 For those of you who don't know me my name is Erica Redick. I am thank you Thank you. Thank you Many of you know me as the host of generally irritable a podcast that covers Politics here in Vermont news here in Vermont actually one of my accounting clients is here. So that's kind of cool Some of you know me from from various different endeavors that I've been engaged in But what you may not know is is why I was invited and asked to host the event so I Happen to be uniquely qualified to To talk and to help host this event because I've been on both sides of the criminal justice Scenario, I've been both the victim and the perpetrator I am in fact the statistic that we hear about very often here in Vermont in 2001 I was out downtown with some friends of mine and I was drugged and sexually assaulted I woke up the next day to a stranger in my bed and then went through the process of Reporting that person to the police going through all of all of the the motions of that and Ended up having my case dismissed for lack of sufficient evidence So going through that my doctor saw that I was struggling with stress and anxiety shocker, right? When when you're drugged and or when you're victimized in such a way as your power is really just taken completely away from you and You realize that you can't always protect yourself and that there are people out there who are willing to do you harm Even when you're paying attention So my doctor said oh Erica's got anxiety. We'll just prescribe her a little medication to help with that Well, it wasn't long before that prescription drug got mixed with alcohol Got mixed with some other things because as you can imagine Going through that kind of traumatic event had a tremendous impact on me and so I went from being a very strong-willed very strong-minded young woman to a drug addict and an alcoholic and In 2005 after many years of being miserable and unhappy and struggling with drug addiction I was arrested and I served time in the Windsor State facility for women Because I stole money from my employer to support my drug habit and I thank God every single day That I got caught and I got busted when I did and I got arrested and I had the police Intervene in my addiction Amen that is correct Because if I hadn't I don't know that I would still be alive today I Don't know that I would still be alive today if the criminal justice system gave me what it calls mercy today Had I not been made accountable for my actions had I not been told that I was responsible Even though I was also a victim. I would never have regained agency over my life Standing before you today with 13 years of sobriety and so Thank you So in 2009 I surrendered my life to the God that I understood at that time I took 12 steps. I started to put my life back together. I Learned how to be a contributing member of society again I learned that it didn't matter how far down the path. I had gone I could overcome and have all of my hopes and dreams I counted on and I utilized the justice system to help me put my life back together and get back on my feet When I struggled I called my corrections officer. I called my probation officer. I asked for help I utilized the system to get well and I believe that other people can do the same thing The reason I am so passionate about this we have among the highest drug abuse in the country and Now with the rising crime Violent crime here in Vermont and we're saying oh well if you're if you're an addict or if you're this We're just gonna leave you on the street and we're not gonna do anything about it and ladies and gentlemen That is not mercy. That is not how we have a safe and civil society And so I am super excited to have been asked to host this event and and to introduce our guests because If it wasn't for the work that you all have done I know that I wouldn't be standing here today And I can't tell you how many more of my compatriots in in the sober community also would not be here today So thank you for your efforts and thank you for being here You can clap for that I remember we've we've got some security in the back room I remember telling the police officer. Thank you for arresting me one time and he was like I've never had anyone thank me for arresting them And I said well if you didn't I'd be dead. So there you go So this evening. We're really excited to be joined first. Let me introduce our moderator Christopher Aaron Felker. He is the He is the Burlington GOP chair and and and political extraordinaire He's just he's helping everybody with their campaigns and he's working super hard So it's super good Michael Hall executive director of the Vermont police coalition down on the end Christina Nolan former US Attorney for the district of Vermont and Brady I always pronounce your name wrong Great, it's Townsend, right? That works correct me Tunzing Brady Tunzing ah former senior counsel for the United States Department of Justice Thank you, and Christopher is going to take it from here Thank you very much Erica. Thank you for the introduction My name is Christopher Aaron Felker and I'll be moderating this event this evening going to introduce our our guests Michael Hall has 40 years of law enforcement experience He was the Manchester Vermont police department for 36 years and retired as chief in 2019 He has served on his local school board as chairman and he has operated He has operated a successful contracting business for 35 years He is then the executive director of the Vermont police coalition since its creation in 2012 and he is also certified as a licensed polygraph examiner Mr. Brady Tunzing is a Vermont lawyer and partner in the Washington DC law form Ginova de Ginova and Tunzing he previously served as the legislative assistant to the United States Senator Warren Rudman More recently he worked with the United States Department of Justice as senior counsel in the office of legal policy in Private practice he has successfully defended government officials including the director of Washington DC's prison system and The FBI hostage rescue team member during the investigations into Ruby Ridge and Waco Miss Christina Nolan has served as the US Attorney for Vermont from 2017 to 2021 in that capacity she focused her efforts on tackling the opioid crisis and gun violence By increasing the number of federal charges against drug trafficking organizations domestic abusers and convicting Purdue Pharma for illegally marketing oxycodone and partnering with treatment and prevention communities Miss But wait, there's more Miss Nolan is also known for charging the EV 5 scandal in the Northeast Kingdom the Kingdom Con the largest fraud case in the history of Vermont and for securing one of the most Significant human trafficking convictions in the history of the country her work also focused on promoting the northern Berthard security and combating child Exploitation among other safety issues before serving as US Attorney Miss Nolan worked as the US as the assistant US Attorney at the US Attorney office in 2010 to 2017 Prosecuting a wide range of federal charges. She is presently a litigation partner at the Burlington law firm if she heaf her long and the M beam and Again, my name is Chris try and Felker and I'll be the moderator of this evening's event The format is going to be as follows. We this is a panel discussion and public workshop We will be addressing four different topics the first topic will be Each panelist will be address it will address their assigned subject matter for about five to ten minutes I will offer some follow-up questions afterwards and we'll repeat this process with each one of the panelists the Fourth panel on how long for order is being restored in other states will be addressed by the entire panel Once we get through the fourth panel, we will open up the floor for conversation for questions. Are we set with the PowerPoint? terrific So the topics for this evening We'll begin with mr. Michael Hall taking a closer look at crime statistics Mr. Tunzing will exit take us into examining qualified immunity and Miss Nolan will Her panel is providing law enforcement and prosecutors with appropriate tools through legislative action and With that I'd like to turn it over to Mr. Michael Hall Thank you very much Christopher, and thank you Keith from on safe for inviting me here this evening to be part of this discussion If the statistics that you're about to see tonight Alarm and concern year they should and And One of the things that I'd like to do is to start out by kind of defining What some of those statistics statistics are and how they're derived and for example? Burlington defines gunfire Incident as an incident where they believe that a firearm has been discharged in some sort of a commission or Direction of a criminal act and So the numbers that you see her aren't fireworks their gunshot and They're Defined as such a shooting as an incident where an individual has actually been shot or injured and To help you understand those I think it's important that you know that be clarified So you understand the statistics that you're looking at aren't you know just random calls of you know gunfire fireworks or something of that nature and The statistics in themselves again should be concerning to anyone in the city here Because from 2012 to 2019 Your city was experiencing a couple of these incidents per year Sometimes more sometimes a little less but the average was two About 2020 those numbers jumped up to 12 a year and then in 2021 they went to 14 and So far in 2022 We're 23 those numbers in and of themselves speak and Indicate that you got a problem and The gunfire incidents are broken down here in the chart you see on the display and They're broken down by day of the week and Just give me a moment to put my glasses on them near sighted and by the time of day and If you look at those statistics, there's nothing out of the ordinary on those most of the shootings most police activity of significant Volume happens over the weekends and during the evening hours early morning and That's reflected by the statistics that you can see here and You know obviously Saturday night early Sunday morning is a critical time and that seems to be when you have most of your problems and those timeframes are pretty consistent with a number of different crimes that take place during those days and hours and If we could go to the next slide of By calendar year Excuse me by calendar days If you look at the statistics on there It's pretty much like a dartboard. I don't think there's any way that you could foresee or do any kind of proactive Estimating or policing where you think you may be able to select The date and time that one of these incidents might happen Which shows the randomness of what it is and from a policing standpoint It's hard to allocate resources when you have those kind of metrics in the incidents when they take place because You could staff change your staffing ratios and staffing hours and as you could see it would be nearly impossible to Figure out one would be the appropriate time and place to have the majority of your staff working and we move on to Crime rates overall and I think that Would be an opportunity to take a look at Whenever you have an increase in in gun violence and whenever you have a significant increase in crime period It's important to take a look at averages over the years and Comparing again the your five-year Year-to-date so all of the numbers that you see in any of the charts are year-to-date Of the time those statistics were put together You'll see that in every category, but two up there on the board 2022 figures have increased significantly and most importantly if you look at the incidence of quality of life issues such as Stolen vehicle gunfire up three hundred and forty percent