 That's right. Providing everything. That's right. Well, I got it. Open up. I see it. You're back. Some five memories out there. They're just starting to put them all in. I don't know what they're saying. They're all big 10s. I don't know what they're saying. Oh, really? I'm going to keep it up. Treats you right. I know. I know. I can't get used to the school. I'm going to be in the high schools. When the school starts, they can bring me back and start practicing football. Last night, down in my old town down there, was the way in, you know, and they brought all the kids in. How many on the team weighed that? He said a lot of them were that way, but he said we had some big guys like Ozzy. Well, Ozzy wasn't big. Ozzy was a fast back. Oh, he was fast. Dick Crane was the big one. He was about a 210-pound fullback. He mentioned over six-foot. Ozzy Simmons had a peculiarity, which show him no mercy, Schmidt, at Ohio State. Remember, he had seen him playing high school football. Sounds like a Democrat. Didn't you know that was his nickname? Show him no mercy, Schmidt? I heard Woody Hayes. No. Well, Schmidt had seen Ozzy play in high school in Texas. Oh, I see. And when he was out there, and he saw him break into the clear and approaching his safety man, and Schmidt later said he knew what was going to happen, and he said, because he'd seen it in Texas in high school, and it happened, and he said he could never forgive himself for not warning his players about it. Ozzy's trick was he held the ball in one hand, and suddenly when he's in an open field and coming up to a tackler, he would hold the ball out. He'd just do that right in the fellow's face, and the guy would make a grab at the ball, and Ozzy was past it. And he did this. And he did it. Yeah. I'll be done. Well, listen back to the... Oh, this isn't part of the interview. No. Actually, this is going pretty good. You want to put this on tonight? I'll tell you tonight, there are more people watching football or getting their kids ready, I'll tell you. Number one, thanks a lot. I wanted to just talk today, if I could, about more of your personal feelings through a very tough time in your presidency. And I, you know, this is kind of a demarcation point. How do you feel about it? Was this an embattled time, especially? Well, naturally, it wasn't the happiest of times, and sometimes I'd get annoyed at the interference with what I thought was getting on with the things that should be done. But, Hugh, I have to tell you, I never felt too upset because I knew I'd told the truth and that the truth would have to come out and did. But how'd you keep smiling? Because a lot of people wouldn't believe you. Still a lot of people question, you know, whether the, or at least think that you haven't told everything according to the polls. Yes, I did. And what it used to make me smile a little bit was the fact that I had, was the first one to tell them about such things as that there was extra money and so forth. And, good Lord, I appointed the first commission. And it came in long before this would start with a lot of the information that was new to me and that I had to hear for the first time. This was a pretty heavy siege, though. How did you keep your optimism? It was pretty sustained throughout that period. Well, as I say, I just had faith in the truth. There wasn't any doubt about it. What was, how tough was it, though, to see those close to you affected by this? Was it Reagan or children or old colleagues? Well, I think that those that were close around me kind of took their cue from me. But I did hear from a great many friends who expressed again their faith and trust and that was very pleasant. Was there a low point in this eight months or so? No. Anything make you angry? I kept reading these stories about sometimes you got sore here and there and what people said. Well, sometimes. Sometimes I got a little angry before all of this in finding out when I learned of things that I had not been told. Was there a period of discouragement at all? No. You never got down that far? Nope. You had every faith you were going to come out? Yes. You think it's over with pretty much now? I think it is in far as the audience is concerned. A number of people have said that the thing that bothers you, friends have told me that, was that one of these polls that said the people thought that you were holding back. Now can you recover that? Do you fully expect to restore the credibility? Yes. And one thing that did encourage me, naturally no one's going to be overjoyed at seeing a poll that finds the people thought you weren't telling the truth. But then one other poll asked an added question. And that was a question of the people who said that they thought I wasn't telling the truth. They asked them, well, you know, what did they think about that? And the overwhelming majority of them thought, well, of course, there are always going to be things that a president shouldn't tell. And it's true at whole different aspect then on that first question and the answers to it. Did you end this period at all? Or how did you feel about the group of men that were involved in this that had been on your staff? How do you end this period now with your feelings about North and Point Dexter and McFarland? I heard them out. I can understand why they did what they did and what their motives were and certainly they weren't bad motives. And I'm just sorry that it turned out that way. The truth that I told the first time once Ed Meese came in here and said there was a piece of paper that indicated there was more money than the purchase price of the weapons and that somehow that money was in a Swiss bank account and so forth. All I fall back on is I am the one who went on the air and told the people that and told the press that