 everyone to come back for a very last session of this two-day symposium. So the last session is titled Curatorial Ecologies and I'm very grateful for you three. I just want to say also that Philipp Beither, who was supposed to be with us today, also had to cancel. So today was a yes, an event marked by, yes, many, yes, we were talking about that earlier, so it is part of the room in many ways. Philipp is okay, but yes, had to stay in Minneapolis and in Chicago. So he's sending his warmest thoughts, is with us in spirit and yes. So I'll just pass it on to Angela. Thank you. Thank you, Noemi. And thank you, Villalbertine, for hosting this. We're at our final conversation. I don't know how you are feeling. It's been incredibly rich and complex and I'm just trying to take it all in and absorb and I think I really want to acknowledge the prompt by Noemi and Villalbertine also to be in the moment. So we've all taken a lot of notes. We think deeply about this work. We are embedded in these practices, but I'm processing in this moment too of everything that was shared and I really want to thank everyone's candor. And for this final panel, bringing at that level of urgency that I think that it's been a thread throughout the last two days and maybe continue on with themes of hope and themes of aspiration and themes of the future. So again, we're at curatorial ecologies. Some of the questions that were posed initially were, what is the role of a dance curator in this cultural moment? What are the urgencies that guide the work and take into account the stark social inequalities in these political and economic times? We were asked to think about our accountability to artists, our accountability to audiences locally and globally. We're thinking about the responsibility of the presenting field, considering these ecological challenges we face while we can continue to nurture exchanges locally and globally. Those were the initial prompts and there's so many more prompts that have arisen in the last couple of hours like, where do we go panel? We were just sitting here talking like, okay, we could take this a lot of directions. So I ask all of you in the room as well, this is our final chance to chat. So these wonderful panelists have been asked to prepare a few moments of insights and introductions. We'll have a bit of a chat and then I think we might open it up a little bit earlier, also with our respondents, Allie Rosasalis as well. Start thinking about your questions because I think again we want to maybe have this final panel maybe link to future conversations where we can find each other and continue on. The additional questions I posed to these wonderful colleagues also were, why do we do this work? And I mean it really like, yeah, like with humor, but also earlier today, you know, our humanity was really called to the room, you know, themes of life and loss. And I add to that love, love life and loss. Why do we do the work? I do it because I love it. And the care around it and the relational aspect, the relationships, the people. What is the imperative? What's at stake if we don't continue on? We're talking about global exchange. What's at stake if it goes away? What's at stake for us? We all might view that differently. And again, going back to the aspirations, where can we go? What are the aspirations around the work? Doritay mentioned earlier, how do we reduce the distance between us? That stuck with me. Just now the panel was, how do we face these complexities? How do we adapt the models? I want to turn it over to our panelists and also to suspect that in the last panel we started to talk about again infrastructure and institutions. We're going to talk about institutions. This is made with a dialogue to talk about what we're doing within the institutions. And I just want to really honor and thank these three amazing individuals that I'm sitting with. I've known for some time. And to say we are all three-dimensional. That came up earlier today. We are three-dimensional human beings doing the work within a particular context. Where are you at? Give us some insights about what you're doing and where we can go. So to start us off, Janet Wong, thank you so much for kicking the dialogue off today. You are Associate Artistic Director at New York Live Arts and Bill T. Jones, Arnie Zayn Dance Company. Can you just share a bit more about your perspective and background and of the various prompts that I gave and have come up in the last couple of days? What's on your mind? Well, I'm a little bit nervous now. You know, so, so many thoughts in my mind. But I'm supposed to talk about myself first and how I came to sit in this position of privilege in an organization, the tiny little organization, but with a big, you know, heart. I want to say big heart. But there's David Thompson. Okay, so I was a dancer. I was a ballet dancer, you know, and I have been working with the Bill T. Jones Arnie Zayn Company since 1996. So I'm quite old. And I, you know, just think about this morning, archives, I feel like I'm a walking archive of everything and it's constantly evolving, constantly evolving. And I lean on that, that we are constantly evolving. Even the organization, can an organization be in perpetual evolution? So I became the rehearsal director of Bill T. Jones Arnie Zayn Company. We took the word dance out of the company just to say we can do anything inside of a performance space. Sorry. And, and then I became the other associate artistic director in 2006. And then in 2011, 12 season, New York Live Arts was born out of the merger between the Bill T. Jones Arnie Zayn Company and this historical, very important organization called Dance Theater Workshop, which was formed in 1965, which I'm sure most of you know of. And at that time, we were quite separate, the company and New York Live Arts. And then in 2016-17 season, I became also the associate artistic director of New York Live Arts and I co-curate the programming at New York Live Arts with Bill T. Jones with literally no experience. So if I had applied for the job, I would not have gotten it for sure. So I'm still learning. Judy remembers when I called her, please, can I have some information? My study, my learning still continues, right? It's ongoing, ongoing. That's confusing. That's something like that to you. Always learning, always learning. And so we are a very small organization, like I said, with a big whatever. And we present movement-based, body-based performance work, present presentations are usually through partnerships. And we also do most of the work that we present is actually through our residency commissioning programs. And we work with artists, national, United States artists and also some international artists. And we're hoping to do more of that. And of course, oftentimes it's with the help of Vila Abetine and partnerships with other organizations that we can do that. So today, what can I talk about? There's so many proms and I thought maybe I can bring it back to the idea of international exchange and the fact that I'm sitting here in this room, French, Vila Abetine, and that is part of the dance season, a year-long dance season. And concurrently there is the Dance Reflections, Banclaiff and Arpels festival that's city-wide running from, it started last week and it's going to go through December. The bulk of it is these two weeks. I'm thinking where are the Americans? Where is the American equivalent to this? Why are we not putting out, I mean, Banclaiff and Arpels? Where's Tiffany's? I've been saying. Right. And so I want to talk about a few more obsessions. One of them is this. There is a lack of visibility. I'm not even going to talk about the local problems. I'm just going to talk about the lack of visibility and opportunities for American artists at this moment. And this is totally not academic research. So I mean, just scouring the recent festivals in the summer like Montpellier, Avignon, Lyon, that's not in the summer. Festival du Marseille, like almost zero Americans. Right. And when you look at if they're not living in Europe in particular, like Festival d'Otto right now, there is, of course, Tragile Harrell, who's the portrait. Spans the whole fall. And then there is Trisha Brown Company. I think because of her roots, the company's roots in France, but also Noé Sullya making a work for the company. And then there's Fadrisco. And all of you in Paris, please go and see that work. It's the third part