your drug overdoses are up a hundred and forty six percent Aggravated assaults 52% Those kind of numbers when you see them from one year to another Are just astronomical If this was a five-year average you would Think it wasn't such a big deal, but these numbers are condensed and Those numbers that you see there may not totally be accurate because you don't really know how many crimes weren't reported You don't know how many people were sexually assaulted. It didn't report it You don't know how many people had their vehicle stolen only to have their neighbor friend or somebody Tell them where it was and they went and they got it or what have you so anytime you see statistical numbers like that You can probably expect that those numbers are a little bit greater in some respects What's interesting when I was looking at the information and I I Heard some comments from some of the folks Within your community that well the crime rates aren't that far off from what they were, you know say back in 2017 or whatever When you're looking at things like burglary What what's happening is and I saw this in our community is that a lot of times you get people that don't report crimes And the reason why they don't report them is for the same reason a lot of people they've lost faith in the system And in some cases they'll say well, what good is it gonna do? They're not gonna do anything. Anyway, and So again, those those numbers could be skewed also, you know when you're talking about reported burglaries One or two people in a community Can cause those numbers to to go all over the place? I mean one individual can commit a tremendous amount of burglaries in a period of you know one night and Provided that they don't get caught over say a summer's period of time or a three month span They could they could create havoc within your community And I think if you haven't experienced that here, there are certainly communities in Vermont that have The one thing that I would like to see out of that survey and Statistical information is how much of those how many of those crimes were committed? By the same person How many of those crimes that you see up there are the same individual? Maybe multiple charges, maybe multiple crimes, but they're still out Committing more crimes in your community and One of the things that I think is important and You know, I'm I'm in uncharted territory here in Burlington, but I'll say it because I've Said it for a long time even back when I was chief you If you have an area or you have a city or jurisdiction Where crime is not being or the laws are not being enforced We go back to the broken window theory that if you don't take care of a little incidents. They become big incidents and You know when you have a county prosecutor that is not Prosecuting certain cases or dismissing certain cases or dismissing charges That feeds into the frenzy of the criminal element Because it doesn't take these folks long to realize that they're not going to be or be any consequences or very minor consequences and Again, I would go back to the fact that there comes a point where the crime becomes so much of a normal Thing every day. They're exposed to it. There are areas of the city around the country where People don't report the crimes because they are pretty well convinced nothing's going to happen and I suspect that that is how already happening here and With that, you know, I think that The information that the public has my gauge on How safe your communities are shouldn't be based on numbers they should be based on what the public feels Because you folks are going to realize when you have a problem To the scale that needs to be addressed long before the numbers indicate that and I think you're well beyond that point and You know, it's not going to change overnight But there are a lot of factors driving in my opinion a lot of factors driving While you're while you're seeing the increases in crime in your city that you are and On a statewide basis, I think if you look on a statewide and on a national basis every city That made a decision that they wanted to defund the police have made an irreparable Decision that is causing the people in those cities great harm and I would suggest that a good start to curtailing crime in your city would be to voice your opposition to the people that have the discretion of whether or not these people are Prosecuted into what extent they're prosecuted and what the end result is You're gonna hear such things as justice reinvestment You know reinvestment in the community those folks that stuff's been around for a long time All we've done is renamed it brought it out on our new thing I'm not for mass incarceration But you cannot keep allowing bad people out onto your streets recommitting more crime They drive the numbers up. They make your communities less safe And it's very important that you as the elect or you as the Community members and voters in your city that you put people in positions that are good going to make sure that you're safe If that's not a priority to you then That's okay, but I think most people want to go to bed at night Not worrying about whether a stray bullet's gonna come through their bedroom window And with that, I'll hand it off to Thank You mr. Hall I Can you go back to slides Brad? Perfect this is Some alarming data to look at and and I'm not convinced that domestic assaults and sexual assaults are actually down I think that since we're going back five years and we've been in a COVID posture for the last two and a half I mean, we were warned at the beginning of COVID that you would hear about an Underreporting of domestic assaults left and right and I think that this is proving it to us right here I don't really think everybody just stopped Busing at home We have seen and heard anecdotally people who live in Burlington are very well aware that there has been a Very intentional drive to teach people to not call the police for one reason or another either because they felt that Personally that the police weren't going to help in the situation Or if that the police are already overtaxed and that they don't have the time to come There has been an intentional push to teach people to not call and report When things that happen to them and we hear it over time and time again on front porch forum and on Facebook groups where People are posting that their bike was stolen or that they found somebody in their parking lot going through just checking to see if The doors were unlocked just so that way they could clear it out I've been in this room many times before and so I think it's very important that You utilize the tools if something if you are a victim of something Please make sure that you are reporting that crime because if you don't then we aren't having a Really fair conversation a fair conversation comes about from having really accurate data and so we need to have accurate data Thank you Brad. We can jump to the next section. Thank you. Mr. Hall We're going to I'm going to turn into qualified immunity say really big subject, and I'm glad you're here to talk to us about it Chris thank you very much, and thank you to keep Vermont safe for having me here tonight All right, we'll make sure that Hopefully this is picking me up. All right, so I'm going to talk about qualified immunity And just describe it for a little bit to set up this conversation as we go forward You might ask what is qualified immunity you may have heard about it in the papers, but it's not really described Qualified immunity is a court created defense that's available to Federal officials who are accused of violating the federal Constitution or federal law Under this doctrine the government officials can only be held liable for violating what are called clearly established constitutional and legal rights And it's important to note that it only bars monetary damages. It does not bar injunctive relief Next slide, please So when is it used? Well when state officials are sued under 42 USC section 1983 which is the Civil Rights Act of 1871 They are allowed to assert qualified immunity as a defense Federal officials are also able to use it when they're sued under what's called the Bivens versus six unknown federal agents Which is a court created cause of action for violating us constitutional rights or federal law next please So how does it operate? what happens is the plaintiff will bring a lawsuit against a federal official and then the lawyers for that federal official or the State official will raise qualified immunity as an affirmative defense It happens right at the start of the case if it's successful The defense allows the defendant to be released from the lawsuit at the very beginning before discovery or before all the expensive parts of a lawsuit occur Otherwise its purpose would be totally undermined So the the defense protects against not just liability But the expense of litigation and the costs that come with that next please The way the courts decide whether qualified immunity Applies is they they employ a two-part test the first part of the test asks All right under these alleged facts Do they show that the government official violated a constitutional or statutory right If the answer is yes, then you move to the second part of the test and the court asks Was this right clearly established? So the question is if at the time of the alleged conduct A reasonable official under all the same circumstances Would not have believed that they were violating a clearly established right If that's the case then qualified immunity applies and the case is dismissed Under supreme court precedent clearly established means that there's a court decision Or another court precedent that's saying that already says that similar conduct Is illegal so when you when you raise the defense you try to You're saying that there's no other conduct like this And uh plaintiffs counsel are saying yes, there is here's a case It's just like this and then you argue and then the court makes a decision Next please So this is part of what the court's rationale is which is Have the officials been given fair notice that their conduct is unlawful And if you look at the case law that talks about it They talk about how it needs to be sufficiently clear So that every reasonable official would have understood that what they were doing was illegal and violated that right And the supreme court looks at it and they say Hey, we need to give our government official Officials breathing room so that they can make reasonable But mistaken judgments about open legal questions next please and So that gets to the goal of qualifying immunity and this is where the court sort of Rationalized the need to have immunity for government officials And they said what we need to do is we need to balance the need to hold government officials accountable And while we're minimizing the social costs of excessive litigation And the social cost is they listed four social costs as they looked at it and number one is the obvious one Which is the expensive litigation Come come back to that slide, please uh The other one is When when a public official is sued they're distracted from their official duties And we don't want to distract them from what they're supposed to be doing and what they were hired for And then the third point is that we do not want to deter Qualified people from seeking public office But the fourth side the fourth element of this was what the court decided was the most important Which is we do not want to dissuade public officials From properly performing their duties from being afraid to do their jobs because they're afraid they're going to be sued next please The critics claim that qualified immunity prevents people from having their day in court That they they're