 So Hi, I'm Christoph I'm a Belgian and I'm a bioengineer You might ask yourself what I'm doing here But it's a very long story but I would like to start with a statement and It's one that you probably already know. It's life is very short and and and Like there's been a couple of things in my life in the past few years that were quite quite big events and That helped me realize like yes life is very short and we've we've got very little time on this planet and So my question to you or my challenge to you is to take out of this session is What are you going to do with your life in this very short time that you have? So this this session is going to be a little bit of an old man's talk My wife says that I'm getting gray So I feel entitled to doing an old man's talk and It's going to be about our story and how we've gotten to where we are right now and and and my story starts in 2006 in Brussels and I As I said, I was a by engineer and I've been doing consulting for bi-tech companies and we're doing like sales and marketing making a few websites and And and and we were doing that in Drupal because you know, I was looking for open-source software and and Drupal looked like a really cool tool and And just when I was I was living in Hungary at the time and when I was going back home I saw that there was a Drupal event in Brussels Drupal calm and it was free Epic when so, you know three days of Drupal, you know, why not? So I went there and it was amazing and It totally blew me away Because I you know, I'm not a developer. I'm I'm at that time. I was a site builder that was trying to do some teaming But you know very limited stuff some some design in GIMP really low cost and And and and there was sitting at this table and around the table. There's Gabor, Hoi Chi, Dries, CHX and a bunch of other people and We're talking about multilingual and I'm sitting there like wow, this is awesome. I Want to be part of this and that's how my Drupal journey started and So if you want to tweet that's my handle gave on Tommy and That's my company and that's my product And I would like to start with the start of our journey with this So first of all the fact that I'm here talking about products does not mean that I don't like being a consultant I like making I'm like making websites for people. I like Helping people that don't know how to do it and and providing service and and kind of guiding them and you know It's it's fun to be an expert That's great. That's a great feeling, but there's a few there's a few problems with that first one is oh the the first one is this people expect to pay you by the hour and Okay, you know that could be a fair deal, but the real problem is that I Don't know if you know what is a zero-sum game. I like, you know, right? It's from game theory that And a zero-sum game Basically as a consultant you're in a zero-sum game both with your customers and your employees Because your customers want to pay as little as possible and your employees want to get as much as possible and you're stuck in the middle and you know You can you can manage that and and you can figure a way out and like have some younger people that start a bit lower and then grow up and But it's you know, you're always stuck there and you're always thinking about are we going to go over budget if you do fixed price projects, are we going to You know, are we going to be able to make enough money to pay for all these people and it's just It's it's rather unpredictable and you're Come on and you're really stuck in the middle There's another problem Because if you like who here has a consulting company Like yeah, who works with employees? Okay So then you probably know this This is what customers want They want this super samurai team that's gonna come in that knows everything and then does really really simple things Like but the problem is that your developers they want to do new stuff. They don't want to be Click monkeys. That's what I call it like now in Drupal like site building if you're doing it the right way is a lot about clicking But the problem is that because of the deployment workflow You need people that know how to handle kids how to commit stuff how to do features and all that stuff And so you need quite high skilled people doing jobs that they don't necessarily like that much because it's always You know, it's fairly monotone. It's it's you know there's not that much development work going on if you're doing it right and So then like so there's those two problems and So Well the question and it's like our products better and I think Who here has read Tim Ferriss for the four-hour work week? Yeah, a lot of like I guess most everybody, right? That's why you're coming to this talk And the the ugly truth is that even Tim Ferriss is working 80 hour weeks He's not working for our weeks so So yes, there's that dream that you can find a little niche and build a product and be happy forever and The thing is the truth is that actually that's probably not all that right and So my talk is going to be partially a cautionary tale where I I'm not telling that you shouldn't do products But you should be careful and it's not that rosy as often people assume that it is And it's a very very hard process and and there's a lot of risk More risk than in consulting You can take out some risk with you know, what they call the lean startup methodology like who everybody knows that? I guess or not anybody who doesn't know about lean startups and minimal viable products. Okay, I'll quickly define so The idea is that There was a book that came out. I think it was the lean I think it was actually called the lean startup the title of the book In which a new methodology was explained for making products where basically instead of Figuring out some really crazy big dream and then building building building for ages And then launching and seeing that it doesn't work Because the customers don't want to buy it that you you start with a small product something like the smallest possible Product to the minimal viable product that people want to pay you money for and then you continue from there So that you're you're trying to find something that people want to buy and then and