 Welcome to Toffy TV. It is the press box and I'm delighted to say I'm joined by Phil Mac. No, to use this chief football writer for the BBC. Great to have you, Phil. Thank you. You've been covering major side football for a very, very long time. Obviously you were at the echo before you joined the BBC. Twenty-two years ago? Twenty-two years ago, yeah. Twenty-three coming up in the summer, yeah. So you've seen a lot of changes, a lot going on. You said to me you covered your first game in 1987. That's right. February the 14th 1987 at the Mannerground in Oxford, which is ironic because I actually live in Oxford now and it was a one-all draw. Paul Wilkinson scored a last-minute equaliser and it was the season 11 in the league. So I started covering as he blamed me for the decline and only one trophy since. No, I think we might talk about where the decline started, but obviously they were the housing days for Everton. Did you cover around when Everton got the title? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Obviously at the time, I mean Everton and Liverpool were two great sides. Liverpool had won the double the season before. Everton then responded by winning the league of football that season. So yeah, it was a great side, full of great players, great characters as well. You know, you're thinking of people like Pat Van Den Hau and just all of them. But top-class players first and foremost. And obviously you've covered them into the Premier League area. How have you seen things change over the years, you know, with Everton in terms of starting in 87, going into the Premier League and where they are now? I think Howard Leven was a big thing and you look back on the job that Colin did now and you realise he did a good job. You know, he inherited a team that was maybe just on the decline and for two or three seasons like that, you know, you look back now and think Colin did really well. But then after that, the club lost their way a bit. One or two, the managerial appointments weren't great. You think of Mike Walker who came to Everton with a huge reputation for what he'd done in Orange City. And really, unfortunately for Mike, nice fella. But you could almost see right away, you didn't realise just how big the club was that he'd taken on. And then, you know, they just haven't quite got it right. There was that period of success under Joe. But they always seemed to struggle to get the right manager in. For Walter Smith, I really like Walter Smith as a manager and as a person. He worked under very difficult circumstances, which maybe people didn't quite realise at the time just how hard he was working to keep it all ticking over. Then, of course, went into the stability of the day of Moyes era and finished in five, six in the top ten a lot seasons. But since then, after one season of Roberto Martinez, which was very good, a good football finished fifth, really maybe should have finished fourth that season. It's just been instability from that day forward. And the instability started really, I suppose, when Farhad Meshiri bought into the club, because Liverpool, Everton and Begipard, was the model of stability. Since then, managerial change all the time, lots of money to spend which they didn't have before and lots of that money squandered, unfortunately. Yeah, but coming up to seven years of Farhad Meshiri, as you mentioned there before, well, certainly when David Moyes was in charge, the club was seen as the model. We look around at the moment and we talked about the likes of Brentford and Brighton and how well they are doing people point their finger, but for many years it was Everton who was seen as that. Do you think Farhad Meshiri coming in was when it all started falling to bits or had there been signs before that that the club was on shaky ground and it was actually David Moyes holding it together? I think it's interesting that in Roberto Martinez's first season, I think he was able to bring in his own style of play, but there was a lot of the David Moyes steel and the character in that side. You know, people like Silvan Distan, he was a top-class centre half, you know, people like Stephen Pinar was there, Phil Jacqui Elker, all those people, Leighton Bain, from the David Moyes era, he added two or three, you talk about James McCarthy, Gareth Barry, Romeluil Cark who'd been the big signing, but I felt the longer Roberto was there, the worse the team was getting, they were leaking goals in a way they'd never done before and I think it was in his final season, it was the worst home record in league history for Everton, so it maybe started to go wrong then, Meshiri arrived and I think for all the criticism Meshiri receives and lots of it is justified, I've done that you could accuse him of lacking ambition or determination to put his hand in his pocket, which was what Everton wanted when they were looking for this billionaire. It's just been the decision making that has been bad. You can't fault his ambition, you can't fault his willingness to spend to try and achieve his goals. It's just that so much of the decision making around managers and signings and appointments of director of football have just been poor. Do you think, you mentioned that, do you think that there's been a lot of mixed messages of who's in charge and who's running? Obviously he brought a director of football system in that, we're on to the third one now. Do you think from