victims if they're victims of police misconduct They should have a right to have their cases heard when their rights have been violated uh next please So in response to that criticism uh senators, uh Introduced a bill called s 254 and I actually believe that one of the chitenden senators senators introduced this bill That bill as introduced would eliminate the defense of qualified immunity If any police officer is accused accused of violating vermont constitutional or statutory rights It removed any limitations that exist in statute on liability Damages or attorneys fees Um, and it would make the city or the municipality Responsible to pay those legal fees and any judgment except and this is this is an important Important point. They wanted to make every law enforcement official potentially liable for 25 000 of any judgments that came in if If their agency decided that they had acted in bad faith Next please so In the legislative process is an interesting process What the legislature ended up doing is they watered it down considerably. They kicked the can into the next legislature And so as past The the vermont legislator just asked the office of legislative council to submit by mid november a legal analysis of both qualified immunity and s 254 as it was introduced And this is another interesting part the bill directs the office of legislative council to quote not make any policy recommendations Next please This is just a sampling of payouts in vermont when people have sued to for police misconduct from 2004 to 2014 over a quarter million dollars was paid out for alleged taser misuse and then you have Three other cases that are examples where estates or people who are victims Alleged victims of police misconduct sued and were able to get get Settlements from the the state of the miss new miss Excuse me municipality next please The second circuit is the federal circuit that is the appellate court for vermont for federal cases so In the second circuit they've denied qualified immunity meaning they defy denied this defense in eight out of ten Of the most recent excessive force case excessive force cases So in 80 of the cases they denied this defense So you can see there's a there's a list of denied cases Most of them involve people who claim that they they had succumbed to the police orders Or they weren't resisting arrest or they were handcuffed or about to be handcuffed and they were beaten up Or they were tased after they after they had already Started obeying what the police officers were saying. There's another one where a sound gun was used against alleged nonviolent protesters and that they claim they weren't warned and That's then there's another one that's a warrantless entry and use of a beanbag shotgun And the courts allowed those to go forward without giving the defense of qualified immunity Where it was granted there was a case where handcuffs were used But the person who was arrested never complained about the handcuffs and the court said well if they didn't say anything There's a reasonable officer would be right to think that the handcuffs may not have been tight Too tight and that they're their rights were not being violated And in another case Deaf student was tased. He was holding a rock in a menacing way and he refused to obey sign language orders next please So the vermont supreme court and these are the state cases that are brought under state law in the vermont supreme court There have been 12 cases addressing qualified immunity of those cases the court denied immunity in three cases Allowed it in five and never reached the issue in four cases because it wasn't necessary And the case where it was denied there was a welfare check that was performed on the wrong house So the police went to the wrong house and the people who were at the wrong house sued for their constitutional rights being violated Another one was a person was arrested Because he was in a discussion with a police officer. He used profanity. He was charged with disorderly conduct and in vermont To its credit. It's a very strong first amendment state or constitution very strong about that So the court said that that person should be able to sue another one bystander was injured as a result of a high speed chase and Reckless what they claimed was reckless driving and that officer was not entitled to immunity Next please or that may be it. Oh, here's here's a page where they're granted So these are cases where the officer asserted the defense of qualified qualified immunity said Hey, you can't bring a suit against me. You need to let me out at the beginning And this was and and at this stage of the litigation The plaintiff every allegation they make in the complaint has to be believed and assumed true by the court The first case involved an officer who was investigating a harassment case And um, it's a tragic story where the complainant was murdered by the harasser But there was no evidence of bad faith by the officer. So the court granted them immunity Another a mother sued after she was threatened with arrest for failing to follow court orders The third case involved somebody who uh, was asked if they could be searched They agreed to the search They later regretted it and sued the officer and the court said A reasonable officer would be right to think if he asked to search your car and you say yes that that would not be violating your your rights The the the next one. I think is my favorite It was a person who was issued a warning by a game warden. So the game warden gave him a warning and said Um, I'm not going to issue you a ticket But you violated these game regulations and the person turned around and sued because the game warden did not include His excuse for violating the regulation on the ticket The next one A person brought a gun into a police barracks and there's a law that prohibits bringing firearms into a state institution and the court said That police officer is entitled to to qualified immunity And that's a that's an overview of qualified immunity in vermont terrific so this is a subject that This is a subject that is in the news a lot and something that we hear a lot of vermont politicians talking about especially in the last two years But from what you had presented before, you know 12 cases have made it to the vermont supreme court and it doesn't appear that it the The tool of qualified immunity is actually being abused in any way It seems that the courts are actually fulfilling their obligation to keep it in check and really evaluate it on a case by case basis so What would be the incentive or the push to to eliminate it all together because then you're You're Turning these these officers into You know that they they have to answer to it, but they aren't able to their hands are tied They don't have the ability to offer an appropriate defense if you're striking the ability to have that kind of defense. So what um Why would they do this? Yeah, why would they why would they go about doing this? It doesn't it doesn't make sense. I don't know how many people here have been through a lawsuit and accused of doing things Um improperly accused of violating somebody's constitutional rights But it's incredibly incredibly stressful And then they want to add on to that the idea that the person would be personally liable for $25,000 It's it is it's unfathomable to me that they would try to open Our law enforcement officers to that kind of liability And I guarantee they talk about burlington having trouble recruiting officers If they pass this law Every single police department in vermont will will probably drain itself of of any sort of talent And they'll never be able to recruit somebody to serve and serve as a police officer in the state Okay, thank you sure Chris I can weigh in on that You know this this discussion is focused on law enforcement and immunity But this immunity that we're talking about here Applies to almost every if not all government official So, you know, uh the immunity that we're talking about being sued Applies to your town clerk your zoning administrator your mayor all of the people that Work in government. It's not just the police And for them to single out a single profession And One isn't right Uh, to probably I don't know if it's legal, but uh, I can tell you that this Discussion from my end of it and from what I've heard From law enforcement people is that if the state of vermont Does that You will see an exodus from law enforcement Probably comparable to what you're seeing here in burlington But on a statewide level And What I will tell you is You will hear some people tell you well colorado does it And this place does it and there's a quick fix that the police can go out and take out an insurance policy and That city can pay the policy or the officer can And then it's only a couple hundred bucks a year Well, I I don't know if that's the case and if it is it'll probably last for a little bit Until the insurance companies get paying out more than what they should And my question is let's say that this were to be the case What happens when you off end up with an officer that Is sued and the insurance company decides to settle the claim Because it's more advantage advantageous to them financially And all of a sudden that officer is not able to obtain the kind of insurance that they need Now you're saddled with an officer that can't be insured, but he's still an employee The cities and towns are going to be on the hook for this Don't be fooled by what they're playing games here bottom line is They're going to go after the deep pockets And this is just the first step of making that a lot easier The officers just happen to be in the way Can I just add I I agree with everything that's been said, but I will also say That the very legislators that want to take qualified immunity away from the police Enjoy it for themselves Anybody think a legislators ever made a bad decision? Well, they can't be sued for those decisions and when they pass when they write these laws to take away Qualified immunity for the police. They specifically say nothing about this is meant to get rid of our legislative immunity I actually that's a great point and I was I was going to make a similar point And if you don't mind I'll slipstream behind that Whenever I do public records requests to state legislators They always assert their immunity from the laws that they make the rest of us abide by They always do it. It's right in the the second paragraph right after they acknowledge having received their request Okay This is a really fascinating subject and it is always always interesting how Some of the loudest voices talking about reforms are always quick to make sure that it's that it's not there's taken away Fascinating This will bring us to our perfect our next subject, which is providing law enforcement And prosecutors appropriate tools through legislative action and and with that, um miss no one Thank you for Christopher and thank you and thank you to keep vermont safe for having me It's an honor to be invited and I can't thank you enough for doing this Things are worse than they have ever been in burlington. Let's just call a spade a spade It has never been this bad and the trends are terrifying I grew up in westford vermont northern chitlin county. One of the most fun things we did as kids is come to burlington Walk around on church street in and out of the shops Every day I hear parents tell me they would never let their teenagers walk on church street anymore And it's worse than that the parents themselves say I just don't go to burlington anymore And our beautiful city we can't have this and so But I want to be here tonight with a message of hope Because at six o'clock on a friday night when I see this many people come together By the way from