then after that You continue building it so that you don't end up spending a lot of money and time building something that nobody wants The problem with that and okay, that's a probably a really good idea And if you haven't heard of it before and you want to make a product you should definitely read that book but Lean startup methodology It's well, it's being used a lot lately to make really silly products like you know And and yes, if you can find a small niche and make a product that work for that niche and gets and and that works for you That's great But at the same time, you know, you have people saying like we're changing the world with an app that helps you schedule the time for your house cleaner and That's probably not really world-changing or it's not really I don't know if that's a good way of spending your time On your very limited time on this earth So what's a better way of doing this? and then so the way that we've approached that is basically doing this product service synergy thing and So we started as a consulting company and very early on we we were like whenever we had some downtime We were doing product ideas and trying different things We like really in the early days. We did some open atrium work. I don't know who here remembers open atrium. Yeah, okay so And we were one of the first Drupal companies to really you know buy into that dream like we were making features We had a feature server and it was all grand and no customers came But Because we were doing that kind of things we learned a lot and and our developers Got better at that's more engineering stuff like thinking product-wise that kind of thing so it actually While we made a lot of waste doing trying out a lot of different things I'd like to at least explain it to myself That actually that was useful because it helped us to become a better service company and vice versa by By being a service company. We were in the markets Getting to know people learning about things that might be interesting products because I think that it's possible to make a sort of symbiosis between products and services in in in a service company like all of you where The product that you're building or the ideas that you're trying that you're exploring You blog about and you talk to the world about and then some customers find out about that and then come to you and You know, you you can do more services and at the same time it helps you to explore Kind of like what what problem space would be interesting to work in You know what this is This is a lichen You know why I put that slide out. It's a symbiont. Yes This is one of the most successful Organisms on this earth. Yeah, I'm a by engineer. I'm sorry And it's basically it's a fungi and an algae living together like it can be algae or photosynthetic bacteria living together And they're you know where there's no plants. They're still living reindeer's eat this stuff So lichens you learn that today And as a service company You you basically the are you familiar? Well, I think you might be familiar with the concept of a runway that's what startups call how much time they have until they have to close the books and basically with a consulting company if like Okay, you don't have infinite runway because Your people also are expecting growth And but you have a much longer runway than if you would have taken cash from someone or saved up some cash and then You know try to do something It's a bit tricky to balance it all out But it gives you if you're if you've grown to a certain size like for us this really started working once we were a bit bigger like we're now 17 people I think and Yeah, it's it's only it's only once we we crossed like 10 people That we had some time like, you know that we could have one person doing this stuff And and that we could dedicate someone to to working on a product and then basically what you end up with is the ultimate bootstrapping machine and I don't know if you know the story about bootstrapping But that's the story about Baron von Moeghausen who pulls himself at his shoelaces out of the mud That's what you're doing You're building something out of nothing with no resources. It's impossible but still you're doing it but so we were doing all of this and The funniest thing happened we ended up doing more and more around documentation the D word the evil D word and And That's not something developers get too excited about unfortunately and And I was also myself thinking like why the hell are we doing documentation products? Why are we in this space? How did we end up here and and and is this really worth it? Is this really the thing that we want to do and Like why are we doing this? because I Was not really really clear about Life purpose like what I want to reach in this world with my limited time that I have I always thought like art, you know, you you you read about this stuff and people say like, you know You have to make a dent in the universe and And yeah, I was like, yeah, that kind of sounds cool to make something really huge and big and and You know make an impact on the world And and have posterity talk about you But if you think about it A dent in the universe is just as empty as money. It's a resource Money and a dent and fame are both resources They should not be goals into themselves if you use them as your goals. You're probably gonna have a very poor life Like if this is what you're, you know if your whole life energy you're going to be spending on either becoming famous or getting rich and You you're not you don't know what you're gonna do with that fame or rich them then probably you're doing it wrong Or at least that's what I think Because and then and then I started thinking like, okay, so what is then better? should I be the tree trunk like, you know the big project or Or should I stay and stay and be a leaf or the roots that is feeding the ecosystem should I Stay put in the consulting business because I am doing valuable stuff. I am contributing to the world and helping people It's just not on that biggest scale But at the same time it is contributing to the larger organism. That's that our community is And and then I realized that you know, even people that are not really