of her trilogy. Thank you for coming space and it's the end of November, I think. So I'm thinking, what is this lack? Where are the Americans? And in my capacity at New York Live Arts, we try to create a platform for the artists to share their work, especially during the January conferences, APAP. And what's the other one? ISPA, the international version of it. So we do the thing called Live Artory, where the whole building's taken over. We have studio showings. We do fully produced performances in the theater and we even started a salon in the lobby. So the whole space is taken over. And so please come back in January. That's the chance to see American artists and also international artists. And we are limited by fiscal space. We have a very small space and also time because it's limited and also funding. But this year, this next one, we're going to expand outside of a wall and partner with organizations to create more opportunities. And the way that other countries support their cultural export, I can only be so jealous. Like, for example, the French, of course, and also Canadians, the Germans, the Koreans, the Taiwanese, the Finnish, the, oh my God, if you've been to SINARS, I was invited for the first time to SINARS this past last year, last year, which is a Canadian APAP. And there were almost no American artists present because you need a subsidy from this different country to be there. There were maybe two or three booths from Americans. There's a whole exhibition hall there. But then there is the Scandinavians, the whole, that whole region. You know what I'm saying? They came together and they supported their artists. That was a German showcase. That was like, damn, right? And people were asking me, people who run big festivals, dance festivals, they said, what is happening in the United States? So I tried to invite the chairman of the NEA, the National Demand for the Arts. I just called, emailed her. Dr. Maria Rosario Jackson and Michael Orlov, who was in charge of international partnerships, to come to the symposium, see what's happening, see what is not happening. And they have their annual Arts Council today, actually, so they cannot be here, but we're going to report, send them a report. I also invited people from the Mellon Foundation. Of course, Emil is part of that Arts Council, so we're also going to report to them. I like to cold email people. And sometimes you get a response, right? Sometimes you get a response. So, you know, I think the Americans should really step up. Yes. Because cultural exchange is more important than ever. Look at this moment of the lack of diplomacy. Look at this moment of the lack of exchange. We are sitting here, watching this thing unfold in Gaza. So, okay, I've probably used up all my time, but can I just jump in? I'll use some of Philip's time. So, my second obsession is about the environment, talking about exchange, right? And, I mean, do we stop this international exchange? I don't think that's the way to go. I know there are artists that say, okay, I'm going to stop making work that I'm going to find another way. I'm going to just send concepts across the pond, and then they can make it up. That's great. That's another way, but not everyone can do it. There's something about face to face. Look at all of us here today. Look at what we talk about during lunch. So, that's important. So, that's my obsession. I think the United States, again, sorry, I'm going to be kicked out of this country. I'm an immigrant. The United States is lacking lagging behind Europe. I, you know, I started with my colleagues, a few of my colleagues at New York Library, it's a green initiative, and we're like doing a little things here and there, and you know, changing all of our, the things we use cups. I personally take those things to the composting, and then I dump them into the bin myself, and, oh, Giselle Vienn set. If you've seen Giselle Vienn's piece, the walls that were built at FTI Montreal, and then they were shipped to Chatham, and then they were cut down in size a little bit more for New York live arts. So, they were going to go into the trash, wrap around walls and white copying. So, I said, no way. I'm the head of the green initiative. So, I just cold-email a bunch of theaters in New York, and guess what the next day, and why your theater department say, we'll take it all. So, yes, right? So, little things. What do you say just now? You don't, if you don't know that it's impossible, you just go ahead and do it. Yeah. So, we all have to do our thing. I know we live in a place where we can turn on the air conditioner, but somebody else is dying in the global south, not even the global south. Here, right? Look at all the fires and the floods have been happening. And then my final last obsession, I have a lot of obsession, but my final obsession is not even aspiration. I don't know where to go with that. I'm, Lauren, Lauren said it so well. I just want to say it because I have a mic right now that I oscillate between forgetting about what's going on in Gaza and suddenly remembering it, and my body goes into this traumatic, I don't know what. And, you know, I wrote to the White House four times, and the last one was all caps. Seasfire, seasfire, seasfire. It's going to the trash. It's probably just for my own sanity that I'm writing that, but I'm just misquoting Judith Butler saying something about precarity, the lives of precar-, you know, what lives are worth saving and who's death are worth mourning. So, okay, I'm done. Thank you, Janet. Thank you, Janet, so much. I hear you on all of those, and the, the sign, being in, dealing with issues and ideas in real time and multiple places, and it goes back to what we're talking about today around what's happening here, what's happening afar, and what's in the body around it. Thank you for sharing that. Tangi Akkar, I'm going to turn things over to you. Is your mic working? No, maybe, Swit, thank you. Yes. Tangi, welcome. It's great to have you. Thank you. Thank you for your words and inspiring and this energy you have to put in. I am Tangi Akkar, and I'm the Deputy Director of La Maison de la Dance and Director of Development of La Bienal de la Dance. It's my first trip overseas since 17, when I, 21, yeah, 21. It was, I spent four years in Chicago. I had the pleasure to live in that extraordinary city. I felt in love with the city and I had the position of cultural attaché. So, I know a bit about the United States, especially the Midwest, that no one from France knows. So, that was an exciting experience for me to make this extraordinary territory. And I think it's interesting because it gives you another story of the United States also. So, maybe I have later some time to tell about some experience and thought through my work in Chicago, but from now I will be more serious. And I took some notes that I wrote to this night during the night, I would say. So, I've been working in La Maison de la Dance and La Bienal de la Dance since 21. So, it's recent. And I arrived with Thiago Guedes, the new director of both institutions. La Maison de la Dance and Bienal de la Dance are two very distinct cultural organizations, but they have that specificity to have a common direction. And when Thiago applied, we had to present a project for the two organizations, thinking the complementarity, the common spaces between them in order to highlight a kind of unique model for dance, for creation, for artists and for the audience in Lyon and abroad. The principal missions of both institutions to be fast is to promote access for all to culture and especially dance, and to support and make visible the work of artists. More specifically, La Maison de la Dance programs a large diversity of dances and aesthetics from local to international. We do ballet, neoclassic, contemporary, very established or emerging artists, traditional of urban dance, but also cabaret or circus. We have a theater with 1,100 seats and one studio of 100 seats. And Bienal de la Dance, whose last edition just took place last September, is more about inviting a local audience, but also professional because it's also a professional platform to explore the actuality of dance at the international level. There was about 15 countries represented through the performances that we invited the last edition, and is much more involved in the new forms of creation, seeing that about 40% of our program, our creation and French premiere this