit to go and vote and get men. So, when you have a conducive environment, when you have a territorial environment at the level of the polling units, there is a tendency that people may likely go out to go and vote. Men can do this also emerge through the process that can be said to be transparent, that can be said to be legal. There is a tendency for people to go out to go and vote. And also, people's engagement with the electoral process also depends on their own perception whether government is working for them or whether government is not working for them. So, there are a lot of issues that informs voter participation in the electoral process. But, as I say, I think we have made progress despite the fact that the numbers keep increasing and varying, but we have made tremendous progress. And I believe that with the 2023 general elections and the type of measures we are putting in place, we are going to record a better vote-out-on-out in the election. Let's talk about something that you actually, which falls under your purview, which is voter education. We know that the owners, you know, to make sure that elections are free, fair and credible, and people are educated and have the information that they need to be armed before they go to the polls, lies with IMEC. How much grounds do you think you've covered? Because, you know, half the time when we talk about voter education, many people point fingers to the NOA saying that, you know, they need to orientate Nigerians. Yes, they have their job cut out for them. But in terms of voter education, and I'm talking about all year round, I'm not talking about when it's close to an election season, when people start talking about it, or now, when we're talking about election, electronic transmission of results. How much ground has IMEC been able to cover in terms of voter education? And I'm not talking about radio, I'm not talking about TV. Taking the information to the people who need it the most. You know, the electoral landscape has changed completely. The global pandemic has also changed the in-person level of voter education. But you know, this whole issue about voter education, sometimes I find it very difficult to discuss it. This is because what the Nigerian people need relates to the issue of knowing the processes and procedures. In terms of the people's engagement with the electoral process, I don't think we have a challenge with that. Because if we have a challenge with people going out to go and vote, 80-year-old men and 80-year-old women will not go to the polling units as early as 5am in the morning in order to get advantage position, in order to get advantage place to stay so that they can cast their votes early enough and leave. So in Nigeria, the people are begging to be allowed to go and exercise their democratic franchise. But as I say, one of the big issues that tampos the morale of people that limits people's participation in the electoral process is the whole issue about electoral violence. And whether their votes will in truth and in fact count. If we don't have violence at the polling units, if people are not prevented from going to go and cast their votes, if violence does not attend our electoral processes, people will go out to go and vote. If people also believe that at the end of the day after voting and after staying on the queue for a long time that their votes, as expressed through the genuine votes that they have cast, will be the only determinants of who gets elected and who does not get elected, then we go to the polling units. So I think that one, yes, the electoral management body as a body, we need to increase the level of voter education we are doing both on radio or television and also in-person education and also taking into consideration the global pandemic and the unusual circumstances we live in now. We need to change our strategy and we need to find ways and creative and innovative ways and means of reaching the people. Secondly, the political parties must learn how to play by the rules of the game and limit the level of violence we have especially at the polling units. If we do that, more people will participate, but at the level of the electoral management body, we are trying to use technology to limit the initial screening interference in the electoral process and guarantee the genuine votes and genuine wishes of the people. Let me talk about electoral violence. We are looking at November for the elections in Anambra and I have heard INAG complain about the violence that might even ensue during the elections. Recently in Anambra we heard that the APC and APC congresses that happened was marred by violence and these are inter-party situations which is also appointed to what might be expected during the elections itself proper. You have also complained about the situation in the south-east, it is a peculiar one. What is the engagement that INAG is having with the level of engagement that they are having with political parties because they are also part of the problem? I know I have read somewhere that constitutionally political parties also have a fair share in voter education and making sure that they carry people along because they are the ones who are seeking for votes here. But we hardly see that, we only see political parties show up for campaigns and sharing of wrappers or salt and little monies here and there or even bribing voters on election day. So what level of engagement is INAG having with political parties? That is one, two prong price question. Secondly, in terms of being disciplined, how disciplined are these political parties again in terms of their finances? There have been many lawsuits against political parties. In fact, backing of the FOI for them to make public their party financing because there has been a cap on these bendings. But we never see anything followed through. I do not know what INAG's engagement again is with these political parties to make sure that they do it by the books. We engage the political parties. We go quarterly consultative meetings with them. And if there are concerns we have, we put those concerns across to the political parties. And if there are issues that they also believe the commission needs to deal with, they put those issues across to them. And then we express our concerns relating to the way they are organised and the way they are managed. Especially in relation to their party primaries. Yes, the issue of the conduct of party primaries is within the exclusive domain or rim of the political parties. But the constitution and the electoral act, especially section 87, enjoys them to conduct valid and legitimate party primaries before their aspirants can transport into candidates. So we do engage with them and we do express our concerns. But in relation to the finances of political parties, what they do before we leave the ban on political activities is strictly between them and the security agencies. But as an electoral management body, we have our election and party monitoring department that monitors campaign financing and campaign spending and also issues the report and lays those reports before the National Assembly. So the challenge is that our economy is a cash economy and some of these