 Would you like to start? I believe everybody knows me, right? At least in this room. So thank you, Minister Tang. So we start with a few questions or a few topics that you would like to probably elaborate more. While the COVID-19 pandemic goes through recurring waves, there is another pandemic magnified by the social platforms called infodemic that seems to spread as fast and with equal uncertain consequences. And how can the technology and associated innovation counter it? And is there a digital vaccine under development? Yes, several. So I believe that we usually realize on two things and both are in conjunction with civil society. And the first strategy is called humor over rumor using the power of humor, which is even more viral than outrage to counter the rumors. And also notice and public notice, which is a little bit like quarantine, that makes sure that we contact trace the whereabouts, the lineage of a piece of disinformation and then make public about it. When people are about to share it, they can see that it's actually a information manipulation. So in the later strategy, one example would be a couple of months before our presidential election. So at the around the end of 2019, around the same time as the coronavirus first appeared, there was an idea that said that the people in Hong Kong, the young protesters, were murdering the police and get paid $20 million and a quote. And then, of course, that's not true, but it's making the rounds in Taiwan because we partner with the voluntary fact checking groups such as the co-facts project from the G zero, V of zero community so that people can't long press any message on the line closed chat room to kind of report spam or scam or disinformation. So we know at any given time which scams or spams or disinformation are getting viral, so to speak. So at that time, we understand it has a maybe R value of three, meaning on average, each person spread it to three other person, which will then spread it. And then the contact tracers get to work and then to look at the picture. And the picture that's associated with that caption was actually a Reuters photo, but it only depicts a young protestor. If you look at the original caption, it only says there are young protesters in Hong Kong, sorry. So somebody mutated the spike protein to overstretch the metaphor. And then, of course, then the contact tracers fact-check that and trace it back to the Weibo account of the Zhong Yang Zhen Fa Wei Zhang An Jian, the Zhang An Sword or the central political and law unit of the People's Refugee China regime Weibo account. And so they discovered that that's when this original mutation happened. And it's then registered into the international fact-checking network so that on Facebook and other social media when anyone want to share this story, because we don't take anything down. We don't do takedowns. But there's a kind of mandatory label that says this message, this caption that you just shared is proudly sponsored by the Chinese Communist Party or something like that as discovered by the contact tracing work of the TFCC. And so I believe this small anecdote shows that just as we counter the pandemic with no lockdown, we counter the infodemic with no takedown because takedown when done incorrectly, I think it amplifies the polarization and the state. For the state, there is no correct takedown, right? So we should enable the people's immunity by exposing people to kind of the mRNA strands package in fact-checking. I think I've already overstretched the metaphor, sorry. I think that's the basic idea. Thank you. The second topic is that the COVID-19, and I know this is particularly dear to you, the COVID-19 has had a profound impact on the Gen Z and it is setting the stage for the young youth to interact with the healthcare system among other systems. Are there digital technologies helping them in this aspect on a global scale and in Taiwan? What after the F1922, is there a plan for a digital vaccination passport? If yes, how will it look like and how would it be authenticated and recognized globally? Well, it will look exactly like the European Union DCC, which you're probably already familiar with. So we looked around and chose the standard that is open and that is friendly for non-EU members to also adopt. And so the EU DCC implementation is already done. The only thing that's preventing us from rolling it out generally is, as you mentioned, this kind of mutual polylateral agreements to certify each other's digital signatures. I believe that's still in the works, but Commander Chen Shizhong of CECC have said publicly that it will roll out by the end of the year, which is only four weeks away or something. So we'll see. And we designed it so that it doesn't require any single app and that's part of the digital inclusion that you kind of alluded to. So if someone doesn't have a smartphone, they can use a tablet or a desktop on their public library or anything really to register on that website and just screenshot or print that QR code. And it's as good as a what we call yellow card, the vaccination card, because currently to do international traveling, you have to actually go to a clinic or hospital dedicated to print such international vaccine card, which is not very inclusion friendly for people who are in the more rural areas and so on. But we're designed so that any laptop with a printer can print internationally recognized card with a UDCC compatible QR code on it. And the API is open so that, for example, when we roll out the contact tracing SMS based QR code, we get two million vendors printing their own QR codes. A lot of it was with the help of FamilyPort and the I-Born from FamilyMarch and 7-Eleven respectively, right? So you can actually use their kiosk, enter your phone number and some contact details, and then using their printer to print out any number of those QR codes prettily laid out for other people to scan. And many people did do that. So we're opening up the API so any major convenience store chains or really anyone who want to be a distribution center for the yellow card, the vaccination card can sign up to do so. People are increasingly living out their lives in the digital space, which