in the press room and that I had appointed a commission to find out what there was to know about this. What was your big mistake or was there one in all of this? Do you pinpoint something you shouldn't have done or should have done that you didn't do? Well, you see in a covert operation like that and the covert operation was a response by us to an appeal from this other group of individuals who wanted to discuss better relations with our country and it had to be covert for their safety because they were not contrary to what some of the people have said. I was not doing business with the Homanie. In fact, quite the contrary. These were people that were anticipating another government to follow him and if you'll remember at that particular time almost every day there were reports of his failing health and his days were very numbered and so forth and they wanted to talk about a better relation than we have with the present government. How did you get through those days when the hearing started, Mr. President? Did you read the papers as normal? Did you follow it closely in the papers? Actually, I didn't change my pattern or my schedule much at all. Occasionally, I might have a few minutes and step into the next room and turn on the TV just to see who was on and so forth and I didn't have to depend on the press or our legal counsel can be informed. So you had some internal information as well. Did you give up any reading at all? Did you try to avoid it at all? No, I see. But you watched a little of it. Did you talk it over with Mrs. Reagan? Did she keep an eye on it? Well, she probably didn't watch any more than I did. But you felt current throughout the time. You felt you knew what was happening. What is your feeling in general? Is this sort of thing inevitable in this office at some time or another in the presidency? I've been through seven presidents, and it seems to me every administration at one time or another has... Has an investigation by the Congress? Well, something goes sour, you know, or something goes off. What's your broad view of it? Well, Hugh, actually, all that I remember is, you know, for a half a century now, with only an exception of a few years, the Congress, both houses, has been of one party. And I think if you check back, every president of the opposite party has been investigated for something or other. But I don't recall any investigations of the presidents when the presidents and the legislature were of the same party. Yeah, I see. Well, what you're suggesting, if I'm correct, is that there's a lot of politics in this. The presidential election have much to do with it. Well, I'm not going to comment on that. You're not going to comment. You're going to stay on that. Maybe I shouldn't have said what I just said. Well, now, did you keep a diary throughout this time? Well, I've kept a diary from the first day here. And actually, Hugh, the reason for that was one thing I learned after the eight years as governor, that the schedules are such, and the succession of things and the meetings, that getting out of that eight-year experience as governor, I suddenly realized that memories were... Well, there were things that I could remember, but I couldn't tell you whether they were in the first or the second term. And then I realized there were a lot of things that I just could not if I had to recall, and it was a very busy eight years there. And so when we faced with this job, Nancy and I both said this time, let's keep a record so that that won't happen. Through this particular stressful period, then you've kept pretty good notes on it. As a matter of fact, I made some of those diary notes available to the investigators. Somebody told me you also kept your regular meetings with Edmund Morris. He's working on the book. Yes. So that there is that. Do you have any surprises when that comes out? I don't think so. Well, not to me. I see. You know that. Did you expect when you became president, having seen, of course, what happened to Lyndon Johnson and Nixon and Truman and all of them, as you mentioned before, did you expect that anything like this would happen, that there would be an episode in your presidency? Were you prepared for that possibility, to guess what I'm saying? Well, I think, Hugh, I think after the eight years as governor also, you know that there's always a target painted on the chief executive's door. And no, the big surprise, however, was exactly what we said. First of all, my reaction when our covert operation was exposed by that leak in Beirut and our press immediately went up with it. My reaction there was just one of, and I voiced it to the press at every opportunity, and then it was echoed by David Jacobson, the hostage that came home at about the same time. And that was, please, you can get some people killed by talking about this and asking about it. And I had in mind the people we were dealing with as well as our own hostages, because when Jacobson came out, the word we had was that there were going to be a couple of more in just a few days. And that was all that was on my mind. Well, then, when, as I say, Ed Meese was the one that saw that one paper that indicated that there was somehow more money and in a Swiss bank account, this was just the biggest surprise in the world, because we hadn't set out to trade hostages or arms for hostages, even though I have always, I always feel a great responsibility to do everything possible to get back the hostages except ransom. And I knew that the arms we sold were priced at $12 million, and we got our $12 million. That had come back before the exposure and all. And it was just such a surprise that first, well, the very next morning, he agreed with me that we had to make this known. And we called in the joint leadership of the Congress, both