necessarily Thinking about this stuff that are not really thinking about what are they doing with their life? Even they are contributing every day to The fabric that's around us If you're if you're doing any job what you're doing is you're basically helping the economy You're growing economy and the economy is is what is giving us this life that we have today If you are just a thinking being in society You are a substrate for culture. You are even if you're not contributing even if you're not producing You are still a resonance body that is resonating with the culture that is around us Even if you don't do anything else your body Once it decays is part of nature. So We cannot escape being part of this bigger thing that's around us of society. That's that's that we are part of So you might as well try to do something big Now The tech crunch mid First I have to make a confession. I have submitted a proposal for the tech crunch event. That's happening next Tuesday here in Austin So I'm trying to get I'm trying to pitch in front of that crunch But I would like to debunk one myth That is very pervasive in in the startup world and in the IT sector in particular It's this idea that equates your value as a person and as a startup and as a company With the amount of money that you've raised And that's just ridiculous It's not it like your You Don't necessarily there's there's many different parts towards towards success or towards being who you are like, you know, the three picture You don't have to be a really successful giant million dollar or billion dollar company to to have made your contribution any contribution counts and And you have to be very careful with this because when you take money from investors You're basically you've strapped yourself to a rocket and okay, this is a bomb So maybe this is a bit more doomsie than than a rocket But what you're doing when you're when you're taking investor money is Saying okay, whatever happens. We're gonna make this huge exit or We're gonna go bust and those are the two options that are in front of you and there's nothing left nothing else So when you when you take that step be very cautious Don't just take it because you think that you should or because that's what everybody's doing. That's the wrong reason Because you you know your map of reality is just totally off and Even if you're successful as a startup, you might not like where you ended up like you might you know You might not make the moon Okay so Because I think Two little people really realize that there is a choice you you can choose to maximize your shareholder value You can choose to create a foundation and run ads for donations Or you can choose to make a company that's a social enterprise. I don't know if you've heard that term This is something new that's coming up Which is basically it's a company that is running like a company that's providing services But it is pumping the money back into the community. So you're you know, you're still living you have a wage You know, so you're not living like a popper So you can you can have a decent life, but you don't have that crazy upshot of potentially becoming a billionaire But you are consciously choosing to contribute as much as possible to the ecosystem around you So that's that's a social enterprise. That is a possibility There's there's even business forms for that actually Mozilla Foundation is kind of bad Where they've they've constructed it in a bit of an interesting way But like in UK, you can get a corporation format that is at the same time a for profit That is generating money through services, but then uses those to to build built Built a community and build a product one example of that is ghost the blogging platform, which is a competitor of WordPress and They basically said we're gonna raise money and all the money is going to go into this foundation And and we're going to just use any income that we have to keep making it better So you don't worry. We're not gonna turn into a CMS That's what they basically said so and then How do you find purpose, but what is purpose and I Think that's purposes Emergence it's something that evolves from your interaction with society And what I mean with that is there's a really interesting that talk that Andrew Solomon did. I don't know if you anybody seen it It's it's about and he in which he explains that It's our hardships that we use to forge meaning in the world It's our hardships that we've used to forge identity and and I really love that sentence because it has that duplicity that it's at the same time forging which could be faking it and Using of a raw resource to build something something complex forging and building something bigger and And I think that You should not force yourself to like so if you want to build a product don't Don't worry if you don't know immediately what you're gonna do take your time Everything that starts needs time to build and grow The biggest things like an ant nest. This is an ant green another biology reference and also starts from one one single organism and in in really short time they go to a few million and So purpose, you know give it time to evolve Because like this thing it's a desert rose It grows very slowly and it takes a lot of time to grow This is an evaporate crystal some way it works is that you've got a little bit of water with some salt It crystallizes then the wind comes turns it around a little bit and that's how you get these really beautiful crystals and Actually Drupal is a really good place to do that because I like to call it the Drupal womb Which is this sheltered place where there's a lot of people that mean it well and I want to do something good in the world and that will help you as much as they possibly can to achieve what you're trying to reach and And so being part of the community gives you that opportunity to really you know find find what what your art is going to be oops So it's a great place to discover purpose Drupal is also a really good tool for prototyping like we are building a product with Drupal now and Like last week we needed a tool for doing double-sided incentives two-sided incentives, which is a it's a growth hacking technique and You