the off it was doomed because there's not one person making those decisions? Someone, a guy, I think he's sacked seven managers now on to his eighth manager. I think the director of football system is fine, but I think one of his first mistakes was he got that the wrong way round. He appointed Ronald Cooman as manager and Ronald Cooman is a very, very strong-minded, strong-willed individual and maybe difficult to work with, but difficult in that he wants things done in a certain way to bring in Steve Walsh afterwards, was in my opinion the wrong way round. You should have got the director of football in first. He could have maybe attracted a big name then because it was new, the money was there, whether they would have wanted Ronald Cooman as the manager, who knows, but I just think they got it the wrong way round. Steve Walsh was not a director of football at Leicester City. He was a scout and he scouted brilliantly at Leicester, bringing in people like Cante and Mahrez, people like that. He wasn't a director of football. So, that partnership I felt was doomed from the start. I think it played a part in the season where they ended with three number tens, the San Davies classon, you have to say would have Ronald's fingerprints all over that one, Wayne Rooney came back, then Guilvie Sigurdson came. So there was a lack of a structure and strategy even then. And then when he made the changes and Marco Silva came in, even then, Marco Silva and Marcel Brands came together on the same day, but they were not a pair. It wasn't like Marcel Brands picked Marco Silva because we knew from months before that Marcel was obsessed with the idea of someone he thought was a mini-Marineo-type figure. But by all accounts, they formed a very good working relationship. Marcel Brands was one of the people who, on that final day, when Marcel wanted to sack Silva, Marcel Brands was in his corner fighting for him, but he made the decision. Then the managers that followed, Carlo Ancelotti, Rafa Benitez, there's no way on earth Marcel Brands would have chosen those two people as his manager. Not to say they both had their qualities. Obviously the latter one, Rafa, it just wasn't acceptable to so many Everton fans, but they were just not his type of manager. If you'd have said to Marcel Brands who would you just give us a list of who you'd want as manager, you wouldn't have thought Carlo Ancelotti would have been on 80, this experienced man who'd want to do things his own way, and then Rafa Benitez, this experienced man who absolutely definitely wants to do things his own way. So I just think the system has been dysfunctional from the start. Do you think, because I remember that day, because I think I was literally sitting here all day waiting for Marcel to be sacked, but it was Brands who was fighting his corner all day. It was about 7 o'clock at night. I was literally waiting all day for the news to break. The way Everton are right now, the appointments of Carlo Ancelotti might have been... Even though Wally was here, the results were fine, and he sort of pushed Everton to the next level, bringing in people like Hamilton Rodriguez. I think that's where they took the real wrong turn. Everything before that felt like it was redeemable. We bought a lot of bad players, and we still had them on the books, but to me, I felt like when they broke Carlo in, they set this standard that was just far too high for the football club, and it meant you'd have to go and get some like Hamas or Rodriguez to keep them happy on ridiculous wages, where maybe at that point, with FFP really looking, certainly the Premier League rules, starting to look like they were starting to be imposed, that someone maybe like David Moyes, you could have dragged the club back to the level it should have been on and the right track, and that's maybe where it started to go wrong. David Moyes effectively had the job. He actually had the job more or less until Napoli decided to sack Carlo Ancelotti on a Wednesday night after he got them into the Champions League knockout phase, and I suspect what happened was that Moyes was getting the job, and then Mashiri saw that Carlo Ancelotti was available. Why can't we get him? In some ways, I find it very difficult to criticise him for that, because I know at the time, all the Everton fans couldn't believe that they got Carlo Ancelotti as their manager, one of the most decorated managers in world football, and there was lots of stuff like, well, is he the type of manager for Everton, because really what he was, and what he is, is a facilitator of great players. He doesn't go in and build teams from the ground up. That wasn't his thing. So the theory was maybe that Everton, rather than him having to become more like Everton, Everton had to become more like him. So you get the players who came in like Alan, and obviously Roderick Rees was the big high profile signing, and I think Napoli, if Carlo Ancelotti had started his second season at Everton, he probably would have been sacked in a few weeks, because they'd started to maybe go a little bit wrong in the previous season. But I would be very low to criticise Mishiri for getting Carlo Ancelotti, because, you know, he wanted to be ambitious, and, you know, at the time, I don't know many Everton fans who said they'd rather have David Moyes ahead of Carlo Ancelotti. So by saying that now, I think you're probably being a bit, it's