year. At La Maison de la Dance, we program about 50 shows during a season for about 140 representation, which make about more than 100,000 tickets and spectators. At La Bienal, we presented last September 48 shows in Lyon, the Lyon metropolis, but also in the region, in 50 different venues, and we have a total of about 50,000 tickets. I mention all that because I think it's important also to know about practical question, and I wanted to mention the number of tickets, because contrary to received ID and assumption that I've heard sometime from the US side, box office is a very important and crucial thing in France too, and it's a lot of work and communication and work of outreach to get people and potential audience into our theater. So as an example, the financial equilibrium at La Maison de la Dance is based on 60% of our resources and 50% on box office. And we need also to raise money and in terms of fundraising, I would say that if I Maison de la Dance plus Bienal, we have to raise about 1.5 million euro of private funds to implement the project that we want to develop. Saying that, we receive of course a lot of support from our public partners, a national, local, not only financial, but I can't say that we have with most of them a pretty constant and constructive dialogue. Maison and Bienal, they have nine associated artists, three local, three national and three international. We have the mission to support the development of arts and creation through co-production, different kind of mentoring, especially for the local artists and residency program. We're talking yesterday about residencies and I think that we will increase the number of places for residency in France because in three years we'll have a new space very next to La Maison de la Dance, named Les Ateliers de la Dance, with a big creation theater of 400 seats, a studio with 120 seats, both totally equipped to finalize and create work, a big studio for research and workshop and an open air space on the rooftop to work on form of public space. So it will transform totally our mission and especially how we can have the artist all the time with us and to create, to dialogue with the community, the people, the artist, et cetera, et cetera. And we want, of course, to design that space for local, national, but also international artists. We developed also a lot of outreach in the community program yesterday, Elisa, when we were talking about the residency, it was difficult to find the exact word when we talk about mediation, action culturelle, education artistique et culturelle. I think I talked with Will yesterday and he said, yeah, it's with a outreach program and community engagement program. So and we do, we do it a lot and it's really, really part of our mission, like she is doing at Chayou and his team and many, many other theater. I would say that in this global environment, we work in constant dialogue between local and international, from local to international, from international to local. And in the same way, the different missions and activities that we are doing are very, very connected to different layers of collaboration. I would even say that our practices are immersed in collaboration. First, at the local level, the question of collaborating, which other theater with artists, with agencies, with a different cultural organization is not, I think it's not a possibility, it's a necessity, even an injunction from our public partners, founders, each at its own level of responsibility of competence, which responds to questions and issue that we all need to resolve if we want to work better and have a better future for art and culture in France in ecological, economic and also social level. So we've been asked to work, of course, on ecological issues and it's more and more important, like to calculate our one footprint, looking for instance, at issues of mobility, mobility of artists, mainly mobility of the audience, how do they come to our theater of professionals. We organize a lot, we are part of a lot of working group, do things together, how to decarbonize culture in France at the level of the city of the metropolis. We work a lot to organize what we call green tours, which means organized rational tour of performance. In order to raise you the travel, we will today never invite international project without having at least three, maybe four partners in France. We work a lot with Chayo discussing constantly about our interest in order to agree on the companies and the work that we'd like to invite. For the performing art sector, I think it's interesting also to say a few words about the Ministry of Culture. They put recently a kind of priority in their agenda that they call mieux produire, mieux diffuser, producing better and touring or disseminating better. You must hear limiting other production and encouraging touring to extend the life of performances and creation. Again, Will yesterday was pointing that he had to wait until 25, I think, to find the fifth venue of his last creation. I don't know if he will, maybe he left. Yes, it's what you say, right? Something like that. You have to wait for two years to have a chance to do something. It's about the same question. If we take a look on the numbers in France, I think it's also a very bad situation. There is a lot of companies, much more than here. We really have the problem of the average of number of representation per work. I don't remember, but it's very bad to have three, something like that. The Ministry of Culture really asked us to work much more actively on that crucial question. It's really about the future of dance and how we can preserve. It's also about ecological practice. To produce a piece, to have just three representation, it's totally a problem today. So, and of course, that means we are constantly working and calling and discussing with colleagues from France, from the region, from the city, to get more chance for the artist to tour as much as they can. It works pretty well. We have the chance to have, of course, as some of you know, a very structured and strong ecosystem, but it needs a lot of work because we are very vastly focused on our own structures, organization, work. And so I think we need to stay alive to oblige ourselves to always be in connection and in relation with other colleagues. We are also working in term of fostering exchange, increase the visibility of artworks to the professional sectors, and facilitate the dialogue between artists and presenters. This is why we do organize during the Biennale the Focus Dance. Some of you were there this year, a dance platform that we organize in partnership, still about partnership and collaboration with Onda, the Institut Français, and also in close relation with the different cultural services of the French Embassy in the world. And we have this year 300 presenters from many countries, I don't remember, but it's just to say the importance of this moment, also to engage collaboration in New York City, how many projects were burned in January in HAPA, International Collaboration. I'm sure there were a lot. And I was happy to read that the rebirth of the festival was about the Under the Radar, not only for Under the Radar, but I know that that kind of festival can give an impulse to bring people from abroad and engage dialogue. And I'm not sure, I don't know, it was from since the end of COVID-2 now, but I know it was pretty bad in New York. So I really hope that that kind of encounter will be very positive for all of you and all of us, actually. Collaboration is pretty strong also at the European level. And we have also the chance to develop a cooperation project, thanks to the European Union and through the Creative Europe Program to encourage cooperation with essential questions of innovation, solidarity, equity. We are part of a few program, a European program, and I have to say that it's an extraordinary way to think together and to have a moment and time to reflect about our practices from Serbia to France, from Norway to Portugal. Thinking now about extra European exchange, the question asked in this panel resonates a lot with another meeting that we organized during the Biennale, which title was Building Together, What Form of Cultural Cooperation to Co-Pris Social Change. So we do a lot of meeting like that and I think it's important, but it's not the only one. And this title has been transformed by the sentence, a very beautiful sentence from a group