houses and both parties, and told them, and then I went immediately into the press room, and then, as you know, a short time later, went on the air. What are one of the points in this whole thing, Mr. President, was why did the failure or the fact you didn't just summon Oliver North and say, you know, lay this all out for me? Was there some reason or some... Well, whether our thinking was right or wrong at that point, and we were all agreed here that with this now exposed, and mind not having been told, that they just had to leave the National Security Council. They could not continue. So I thought of that before I thought of any questions or anything, and I think they both felt the same way. And it got swept up in all the litigation of the process that I see. But finally, how do you think history will deal with this, looking down the road? Do you think it's going to fade away in the minds of people next few years? Well, it is my hope that once everything is settled and known, history will deal with it as the big investigation that finally discovered that the President was telling the truth from the very beginning. I see. And will you still be in office when that's established, do you think? Well, I would like to see it established very quickly. I see. Is it getting tougher in your judgment, now you've been here seven years, tougher to run this place in this city? You invented the term inside the Beltway, which implies a certain environment that doesn't reflect national sentiment. Has that become increasingly difficult to work in? Well, I don't know whether it's any different than it's been for anyone else. I do know that four years back there has been a kind of friction between the executive branch and the legislature in an attempt to erode the powers of the President. Has that gotten worse? I don't really know. Because I came here with minus some powers that previously Presidents had had. Naturally, seeing it from the executive office side, I believe what's being attempted is a mistake. I think there are some things that can't be run by a committee of 535 people. And when you stop to think back over history, we have been in my life, well, in the lifetime of the nation, I should say, five declared wars. But history will reveal that Presidents have sent military forces of the United States into action 125 times. And without it being a declared war and on the assumption of the executive branch that it was essential for the security of the United States to do that. Your feeling then is that in all the actions you took, to the extent you knew anyway, it was perfectly legal. Yes. There wasn't any problem with the War Powers Act, or your authority, or any of that. No. Going back to that one question, you do not see then any evil man involved in this on our side. I'm talking about your NSC White House, nobody that you would point to as a culprit. Well, this would get me into trying to comment on all that took place in all these hearings and all. And I can't say that not having seen them any more than that, getting summaries of them today that I just don't think that I should risk making such an assertion of all of the people that have been mentioned in the hearings. It's getting rather lengthy roster. Take it from the other side then. Who is the most help throughout this period for you in terms of morale and guidance? You know, it had to be somewhat of a burden. They added on to the normal job. Well, you mean outside of my wife? Number one, she was. Yes, but no, from the very beginning. Not only the people here, in the White House, and some outside, but also friends and supporters that have gone out of their way from the very beginning to express their confidence in me. And it was very heartwarming. Now, how's your wife buck you up, Miss Reagan? Well, because she knew I'd told the truth, too. I see. Well, you answered that. A lot of comment, Mr. President, that you seem older and look older. How do you feel? I read the Wall Street Journal this morning, I suppose you did, too. A long piece about it. No, I haven't read the Journal this morning. Whoops. I have to get a copy of that. Is there something in there about that? Well, it just had a piece in column 8 saying, you know, the President seemed to be losing steam in this. It was one of those ambiguous pieces to be true. But anyway, a lot of comment on that. The feeling that you were slowing down in these last months, not only because of the burden, but just because of just older. I don't know about any slowing down. I do know that the, other than my nose, the last operation that I had, I did without anesthetic and got up off the table and went upstairs and put on my ranch clothes and went to Camp David. It was a Friday and finished the day with a swim there and the next day with a horseback ride. And some doctors seemed to be a little surprised that I could have done that. They didn't think it was ordinary. But no, I feel just fine. And I haven't slowed down any. The pace is the same. And every night the schedule for the next day and the homework for the next day arrives and that's my bedtime reading and so forth. Well, the other part of that theory is that your friend said that you were going to be more combative than normal in these last 18 months. Well, that would have been true even without this other thing. And that has to be because I think we've accomplished a great many things in these six and a half years. I think the fact that we're within two months of having the longest expansion period in the nation's history, economic expansion and all. But I think there are things that I will regret all my life if we don't get them pinned down. And so that, well, for one thing, the great problem that from the very beginning has faced is the deficit that I had thought at one time we