governments cannot fully control. What are the government's options to contain the power of the big tech companies, including their power of censorship, while preserving the constitutional rights, and at the same time, pursuing the national priorities? Yeah, well that's a seminar topic, we can't spend three entire days on this topic, and I've got about 30 minutes, but anyway, I'll be very brief. I think that the main challenge to democratic polities, especially during the pandemic when we have to do things like contact tracing, is that it seems like an impossible trade-off, where you either aggregate all the data to the state, which creates its own problems, or you aggregate data to the large private companies, which creates even more problems, and there seems to be no kind of winning path from this. But in Taiwan, the one I do as a miss, I just alluded to, was neither a state aggregation solution, it's not gov tech, but it's also not a private sector tech, it's literally created by the very civil society who care about privacy themselves. The Gov Zero community with around 10,000 active participants designing all those different solutions, looking at all those different international solutions for contact tracing, finally settled down what we call multiparty computation, meaning that the state must not aggregate your check-in SMS. So when you scan the QR code and send it to 1922, it doesn't go to the state, it's just stored temporarily on your telecom carrier, and the carrier just rotates it out, it's like a post-it note that gets removed and shred after 28 days, exactly like the paper-based shredding, except of course it's done automatically by the telecom operators. Now, the telecom operators doesn't know which venue these 15 digits correspond to. As I mentioned, only the venue owner and the trade van company, which maintain this database, know the mapping type of a trade van, doesn't know your checking records. So it's like puzzle pieces, right? Out of those six or seven different puzzle pieces, you have to piece everything together in order to reverse engineer the whereabouts of any given person, but all of them have signed contractual obligation that only mandated contact tracers can actually look at those different pieces of data together, and they must leave a reverse auditable record. So on the website sms.192.gov.tw, if you type in your phone number and receive SMS and authenticate yourself, you actually get a full downloadable print of all the 28 days window of contact tracers looking at your messages. So it's like reverse accountability, exactly like if you use a national health car, you can on the NHI Express app look at which clinics and pharmacies have accessed your health data in the past. And so that's basically ensure mutual accountability and even for wiretapping agencies and like the investigative unit and so on, who initially filed a search warrant, one of them filed a search warrant which was denied by a judge that wanted to use the SMS records. We very quickly issued an interpretation saying the SMS, each of those SMS-aged characters words that this is reserved for pandemic control use only and therefore it's deleted after 28 days unlike the wiretap SMS which is deleted after six months and this is sent not to anyone really, whereas the SMS regular is sent to someone you know and so therefore these are different things and if the telecoms do not hand over data to the wiretappers, that's entirely legal. So we issued that interpretation not because we're nice, although we are nice, but because the original inventors was not government technologists, the initial inventors from the civil society are ready to say that the government has abused their initial design unless we make such interpretations. So having social sector-owned public spaces in the digital realm I think is the way out from this kind of forced dilemma between aggregation between the big tech and the big state. Thank you, thank you and very brilliant explanation. As we progress towards hybrid models of living we will see more things done obviously remotely, working from Omis effect, shopping online has grown tremendously recently, education online is implemented as a new way of learning, also the political systems are moving towards more participated processes with generic or specific digital platforms that give the possibility to form and organize large crowds. In some countries, like in Italy, I am personally doing it, we already see some early experiments of direct participation through digital boards. I know that digital democracy is a big topic for you, I see some of your things on YouTube and I know that you are going to join a workshop in the US summit for democracy. What are the implications, the limits of the digital democracy and what are the implications of cyber security on it? Well the limits basically are bandwidth and latency, there's like networking one-on-one, but to extend that metaphor we can talk about the bandwidth and latency of democratic institutions. For example, representative democracy with legislators being voted in every four years, the latency is four years and the bandwidth is very small, like each person only about three bits of information when it's one choice out of eight parties for example, three bits of information every four years and that used to be a high bandwidth decision-making method when all we had was stone tools or paper, but nowadays with digital we can improve the bandwidth so that it's not just about voting in the legislators, but whenever the legislators want to think about something that's emergent that the legislators themselves and their team do not have first-hand experience of they can what we call crowdsource, that is to say ask non-specific people on the internet about what they feel. Now of course back in 2014 when we occupied the parliament and did some of those early research many career public service were afraid of this kind of digital consultation and with good reason because they think that it will only lead to polarization, hatred or you know the kind of discrimination, vengefulness that you see online and then my main message was that that was because they were using or misusing Facebook and other