a bit wise after the event. But what you're saying after what has happened since actually makes sense. No, I mean, the way, I mean, don't get me wrong, I mean, I remember when Carlo Ancelotti was announced, was around the fan base, was, well, we're waiting to see. I don't think, when he was announced, there was this euphoria of, like, that means we're going to get into the Champions League. A lot of people, like you've just said, were like, can he do the job we really need? But I think in terms of where we are as a football club, like I sit here, I'm just a fan. I don't know what goes on in the boardroom. Those people do, and those people should be making those decisions with the evidence they're given, and obviously what we've seen since then is that many things have started to go wrong. Is FFPAs, obviously, the Premier League's, you know, profit and sustainability rules ever? And I've clearly, I'll write up against it. And for me, that decision was almost like the catalyst. And I know you can say that in hindsight, but surely someone at the football club should understand that. Yeah, I agree with that. But again, you know, it's a difficult one, isn't it? Because you look back now and you think, well, yeah, maybe David Moyes would have been a better choice than Carlo Ancelotti. But on the other side of that, people are thinking, well, if you've got Carlo Ancelotti, he can attract these players. You know, he'd won at that time three Champions Leagues now four. And he, you know, he did in that one season he was there. He had some great results particularly away if he just couldn't get results at home, could he? And of course he made a decent start then. The lockdown came so the games would be behind closed doors and it was all a bit, you know, iffy. But then at the start of the following season, you looked at teams ever to be beaten away from home in that season, you know, Liverpool, Spurs, Arsenal, people like that, got points and united. A lot of it was good, it was the home form that did for them. You wonder whether the fact, a bit like Liverpool really, the fact that the fans weren't affected that home form. If I hadn't had anything like home form to match the away form, they would have gotten to Europe under Carlo. He just seemed to get bored, I think, towards the end. He just looked like, especially like, I think the likes of Sheffield United and Fulham, where the mum, to get into your, he just seemed a little bit bored. Maybe he was, but he was always that type of figure wasn't he. He wasn't like, you know, he wasn't the most emotional on the touch line. But he invested in the club and he invested in the area. He loved Crosby didn't he, and living round there. The problem Everton had was that out of the blue, I'm not sure whether Real Madrid could get who they actually wanted at the time. And so they thought, well, they'll turn to Carlo. There was a little bit of a holding operation and the holding operation won them La Liga in the Champions League. So that one came out of the blue. Again, far more sure you can cut plenty of flack, but I think that one was a bit of a stunner for him really. And obviously we've had Rafa, he says, ever since. I mean, did you ever think that was ever going to work? But you know what, I was probably one of the few people, and I probably count them on the fingers of one hand. He was experienced. He'd been successful. He's worked at various clubs like Newcastle. But he was always going to be judged to different standards for everybody else when he lost the game, when he made a substitution. There would always going to be this undercurrent of criticism. He actually made a very good start, but then there were two or three quite serious injuries to the likes of Calvert Living, Rashalyson, D'Corey, which sort of undermined him. And by the end it was unsustainable, unfortunately. And what was a slight disappointment to me about him was that if somebody said to me, what do you think a Rafa Benitess team would look like? I would say, well, they'd be well-organised. They won't concede a lot of goals. They won't concede stupid goals from set pieces. They'd just look like, even if they didn't win every game, they'd look like they knew what they were about and what they were doing. And he never seemed to quite get that. Whether he was trying to do something different because it was Everton, I don't know. But what I will say about him is, and people tend not to listen to the positive things that you say about him, the people he brought in on little or no money, Andrews Townsend was a decent signing until he got a bad injury. Damari Gray is still probably one of Everton's more potent players. I don't think you'd look back now and say getting rid of Lucadine was a massive error because of what he's done since. And the way he played for Everton for quite a while before that. And with that money, he brought in two decent fallbacks in Michelenko and Nathan Patterson. So that side of thing, I think, is a positive. But having thought about it since, and as one of the few people who thought it might be too bad, it was never going to work and it was a bad decision. But at the start, I thought, well, I can maybe see that. I think, yeah, I could actually, because I thought the way I looked at it was, and I actually shared it. So people know I said it. It was almost like they were safeguarding the next three years for when the stadium would