of artists and cultural workers that I read in the book named Reshape, name of a European project that aim to imagine new ways of translational exchange. And the name of this was building a dream of the generosity, solidarity shelter, rethinking transnational collaboration in a changing world. So this meeting was led by my different Melissa Ilic, she's an expert on international cultural cooperation. And this meeting started with this observation. I think it's good to recycle also meetings in order to have, I mean, it was very interesting. And so she started by observing a contradiction, which is in one hand that the practices in the art world are immersed in a collaboration defined by collaboration. International exchange are pretty much a very deeply present in our sector, sorry, but in the other end, collaborations are deeply influenced by neoliberal market logic and the majority of the models of exchange in art is still fostering over production, extraction or relation. I think also that the question of visibility, access to mobility to resources is dependent also on where the artists are based. So the main question where we discuss a lot about how to collaborate about across different contexts, considering the difference and how the context, the history, culture, social realities can define our practice as an impact is our in our practice and also to highlight the specificity, also the inequality in working conditions. So from, from this, we, I got some there was a lot of keyword that appeared to engage international exchange and the three most important world was care, solidarity and context. And I will have that this question of context is very important. If you want to work on collaboration and artistic exchange as a creator and cultural workers, I think this is our responsibility to understand and dig into the context in which artists are working to, to dev and develop their practice, especially if we want reciprocities. When we wrote the project for La Bienale de la Dance, we discussed a lot about how to engage ourselves in at the global and extra European level, considering that the Bienale is an international event. And as a response, we created a project named forum, the forum, a space for gathering at international level and level and focusing on the practice and not necessarily the product. It was also the idea to engage a relation of trust with curators from different parts of the world with whom we share the same values and on ecological aspects to know about the states of world's creation without having necessarily to travel constantly. So this program is co-constructed with five non-European curators from five different regions of the world, the United States. And we are very honored and happy and proud to have as the first curator Angela Matux here presents. So we had a lot of exchange, Zoom exchange this last month. So there is United States, Taiwan, a curator from Australia, from Brazil and from Mozambique. And each curator, we asked to each curator to initiate and accompany a local artistic project and gathering with five artists from their respective geographies. So we are not at the point we selected the artist and it's still very in process. And the following regular online and face-to-face meeting in the five continents and also a work of documentation, the results and the artistic project resulting from this forum will be presented during the Biennale 25. So it's a long-term process. And I wanted to highlight this example because I think it's important for organizations that are deeply rooted in international exchange to experiment new way of cooperation and maybe to ask this question of how we want to be engaged in the global society, especially from our very privileged position. To conclude for now about the question of responsibility of curator, I take also some small time of Philip. Our main responsibility, I think, is really to create environment, positive environment, to engage a dialogue between artists, between artists and professionals, between artists and the audience, between artists themselves. And I think this question of creating a positive environment, it's the main, the main question and the main most important thing to me. And I finished with this quote of Kudu Sonikeku, who was invited during this meeting that I mentioned in Lyon. And he said something I think is very relevant and important about international exchange and reciprocities. He said about inviting projects and artists from abroad. That it's not about giving opportunity but creating a space where communities can happen. And I really like this distinction about not to extract a project to give the opportunity to that project to be presented abroad. In another context like a gift that you would give to an artist but create a context where just things can happen. And I think it's beautiful. That was beautiful. Thank you Tangi. Where you where you ended on that reminded me of you know yesterday we're talking about it came up in the room artists in partnership with institutions. I think it was in the pedagogical conversation but I think that is very much as part of this panel to artists in partnership. How we're meeting the artists. One thing Tangi really before I turn things over to Rashid you mentioned the keywords that were coming up in your work. Was it care, context and solidarity. Perhaps we can expand upon that once we open it all the way to the full discussion. Rashid Orhamdan, we're going to continue I think with you with you are starting to already foreground I think so many really poignant approaches with your new role at Chayo. I wonder if you can continue to dive into those the ways that you are you talk about play. You talked about being in service too and you started to talk about hospitality. I know you prepared some notes but I'm looking forward to hearing a continuation of some of those thematics. So Rashid the floor is yours. Thank you. I suppose I have no time left and I even yeah I've been wondering if I still have Rashid time. No Ali. No yeah of course I've said things before. I might repeat myself a little bit but I will try to get some issue that start to rise up but yeah just a little bit to go back to Chayo a bit of a history and maybe to understand what I said before and what I why is this position of this theater that when you come to Chayo you don't come with your project you don't come as a person. You are facing 100 years of democratization of art and culture. This institution had been built for a world fair for a moment where people believed that scientific knowledge and artistic knowledge could be the base for common culture. That from the beginning the purpose of that structure was to gather the city was to gather different field of knowledge different actions. Then and after very important figures like Jean Villard, Fierman-Gémier, Seattle director really made revolution. You know Jean Villard created what we call in French National Popular, National Popular Seattle and after he created the Avignon Festival and this heritage of at that time popular I think the world today would be inclusion to democratize because what we the popular practices in the 20s are different from the 60s from the 80s because since then we receive all those multicultural knowledge. We are dealing with gender issue. We have integrated the revolution of digital world. Then what make popular and what federate is totally different today than before. But just to say that because leading Chayo means to try to federate all those fields and to bring culture where culture is not. The idea is not to make people come to culture it's to bring culture where there is no culture, sorry there is always culture everywhere, where there is no art certain art practices or where art practices and culture are damaged. And I want to take a precaution because often that could give the kind of vertical vision of culture which was and I totally agree with you Tanguy when you say many theater are doing what is the English world, education, but I think that what is important again referring to what I said before it's to not be vertical to make emerge everything which had been invisibilized and to not have a messianic approach of cultural life. I bring you the light. And then that's it. I just wanted to preside that because yeah when you think a programation in Chayo that's through this through this filter. And well I say it seems already an artwork on the scale of the city