digital equivalent of no town halls but nightclubs to do their deliberations so the same sort of citizens you need to design the digital equivalent of town halls of public parks of university campuses so that people can act in a pro-social manner but if we don't design such spaces and use only say Facebook then it will be like us trying to hold a town hall like this conversation but in a smoke filled very loud private bouncer addictive drinks nightclub now I have nothing against nightclubs I mean the entertainment sector is has reopened inside well it's not a place that will designate a town hall meeting or deliberative democracy in so in 2016 when I became digital minister that's the year when we classified the like civil IOT and the joint platform or whatever all these as digital infrastructure and that's the first time that we call it ji chu jian shi previously infrastructure budget was only allocated to concrete things like literally think made of concrete but from that point onwards things made out of bits that enable the same sort of conversations that people can have on the concrete spaces town halls and canvases and so on are eligible for the public budget investment so to answer your question more directly I believe it's all about the willingness to invest in the digital commons when people invest in digital commons then the limits can be surpassed and innovated upon by the civic tech sector but if we misuse the entertainment sector or infotainment sector or whatever facebook now builds itself too then we're basically trying to repurpose it outside of its original purpose and it leaves essentially no room for a third party independent invention thank you then Taiwan has received praise for from a recent EU delegation visit on its efforts to fight disinformation as you were mentioning earlier and was even suggested to become a regional hub in this fight against disinformation please tell us about the government's efforts so far against this disinformation and what improvements could be made in the future and obviously I am referring not only to the disinformation coming from outside but also to the one generated locally which is also a lot okay yeah so not just about the Hong Kong protesters okay right I think what we're our main message to the to the delegates the the MEPs was that most of the work and preferably all of the work are done by the social sector by the independent journalists by the schools and institution for education during our presidential debate there's a lot of misinformation probably not from outside of Taiwan but internally but the school children like middle school children many of them participated in the public tv and some other new media organized a collaborative fact-checking of the presidential forum and debate so that many people typed in whatever the presidential candidate of three of them said during their public speeches and fact-check it against the the data sources and so on but it's not just a classroom exercise if they actually discover something that is out of the the norm that is actually counterfactual their contribution become immediately visible on live streams on public tv and things like that so this kind of media competence classes is what since 2019 we've replaced the old classes of media literacy because media literacy was in an age when it's radio and television right people mostly consume and you can think against critically but this critical thinking doesn't remix and transmit well because not everyone own a broadcasting channel but nowadays literally everyone owns a broadcasting channel at no marginal cost right at a fixed rate per month and so because of that the kids are now learning to remix the media to be part of the media and i believe this is the the true solution the true vaccine of the mind so that when they fact-check all three presidential candidate they become really immune to the biased or polarized or populist arguments from from any side because they've considered all the sides and taken their own view and also most importantly share it with the entire society so to double down on education both basic education and lifelong education i believe that's the long-term solution to the infodemic okay the EU has proposed the introduction of digital identity you were touching this topic earlier which will allow citizens residents and businesses in the EU to prove their identity and share documents in their wallet with a click upon providing for example the requestors age in Taiwan that's my experience this is done verbally every time we have to do something we have to speak with an operator telling our address our telephone number our date of birth and so is there a plan to to move towards a similar project as in the EU yes in Taiwan as you said your conversations with the private sector operators currently do not have a widely agreed upon digital certificate although there is the citizens digital certificates and one for foreigners too but a rollout has been slow and not many people even know that art there and pinging our cdc actually has a nfc chip so that you can actually use your smartphone and contact it and use it but not many people know that and so not many people have a habit of using it which of course makes the roll out even slower and so on but for public service we do use the national health insurance card where the NHIA allows a kind of wide list of government entities to register the use of NHI card with the NHIA and the NHIA will provide the authentication but not the medical records and not writing into the medical records area in Asia so purely as a authenticating device and the NHI express app which serves the same function by issuing the one-time pin codes and also a virtual QR code that you can show it to your camera to your clinician over the video conference and that counts as a swipe of an NHI that has grown exponentially during the two years of pandemic before the pandemic the NHIA express app has maybe 10% or so so similar to the cdc the citizen digital certificate not the center for disease control the digital certificates but nowadays I think it's over one-third I think it's approaching half of the population having downloaded the NHI express app people use