know if you just download user points install it and that I'm there you go So it makes it really easy to Really rapidly prototype and try out things But another caution and this is probably one of the most important messages of the stock Drupal is a great incubator, but it is not your market unless you are Unless you are a hosting company or a support company or something like that You you really need to think outside of the Drupal market. It's rather small actually Even though that it's huge. It's rather small If you're gonna make a niche project a product like a big chance that that's there's not enough people in the Drupal market Most people that I see thinking about products the first time they're like we're gonna make something for people like us Drupal developers Let's make I don't know a coding tool for Drupal developers. I like okay, but there's no market There's there's such a small fraction. That's not you know, that's not viable So that's a very important thing to remember take it away if you're thinking about a product Now, how how did I find my purpose? So as I said like? It's It's been quite an indirect road and first like I've always felt like a fake in the Drupal community because I was not a developer and and and so I've tried to overcompensate to doing a lot of events and But But it's you know after some time after being there for a very long time you get to know a lot of people you you basically you're part of that community and You find out that you know, it's okay to be who you are and to just do the thing that you've ended up doing and that's okay Oh that's just annoying and I had this I had this realization Like my son has been really sick like I talked about this big thing that happened in my life and when my son was 16 months old, he was diagnosed with cancer and Well, that was quite a shock and But well, he's he's healthy. Everything is good. He's recovered. He's a really happy little kid very energetic But while I was with him in the hospital where I was sitting next to him At some point I realized I had this realization That just how many people were actively working in keeping him alive like you know every day and it's amazing and And and then how many people Contributed to the science that created the medicines to keep him alive And how many hundred thousands of patients that went through the same protocols to make them safe and How many millions of people because I'm a Belgian so our health insurance actually works? How many millions of people were paying for that and and making it so that my company didn't go bankrupt while I was taking care of my son and And and that was you know, that was a really strong realization I You know this great gratitude towards the world for for this so the world is the universe is very unjust The universe is indifferent to what we do But it is our communities around us that make it that are generous and that are helping us To live in this world. That's much better than it was 10 or 20 years ago 30 years ago my son would have been dead and that's yeah but then I Came down from the hospital So I come down on the road and I'm walking on the road and realize, you know, this is exactly the same thing Like this road has been built by hundreds of people with the money from millions of people and It's giving to us freely Just to you know, this fabric of generosity that's around us now I know this is America and money's probably a little bit more urgent here than it is in Europe But even here you can see that's that there is that fabric of generosity and that even if you have to pay for something There's still a lot of service that the community provides to you If you look at just this room like just this thing how many people worked on this How many thousands of hours? Well, I don't know. I can't even fatten how much hours of science was needed to make this thing and You know now it's here. I can use it and and there's so many things around us that are like that And you know, I want to give back. I've got a big depth to settle There's a there's a lot of I owed the Belgian government a lot of tax money also the French government by Well, you know They're because you know, we had some of our treatment in Paris. It's just amazing and What I realized through the years is that for me my purpose what I am here to do is to be an evangelist is to To be part of community to help generate community that is my form of art And I encourage you to find your form of art. Whatever it is And for me this presentation is like this and I don't know. Do you know what this what this picture is? Anybody knows? Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah, this this wave is as big as an apartment block and that little doll there. That's a guy surfing it that's insanity But it is flow and It is it's this expression of who you are it is Being someone and being part of like making the best out of your life out of the limited time that you have here So I believe that if you want to make a product The only well according to me the best or a good reason to do it is that it is to create your own art it is to resonate with community and to be Out there producing the one thing that only you can produce that will help humanity go forward and You know what that is? That's a Godi's model of the Sagrada Familia He invented he Designed a building that was so complex That he needed to invent a whole new modeling technique to be able to define how the curves should be so that it would stay up And then They needed to invent concrete to be able to build it It's insane But and and heat well, okay It's a bit of a sobering sort of because he died a really cheap a really poor person He was hit by a metro and nobody knew who he was but probably we shouldn't talk about that part I think that's probably a golden middle way. Hey, but you don't have to go that far so but Some more advice When you bootstrap be careful cash flow You really need some way to project your cash flow you have to have an idea of How much business you have coming in and that's while you're busy with your product? You're not forgetting about cash flow. This is something that we've sometimes struggled with and it's Because you know consulting