different backgrounds because I can see people from different backgrounds and different viewpoints in this room I have tremendous hope. We're not giving up. We're going to turn this around So Really appreciate you all being here tonight Um So how do what are the tools we need? Well, the first the first thing we need to do is get our head count back up in Certainly in the burlington police department, but also in the state police It is frightening how depleted the state police is and of course the state police Supports local law enforcement They're having a much harder time doing it these days because their numbers are so far down and They made a statement recently that I know I would never would have heard them say a few years ago Which is that please local law enforcement don't call us unless it's a last resort That's not something they ever would have said in 2019 or even 2020 when I was u.s. Attorney They were eager to support local law enforcement, but everybody's so depleted in the ranks Um that they can't collaborate in the ways they used to We must have funded police departments Uh the decision to defund the police has caused extraordinary damage. It's the reason we're sitting here tonight I have heard that the city council is taking steps to reverse the decision But the extraordinary damage has already been done. I I keep they I hope they keep I hope they keep heading in the right direction, but the damage has been done and it's why we're sitting here tonight So we need to uh, we need to fund the police They need to feel supported I noticed in the government the governor's 10 point plan for public safety Which I applaud him for putting out. I think it was a good roadmap and it's good to have a roadmap in writing Um We need to he he noted that we could bring back retirees people who left the police force They retired early because they didn't feel supported They're going to need some incentives to come back and the first thing they're going to need is people in leadership Regular citizens community leaders supporting them. They're not going to come back if they don't feel supported I just spoke. Uh, I was honored and privileged to speak at the peace officer's memorial ceremony in pittsburgh Earlier today just came from pittsburgh. This is the ceremony to honor fallen officers And there were police officers and family and loved ones crying at that ceremony today and Please support your police officers. We have two excellent ones in the room today. Um I worked with i've worked with both of them. They're tremendous Give them a hug thank them when you see them wave to them when they go by in their cruiser If you're a prayer pray for them They're wonderful people we need to get them we need to get our head counts back up so that they can apprehend criminals Prevent crime and bring consequences to offenders Another reason we need full staffing for police departments is because of special investigative units So all of the departments have specialty units sexual assault units drug units major crimes units Certainly, I did a lot of work with the drug unit at the berlington police department and people like Then detective shunet They do wonderful work But when their head counts down they have to pull people out of those specialty units So when you see rise in drug trafficking and overdose death Remember that that's because the police are down head count and people are being pulled off of those specialty units This is true in the state police too, which supports the berlington police and local police departments the state police drug task force has been drastically depleted As has their major crimes unit and their basic crimes unit Drastically depleted because they have to pull people out of these specialty units because their head count is down. So It's another reason and then a final reason is task forces task forces What I mean by that is local police will Send somebody to be embedded with one of the federal agencies like dea or atf Or hsi or fbi and they'll sit with those federal agents every day and the reason for this is The local police have the intel about who the bad actors are who the recidivists are Who needs to be focused on by the feds and the local police? Start the case on the ground and work it up with the feds But and the same is true as state police the state police send these task force officers too but what's happening is That the state police and the local police are pulling their people off these task forces Because they don't have enough people to do the basic work So the coordination that's also mentioned in the governor's ten point plan We need to coordinate federal state and local law enforcement is suffering very badly because of the police being defunded And demoralized and not feeling supported and leaving the state or retiring early I don't know why my microphone's buzzing, but we'll get Closer. Okay. Okay. Can I can you can't hear me? Okay. Okay Well, hopefully you didn't miss all my talk about task forces and special investigative units Last thing i'll say before moving to the next topic is Mental health services treatment and prevention efforts I've talked to law enforcement officers for years and why they want support and they know we have to enforce the law And hold criminals accountable. They say we can't do it alone. We need to get people into treatment We need to prevent young people from using drugs in the first place We need to we need to do violence prevention efforts get into communities and start early with young people on violence prevention Um, so it has to be a holistic approach and law enforcement will be the first ones to tell you We're not social workers. We're not mental health counselors. We're not drug treatment providers We need help from these communities and we all need to be working together and supporting each other Next next i'll mention technology technology is a force multiplier When the police have uh are equipped with the latest and greatest law enforcement technology They can do more work more efficiently. So one of the things that comes to mind immediately is forensics computer and cell phone forensics Every police department in the state needs people who are trained on the cell bright machine Cell bright machine is a machine that reads the phones dumps the data dumps the data from the computers We need people trained on the cell bright machine And we need funding for cell bright machines in every state And there are other ways to search computers and phones that we need in every department in vermont when I was a prosecutor A line assistant before I was us attorney I did cases where we had to ship phones out of state for somebody to search them because we didn't have the capabilities in vermont And let me tell you these phones Are prosecutors dream The people that store a lot of stuff in their phone and you can prove a case very quickly With the contents of a phone or a computer People just don't they forget to delete things. Um, and let's not remind them to I'll be reviewing my own phone tonight So, so we need we need people trained in Computer and phone forensics, and we need cell bright machines in every department in vermont and Ballistics training and capabilities analysis capabilities. I had a case as an assistant u.s. Attorney where The crucial to proving the case was matching the bullet with the weapon which was discovered fortuitously And we need people trained on a ballistics analysis The atf will support local law enforcement on this But it would be great to have local law enforcement with these capabilities in house Next i'll talk about updating the laws uh to reflect reflect the reality on the ground As u.s. Attorney I testified before the united states senate judiciary committee on fentanyl penalties Uh, fentanyl is the drug that is killing over, you know, nearly a hundred thousand americans a year and you know over 200 vermonters a year they're about As of late it is incredibly deadly Uh, as of right now and two milligrams of fentanyl, which is the size of two grains of salt will kill the average person So so very takes very little fentanyl for someone to overdose and die think about two grains of salt Right now a federal prosecutor can't charge a five year Mandatory minimum a five year sentence unless they have 40 grams of fentanyl that they can prove Now that is 20 000 lethal doses Fentanyl does when it reaches a consumer state like vermont a consumption state like vermont It's the end of the line It's usually in fairly small quantities because it doesn't take a lot to get high And it doesn't take a lot for the drug dealer to make money and they're usually selling other drugs like crack cocaine or sadly methamphetamine these days I am not saying everyone should get a five year jail sentence, but prosecutors ought to be able to charge something more than zero Based on less than 20 000 lethal doses and I asked the united states senate to fix that In 2018 and i'm still waiting um And then the other uh the other troubling thing is There are things called fentanyl analogs, which are are usually deadlier than fentanyl things like car fentanyl That are a hundred times can be a hundred times more deadly than fentanyl Congress has failed to permanently list Fentanyl analogs as a as a controlled substance And this is the other thing I asked them to do when I testified as u.s attorney I don't understand it Um and the dea has to emergency schedule them every year we go through The process of wondering whether congress will extend the temporary scheduling just get them scheduled They're deadlier than fentanyl. There's absolutely no reason that they're not scheduled now and there should be no partisanship about this issue So i'll go on to and i'm not going to talk about the analog act because that's a little wonky But if we want to talk about it in q&a we can The analog act is what you would have to use if the fentanyl analogs weren't scheduled and it's incredibly cumbersome And it would slow down law enforcement and prosecutors State laws our bail system is Not working in vermont that it is a catch and release system It's there's no one person or set of people to blame judges have to make the right decisions prosecutors have to ask For the right things when it comes to bail But what I would like to see is bail reform true bail reform in vermont to mirror the federal system in the federal system There is no money in it and I like that now if all you have is cash bail as a prosecutor you have to use it But in the federal system you walk into court if you can show a judge that a person is a risk of flight Or a danger to the community they go to jail There's no money involved and they wait for their trial And that's the way I think it should be in the state level Get the money out of it if there are risk of flight or danger to the community And it has to be written that danger to the community can be showed just by the nature of the offense So I had somebody held pending trial because I had strong evidence that he shot another person and killed them He had no prior record. He was young family support But you could still get somebody held in the federal system just based on the nature of the offense The other thing is for state laws. This was just in the news. I think in the vermont digger They there is a need To do something about the gap Where somebody is found not guilty by reason of insanity And by the way that determination needs to be found by a jury not guilty by reason of insanity And if they're found not guilty by reason of insanity, they shouldn't just go out on the streets in the federal system That's not what happens somebody can be found not guilty by reason of insanity But that they go into a facility a secure facility an inpatient facility where they're