it to register for vaccines for the quintuple stimulus vouchers and things like that and so I believe for public service we've not really solved that the issue altogether but at least close to half of the population now are getting into this norm of mutual accountability leaving a record of all the you know national health insurance card uses and so on and also use it to last year to dedicate the mask quota right internationally so that's many people's first entry into what we call data altruism and also to to receive a kind of NFT from the NHIA certifying that you have donated your mask quota internationally around seven million pieces of masks has been dedicated this way so NHIA express app leads our main way of interfacing with the population during the pandemic and we're expanding the use on more public services during the pandemic before because it has a norm that is trusted upon by the citizenry now the general purpose private sector reusable electronic it many people felt that first it's we should not rush to roll it out during the pandemic because as in worldwide during the pandemic people trust the things that exist before the pandemic and during the pandemic people do not want to have to redo the assessment of cybersecurity and privacy when it's used on a kind of case with urgency that essentially everyone has to use is essentially essential service right so the EID was postponed so that the legislature can consider more fully the implications of private sector using something like the norm of the national health care but without the national health care sensitive data of course purely as they authenticate and then once they pass the EID law we expect that it will also take care of the digital inclusion that is to say to mandate that the public service must be provided even for people who prefer that their EID doesn't have an E in it so just new ID right with a disabled chip or without a chip altogether but they must still receive the exactly the same essential service on the regulation level the mystery of interior already kind of promised that but many people felt just like the national health act and the passport act they need a law level guarantee that says the same thing so that's what we're working on right now thank you and Erie do you have any questions too well perhaps a belated reminder to everyone here that the minister speaks very quick and contains a lot of substance I've already slowed down so you should feel free to raise any subjects because in 30 seconds of my shift to another subject that's so you know if anyone has any questions please please do raise it I thank thank you minister and I'm if I can summarize what you were saying about fact checkers you are saying that the world out there people in their own media are using their power to fact check government and hold government to account right as that that's pretty much what you said I'm interested in the same happening in the private sector particularly the financial services sector it seems to me that banks and insurance companies are not up being up front with us they don't tell us what they're doing why they're doing it why they need it what they're going to do with it and so on and therefore we are stuck in a very stagnant system of banking and finance and so on in in Taiwan I think if fact checkers could have the same power of access to private sector companies there maybe things would change or maybe there would be more dynamic and more digital friendly and so on at the moment they're just kind of covering up why they're doing it because everybody does the same what do you think would you agree with me firstly and secondly what do you think people could do well a financial service with democratic participation transparency and accountability that's the main ask it's called credit union right I mean Taiwan does have credit unions you know right right which is and I think that the main challenge really as the term platform cooperativism I believe that's the more european take on this is essentially taking the same route the historical routes of a co-op of a fully participatory and accountable democratic institution but then building it with with code essentially because in Taiwan it is true that many credit unions and co-ops for that matter have difficulty retaining the younger talents that are more equipped with you know cryptography and other necessary skills that that can recreate the kind of social contract on the face to face setting but on a electronic or digital age so a lot of our work in the social innovation lab presidential hackers on and so on is just to get those two groups of social sectors the younger civic tech sector and the older community builders regional revitalizers community college people co-ops credit union people and so on to know each other and then build interesting work together and I think that provides a viable alternative a similar dynamic happened back in 2015 when I first kind of intern as a reverse mentor in the minister jacqueline size office physically the same offices I'm holding now and then we talk about uber and a lot of the most innovative idea came from the the mozilla foundation a social enterprise and also the local temple and churches which want to also work with the fleets locally in a way similar to uber but they lack the kind of technological know-how to build such solutions so when these two groups of people work together and we legalize the multipurpose taxis and so on as long as you don't undercut existing taxi meters you're free to to work with the local fleet and so on then it enabled the local temples and churches in a way that's similar to credit unions or co-ops and they also benefit and of course with a strong social sector support of course uber finally kind of relented and registered as q-taxi locally and played by the same rules those temples and churches do hello hi minister adry okay so uh i believe now it's the time for taiwan to gain exposure to gain connectivity with the world okay ever than before but uh in the post-pandemic situations people are hard to travel and hard to connect and i believe with your expertise we can think about crazy things that we can connect with the world so i would like