is unpredictable as it is but when your reserves and your Profit is going into building a product. You have to be very careful Next thing open up if you have a product idea start talking about it today talk with these people Our product right now is only like I'll show it to you in a moment if you want But our product is only what it is today because several people have given us key insights from the community like The first prototype that we had like we did this minimal viable product, which was like So the idea was that we were going to make a tool for presenters To share their screen with the rest of the people in a room, which was like super super niche So like I told my colleague like no, let's let's make something that just works without a presenter But then I went with that second prototype to to a Drupal user group And there was someone who said like oh you should be using selenium The testing language so we started using that we did a new prototype did a crowdfunding campaign raised the money Then build a further like continued building Went to Drupal on Prague and then somebody else said well That's really cool, but you should be using a proxy server to inject your JavaScript Like and all these really crazy insanely good ideas Have come from the community and so use the community as your leverage Don't hide what you're doing talk with people about it and you know if somebody else is already doing it Somebody else is already doing it. There's somebody else in the community that's building a similar product as us But he's his conception for it is completely different And that's okay, but being open like for us being open has paid off a lot So if you have an idea go out and talk with people about it and then keep tuning Keep tuning tuning tuning until you find resonance because the first ideas You know people didn't care and now what we see now people are really getting excited about what we're doing so Look for synergies between your product and your service It's hard don't underestimate it You can do MVP's but don't forget about your vision Everybody contributes even if you're doing service. That's okay. Don't worry. That's a valuable thing to do Purpose emerges Drupal is an incubator not your end market Don't buy the tech crunch myth and make your own art now who's curious what we're doing And So everything today is going online, right Your term of stuff is online has an online interface your government is online Your family and friends have an online interface. It's called Facebook and It goes on and on and on and everything is going online but there's a lot of people that That That don't know how to handle that. There's a lot of people that haven't learned how to even fill in simple forms for whom Just configuring their Facebook so that it's private is actually a huge challenge so and we believe that it's important to to help those people and the thing is that Video tutorials and screenshot tutorials are not gonna cut it Because the internet is changing so fast now today that That is impossible to keep up with it Like you record a video and and the next day it might already be outdated because some little Graphical element changed Somewhere on a page that you pass by and you don't even know it and people think like this looks different than what I'm looking at And also you've got the two screen thing where you've got screen one where you have the tutorial and then screen two Where you're actually doing the thing and you've got to like jump back and forward and and that doesn't work. It's a car crash and And it's also it's very you know, we're today in a world of collaboration and And it's this it's a solo mission where Some poor bastards Has been assigned to be the documentation writer. Okay, some people like it and you know, I like also writing but Often it's a developer who's like assigned to do the documentation and And they're doing it on their own and that's just it's kind of silly and insane like why don't we work together with the community? Today when you're writing a Drupal site when you're making a Drupal site One of the one of the things that everybody hates or all the developers hate in this community is writing documentation What is the only thing that we're not collaborating on? documentation like How insane is that? So we're collaborating on modules and and whenever we have some new functionality We like community contributed back to the community, but when we write documentation to explain how modules work We just do it in a Google doc with some screenshots and you know throw it over the edge and and nobody ever looks at it again Which is ridiculous So that's why we built this thing and I'm gonna Hope this works That makes it easy to record and share walkthrough tutorials that play on top of websites When you need to show a customer or manager how a website works You simply record it at custom descriptions or leave the defaults and Share the resulting walkthrough the real magic. However happens when someone searches for your webpage on walkup We display any walkthroughs that have already been played there and suggest walkthroughs that worked on web pages with a similar structure With a premium account, you can even use screenings to automatically test and retest what walkthroughs work on your web page Screenings also generate up-to-date screenshots that you can use in your documentation and a screening widget that you can embed on your blog Want to try it out sign up to get a bedtime fight and Oh, isn't it doing it? Okay, so that's a walkup. That's what we're building It's open source Our mobile is open SAS. So the idea is that you can come and use it as a SAS tool and then If you want to run your own you just download it and have your own walkup Yeah, it's kind of like making documentation testable and something that the community collaborates on Because you know if if you have a Drupal site We'll be able to say like oh this Drupal site all these editorial walkthroughs will work here or all these admin walkthroughs will work here and that's a let's walk up and I think I'm I'll be doing a buff session Tomorrow, I'll have Belgian chocolates there. I Couldn't bring more like I brought like three