treated until they're better And that is the humane thing to do and that is the right public safety approach And it's same for those who are found incompetent to stand trial They need to be treated in the same facility Maybe a different wing until they're competent to stand trial Um The next topic I want to have to talk about is um, let's not have um, see the next uh, uh, let's uh, let's I'm asking for state legislators and local, uh, city counselors Burlington city council included I understand you may be acting in good faith and you may be doing your best But too much of what you're doing is counterproductive and it's undermining law enforcement And I I don't I want I want us to start listening to each other and just Acknowledging people of good faith can disagree But what you're doing everything to everything that comes out on criminal justice seems undermining and counterproductive to me There is a move to open drug injection facilities. Um, it's been going on for years. I've been talking about it for years Um, we are not going to solve the drug crisis anywhere Including in Burlington by giving people a place to inject fentanyl Fentanyl analogs methamphetamine crack cocaine they use all the drugs at these and then send them on their way They don't get into treatment when they go to these there's because there's this idea you don't judge and I'm not into stigma and judgment But this will not work They had to close one of these in san francisco because it doesn't work And so I would ask that we focus on treatment and prevention preventing young people from using not telling them It's okay to use not giving them a place to use preventing them from using and getting people into treatment I don't believe in charging everybody. I would rather see prevention work and treatment work. Am I going on too long? Okay So so let's not let's stop with that Let's please I would I would urge us to stop with decriminalization movement of drugs And and legalization of drugs The simple truth is if you decriminalize and legalize drugs more people are going to use them That's why more people use alcohol and cigarettes than they do drugs If you think about how deadly fentanyl is if you think about how deadly heroin oxycodone all these drugs I I can't understand why there would be a movement to legalize them That doesn't mean we don't get people into treatment and work toward treatment when they are using Another thing that's going on is a movement to Uh legalize prostitution that is the last thing burlington needs I I prosecuted a case. I oversaw the prosecution of one of the worst human traffickers Uh in in history of the country as u.s. Attorney He was forcing young drug addicted women including some children into prostitution One of the tools law enforcement can get used to get to horrible people like that He's doing 25 years in jail. He horribly abused these people One of the critical tools that law enforcement needs To investigate the people who do this is to be able to investigate prostitution That's how you get to the human traffickers But more than that there's one of the critical ways to search hotel rooms to search back page Pages you can't do that unless prostitution is a crime But we're also going to attract human traffickers to vermont And more women are going to be raped and abused in prostitution context if this is legal because the Abuser is just going to say well it was legal transaction So I I urge us to really think about this and not move in this direction The last thing i'll mention on on uh the legislative front is expungement We are very concerned about people possessing guns who should not possess them But when you expunge convictions and seal Juvenile records the relevant information doesn't get into the background checks so I think again while this may feel like a well-meaning movement What's happening is people are are possessing guns who shouldn't And sometimes to tragic consequence And law enforcement is going into situations where they don't know the criminal record of the person the true criminal record of the person That they're going to be interacting with And employers are hiring people and they have no idea what their background is I you know I would think if I was in medical care for example and somebody had diverted oxycodone once before you might not want to hire them You know to be around oxycodone now. Maybe you would give them a second chance I actually encourage employers to do that, but they ought to have the relevant information and You know I could go on a little you okay, okay The state court the state court system I always feel like I talked too long the state court system needs to get back and working again I know that there are people trying on this front But the state court system appears to be behind Every other sector every other kind of walk of life When it when it comes to being fully post covet up and running and so cases aren't getting tried This isn't fair to the defendant by the way any more than it is to the community There are people out on the streets who are supposed to be going through the state criminal justice process And they're not the state courts are just not fully up and running And so I would I would say that and the governor mentioned this in his 10-point plan as well I would say that the state court system does more far more essential work than The movie theater the beauty parlor or the grocery store. Well, the grocery store is pretty important, but But the criminal justice system should not be last in and moving forward post coven And then finally the attorney general's office. I would encourage the attorney general's office and the the next attorney general to Start start charging drug cases drug trafficking cases and the way you do this The attorney general's office Can they can charge any state crime? So they need to I would encourage them to start working with the chitin county state's attorney's office and the burlington police And any other hot spot for drug trafficking in vermont and gun violence in vermont and start taking some of these cases Start taking them to the attorney general's office and prosecuting them there And certainly burlington. I think could use some special help and special treatment from the attorney general's office. So That's all I had Thank you. Thank you. Ms. Nolan. I actually have a couple of questions if that's okay. Um, Let's start here. So Regarding staffing levels and task forces Due to the lack of officers available for tax task forces Does has that resulted in a decline in federal prosecutions? Well, you would have to ask the united states attorney, but I can't imagine that it's it's helping them prosecute cases The so so many of the wonderful cases we did did not start with the federal agencies They started at the local level and then the feds got interested. Um, and then they started collaborating The feds have investigative capabilities that the locals certainly don't have um, and when they work together it is it is You know the best you can the best you can have in law enforcement is when the feds and the locals work together So when you don't have that local officer embedded with the with the dea You're not going to do the caliber of drug cases in in burlington that you should be doing Terrific and so a follow-up question to your your comments on bail reform how I understand that you made a point that we should reform so that way it's um There the individual is held if they are a flight risk or a threat to themselves or the community Um, would we should we also consider working out a plan for court diversion? especially when cases of of drug addiction and how You know addictions terrible and it affects everybody from every walk of life from every socioeconomic background and from The entire political spectrum would we need to put in more institutions or have more support structures in the state through treatment facilities inpatient Expanded halfway houses So that way we could have a more robust probationary system That is there to support and and and help people up as opposed to just Leaving them out the way that we have now you did mention that we have a this this catch and release program and that I personally find that to be Absolutely inhumane. I mean the person who suffers from addiction is absolutely suffering They suffer daily. They suffer sometimes hourly from it and and To allow them or just tolerate them being able to use and continue to abuse themselves in the community That they're in without and being able to be there as a community to offer support and the the pathway to Personal redemption Yeah, I mean the answer is yes. We need we need an all of the above approach We need to give prosecutors all the tools available Some of the proudest cases I did were the cases where I said I don't think jail time is necessary here And I think this person's crime, you know, maybe it was a first time crime It was fueled by addiction and what they really need is a second chance in treatment And I believe in that but you have to have the resources to do it One of the cases that comes to mind a man. I prosecuted for Very serious gun trafficking and drug trafficking crimes He got treatment and he's six years sober and we're friends now And and he he credits while he credits being prosecuted and you know, thanks me for that which I find Remarkable and humbling But he also went to a nine month inpatient treatment program and I had to go to New Hampshire to go to that I think valley vista does a wonderful job. I've toured valley vista I know people who work there, but the program is short and some people need Longer-term options. So I think we do need those options in Vermont. I think the state system needs probation with real teeth I'll tell you the federal probation officers. You don't get anything past them. And if you're not complying They'll give you some chances. They'll work with you But at the end of the day, if you're not willing to work with them, you will go back. You will go to jail in a wait trial There are actually a number of state laws that prohibit sober houses and other Opportunities to build communities for people to get sober be sober or stay sober So there is actually there there were some folks who were trying to push to have those regulations overturned But we do have shocking, right? I think many of you hear me talk about this all the time government is often the problem Where there is this idea, right? There's laws in place in theory to protect people However, you're protecting them so well that they're just living on the street instead and that can't be a solution It's it's a real shame We we in burlington had a halfway house closed down last year and I personally know many people who have benefited from the structured environment of Of halfway houses to help them rebuild their lives after coming out of addiction and to not have that to just Say go do you? Well, that's what christina said valley vista is only a two-week program. So if you're a heroin addict And your whole family is addicts dealers criminals and whatever which oftentimes is the case Do you think that you're just gonna like dry out for two weeks get out and be fine? No, it doesn't work that way and and I do credit You know a lot of why when I got out of prison I had a place to go that was safe. I had a family that loved me They were kind of tired of my nonsense But they still loved me and but there are some people that I was in prison with that had no family Or their entire family were literally criminals. And so if we say Okay, well then now your your your halfway house is basically on the street go figure it out and then we're confused or surprised that they have Unfortunate circumstances with police officers or with other members of the community You