etc but that's really that's this heritage I was mentioning before. I need to go straight to international collaboration. Beyond the regular what I call the regular programation which is to invite project, international project, how you said now with this duty we have to make it in collaboration to not make fly people from all over the world alone. No we have to optimize economically and ecologically and to optimize economically. It is an ecological act then we walked through networks but then there is this regular activities but what we what I also try to share and maybe to share a bit what you say about giving a space at the end of your presentation Tanguy. Every month there is an invitation to a territory and we call that Chayo experience. We invite projects, calligraphy or the kind of project but during those Chayo experience which is a kind of mini festival, mini focus we try to share the scene, an ecosystem, a total environment. Then the next one will be about Algeria then we are going to have Algerian calligraphers but also press drawers, concert, debate, programmation of films, documentary, sharing practices, immaterial, UNESCO, Patrimonial from the Humanity Project with kind of music practices. Then what we try to do and a lot of workshops, a lot of initiative from association from Algeria or from the immigration of Algerian immigration and we try to have those moments of popular sharing practices and because I think it's really important to not only show an art piece but to try to bring a fragment of this ecosystem, a fragment of the environment where all those pieces are done. Then we are going to have one this season about Ronda. She's gone Dorote. She's as associated artist will be co-curating the thing but that's it. We work with local artists from Ronda but also all the collaboration that exists already between the country and that's the way to still maintain an international connection and every time when we are doing that the partners are different because sometimes you have some countries who have a cultural institute who could be partner or where there is a culture of fundraising sometimes no. Every time we have to invent a new economical model to make that's possible but by the fact how I said before you work with different partners you can you find different partners from different sectors in the countries and then Algeria we are going to sorry we are going to have one about the transatlantic relation with Vila Bertin in December but yeah that's an approach and which I think it's a lot of many of you are professional traveling you know how looks like countries when we don't have those international cooperation I suppose I mean I worked in Vietnam I worked in Russia I mean you know how sometimes things could be much more tense when there is this absence of intercultural practices and and that's why we all have we all have to think how to reduce our carbon footprint etc there is many diverse approach it but I think that we should never consider the cultural object as a manufacturer object the value of a cultural object traveling is not the new Nike shoes like there is and it's not a way to say oh we are artists we don't have we should not consider all those ecological issue we are considering it in a transition project but we should assume that's maybe we still have to to make travel a cultural object because they create a certain tolerance all over the world a certain knowledge all over the world and that's it just to refer to the carbon print the same way we make travel cars etc is sorry it's naive it's to to have an economical approach and not a political approach and that's maybe where we will end up I will go to that because United States have a lot of money it's probably one of the country the economy of the United States is one of the stronger one and often we hear that there is a problem in the country to support art comparing countries who have not so strong it economical but I would go that's the end and then that's it and also what we try to do again just to give an example of how to say nourishing nourished cooperation we develop this program of holiday camp artistic holiday camp because we have to focus on supporting the artist but I think that if we don't create citizen who have a taste for art or test for cultural practices then it's a kind of empty basket return like because we have to iterate the strengths for creation but to also construct the people that will appreciate and enjoy the the creation then we have different programs like those are holiday camp inspired by what Alvin alle Foundation have done during many years and during two weeks the kids especially vulnerable kids that we are working with have dance movement practices we try to also mix sports and dance practices because we know the potential that sports practice the potential that sports have to federate the usness and they just realized that through sport they can start to reach all the post yeah they can approach art dances everywhere dances in fashion dances in sport dances in cinema dances on the social network dances on the English well-being cinema research in the music industry and all those domain are doors to reach dance but not only in a mainstream culture and that's after the the work we have to do but I would I would totally assume to use sometimes those those very popular key to introduce dance we are doing I have a very I have an associate artist he's a rap singer you can see his movie in Netflix he's a really nice and interesting person really well-known Kerry James in France and the way he has to federate people when he's doing something he opened the door to audience that you never see in our institutions because often I'm going in Seattle and see we did a show and we met come like 20 people from the neighborhood and they are yeah but it's like if it's complex and if it's we always have to be in a very small scale it is a way it is important but I also do believe that we have to always try to use the tool that allow us to act in a very wide-scale often yeah I like because sometimes people from different queer community not it's not but I like to remember that when David Bowie did Ziggy starters that was a world phenomenon it was not only something for that's people reduced to my my community minority then then that's it I think it's sort of interesting to try to think in terms of scale and which domain can open the door to a wide art practice neighborhood yeah to a little bit provocative I think that we are facing the market world the market world how it works so far I really think that we are facing a wall co-producing and just presenting the show I think that the end of this model I am really really ready to speak about it but it's what's going on in France at the moment when an artist have no job the only as a dancer the only way he has to go on is to create his own company and and and and that's saturate the network and the infrastructure are not enough and if we don't create the possibility for choreographic art to exist in a wider scale in different domain if we don't use all the potential of this discipline and if we just focus on the economical aspect of this model which was relevant for a moment but now this model doesn't work and we are just fitting those and and then that's those perverse that's those perverse reaction that's some models had so far then I think the international collaboration we could have are to this also kind of cooperation the one I was mentioning before with for Stanley Nicola about his place the this this one with those holiday cams that we are having already in a broad in republic democratic of Congo and then yeah just this and about ecology the chain of collaboration is very important and you you remember it because at the moment it's what is hard because it's very easy to say new produce from your diffuser in fact it's made to produce better to come if you say to to talk to a lot to disseminate better actually the thing which is behind it means then you have to cut the head because it what it means it means to give more money to certain people and to show longer certain people doing that I mean you don't have to be very good in mathematics it means you have to just to limit the people you want to support then it means and that's why I I say this model if or will create a kind of diet for the profession or will just create poverty for a lot a lot of our artists then our mission is again to find all the