to take your view your perspective on what other strategies perhaps a metaverse taiwan that we can issuing digital residency residency or even citizenship to foreigners who does not need to be here but with necessary requirement that they too can participate in the development of taiwan in the current time thank you i think it's called a gold card i mean we've got that so so the the main thing about gold card especially during the two years of pandemic is that anyone i think the science and technology gold card especially says that if you consider yourself have the potential to contribute to science or technology in taiwan then you're eligible for a gold card so basically it's anyone really working in related fields can if they identify with what taiwan is about then they can get the gold card even without ever having traveled to taiwan they can obtain it overseas and when they do so then it's a foreign one card and one of the four is the resident certificate so it makes the travel actually easy at no point do we bar gold card holders to travel to taiwan during the two years of pandemic so something like that i think already exists and there's a vibrant gold card community that uh literally look at the national government council's gold card website and said that it doesn't work so so they they forked that website into their own gold card website and then got merged back right as the official gold card website so if you look at the gold card website now it's very good but it's built by the gold card holders so basically they they pulled eight of zero right forking the government on the national development council and we need more spirits like that and many contributors may not be physically in taiwan when they did this contribution and they also contribute of course to the binary bilingual nation plan and many other plans as well that's right exactly yes yep uh maybe on the topic EU recently announced a global gateway which is in line with the green directive as well as a digitalization and maybe a couple of things back on the point that Giuseppe was asking about this information the EU parliament was very kind in saying that there's much to be learned from taiwan it could as a gold mine yes yes can you briefly summarize what you think taiwan can offer in this space yeah um so one of the the things that we can offer is that this social sector led way of innovating so it's not that other countries don't have uh civic technologists right we have g0v.it the italian gov0 right and and many others but essentially the latency is too long in many other democracies for a civic tech person to solve a local problem to that idea becoming a national wide policy it's like four years at least in latency but in taiwan it it happens regularly right the mask availability mob is like three days sms contact tracing three days the vaccination uh one-stop-shuffle vaccination uh appointment essentially just four weeks or something like that uh and then the presidential hackathon every year ensures that the top five teams of the social innovators receive the presidential promise that it will become policy with all the personnel regulation and budgetary support that it needs in the next fiscal year so essentially made in taiwan doesn't mean any particular product or service but rather a design a configuration of society that people can then take this process and this model and then remix with their local ingredients so what we're offering is essentially an open recipe uh to increase the bandwidth of democracy through what i call people public private partnership multifaceted as well as open society yeah exactly just like the the bubble tea right open recipe and uh open ingredients so you open the discussion by saying humor over rumor so we we noticed that on digital democracy you actually made bubble tea exactly literally bubble tea maybe you can share that with our audience a little bit that the bubble tea it's i have not brought it with me if you check out my my twitter account uh or facebook or our instagram account uh you see the making of bubble tea uh and from the source materials while i explained that bubble tea in taiwan which started mid 80s and got really popular in the 90s never was patented uh and so it's really open so uh the bubble part could be black or white up you can bought a milk part could be soy milk or whatever milk uh the tea part could be black tea green tea or or red tea uh and things like that and it's still it's it's boba right it's still a bubble tea and so uh explain the idea of open innovation using the newly minted bubble tea emoji i think it's just one year old we didn't used to uh to have this emoji but now many people are saying that it should be our national emblem or something but anyway so we just spread those emojis around saying it represents open innovation and the spirit of digital democracy because it brings joy and it's really quite humorous so so right check out the uh film which is i think probably sponsored by the check uh business chamber in taiwan so again multifaceted and back to openness exactly yes any other questions um hi thank you very much for the very interesting examples you gave also on like um public discourse and technical infrastructure that enables that also like to um increase bandwidth and reduce latency um i have a question i've also seen and heard another talk of you in a podcast where you introduced like the i think it's called polys system for structuring discourse and then also how to select or vote using quadratic voting and these processes and i'd be curious um to hear your take on how that might actually that infrastructure that has been created might actually also be used not just in the um public realm but also maybe inside organizations because that very much strikes me so organizations are basically still look like north korea from the design the way it's designed and on on the outside here in the public space it's very democratic and transparent i'd be curious to hear your take on how could that be utilized inside organizations yeah one of the the easiest cell uh has been slido now i use slido for most of my talk uh but for this particular one because we're now in a setting where we are legally