know, we we don't get to make poor decisions like that and then be surprised by the outcome This will bring us to our oh perfect. You're already there. Thank you, sir This brings us to our fourth panel, which is how is law and order being restored in other states? And so this is open for all of us to really kind of try them in We hear a lot of talk about the cahoots model and how important it is to try and Take some of the pressure off the backs of law enforcement that they That they should not be responsible for dealing with everything that they have to deal with during the course of their day today and one of the best ways to do that would be to have Social workers or or community service officers to actually try and do more street outreach and try and connect with people What are your opinions on the cahoots model that's being employed in? Uh, I believe Eugene, oregon. Is that It's in oregon, correct? I don't know those kind of programs sound good and they're really effective I can think of a couple of cases where Uh, we had something similar to that in bennington county for a period of time but the problem with those kind of models is typically they start them up they're funded and operated by a very small staff and although effective they Generally were on monday through friday eight to four thirty And that's not when they're needed necessarily You know, you're talking about employing these folks out into the field to work with law enforcement They need to be available 24 7 365 Because there's a lot of good resources out there But they're only available During specific hours and days of the week And you know, unfortunately, that's not when some of these crises Take place most of them are on a saturday afternoon at four o'clock And there's nobody available And you know, I know you folks in the northern part of the state here are a little better positioned with like the howard center in some of those places But I can tell you like in bennington county Come friday afternoon at four thirty or Any day of the week at four thirty You're kind of going to be out of luck getting ahold of anyone from mental health services or whatever So then what happens is we resort to You know, taking them to the hospital, which typically they're not staffed Or equipped to deal with a lot of these situations And then what happens is The police agency and i'm talking from my own experience ends up with an officer Tied up with this individual at an er center or something like that For several hours if not longer And they're very good programs. I don't get me wrong But they i'm sure they cost money They need to be implemented, but they have to be done on a 24 7 365 basis You also will hear from nurses and staff in the er Or at the mental health facility at uvm. They have to get My understanding is they have to get a judge To order medication if a person is having a mental break So if somebody goes in we saw the chart at the beginning, right? A lot of these incidences are happening overnight on a saturday or sunday And if you have to wait for a judge to be able to give medication to sedate someone who's having a psychic break So our er nurses are being assaulted and having to assault these people to Restrain them and then sometimes wait for a day or more to get permission from the judge to to sedate them Yeah, it's very inhumane Well, I think if if I could erica, you know one of the things the state talks And our legislature they talk a good Story about the things that they're going to do And they're going to create peds for mental health Reasons and those kind of things and you know, quite frankly since waterberry since the hospital There after iran was flooded and out of commission They really haven't done a heck of a lot And they really the bottom line is they don't have any place to put these people for the most part So It's been my experience what happens we run them to the er They get maybe hospitalized for a few days. They get Given drugs They get kicked out the door Things go well until they feel good again and don't take their medication and then We're right back to phase one No follow-up. No continuation of treatment or Assistance beyond that crisis. Yeah, I just want to quickly Piggy back on that the er cannot take the place of inpatient mental health care. Um, that is unconscionable In particular, I think about our youths our adolescents There's only one place for them to go inpatient vermont. That's a brother borough retreat And they've had their covet issues They've had their staffing issues They only have so many beds and you have children sitting in the emergency room who are in acute mental health crisis If we're going to spend some money, let's make sure we're taking care of our kids. Yes Yeah, I um, it's it's constantly heartbreaking to hear about How we have a mental health crisis in the state in the especially in the last few years and yet We have not seen monies allocated to open up new facilities and ensure that there's new treatment. Uh, it's It it's it's truly upsetting. So this brings me to um expansion of drug courts And we're talking about what are other states doing to try and restore law and order What are other states doing when it comes to to dealing with this Epidemic of addiction that's flooding across the Coming across the nation or the mental health crisis. What are other states doing it? And and I understand like Probably number one of each one of your answers would be we need to open up a new facility But in addition to that if that's the baseline, where would you like us to go with this? What are your recommendations because addiction like we said it probably has touched every single person in this room In one way or another. How can we get ahead of this or at least stop trying being behind it? I guess what what jumps immediately to mind is prevention efforts Certainly when it comes to young people But of course people of all ages If we can get to young people, especially with a message of hope Young people struggle more than we know. It's just it's just the truth It's just not easy to be a young person these days school's not easy the internet's not easy Kids aren't always good to each other and they turn to drugs And so we have to get to them with a message of why this is not a good decision Um, it's I don't think fear tactics really work these days I think what I did was bring my friend Justin who I mentioned Two kids and have him talk about his story and it has to be a message of hope If you're struggling, you know in inner and your inner self Or if you've already turned to drugs, you know somebody that has There are There is hope there's treatment. There's support. There are people who want to help you We all have to remember this in our interactions with addicted people Every interaction that we have can change somebody's life And we need to treat each other well and extend our hand to people Does it mean we don't hold them accountable? That's part of loving somebody But we also need to remember that Every interaction we have can change the course of somebody's life And then the other message of course needs to be It's don't try these don't try An opioid in the first place Whatever you think whatever immediate gratification gratification you think you're going to get You can lose your whole life your freedom your future So I think and the governor has has has done a good job working on this I sat on his opioid coordination council, which became a substance use prevention council Everybody from every walk of life came together To talk about how we could get to our use and to everybody with a message of prevention You know law enforcement doesn't want to arrest people. Nobody wants people in jail We'd rather have people not turn to drugs and then to violence and then to theft in the first place So I think um a focus on prevention would be important Thank you. I um Yeah, this is a difficult subject it's It's heartbreaking at times and it's really troublesome and You know, I think that one of the reasons we've come together today was to talk about Not just the problems that we're facing as a community, but where do we move from here and uh Just like the topic of your panel suggested A lot of these Could be legislative fixes. We tend to have um Issues when it comes to what the law states and how that kind of hamstrings us at times and Truth be told if we want bail reform If we want to make it so that way we change the way in the nature of the catch and release program in the state So that way we have something that is Um holding an individual that is a threat to themselves or others and not just a flight risk Now is the time because we do have an election coming up in november And there are a lot of candidates out there that are asking for your vote So and they're having events, you know, not necessarily like this But maybe they are having community events in your town Go to them and raise your hand and ask questions and ask them Please what are you going to do on day one to restore public safety because this isn't just a burlington problem We might be the red center of the bullseye on this but There are staffing issues and and public safety issues all around vermont in every municipality So we are not alone here. We might be the worst-case scenario at this point But it's it's all upon you and one of the reasons why we decided to hold these These um discussions was one to impart wisdom but two to try to Impress upon you the importance of reaching out and asking all these candidates that are out there right now Asking for your vote for the vermont state house Ask them what they're going to do to restore public safety to support the police and to support your communities Take it even farther ask them. When are you going to show up and repeal? Whatever regulations are stopping new drug treatment facilities from coming into the state? Ask them it's the perfect time to do it because They want your vote and there are lots of other people in the room so and people when I talk to people You know the chinton county states attorney has a lot of power over what she and her department decide to prosecute People did not know that that is an elected office People did not know that that was something that we vote for And so I don't know if we can if we can do an effective write-in campaign by november, but um, you know, this is Your vote matters elections Matter and so the next time you talk to somebody and they tell you don't they don't vote because it doesn't matter You let especially if they live in chinton county You can say well Just so you know you not voting and you not participating in your own self-governance Is contributing to things being unsafe and the rise in murders and drug trafficking and everything else Like lives are actually on the line With your ballot this november and and I want to make sure people understand that and take it seriously Thank you. Thank you. We're actually going to open it up right now to the audience questions. So if anybody Eric, I'll be right over Make sure you talk right into the microphone so we can all hear you This is probably a dumb question, but um, are there ways to have treatment In the prison system, I mean it's you know, they have the time And can they is there any is that something that's current or is that something that could be done? Because there you have a facility and a bunch of people with time and then it would behoove the Judges and whatnot to get people into jail if they had a successful system within the prison system Is that possible and is that something that can be done? past a lot to give um drug users alcohol and heavier drugs Drugs like methadone while they're imprisoned Great We're gonna wean them off of said drugs slowly right to get them so that they're No, they