could get balanced. But that was during the campaign and I had had a group of economists who were working on the plan that we followed. But no one's ever asked me, so I'll tell you, before the election those economists came to me and told me that the deterioration had now been so much greater than when they made their study that, no, there was no way that we were going to, in a few years, be able to balance the budget. But we put the plan into effect anyway, aimed at whenever it can happen. But now with this deficit spending and our Economic Bill of Rights, as we call it, that is based on some things that are just essential and that is a balanced budget amendment. And it's a strange thing when I heard some of the congressmen talking about their obligation to the people and to do what the people want. The polls show that 80% of the people want a balanced budget amendment. I see that. The Constitution. And also what 43 governors have and what I had as governor and that is the right of line item veto. I think those are essential tools. I would like to see those in place and a program in place. Well, the Graham-Rubin and Hollings program is dedicated to this also that is aiming at a point down here where the budget will be balanced and from then on have to stay balanced. Having had that in our Constitution, I think about 44 states have that in their state constitutions. We had it in California and I have to tell you, it is a guarantee when you know that as executive officer you're responsible that when you come to the end of the budget year the revenues have to have matched the outgo and of course the answer to those people who think that, well, then let's just raise the revenues. Well, we've done that a few times and if you want to look back in history virtually every tax increase has led to lower revenues when the rates were higher because of the lack of incentive and the search by people to find tax shelters and so forth and since our tax cuts have gone into effect the revenues now are bigger and to those liberal minded individuals who always want to aim at the top earners and say make them pay the heaviest load they do pay the heaviest load and the truth of the matter is the top earners today are paying a higher percentage of the total revenue or paying a higher percentage of the total tax than they were before even though their rates have been reduced now that means that they, there is the proof that those people who were in brackets where they looked for tax shelters and so forth or didn't earn extra money because it wasn't worth it now with a lower tax rate the incentive is there for them to produce more and as a result they do pay a higher tax and it's at a lesser lower rate one more question one more question here you've had five careers as a kid as a sportscaster, as a movie actor as a governor and a president which has been the most fun? well I have to tell you something I have been blessed I've enjoyed every one of them I am still very proud of seven summers as a lifeguard that ranks right up there I had a log with 77 notches in it for them to pull out but then sports announcing I thought that was my career and yet I had always going through school, high school and college I had always, in addition to athletics I had always been involved in the dramatic dramatic club and that sort of thing in the class plays and when out of the blue literally came an opportunity to switch from sports announcing to acting and I loved that and all I can tell you is I fought like a tiger against ever running for office I thought that was for someone else that I would do what I had done for other candidates like my speeches for Barry Goldwater that I would campaign for others and I was beset in 1965 by this group that insisted that I had to seek the governorship against the incumbent governor then because the party was divided and all I fought like a tiger not to and finally I couldn't sleep nights and Nancy and I said yes but then I have to tell you we'd only been there a few months and one night we looked at each other sitting in the living room at Sacramento and said this makes everything else we've ever done look as dull as dishwater so you went on went the distance now what are you going to do when you get out? well a lot more ranching than I get to do now and I anticipate that I look forward to that but I have a hunch I will be back on the mash potato circuit campaigning for things I believe in and people I believe in in this case Mr. President you're going to do some fenced cooler season and you have fires going in both fireplaces all day long we'll be doing that but every morning we'll be riding I saw I was up at Ralph Regulus office the other day and he has pictures of you you sent to him making a fence out of telephone poles did he explain to you why? he's got the pictures? because he's got some property he's got a fence and I tried to give him all the directions and write the directions that I could and then I did send him pictures to show him they're pretty good you're right behind I guess thank you well you're on tonight you got any butterflies? are you up to this one? well I'll be sitting at the same desk so I can always duck you've done that before I'm glad you got around to some of the future here what we were going to talk about was what we are going to do for the next seven months well I was just curious a personal response through a tough time now on to the next one there's I can tell a lot can happen in what 18 months I guess don't walk away with that I'm going to tear your neck tight that's great enjoy your vacation you look in good shape you look better shaped than I feel and thank you for some kind words on the weekend show I like those guys they outnumber me that's great that's great thanks a lot I'll be back