alternative we can create and our structures again yours everything you're doing you say is okay three names national dance we are working as well it's to emphasize the practice is the choreographic practices to absorb to still absorb and to find the possibility thank you and just one look yeah because it's true because he's not here because none of it yeah you mentioned Van Thief and Arpelle and it's true that's we need those partners and in a long-term process if and that's where I wanted to come because I think that's the the support should be political first not economical but political first because there is money in different countries but if there is not the political choice to put it on promoting art and to support art in a long term we are going nowhere and that's where I wanted to go speaking about the economy of United States but it's true that's when for example Van Thief and Arpelle and you say that Janet really really bring a support because they believe they believe in this society with art practices with fine art and and look at where for that I don't know where I'm going with this but I'm I end up with that I think that might be the theme of this panel is to maybe again echo some of the themes that have happened the last two days and raise a lot of questions and opportunity around it we're not obviously going to get all the answers in this panel and I appreciate the expansiveness of each of your comments I'm mindful of our respondent but I want to give both of you a chance to respond to was there something that either one of you said that you want to jump in on before I jump in with a different question because I could go a lot of directions here can I ask these two gentlemen do you have problem bringing in audiences I know you talked about a lot of outreach and all of that because you know also the training the audience at a young age to come in like we have a problem of arts education in this country funding a you know art is the first thing to go highways and hospitals are always more important the defense budget is more important so art is suffering so you have children coming out of school by the time we reach them in our theater they are already adults maybe that's too late and then you wonder why do we have a population that cannot have nuanced thinking or critical thinking or or have the patience to look at something and the audience for the the kind of art form that we do them the more I know you say let's do also all kinds of all kinds of work and we do various kinds of work before the the the experimental work the lack of a better word that audience is I think it's small it's relatively small right I have peers in my in this room it's relatively small and then I have people in my organization that say no one wants to pay for experimental work and then you look at bam next sorry sorry bam that there are next-wave festival that's where I got my art education from when I first moved to New York it's so beloved and made Brooklyn what it is and now we're performing tonight at the height of it there were what 30 shows at the next-wave festival this fall there are six or seven and there are three theaters so like what what is going on what is going on and under the radar you mentioned right in that okay I'm making a lot of enemies today but the article that announced the the season for the public theater and the very beginning of the article is we're producing the most expensive musical ever with Alicia Keys and then it's also out and you know and extended already before even opened and then at the very last paragraph is oh by the way we can we canceling under the radar oh yes I have a question when we are talking about degree decrease of the number of shows for instance is it first link to economical even if it I know it's connected of course is it about because of the audience that you cannot have in Europe theaters or well it's simply financial reasons well for us we we don't do that many shows we I actually only have 15 weeks out of the year for my department and then the rest of the weeks we rent the theater out to independent producers who wants to do their own work or to universities and then if we're lucky we get a Broadway show in there that pays us you know commercial rates so but we have we work very hard to bring in the audience we also partner with you know multiple universities around the city we also work with James Baldwin school and we have a dance program in there but I'm I can't answer for BAM I know it has to do with budget but perhaps to pull back a little bit just again around looking at curatorial ecologies and looking at you know the thread of you're starting to talk about you know again the relationship to audience but also who we're serving you brother the notion of service who we serving how we serving the audience how are you serving the artists from earlier today and yesterday how are institutions adapting to be in better service to I want to open up to Ali but before I do is there a comment around that notion of how we serving our artists how the institution is changing and adapting to be in service how we meeting them is anything I'm mindful this is the final discussion so I want to end us on a moment of maybe abundance and possibility if that's possible are the comments around those notions no but I think it's interesting about the notion of audience because we have many many a question about that but we we need to remind that Rashid told since Malraux we have a huge history with culture and and and we work on public mission and that make a big difference the question of audience connected to that question of democratization of culture as a tool to emancipate any citizen is at the center of where we are now it's difficult to especially for with the young people and young conditions and we have to develop a lot of things to to to reach this new generation of of spectators but I think that years after years with also developed probably to to to speak very concretely special skills when probably you have in your theater a big team to fundraise we have probably big team in what we call public relation and people who are really doing the job and that thank you for so that's also that it's it's really really difficult we what I don't know what yesterday I was saying that to someone the first the thing that I've learned the most after my experience in Chicago is that France and the US are incredibly different and it's probably more different than France and Cambodia or France and Brazil and really and and that question is a typical example of we could discuss for many many hours about to this contract our story and to know why are we there today so thank you for bringing up those differences I'm mindful Ali Rosa Salas is here as our respondent thank you for being here Abrams Art Center do you have some kind of you know coming to a close some words there that are in your mind from today's conversation and let's get you a mic to thank you good afternoon oh thank you so much for having me I've been thinking Janet a lot about what you're saying just about what's happening right now in Gaza it's it's not something I I can't not speak about especially in relationship to the to the subject matter of this conversation so thank you for amplifying that it's and Lauren too it's it's impossible to not think about and it's made me return to a question that I've just been that's been in the tumbler cycle of my brain I think since I've started this curator work is around institutionality and the the fact that institutions are people and I think it perhaps the the more one ascends in their professional trajectory in some ways it feels like the word dehumanizing because you become more like a building and and that's like a person and I and I and I do but I I always try to hold to the fact that institutions are people and people have subjectivities right and and and so subjectivities define are defined by lived experience which shape values and then it because people make up institutions they're making decisions that are values driven and distributing resources and making decisions based on those values right and so I and so what one of the many things that keeps me up at night is is is how this conversation around values and subjectivity relates to curatorial practice and and my deep dissatisfaction with I think the depersonalization of the curator in the sense of their the reason why curators are interested in this work is because