kilo of chocolates But yeah, I couldn't bring enough for this room But I do have chocolates for two people that want to go and stand at the door For me and collect name cards of the people that would be interested in an invite only beta account for walkup So if you think that this is interesting and you would like to have a beta invite Like who wants to stand at the door and get a really good Belgian chocolate Okay, that's one someone over there also one anybody interested You want to take okay, cool. So Yeah, and and come and check out the the presentation, there's also flyers on the chairs next to the two doors Okay. Thank you. Are there any questions? Yeah So the monetization so the way it will work. It's a bit tricky because it's open source, right? the the way that we imagine it to work is that if you're So the thing we're going to charge for is the screenings So creating walkthroughs or recording or playing walkthroughs is free But if you want to have them with the pictures and and them to look nice You're gonna have to pay for that So and because we're gonna do this for all of the internet So people people will be able to just record walkthroughs on a random websites Even if they don't own that site, but if you then want to claim ownership over that sites documentation Then you have to pay us for that and you know to make it nicer also Okay But you know you can download it and have you all yeah, yeah That's It's a very long story We started with Selenium IDE But then It just didn't work Because we were recording stuff that we couldn't play because you know Selenium is this really complex thing and it records a whole crazy crapload of things and in like slightly different commands and then you know we couldn't play it so Ultimately after we were seeing that people were having a lot of trouble at using it We just decided to throw it out and make our own recorder So now the recorder the way it works is it's you know drive-by-wire. Have you heard of that? It's a principle now today's cars instead of directly steering the steering wheel Well, I think the steering wheel also or definitely the gas instead of directly interacting with the engine You're interacting with a computer that then does the action All right, so what we're doing is we've put a layer in between your mouse and the site And when you're clicking you're clicking on our layer and then our layer clicks on the site And that way we can record everything that happens and we're sure that the things that we record we can also play Which is like That's innovation right there Yeah, so we're using well we're using the The stuff is recorded in Selenis. So we're using Selenium commands That we've extended with with the the description field But we're we've implemented our own player in JavaScript that actually plays it so that you know You don't need to you need don't need to install anything on your site. You just you can you can load it over our proxy So I've got a walkthrough that runs on the White House's website They're not our customer yet So so we're we're just We load their sites and inject our JavaScripts over our proxy and then we can record that way without installing anything No browser plug-in. No site plug-in nothing And then we can also play it without installing anything. It's a bit brittle because the You know proxies and cross-site scripts and that doesn't always match, but it's um, but you know in a lot of cases does work Yeah Yeah, Ronald. Yeah Yeah Yeah, um, I'm not sure if I'm a good business person But basically, you know, we're well First of all, this is has likes right because we've we've done a crowdfunding campaign where we had 49 people Pitching in money to do this for Drupal Right and now we're doing it for all of the internet. So, you know We're gonna do another crowdfunding campaign by the way starting somewhere early next week so Once something has legs You just you just keep going Or at least that's that's what I'm doing. Is it the right thing? I don't know I think But there it comes in that this is also art and If you think with a pure business mind, like you don't do this right Then, you know, you have to be crazy to do it like that I Strongly believe in it that this is the right thing to do and that it's gonna be huge and that it's gonna have an enormous impact And that, you know, I'm gonna earn a decent living from it but the amount of like, you know I think you have to be you just have to be validating fast enough so that you're you always should be validating and Verifying that there's a market and that people actually want what you're doing So you can do that but then it's still that doesn't solve the hard question is when do you stop That is the that is the hard question Yeah, it's a lot It's a whole lot and it's free you can just download it from github So yeah, yeah We used to do it so that it was only during bench time that we did it But then once we really had traction we just said, okay Dedicated people first we had one dedicated person then to now we have two and a half That's a moment. There's three and a half working on it right now from a company of 17 people. So that's a lot Don't forget the name cards And other questions, okay, so if you want to bet I invite My helper over there The winner of the fantastic chocolate Is it can take your name cards and then we'll add you to the mail to the mailing list that will also get you a beta invite And then you'll get all the information. Yeah That's the same but one thing I've learned this. Oh, this is valuable for for you when you're doing this kind of stuff Flyers don't work Links don't work. I pull a whole full room like with 40 people at At you get higher education summit and three people sign up like people are like, wow, this is cool We need this and only three sign up which is ridiculous because I'm sure that a lot more are interested As Anna and they have the flyer and they're like, yeah, I'll do that later And then they lose it and then you know or it gets stuck in between all the other swag and they forget about it So that's why I'm doing the name card thing So I make it even easier for you to sign up you don't have to do anything for it Okay. Okay. Thank you very much