transactions relating to political parties hardly go through the banks for us to monitor them. But I think that we are doing our best within the limited context in which we are operating and within the ambit and purview of the law. OK. Let's talk about the introduction of technology into the electoral process. Many have advocated for voting. I mean we've had the card readers also introduced to it. This year, the biggest story obviously is the fact that we are all asking for the electronic transmission of results when it comes to elections. And we were hoping that that would happen, especially with a number. But you have said, I have had you on this show before and you have said that you have tested this and you are certain that you can do it. Although there is still that in Broglu and that back and forth as to you having to work with the NCC to see if it is doable. But again, I want to understand, how are you addressing the challenges that come alongside these technological issues that might become teething problems during the election? Well, you know, as an electoral management body, we do not rule out our technological solutions unless we believe that we have tested them and that they are robust enough for us to deploy. Now, as far as the commission is concerned, our own conception and our own view of the electronic voting systems involves four components. The first component we have a hold on and that is a biometric voter register. We already have a biometric voter register. So we've dealt with the first component. The second component relates to the issue of biometric accreditation of voters. That we also have a hold on it because we were using the smart card reader for purposes of voter accreditation. But now we have introduced the INE voter enrollment device and the BEVAS voter accreditation system. So we have a hold on that. The fourth component relates to electronic ballotting. We are here to introduce electronic ballotting in Nigeria. But what we intend to do is that we have invited some companies to come and demonstrate to us the type of electronic ballotting solutions they have. And over 49 companies responded. So our view is that we want to purchase at least 200,000 electronic voting machines for the election. The fourth relates to the issue of electronic transmission of results. As of today, we are still dealing with the issue of the legal framework that we backed that up. So I think that we are dealing with some of these issues. And with the type of technology we have introduced in the electoral process, Nigerians are beginning to impose more confidence and more trust in the electoral process and they know that with technology the issues will get better. But we are not saying that the introduction of technology will obviate all the electoral challenges we have. No, technology will only aid what we are doing but it will not obviate all of it. The human element in the issue of elections, we still come to play. But we are doing our best in making sure that we deal with the issues. Why are we on the issue of the National Assembly on the electronic transmission of results? I know that there's been a pause of sorts before they went on their recess, but they're back. And the committees have been set up. For INEC, are you hearing any whispers? Are they telling you how long this process is going to take? Is there going to be any delay whatsoever? Can it be explored during the November elections in a number of states? Or are we going to have to wait for 2023? Well, you know, on the basis of what we are doing as of today, the commission operates on the basis of the existing law. And the existing law as of today relates to the constitution of the Federal Republic of Nigeria, 1999 as amended and the electoral act 2010 as amended. So we are proceeding at peace with the existing law in relation to the electoral process. What we have said is that for the governorship election in Anambra State, we are going to use the beavers for purposes of voter accreditation because the beavers will read the fingerprint and if the fingerprint fails, it will read the facial and if the facial fails, the implication is that the person who has come to vote is not the owner of the permanent voter card or the person is engaged in identity theft. We have also said that we are also going to use the beavers for the purposes of uploading the polling unit results from Anambra State. So we are proceeding in that particular direction. But if at the end of the day, the National Assembly concludes work on the electoral legal framework and the president assays to it, then we will see which part of that particular electoral legal framework affaith the elections in Anambra State. But we have had a brainstorming discussion on that and we have everything under control and under wraps. Let's talk about conflicting court orders before we wrap this up. We know that the electoral calendar has somewhat shifted shape because of court orders and candidates who have been displeased with election results going back and forth and that's why we are even having the Anambra Governorship election in November of 2021. But there have been also people who have made claims that there is a plan to rig the elections come 2023. How is INEC dealing with these conflicting court orders, especially with the case of the PDP, which even got the attention of the CJN? I think that the Chief Justice of the Federation has wedded into the whole matter and we are happy with that level of intervention. The President of the Court of Appeal has also wedded into that particular situation and decided to set up a special panel to deal with all these conflicting court orders. So we have some level of order now in relation to some of these conflicting court orders. But going forward, we believe that one of the things we need to do is to designate specifically the court that has jurisdiction relating to pre-election matters. And we have said that only the federal high court and the courts where the cause of action accrued should handle pre-election matters going forward. But as of today, the legal framework says that pre-election matters can be handled by a state high court, the federal high court, or the high court of the federal capital territory. And that is why people move from one jurisdiction to the other to go and look for court orders, or shop for court orders, knowing that those courts do not have both substantive and jurisdictional jurisdiction to handle those court orders. But I believe that going forward, the new electoral legal framework may have a hold on that and then we may have some level of order going towards the 2023 election. Well, thank you very much for being part of the conversation. First of all, Chloe is the National Commissioner and Chairman Information and Vulture Education Committee with the Independent National Electoral Commission, INEC. Thank you very much for speaking with us. We appreciate it. Happy Independence Day. I send to you I appreciate this opportunity. All right. Well, thank you all for staying with us. The conversation continues. We'll take a short break now. When we return, we discuss the freedom of the legislature and the judiciary in Nigeria. Stay with us. Thank you.