uh musk less so so we don't have to use slido but otherwise when when we're in a place where nonverbal communication is difficult to meet or if it's hybrid and half of the participants are online to give everyone a kind of equal way to chime in and it's hard to to read the room and know what topic people are interested in and how many uh minutes should i spend on that particular topic but now i can see very easily by you nodding so i have not used slido right now but slido and for people who didn't see it before it's a very simple idea that everyone's phone can scan a QR code presented on a screen and then people can leave anonymous questions and comments and vote on each other's questions and comments and just like polis it has no reply button by default so it means that people can't really troll each other but rather if you see a question that you think it's it's bogus well the only way the only recourse is to raise an even better question and convince people sitting near you to vote for it right to to lobby essentially uh and so just like polis slido is real time it gives a a very engaged sense of conversation and uh in the many panels that i shared with private sector leaders and so on uh i think um i think the the chairperson uh the ceo uh jingqi of a major telecom uh because she was public about it i can quote her on it say that it did the main thing that uh she learned from me is that she can't hold the company town halls using the slido system so using video conference or a large town hall regardless uh the she can actually surface that the few questions that resonates within her company and so and commit pre-commit herself to answer always to the issues even difficult questions that has the highest number of votes so it gives back a sense of democratic control right if you can control uh in kind of crowdsourced way of the agenda of the conversation of course then it builds trust mutually because a leader pre-committing to answer difficult question that has the highest votes basically trust the citizens trust the constituents and the same for from the company leader to her employees hello adres it's so nice to meet you here my name is Diana and i was very surprised that we do not use slido today i know because we're in a most class environment yes but you know i was chatting in one of the guests here he told me he's very shy i said no worries otherwise you know allow us to use slido so you don't have to stand up and ask your question too bad now now they have to tell you the question so you can ask for them i'm just uh very curious because of the pandemic and you know a lot of serious patients like uh cancer and then you know some i know we we have some regulation and so doctors cannot visit you know there are some problems for the treatment for for the patients and they dare not to go to the hospitals so i'm just wondering whether the government is thinking about how to to to to review the current regulation and to enhance and to consider telemedicine to help our patients in taiwan yeah our new revise of the telemedicine regulation fortunately passed right before the pandemic hits so especially for people in the 14-day quarantine they benefit tremendously from the kind of kind of virtual national health card program i think when we encounter our real first wave and the only wave so far dismay the timely rollout of the n h i app express app backed telemedicine teleconsultation really helped a lot of people suddenly found themselves in quarantine and i believe our current telemedicine regulations and laws is is not so much about the laws and regulations themselves but rather about the adoption of the clinics it's just like the teleeducation we we have actually the tele education laws and regulations but it's not until dismay that many educational institutions actually try it out for the first time because last year they did not have any excuse i guess to digitally transform and also they they considered the tools the meeting tools and so on last year to be insufficient for their needs now of course with the rest of the world's beta tested such tools for for the last year when we finally roll out in may we see really good adoption and educators as well as the pharmacists and clinics and so on took just i think two or three weeks to adopt this new way of working together but nowadays of course we're back to zero covid cases so many of the educational and medical institutions are now rolling back some of their measures so i think it's it's natural for them to do that and we need to uh i told the national health care insurance administration to focus on the things that are actually providing a value for the clinicians themselves when done in a telemedicine situation for example in the rural areas in the indigenous nations in the offshore islands as well as in the places where there's plenty of 5g coverage in their community but not in a fiber optic connection and things like that and spend money on these places where it actually provides and not a nice to have but a must-have and then when we get the platform easy to use enough and convenient enough then we'll go back and talk to the hospital information systems in the hospital that are considering this at this moment nice to have thank you so much thank you and perhaps along the same line of health care we chatted earlier data yes in taiwan very rich very resourceful populations comprised of multi ethnicities what's the government thinking on is it just concerned that i mean it's not going to disclose individual data perhaps but what's the government's thinking on that yeah um so part of our national action plan on open governments is to maximize the value of data and and those ideas of high value data sets is actually i think a european idea that we just adopted but i think one of the main difference is that although our privacy protection prison data protection act was largely modeled on the eu1 before gdpr we have not made the kind of gdpr assumption that there is a fundamental trade-off between privacy on one side and usability on the other gdpr made that assumption because it was at a age at an era like before the zero knowledge proves on blockchains and many other mathematical inventions