of their point of view that is deeply political and is deeply context driven and is rooted in time and place and identity and all the things that we need to be talking about right and so and so blah blah blah preamble brings me to thinking about in this particular moment I think the art art form letter was brought up we live in a culture of statements and I'm thinking a lot about the role of cultural institutions in this particular moment I mean always I mean that's why angel to your point why I do this work is really deeply believe that arts and culture shifts the paradigm the capacity to think creatively is is what will save us but I but I think about integrity right as it relates to cure to a practice as it relates to values as it relates to subjectivity especially in a time like this like what is the role of cultural institutions in this really historic moment that we're all facing in horror if you have a brain and a heart and how does integrity and curatorial practice or factor in like how is that word sort of sitting with each of you as we navigate this moment and the and the future of what it is that we're endeavoring to do in this in this work so that's my question thank you so much for entertaining it thank you this one want to take that on terms of she thank you yeah if I understand I hope I was clear like I think that's all the you speak about integrity and I heard empathy work at the moment and maybe referring to what we are trying to say from before with this world of certain service it is it is through this lens to to be sure that's our function is enough well informed to have enough empathy for all the problematic that the diversity we are having confront us complex word to say it but that's that's what lead us as a curator as a programmer I don't like curator because it gives the feeling that's the active position but I really see myself as a person who gives space and hospitality in term of giving space not hospitality in term of we are going to where we see the audience the artist you know to be sure that's for example we create a use nefs console to be sure that they are probably then they come they have the power to we give they will have the budget they can propose manifestation to gather people and we try to work with them when we work with the community of voguing with okay then what could be the next step for the the ballroom but it's it's it then it's more by giving spaces and to be sure that's to to to try because how I said before the strengths to repeat models is always here and sometimes it's totally unconscious but that's I would say that's what I'm trying to have every day when I'm receiving a proposal when I'm speaking with someone I'm I'm just trying to understand deeply the project and to to make the effort to find the resources to find the the places of expression of all those different projects and that's why I said before the expression of this project could be to go to knock to what we call the Agence Française the developed development France agency to help to build a school because they think that the priorities to build a school it is to work with people from minister of education because they decide recently to to have 30 minute practices every day in the school then which then dialoguing with a teenager to see if we can make a tutorial a video tutorial where those people with artists and then we try to I don't know just to emphasize the artistic and sometimes it is just by receiving someone for a proposal on stage and to keep and I don't know if that's answering the question but I would say that's that's what is the thing that lead Shaiyoh every day Janet did you have a response as well Allie thank you for saying that institutions are people also and that we have values a very dear old friend of my who passed away in 2020 during the pandemic she was 90 years old we asked her she's one of my favorite people in the world we asked her so how do you teach young children morals and she said you don't you teach them integrity you show them integrity you instill that in them so integrity is so central and I also like to think of institutions as related to people not just that they are run by people but that in an institution can also embody values that but it starts with the individual and it's then the family then the village then that's Confucius then the city then then but you have to take care of this part first sometimes I don't know how to move because I cannot represent because my thoughts may not represent the the the the organizations and and then I have to step back and be humble and think okay what who am I harming in thinking these thoughts but right now this moment I am I don't know we have not discussed this moment within the organization just privately and I'm very very troubled by that by this country I am kind of ashamed at this moment of this country and other Western countries too but yes I don't know if that answers a question at all I was I was listening to a talk that that Fred Moten was giving and he was speaking so beautifully to the complexity speaking specifically around statements and institutions are making statements on what's happening in the world and he was like I signed the art form letter but I just I don't want anyone to speak about my behalf you know like I also and I really valued how he was able to hold the complexity of what it means to be a person you know and and the contradictions that we all embody and inhabit from moment to moment and I think in yeah I just appreciate your your honesty in in sort of wrestling and not necessarily being yeah being in that sort of curatorial like leadership and being someone to have to have a vision in moments that are so emotionally and psychically charged I think that we just all have to be more honest about about the complexity and about that and about the contradictions and multiplicities that we all inhabit so thank you thank you for that Ali I'm looking at no Ami because I know we're at time I know Rashid has a production schedule at BAM but I just want to echo the encourage the honesty and encourage the in general the generosity the curiosity the transparency the new models that were hinted at today no Ami I'm gonna pass it over to you in terms of time to guide us around the further questions or if we need to close I I want to thank the four of you Angela for yes steering the conversation in such yes beautiful rich ways and also to the three of you for your thoughts provocations so we're gonna just pause here because Rashid has to go thank you so much Rashid I hope we we're all going to see the performance tonight or tomorrow at BAM and then I don't know if you want to stay here as we take a moment to wrap up together or if you you know it's also a way perhaps to open for questions and yes I can also start by offering a few thoughts we also had a little statement from Philip I was wondering if maybe we can just I would just read a few sentences put these in the room Philip is bringing to attention how fraught this global moment is and yet wants to call for greater international exchange why it matters maybe especially at this at this time and I'll just read you the last part perhaps saying hope lies in new models emerging in longer deeper residencies in multiple modes of new digital exchange and collaborative and this diversified curation systems in local global exchange rooted in the specifics of distinct localities in ecologically minded reinvention of touring in new global alliances and shared research systems building greater trust between artists and curators audiences and organizations founders and institutions and between diverse global partners will help point the way forward finding new ways to sustain the power of the collective live art experience is the essential work of our time and so I want to say I want to thank everyone you know the panelists but everyone in the audience also to have been willing to engage you know in this experiment I would say I know we've covered I mean or it feels like we've branched out in so many areas and yeah I feel very grateful for the kind of time and labor to engage in the different works you know that you do you know hearing from perspectives from curators and dancers and archivist and and and you know makers it feels very valuable at this time now just maybe to go back to you know this idea for reciprocity which you know as I mentioned yesterday in opening you know just as I've been thinking about