be being built. It was like, let's just get a couple of tenth place finishes. We'll be all right, not exciting, and then getting that new stadium and then things will start to take off. They went into such a terrible run, didn't they? And they were losing games. They lost their homes to Brighton, I think, which was a bad result. The Watford one was a killer because they were two on up with 12 minutes to go and they lose 5-2. And then, of course, they played Norwich, who couldn't beat anybody. And the two go down after about 15 minutes. The crowd have turned. And again, you'd reached that point a bit like with Frank Lampard and West Ham. You reached that point where there's no going back, really. Yeah, there was a lot of symmetry in the two actually getting sacked because obviously Lampard and Rafa Benitez got draws away. No one ever seemed coming Chelsea for Rafa and obviously Manchester City. And then they lost the next game. Both lost the next game to Brighton, and then both lost the next game to teams bottom of the league. I think with Frank, after the World Cup, you looked and thought, right, three home games coming up now. Wolves, Brighton, Southampton. You've got to be thinking at the very minimum six, maybe seven points, and as the dream, nine. Because you're playing two teams, Wolves, Southampton, struggling, Brighton, you were a very good side. But to get none was a catastrophe, really, particularly in Southampton. Their manager gets sacked. The league game he won in his whole time at the club was away at Everton. Do you think after having this happen with the board, and we'll come on to that in a moment, but do you think a stronger board, a board that hasn't sacked as many managers as they had may have sacked Frank Lampard after the two Bournemouth defeats with that long break for the World Cup, like other clubs have? Obviously, Aston Villa look like they've benefited from that Southampton. Obviously not so, but do you think that maybe in Hainton should have been the moment ever? You look back and think maybe they should have done it then. Clubs used to do it at the international break, didn't they? We've got a couple of weeks, but the problem with this board is they could have done it, but would they have had anybody ready to come in? There doesn't seem to be any sort of clear plan. I mean, we ended up with Everton's board deciding between Marcelo Bielsa and Sean Dice. You couldn't ask for two more diametrically opposed managers and characters in styles than Bielsa and Sean Dice. That to me showed there was no clear thinking or one part of the board, the owner maybe, was thinking Bielsa. Another part was thinking someone like Dice or maybe Corbyn or somebody like that. But you look back again at Hainton's site, isn't it? And you think maybe they should have done it then and given themselves. I mean, if they wanted Bielsa, Bielsa could have had five weeks to bed people in, couldn't he? Cos he's not one of these people who wants to walk straight in and take over a club. And this is no reflection on him. I personally give Everton an appointed Marcelo Bielsa. They would have been guaranteed relegation because he just wouldn't have had any time to impose himself on the club. And you suspect he probably knew that as well, which is why he said, okay, I'll take the under-21 to the end of this, which is never going to be allowed. But in the end I think they've appointed a manager who's a really good manager and Everton's chances of staying up have improved with the appointment of Sean Dice. I've got no doubts about that. So obviously January was just absolutely chaotic for, I mean, I know for what we do. It just didn't stop every day. It was a different story. The manager, obviously, situation with trying to bring in new players and obviously the board itself, the fans obviously, turned more after the Brighton game, leading up to the Southampton game. What did you make of some of the things that have come out over the month? Obviously the Southampton game, the fans having a sit-in, and then before the game there was allegations of the CEO being assaulted and just created this weird situation where obviously since then the club have sort of said they want to leave that in the past and they haven't gone to the police about it. I think it's created mistrust. If the board have said they've had these threats and if there's the incidents with the chief executive then you have to believe them. You have to believe them but there's no doubt it created a mistrust and the fact that the board of directors felt unable to go to the game and then unable to go to the first managers, first home game, first game, I'm not sure how you find a way back from that. I really don't. I don't know under what circumstances now they will go back because it's quite a look, isn't it? For the first manager's first home game in charge and the board of directors aren't there. I just think it's been building up for a while. I think the running of the club has been so dysfunctional in terms of strategy, in terms of structure, the coming and going of managers, the signing of players, the waste of cash and I think the problem that lots of people have is that the board, they've had this strategic review but they've ended up in exactly the same place they were when they started the strategic review so what were they reviewing? One of the things was recruitment supposedly under the terms