like homomorphic encryption was commercially available so on that particular year it's probably true that there was such a trade-off but recently if you check out my my instagram at digital minister i partner with the national center for high-speed computation to roll out a set of popular memes videos like the bubble scene and it pictures me kind of wearing a blindfold and operating on your health data without looking at it anyway it's supposed to to be a lighthearted introduction to the very difficult mathematical idea of homomorphic encryption i don't know the math either actually so but but the idea is very simple if i trust the national health care insurance the nhi the nhi trust a cloud provider like the nchc trust is not transitive right so if they hand out my personal data to nchc for computation it means that i trust them less because i don't trust this cert potse and in gdpr times it could be only a kind of trade-off decision in this particular configuration but with homomorphic encryption it is solved basically the nhi can encrypt my data and send it to the nchc which does all the computation it wants by operating on encrypted data so it knows nothing about what that contains and then after it does the computation it sends back the result which we then decrypt and get the results back so it decouples data access storage with data computation and there's many new inventions like these that we're now working actively with the nchc on and so i believe it's just like sustainability and development when i was a child these two words represents a trade-off right you either care more about environment or about economic development but now it is the same idea sustainable development and that's because we've innovated on new forms of energy new forms of circular economy and so on that can actually advance the development part without sacrificing the sustainability part and vice versa so i'm i'm really happy that we got this experimentation lab kind of with the latest privacy enhancing technologies and we're also happy to share with the the european counterparts now that they're also considering where does gdpr go after these new ideas that comes from the blockchain communities um there is the time for our last question because the minister tang is so we have time time for two questions so one is from our hi minister tang i'm a co-chair of the hr committee and i want to raise a question regarding the employment issue we understand that during the past two years due to a kov-19 the happy work and working from home has become the new model and i understand that you are also you also work from home most of the time so i just wonder whether i just want to stick your insight regarding what's your views regarding the future work model and you know for example because um currently even though most of the people have returned to the office but there are still some people who work from home and when you are work from home most of people think it's meaningless to keep the so-called attendance record and i just wonder what are your view in this regard and what what you view regarding whether our legal system should uh uh whether the uh the legal system should be updated to embrace the new work model yeah back in 2015 when i helped minister jack lindsay launched the first e-rollmaking project in in vtai one uh we worked on the teleworking regulations with the ministry of labor uh and so the chuxin jidoo and zaihai gongshan rending or whatever all these basic labor law kind of conceptual bridges to a teleworking environment has already been done so i think we're on firm regulation and legal ground here now of course the norm is another matter all together the the fact that we have such regulations doesn't mean that the company is considered normal to adopt teleworking so yes i'm a teleworking minister when i announced publicly that i'm only entering the captain building on mondays and thursdays when i entered the captain in 2016 i think some major media did a poll and i think only around 60 percent of people feel comfortable with this so i'm on kind of thin democratic ground here and and then i think the same media ask so what if any level of public servants could do this and i think the support level was just 30 40 percent or something is on even thinner democratic grounds so obviously the norm is not the same as the teleworking regulation with us in 2015 now fast forward to today of course i think most people consider that teleworking is a necessity now but it's a skill that almost have i think we have this norm here but whether to spend all this time in a teleworking community i think that depends on the nature of the work i spent two days a week in the cabinet office not because i have to but i consider that this is the kind of minimal amount required for me to build camaraderie and solidarity with my teammates and in the other days i'm not at home strictly speaking i'm touring around taiwan or touring around the world before the pandemic as it were but i can't work from from anywhere the taiwan high speed rails actually is one of my favorite home offices i could travel anywhere and i do like interviews and so on on the high speed rails thanks to the amazing 5g and 4g infrastructure along the lines and amazing noise canceling machine learning algorithms that allows me to to block all the beeps and what that is part of the high speed rails and so at least the sound quality would be really good at the video sometimes lacks but anyway that the point here is that if you're comfortable in the team with this part-time teleworking i think that is the hybrid solution that most people are most happy with and i don't really advocate for 100% teleworking when i work with silicon valley companies like social techs and opera and so on it's true that i don't live in palalto or cupitino and so on but in palalto for example every half a year we have a oh hands meeting and then my colleagues even send me uh fedex me kind of boxes of napa valley wine not very expensive not expensive at all actually but just so that we can maintain kind of the same camaraderie atmosphere right before we get to work or after we go to work we can drink and know the taste that the other party