it I find there is striking in this idea that you know it's it is a kind of moving back and forth right it is it is a there's a there's a practice to it it seems to me right it never can be just a given but it's something that we have to revisit and and sustain over time and surely time has been a word that recurred for the last two days right yesterday was very present in regard to the residents residencies but also about pedagogy right to be reminded that yeah dance dancers are maybe not just available as you know no way suggested and also just reminded us so this idea of creating partnerships or relations right over time with dancers and but but also I think across institutions and borders is yeah very meaningful and so yes I wonder if we have thoughts or questions it's you know it's not easy to but maybe just just to say time and and and and bring back the rotes you know from this morning then the the gathering of the dispersed right the gathering of the dispersed as as as a kind of collective practice right that I feel like many of you are doing already and you know the respective practices I yeah it feels like a beautiful yes and actually quite potent way of thinking of the work yeah questions I wanted to share a story stemming from what Rashiduramdan shared about the history of Shao I just completed a long research project around that era in France which at which time my grandfather was the equivalent of the minister of culture and he was actually responsible for building the padded Shao as we know it today and the year it opened was 1937 which obviously was two years before the Second World War broke it was one year after France passed the law for the conger payet giving vacation for all workers in France and the project of Shao was very much coming out of this political mindset it was a point it was a point in France at which the political body the the largest political body in France headed by the president and the and the assembly the Assembly National really believed that democracy could only happen through the arts and through arts education and through culture and through the sharing of culture what's important to note also as we stand all here today is that in 1938 the year after Shao opened a year before the war broke France introduced Lafa which is the reason that there is a cultural ambassador in New York and anywhere in the world this is the body the institutional body that created cultural diplomacy in France and so as we you know stand in this historical moment and it's all these global crises I think to be reminded of you know that utopian government maybe you know like there it's distract detractors called it utopian because of course the war happened nonetheless but to note that you know that that's a that's a political project arts education and and bridging these worlds and creating spaces where arts can be disseminated for all is a political project amidst the global crisis that we're facing thank you thank you all for that wonderful panel and Ali for the response and I just also want to thank you know me for bringing us together I don't know if we've had that fan really and thinking about that work and and the curating ecologies I thought I'd just throw something in there which I started to wonder like can you curate an ecology and what happens when we try to curate ecologies and then we have like Central Park right outside which is such a curated ecology and we've done so much destruction trying to curate ecologies rather than trying to attend to the ways in which they thrive and they live and I and and just to the to the comment then about institutions being people made me think of one of my favorite quotes from Wilford beyond psychoanalysts because I often thought like institutions are people like somehow now being an institution running institution that doesn't feel that's like still hurts to say that so I started to turn to this quote where beyond says the problem with all institutions is that they are dead but the people inside them are not and there's something about that that feels just in this room to say that like like constantly looking for what is alive in these like things that we inherit these institutions we inherit not to lambast institutions but to say we're always in some ways working against the forms we've inherited that that makes me wonder like you know when we're curating are we curating towards as a conversation I've had with no Emmys why maybe just a full circle want to thank you is like what would it be to curate towards something other than the performance than the event and so I just enter that as a sort of open ended question into the space. I know I just want to say thank you so much and how moving it is to be in the room with you all and the question of ecology reminded me of this great thinker French thinker when asked the question what should we do you know after like an hour long podcast about the state of the ecology and the planet and he said very seriously people should dance and people should sing and I think that there's this level of empathy that happens when we're connected to oneself to others and to the world around us and just seeing Emmanuel do her gesture earlier today. I'll keep it in this body that is also the archive of having seen so much work over the years and being this living library and the impact that we all had on each other's life that will never be able we'll never or I will never be able to put words to it because it's this kind of transmission even as audience member and so I just wanted to remind myself and maybe others also just of the importance of small gestures in the context of the complexity of our world so thank you. I'll want to thank everybody knowing me and I feel Albertine and stuff amazing and this amazing community of creators thinkers great sense of solidarity I just want to bring it back to the incredible wonderful comment and enlightened reminder to us about what it means what arts do for cohesion for democracy and especially relevant to us in New York in an American system where as Janet and many others pointed out how much we benefit from European support and it's bringing productions that have been created with European taxpayers money and European state support and what do we do to disseminate our own work at what prices what kind of access we create for our audiences where where American taxpayers also support the system of tax exempt institutions however very few people percentage wise percentage wise benefits from access and attending those institutions as Janet reminded me I also remember the times when it for seven dollars I could go and see peanut boughs at bomb in the nineties and check out the prices now for any international production that come to bomb and many other institutions and how little access actually people have for us presenters and I'm one of the presenters around PS 21 upstate New York it has direct relevance because we do not cultivate our audiences we don't through this kind of systems of exclusion of economic exclusion we don't cultivate our audiences so it's just maybe an appeal to solidarity to pay attention to this that we have to really also as individuals make an effort to work for our institutions and encourage our institutions not only to disseminate the work through accessible pricing but also more importantly reach out to communities very wide communities and make a special effort to engage those communities in residences and participatory work and also in in attending those institutions and lastly the generosity of French embassy and Villa Albertine also why not guys joining us in this effort of actually requesting that the prices for the productions that you so generously fund are also accessible to the widest populations in this city and elsewhere so thank you so much everybody again good afternoon so I'm here at the beginning and at the end and for those of you that I didn't meet yesterday I'm Judy throws director acting director of Villa Albertine pleasure to see you again I'd like to thank you all for attending these two days of exchanges we hope you found this event to be both informative and enjoyable of course I'd particularly like to thank our speakers our moderators and noemi for leading your discussions so effectively and because the day is not quite finished and because we have a few more announcements to make we'd like to invite you all to celebrate in the next room with a glass of champagne thank you