never get weaned off Does anybody want to talk about um medically assisted treatment or treatment while incarcerated? Um treat on treatment while incarcerated that is an excellent question And there is some of that um northwest has an excellent program that uh judge christina rice And worked with uvm to uh federal she's a federal judge worked with uvm to lead the way in rolling out up in St. Albans up at northwest and um, I absolutely think that we should be giving people So people can avail themselves of anger management treatment mental health counseling drug treatment while in jail Um, and I think we need to uh see that model spread throughout the state. I had a defendant once Uh drug trafficking defendant. He cooperated when he was he was housed in Uh springfield massachusetts before he came to vermont in springfield massachusetts He was getting all kinds of programming Um when he got to vermont, he was doing nothing all day and he told me and this was someone who Sincerely wanted to improve, you know and be better and and get a second chance He told me he missed being in massachusetts because he could he could do things That he wanted to do to try to make get ready for life outside I mean, let's not forget these people are coming back to us most of them and if we can get them Help and resources while in prison Sure, right I totally agree Yeah, it's another tool that we need medically assisted treatment. I think it works for some people. I think it and I think some people Uh prefer the AA model and uh The abstinence model. I've always said let's not let's not um have a fight in the treatment community If people can get well my friend justin who's six years sober. He started on medically assisted treatment I believe it works for people. I believe we need an all above all of the above approach uh to treatment And I will say another another reason why to be thoughtful about uh voting They shut down all of the services in the prisons because of kovat So no meetings could go in no bible studies all of the things that give people hope and help them get well Uh, they're just barely some of them starting to come back So so there and then in winsor they did have a work facility, but vermont does not want to fund Uh incarceration they don't want to fund uh rehabilitation in that way. So so we're prioritizing we're putting money other places Chris, I'm sorry. Ms. Nolan There's um medically assisted treatment is is helpful for some people that are suffering through opioid addiction But there is no medically assisted treatment For methamphetamine addiction. Is there it's absolutely true and that's why I worry about um the rise of meth in burlington Which if you look at burlington police data We're seeing a big increase As I understand it in seizures of meth. I don't know if it's from vermont state police or burlington police But when I was in my Time as u.s. Attorney over the years steadily we saw an increase in meth seizures in vermont Meth is such a destructive drug It makes people violent. They go into psychosis hallucinations. They don't sleep for days They abandon their families. They don't eat It's a terrible terrible drug and there is no medically assisted treatment For it and I do want to emphasize though medically assisted is the key word We don't just have the drug and people taking the drug You need wraparound services Regular visits with a doctor regular drug testing counseling vocational help It's not just you take a pill and go on your way. It's medically assisted treatment Thank you. Um, I have a question for eric. Are you mentioned that you were in winsor? um If you could just give me an idea because I don't know what the program was for you and um To someone else's point about treatment and learning at trade. I talked to bill huff who was in a debate in a previous uh race Political race and he said it after a debate someone who was an inmate at winsor Approached him after the debate and begged him if he got elected to please reopen it because he did learn a trade And he was being a productive member of society like you mentioned So it was working and it needs to get put back into service Yeah, winsor was a Originally a working farm actually so this was before I got there But previously they were people were made to work on the farm. They had to feed themselves They had to do the whole thing. So when I was there a lot of that had already been closed down But there was uh like vermont works for women or something like that. They were teaching a construction trade They were making uh road signs and all of that other stuff. There was bible study. There was 12 step groups There was whatever you wanted if you wanted help you could get it Um now and now the thing to remember too is it's all voluntary, right? So so there are programs at north. Uh, what is it northwestern? You said in st. Albans There are probably programs, but you have to elect to be into them So they can't force inmates to participate and get well So as an example just for everybody's sake anybody who tells you that women should be Decarcerated the question that I've asked I my cellmates were in for murder and attempted murder Which of those people should not have been incarcerated? I I'm I'm sincere and and unfortunately part of the issue is that the way our facilities are set up Everybody it didn't matter if you were violent or nonviolent everybody was kind of wrapped up together So it's just it's been a problem. We were overcrowded. There was only supposed to be two people per cell and we had five So now I don't know if that's still the same, you know, that was Seventeen seventeen years ago. So, uh, you know, I don't know what the circumstances are in st. Albans But they don't even want to let people in there There was not that option then. I don't know if there currently is Michael bolowski with two north reports. Um, this question can be for anyone on the panel or yourself There was a recent wall street journal commentary by the mayor of, uh, maryland larry hogan That he was writing mostly about the west coast and washington state and Oregon, but his idea was to fix cities across the country where Maybe their beliefs resulted in them and engaging in the defund movement and doing what burlington did in so many cities did They governors can use the state police as we saw here somewhat already to alleviate those cities And that's what apparently he did during 2020 when a lot of the other major cities in the country were burning or getting looted And I think it was the mayor of baltimore He wrote had instructed his police to stand down and let these riots continue And he said no way and he got the national guard and the state police to go into baltimore And prevent what happened in much the rest of the country During this was like that tough stretch in 2020 So I guess my question is do you think we should utilize this more? I know the governor already had state police here Already this year, but is this a way to continue? I would say state police or the vermont guard vermont national guard even Could either of those be utilized? Well, I think you're talking about governor larry hogan from maryland And the mayor of baltimore had said that she wanted to let the rioters Go ahead and riot and get it out of their systems and he said that wasn't going to happen Um I think christina Touched on it earlier talking about how There are other there are other state resources available and the attorney general of vermont has authority The same authority that every state's attorney has so the The new attorney general could Could divert some of their resources that they've now devoted to some of the some other things that may should have Maybe should have less priority and then put a task force on prosecuting drug crimes throughout the state And assist these states attorneys that are clearly overwhelmed I mean the the state police is Historically and still is available to assist local departments The problem is their headcount is down so much that they're not able to do it in the ways they used to Um, but they they have been here in burlington because there is so much violence And it feels like there's a shooting a day in burlington. I know there's not I know it's not that frequent But we're hearing about them all the time and the state police is supporting where they can But they are stretched very very thinly And the attorney general's office can uh prosecute any case In burlington or any uh in chitlin county or any other county And I think it's a good idea for the attorney general to look at Adding into the triage violent crime gun crime and drug trafficking My take on that is that vermont is very unique in the sense that first of all the state police Was created 75 years ago in the state of vermont Based upon a failure of The bennington county sheriff's department being able to Deal with the paula wilden case that were bennington college student went missing and that sparked An outcry for a better organized law enforcement team from the state for the state of vermont And that was instrumental in the creation of the vermont state police But that being said one of the things that is Is that model I don't think is feasible or even plausible to be thought of In the state of vermont because we have over 240 towns In vermont and almost every one of these towns Operates independently has its own school board select board We're not a state where you have county government Or some other mechanism where you have a larger cohesive Group of towns that are governed by a larger body And vermont it's either local local or state level And as far as the policing goes, you know, everybody talks about community policing and how the police need to get back to basics Well, I can tell you that Most municipal and city police have been doing community policing since their since their creation and Not anything in contrast to the state police, but there's something to be said About having a law enforcement presence Where the people that work for that law enforcement agency Live in their communities their kids go to school in those communities and they have a communal connection to the community And that's why in places like new york city and some of the areas Have problems because you're bringing in law enforcement officers from outside of the area to provide law enforcement services in an area where they don't live And they tend you tend to do things differently When you work under that kind of environment and i'm not suggesting That the officers do anything wrong, but it does take on a different Uh flavor so to speak if you are Actually living and and Running into these people that you're policing every day So You know, I don't think that that's going to solve the problem With that and number two is it doesn't make any difference. Whether it's the state police or burlington pd We have a recruitment issue So you're not going to be able to find these guys To fill these positions to begin with and You know, you may be able to dress things up by way of salary Benefits and that kind of package, but I can tell you Is somebody's spent my adult my entire adult life Doing this business the vast majority of these people doing police work Don't do it for the money They do it because they feel like they're adding something to their communities And when I say that You know, I would just put this out there to the general public and you can take this however you want Imagine waking up every morning whether you work in the grocery store For montete beer factory or or any other place for that matter And you woke up every morning knowing that the people that you work for at least that are elected To represent the people that you work for Don't appreciate you want to defund you and want to look at any opportunity they