of the strategic review. January has just gone past and they've recruited nobody. So what were they working on? What has the strategic review done to improve things at Everton? Because you look at the situation now and they're in exactly the same situation possibly even worse than when the strategic review started. I think the relationship between the board and the fans is badly broken and I'm not quite sure what can be said or done to repair it. Obviously there's out there there's a lot of different idea of who's fault it is depending on I suppose who the person speaking is who's camped in but a lot of people put it down to Farad Mashiri but then a lot of people put it on the board and obviously the fans themselves have singled out it every single member. How do you see that? I think they're all responsible. I think the owner has to be chiefly responsible because he is the owner but the board are there if they have no power if it's all Farad Mashiri saying I want you to do this and if the things that have gone on excuse me that they disagreed with then you know some people might have resigned on a matter of principle so I think they all hold responsibility for everything that has gone on not just the owner who undoubtedly I think shows a real lack of awareness of football and how to run a football club although as I've said before the stadium is coming up, looks fantastic his hand in his pocket he's been very ambitious almost they're over ambitious if you go back to what you said about Carla Acialotti but they're all responsible for it the people who run the club are responsible for the position they're in and this position has been a poor one for a very long while I think what may be great with Everton fans is when they hear Bill Kenright saying other clubs revere the board and if they have a problem they think what would the Everton board do and the Everton fans look at what the Everton board have done and say well if you're running a football club properly you wouldn't do that so it's stuff like that the greats with them I think we've heard some great sound bites over the years from the likes of Bill Kenright what do you think he can do next then because obviously they've brought the manager in they can't sign any players now anyway it's day to day business now what do you think they should be doing because there's a board that's got Grantingles on Grameshark a lot of people question why you mentioned there about possible resignations he's someone why are you saying they look at and think why are you putting up with this you are a great of this football club so what do you think he can do next because there's obviously a lot of talk about investments coming from America possibly helping finalize finish off the stadium maybe places on the board now is hope that the manager they have pointed wins enough games to keep them in the Premier League I think it's as simple as that now they can't buy anyone what they've got is what they've got and then are relying on the manager who's got great experience and is very talented to keep them up if in the meantime Machiri can attract investment or a buyer then I think he would probably accept that because obviously he's become an unpopular figure with the fans but I think base camp now is Sean Dysh winning enough matches to keep Everton in the Premier League and as I said to you I think Everton's chance of staying in the Premier League are much better with him than they were before because he's not quite what you may seem Sean Dysh because I was invited three or four years ago to St George's Park to cover the UA for A licences being taken and I went on the basis that some of it was reportable, other parts of it you could watch it but you couldn't report on it in the afternoon there was a seminar on leadership and coaching and it was given by Sean Dysh and he was absolutely fantastic absolutely fantastic the way he spoke about his style how he worked with his backroom staff the way he goes about his job it was absolutely top class you went away from that thing he had to play for him because he had a real handle on what he was doing in some ways people insult him by saying well you know his methods are simple and stuff which maybe they are but honestly he spoke with great intelligence great humour and great knowledge and if I was an Everton fan and I could get a hold of a video and show them that which you can't because it was sort of behind closed those things and I would watch it and come away thinking we've got a chance under this guy because there's a lot more to him than meets the eye I think I think we've seen that already I've watched all the podcasts he's done and listened to him and he obviously listens to a lot of people not just in football, outside football and there's obviously been reported that he's brought in the likes of Peter Reid and he's looking to bring in Eddie Jones and people like that just to talk and I think I find that all very very very interesting just to finish off I mean obviously the fans are still really unhappy and they're going to continue with protests over the coming weeks I imagine do you think maybe the best way the ball can help is just by staying away and as you said let Sean Daish concentrate on the football let the Everton fans concentrate on the football and then not be a distraction by actually being around and creating an extra story I think that is a very good point