drinks from you know the other side of the world tastes the same or when they uh usually hang out after work to to the local Gordon Biasch and when the gb opens in in taiwan as gb's and now they insisted that i go there and telework so that we can enjoy the same atmosphere and so on so so this this non-verbal this convivial parts must be intentionally designed when you telework but you can't design that unless you have at least spent some quality time together okay uh yeah hi i'm thomas i'm workers gandy a domain and registrar right which you know um i did know that you like wine actually and there's a there's a european christmas market just next to here like maybe 10 minutes walk at shangti avenue until until sunday it's also supported by the european chamber so there's a there's an event there which is promoting european foods and european drinks as well because europe is very good for food right you've been limited so you know very well um my question now is uh there's a there's a growing digital divide for people who are foragers in taiwan and it's the same in every country what i mean with that is uh if you have a foreign id number for example or if you have a if you if you cannot use the website in chinese then you click on the english button and it just brings you to the company portal and says like hey okay uh this is all corporate information and there's no information or but even if you use chinese um i have this problematic and many of my friends as well i even have some friends who are entrepreneurs who applied for taiwanese citizenship because they are fed up living in taiwan since 30 years and they cannot actually naturalize everyone that's one solution the solution is to naturalize of course but uh but uh you know for example i have some entrepreneur friends who want to start a business they say they could get a small loan in taiwan which is very good rates in taiwan like three percent for maybe pay them off in 10 years uh but they cannot apply it because everyone asked them to go on the website um enter the id number and it's incompatible and they just that's already where they are blocked and uh even myself i ask my bank if i can invest invest in some structures etf i have a very good relationship with them i know they have vps and whatever they say oh you can do it be good for you then they set up everything and finally say oh we cannot but you can do it over the counter you know so you can come in person every time you want to buy and sell something so uh i don't want to do this so my question is what kind of solution you can see for for for giving more access to people who have forage and residents like i think there's even 700 000 migrant workers in taiwan right so that's a for for businesses actually a very good population but no matter who i talk with uh even with the private sector they don't really see the solutions because the system is always adapted towards residents right so yeah but do you think there could be a law or or some legislations who actually forces at least some specific sectors to be more inclusive for people to avoid digital divide well first of all for the record as a public servant since 2016 i don't drink alcoholic drinks anymore okay for the record and so now to your question um i think for the public service the the reason why for vaccination and many other like musk and whatever systems we've switched from using the kind of citizen digital certificate which really has a really slow rollout to the national health card is also because the national health care protects residents not just citizens and and because the is like a social security number right so if you don't think that this number is secure anymore you can always get a new number on the national health insurance so national health insurance system is already having this idea of continuity across many numbers uh and so for for the national health insurance agency really as a foreigner or not a foreign it doesn't really matter right so so it cares only about the kind of unified id that's printed on the n-h-i card so if you have not updated to the new style foreign resident certificate id it's okay the n-h-i doesn't really care and if you change the n-h-i has a sense of continuity now i think it's even solved the mobile identification issue so if you have a monthly plan you can actually also use the n-h-i express app and authenticate yourself too to it so the n-h-i express app i think is equal uh it provides equity to people with the foreign style id cards so especially in the public sector we're seeing more and more like administrative labor and so on certainly for tax filing and so on switching to the national health care or the mobile id as the two primary identifying numbers uh and i think the the expat community the foreigner community made a push last year to the tax agency when they did not update the tw id so the new style tax filing service using mobile id was uh citizen only but that says a lot about our expectation like if you use the national health care id you must also cover for resident otherwise it is your problem right so i think this norm setting is good and we should still uh look into more parts of public service that doesn't accept either the n-h-i based authentication or mobile id based authentication because the foreigner community is equal in these two main modes of authentication and as for the you know the the numbering of the national id card and things like that unless we naturalize and everyone it's difficult to get an incentive for everyone to upgrade their system space on the kind of physical id card i think the the next push may may come when uh we we introduce the the kind of second digit a new second digit uh for domestic persons uh that may come in a year or two and that will be another window to push for more wide recognition uh for the digits eight and nine right so that that that they will come but before that day comes i think we should push for mobile id and or and should i express for the private sector and the public sector respectively thank you thank you minister tan we just have a small token of appreciation a cup of coffee okay a cup without coffee thank you thank you thank you thank you thank you