can To take your livelihood away from you Not much of an incentive to go there with a good attitude And you know, I think until we turn this attitude towards law enforcement around and You know, I'm not saying we should be kissing up or sucking up to the police But stop demonizing the profession based upon a few bad apples You know, I've said time and time again the people that are Defunding the police and wanting to do this and wanted to go after the police They're doing the very same thing that they're accusing the police up. They're taking one or two bad examples Of a police officer doing something whether it be the george floyd incident Or the trevon martin incident or any other incident around the country And you're trying to hold police officers here in burlington that have never done anything wrong That have come to work day after day Year after year and done a good job for you and you're demonizing them for something somebody else did And that's not fair And until that attitude changes You're not going to get the kind of people you want. Yes What I just heard him say was elections matter I I live in central vermont Out in a rural area and I wanted to let the folks in burlington know you are not alone when it comes to troubles with police protection Where I live we are a good half hour from three state police barracks and a little over a half an hour away from the sheriff's office in orange county and We cannot rely on any police protection matter of fact the gallus humoran where I live is that If you need to call the police remind them to bring along the The yellow tape and the body bags because by the time they get there this that's the only help they're going to be for us So, you know now we're all fairly well armed ourselves And we're probably the poster child for second amendment in the town that I live and I'm not identifying the town that is Anyway, so I that was just a statement my question is about heroin addiction and If there has been developed in a cure when I had my businesses in philadelphia I had several folks that had heroin issues that were being resolved with methadone and one Older fellow always came to mind and I always felt so sad He would come to work and he could only work for a few hours because then he had to go away to wherever he got his treatment and then come back and It was obvious that in some point in the past he was really You know good person a very intelligent person, but His heroin use had reduced him to a mere husk of a person and he would come in and he was very very Punctual it was very very, you know Interested in trying to do the modest job that he had But he had no capacity every day he would arrive and ask the same questions. Hi. I'm here What do you want me to do first and and his job was very menial and very routine And it just broke my heart And he there was no cure at that time that he just went and got his methadone Uh Treatment and that was all that his life was ever going to be has that improved at all since probably 15 years ago Hi, bro. How are you? Well, we go way back so Um, I mean you're sort of you're sort of known as well All right, um, I will I will say this I do think Look it's it uh, this is why I mentioned that if you're gonna have medically assisted treatment It needs to be under doctor supervision. Um, and it needs to be with wraparound services. Um It can't be just give a dose and hope for the best And I have seen in my experience. I've seen improvement. I've seen You know, people I'll keep bringing up my friend who was a defendant of mine He started out on buprenorphine. He uh, he also had inpatient care And he's he got to the point where he didn't need the medication anymore, but it took him it took him some years But he was working. Um, he got married. He's he's had a kid And I just don't think there's a one size fits all but I agree with you It needs to be a comprehensive approach that looks at the whole person and doesn't just dose them and send them on their way I I I personally And I this is this is a Controversial topic. I personally am against Uh buprenorphine suboxone any of that stuff people have to get away from it They have they have to be abstinent If we replace one addiction with just a legal doctor prescribed addiction, you're still an addict Uh, those medications are they mimic you being high They they create it's not exactly the same obviously But that is the point is to basically make it so that you don't get Uh withdrawals or cravings in the same way and that doesn't fix you that doesn't help you I can tell you for me personally That it was developing a relationship with a god of my understanding that helped me get and stay sober And it is the thing that helps me stay sober 13 years later today Until you get right In your mind what it is that has you in so much devastation and despair that you just have to check out from the world You're not going to get better And one substance I did that I was I was a I was a drug addict And so I was like, oh, I'll just quit doing drugs and I'll just drink because that because that's not my problem And it very quickly became my problem And so everything that I did even therapy and counseling and all of that stuff Nothing made a difference until I was willing to surrender my life and admit that I was powerless over my addiction Step one admit that I am powerless Step two become willing to believe in a power greater than yourself that can restore you to sanity Three become willing to make uh to to give your life over to that god for make a searching and fearless moral inventory of yourself Go make amends and apologize for everything that you've done wrong One of the biggest problems in our system right now because people are not being held accountable Is they never have to humble themselves and apologize for the things that they've done wrong And you carry around that guilt and that shame Every where you go and you can't let it go and no medically assisted Uh, whatever Can take away that internal struggle I don't know Other than a relationship with a creator. That's me personally anything if you don't get if you don't get god If you don't get a therapist if you don't get some way to figure it out why you're not Dealing with life well I don't know how you get better That's my personal did you have So question we have time for one more question. We could take one more question. Okay I'd like to just broach on three subjects real quick. Uh, I worked Not directly with howard center, but I worked with addicts that were going there. I worked jim bring the bring the microphone really close I'm sorry. Uh, I want to let everybody know that I worked I have worked with addicts that go to the howard center And I will tell you it's a band aid howard center is cashing in I lost two people in two years people who wanted to get better One of them was very close to me They hurt because I'm a caregiver I will tell you that howard center Just like america just said they are keeping people addicted I have seen it. They get 170 dollars per dose per patient They have a thousand patients per day at san remo. Just one of the sites 62 million dollars a year gross the howard center and the state are making And I know fathers and daughters. I know family members that don't get treatment. They get band aid And there's court orders saying if you screw up if you go back to doing drugs You're going back to jail and counselors at howard center say we're not going to tell anybody But guess what we're going to give you a half a dose today. So next time you come in you better be straight It's a band aid. They're keeping people addicted number one number two Mike hall and erica Where were you guys in july 2021? Remember my memorabilia Okay, I don't want to hear about how good phil scott is doing for the state Because what happened that day mike What happened? What were you there for and what happened that day? We we had a law enforcement rally. I organized a rally to support law enforcement the first time I met erica I asked mike to come and speak my father was a police officer And like mike was talking about with uh, mr. Floyd It's a terrible situation, but we didn't do it But I'm sitting on the couch with my wife one day in may and I said look I'm sick of this. They're attacking every law enforcement in america saying they're killing black people It's all a lie So we're gonna have a law enforcement rally to support good people. We had good stories. We had heroic stories We had a woman who was saved by an officer. She was being raped. She ran out of her door and into the arms of an officer And she got up and spoke And you know what happened BLM bused up people from massachusetts in connecticut An hour into a three-hour event. They took over our event Physically and verbally assaulting people With the capitol police the motelier police and the state police watching And I had worked for weeks because I was receiving email threats if I had this rally they were coming And I will tell you flat out gp is a good friend of mine from motelier Chief pete was just starting in motelier and the city council told him do not get involved. Do not do anything We don't want your first experience in motelier to be supporting law enforcement and protecting these people BLM has to have their voice That's how that started Phil scott saw a video the day after it happened and you know what he said We can never have a rally like this on the state house law again Because I was the biggest racist in the state because I wasn't sympathetic to george floyd My father was a cop. He was a good cop and I knew bad cops and I guess what they took care of each other There's a bad cop. They took him out. I'm not talking to kill somebody. They said you're gone. We don't want you here Yes, I do have a question. I'm sorry Actually another question. I have a statement erica Mentioned a little while ago is anybody going to run for state attorney in chitney county I'm going to run for chitney county state attorney I'm going to defeat sarah george in a writing campaign It's going to be a lot about coming out. We're going to be doing some videos. We're going to be doing a lot of meetings around people around chitney county And I'm going to take out sarah george Because sarah george isn't looking out for you And she didn't look out for my wife December 2019 my wife was struck by a drunk driver while she was snow blowing in our yard The four o'clock on a tuesday afternoon the guy's third offense hit and run 0.26 Sarah george gave him less than two days in jail No question I apologize if i'm out of place. I just want you to know that somebody cares and i'm standing up Thank you This was the first of a in a series of three Events that keep vermont safe will be hosting On public safety we I personally thank you all for coming tonight. I'd like to thank all the panelists for joining us this evening Keep vermont safe I'd like to thank my team with keep vermont safe. You guys were all fantastic This was a lot of work that and a lot of time went into this and we really appreciate I truly appreciate all the help that you put in Burlington city arts for allowing us the use of this space For our law enforcement personnel that showed up today to make sure that we were safe And to all of our guests in the audience tonight. Thank you for coming Please follow keep vermont safe online and Be on the lookout for one of our next upcoming events and you can always reach out to any one of us if you have any questions We're happy to connect you with Whatever we can thank you again Feel free to stay hang out mingle. Remember that this has been live streamed It's available on keep vermont safe.com and generally irritable on youtube share it share it with all your friends and family Let's keep the message out there