we saw again to the Arsenal that the fans held a very peaceful demonstration before the game where they marched up to Goodison Park very peaceful pretty much as it was I think at Southampton I wasn't there but everyone said to me it was very peaceful off the pitch and maybe you're right maybe you've got a point maybe they should stay away and just let everybody just get on with it and assess the situation maybe at the end of the season hopefully for Everton's sake with Premier League safety assured but there's no doubt that it would be a distraction now because they've missed a couple of games and in fact the cameras would be on them the fans would be attracted to them if you like so maybe that is a third point maybe it would be a good idea for them to stay away and just consider how this situation can be improved whether it's by Mashiri selling up whether it's by somebody resigning more than one person resigning I would say a third thing to suggest that maybe don't have any distractions other than the team and then the fans who can have their protest peacefully and do what they did against Arsenal which was do all that protest peaceful and then I wasn't there but I've heard that the atmosphere inside the ground was absolutely fantastic and I think from what I gather against Southampton the fans were behind the team it wasn't like they did the protest before they did the sit-in afterwards but while the game was on Everton fans focused totally on supporting the team and that was what was actually strange about something that was said in Sean Dice's first press conference he mentioned the fans and it was again because we it's about communication and I think it's something certainly as a fan and doing this I've always struggled with Everton's communication and before that game when he was press conference he mentioned about the fans like not being with them and I found that very very strange and I'm glad Alan Stubbs actually picked it up when he was asked about it in the TV coverage he said that these fans will give you everything and he said I found that strange as well well if you remember last season I think after Jordan Pickford and Richarlison the people who kept Everton in the Premier League were the fans the fans almost decided at one point last season we're going down unless we do something about it and to support Everton received last season towards the end considering the situation they were in and considering some of the dross that had been served up was unbelievable it played as much of a part there's 80% of that playing squad in keeping Everton in the Premier League last season and for all the efforts of and I picked out two players there who were absolutely fantastic in helping Everton stay up the thing that really galvanised the club and obviously in turn galvanised the players was the way those fans supported the team and again as I say I wasn't at the Arsenal game but people who were there told me that beforehand peaceful protest made their point about the board but during the game it was full on total support helped by a new manager and Arsenal not scoring four goals in the first five minutes but the support was absolutely full on for the team and maybe to go back to your point that would work if the board just stay away there isn't a distraction but that's a decision for them that's why I find what happened on the Southampton game so baffling to me it's a thing for me personally I don't think the board can ever come back from it's not what they said it's how they said it and the timing of it and again I talk about communication all the time and the lack of it but let me just ask you one thing before I leave you mean you talk about the board not coming back were you around when Peter Johnson came back after selling Duncan Ferguson I was he was the last one he was exiled wasn't he did he stay away after that I can't remember he stayed away for a while and then he came back I don't remember the Peter Johnson again Peter Johnson somebody he was critical of him when I was at the echo but in many ways his intentions were good you know Peter Johnson I know he had all this agent Johnson thing but when he first arrived he tried to spend money, bring plays to the club he appointed Joel Roy which worked for a while he won a trophy but then again it just went per shape for him and a little bit like Rapper I suppose in some ways people started doing this agent Johnson business but his intentions were good and I'm sure when Farhad Machiri bought into Everton his intentions were good he wanted to back them with big money he wanted to be ambitious he wanted to have this Hollywood style manager didn't he and you know Cooman was the start of that if you like his intentions were good it's just that the decision making has been very poor and he takes his share of responsibility but the board of directors that is what they are they are directors and the way the club has functioned you know judging by results judging by the money spent on transfers judging by the turnover of managers you are not looking at a club that is stable and well run at the moment unfortunately unfortunately yeah let's leave it there Phil fantastic to have for you on the show you can find Phil over on the BBC website covering all the big games whenever there's a big game Phil will be there there you go check out Phil's stuff there thanks for watching toffy TV and we'll see you later