 Good morning now. We are sitting between you and the launch so I try to do this more entertaining and My name is Liang Ming. I'm the managing director for bits and watts initiative at Stanford and before I introduce The panelists I want to spend a minute or two really kind of lay down the foundation Why we talk about that and how the Stanford ecosystem working together to address this problem as we all know that Transportation sector is largest source of CO2 emission in this country Globally is the fastest growing sector for the CO2 emissions and just next to the power sector and about four years ago is Somebody mentioned the cooling outages at the Stanford the four years ago I have a one or most memorable experience or event at the Stanford we had the global advisory council meeting from the pre-call and About 30 global leaders working in the transportation sector from energy companies from OEM like a lift airbus Exeggeral coming to Stanford. We spend One and a half day at the Hoover Institute Linwall was part of the conversation and all of them part of conversation and the topic is how Stanford can help To decarbonize the transportation sector From light duty vehicle perspective meeting duty heavy truck real road maritime aviation and We learn a lot from the global councils and To respond to that we form different flexure project and initiative to address that The first one is three months later in October 2019 Three months after the council meeting bits and what program launched called the EB 50 Basically more from electrification perspective to address this problem say 50% the car tracks electrified What's impact on the transportation on the charging infrastructure on the utility infrastructure a? month later In actually a month before September in a way launch the storage acts and The part of storage acts is really deep dive to the battery technology. How can we bring down the cost of battery? How can we increase the density of a battery? How can address the cycling issues? How can address the shift issues really help? Electrify the transportation especially for the light duty vehicle perspective and Then a year ago many of you work here for the launch of hydrogen initiative Then we even look into further for the part of heavy duty and other Transportation sub sectors how we introduce the hydrogen and other alternative fuel be able to further decarbonize the transportation sector so by seeing that joining me today will be a very interesting conversation basically we'll look into from molecule and and Electron perspective how we can work together or work separately be able to decarbonize the transportation sector so we will start with my colleague a doctor Naomi bonus and She has multiple titles and one of them is natural gas Initiative many director, but more importantly for this conversation is a co-manager director for the hydrogen initiative then we have professor Ram Rajakoba and Besides his academic title as a social professor of civil engineering is also the faculty co-director for the bits and wants program and also is PI for the EV 50 program at the Stanford and Last but not least we have a doctor Jimmy Chen Jimmy has two hats One is a co-managing co-director for the hydrogen, but more importantly is many director for the storage acts initiative so what we are going to do in the next 50 minutes is and Each of them will start with Naomi more from hydrogen go to the electron then we will do the comparison with Jimmy So now me was each of them will spend about five or seven minutes to share with us the latest research They have been doing or they have done Then we will spend about 20 minutes have a moderate conversation And I would encourage all of you to ask a question when we go to the last 20 minutes Otherwise, I have a list of question can ask them Let me go ahead Thank You Liang five minutes is not very long to talk about a big piece of research So hopefully I don't sound like a podcast that you've speeded up, but I'm going to try and share some of the highlights This is a study that the natural gas initiative and the Stanford Center for carbon capture and storage did just last year on Fueling the California mobility market specifically with blue hydrogen using carbon capture and storage I have the privilege. Oh, that was the microphone. I have the privilege of presenting today but we have a team of rock stars and Specifically, I want to call out Sarah who's my partner in crime on this project and is sitting at the front So she'll answer any of the hard questions that you have And You know as Liang said emissions from the transportation sector Have been front of mind particularly in places like California today The transportation emissions in the state account for about 38% of the total We embarked on this project for a few reasons one is that the state is really focused on further reductions In the transportation sector The second is that they've put in some pretty aggressive Policy mandates that are going to require that new passenger cars and trucks be zero emission in the future and We already have a hydrogen fuel cell network. So we're In a location where hydrogen is already being used and it has some advantages, right? You know, none of these fuels are perfect, but hydrogen Doesn't require that you stop and charge for a long time. It allows for a Higher payload. It doesn't take up the space that batteries take up for example in trucks so this study the goal was really to assess whether or not it would be feasible and Economic to build a new hydrogen steam methane reforming plant with carbon capture and storage Co-located with some of the geologic storage that we have in the state to fuel the mobility markets as they might develop and You can see we looked at it from a bunch of different angles So I'm going to step through really quickly each of these in turn but the first thing we did was make an assessment of How many fuel cell vehicles there are going to be on the road in California and how much hydrogen? They're going to require And we have some scenarios for that The second is, you know, how do we? Build out a hydrogen plant or refueling station network in order to meet that demand If we're going to capture CO2 are there places to store it and finally, what do the economics look like? So I'm going to cut through six months of hard work and show you the outcome These are our hydrogen demand projections for the Bay Area So we focused our study on northern California. So the Bay Area in Sacramento And for each of those areas we kind of have a demand that looks something like this So you can see the hydrogen demand in tons per day That is a function of estimating how many of these zero emission vehicles are going to be fuel cell vehicles Sanger cars, mid-sized vehicles, heavy-duty trucks, and then multiplying that through by the amount of hydrogen that each of those would use And you can see, you know, in 2035 there is a wide range, right? Maybe hydrogen will be adopted and we'll be looking at 500 tons a day Or maybe electric vehicles are going to win the day and technology is going to accelerate at a faster rate And it could be as low as 50 tons a day The next step of the project was looking at where we're going to put that CO2 So, you know, there's a lot of subsurface knowledge and experience and skill sets from the oil and gas industry In northern California there are numerous gas fields And in Sarah's initiative there has been a lot of work done at looking at how we screen these gas fields To see whether or not they're suitable for storing CO2 permanently And it turns out, you know, you can rank these fields for a number of subsurface criteria And out of 27 fields, there are nine that are really highly ranked, they're really desirable You can see the amount of storage capacity they have there on the left But the fields in green meet all the criteria, so we don't think that the CO2 is going to escape And we think it's going to be fairly easy to inject it and so on and so forth And then we also did a bunch of work thinking about the land, right? If this is agricultural land, is it close to freeways? What are the environmental issues? We did some screening to look at criteria pollutants And whether or not a CO2 sequestration project would be socially feasible and acceptable And that eliminated a number of the fields, leaving us with seven in green That we think are really good candidates for carbon capture and storage in northern California And then lastly, we bring all this together and we say, OK, so to meet those different demand scenarios If we build a facility, if we look at different facility sizes, what's the levelized cost of hydrogen? And this is including all the incentives, so we have low carbon fuel standard incentive within California And we have the 45Q, that is part of the Inflation Reduction Act for sequestering CO2 And you can see that if the demand is low, so that 50 tons a day, it's actually pretty expensive to produce hydrogen, right? So, you know, for a midsize facility of 250 tons a day, it's going to be $5 a kilogram Because we're essentially overbuilding to meet a small demand But what's really interesting is, as you ramp up and you look at these higher demand scenarios The price drops dramatically to the point where it's negative if you have a really high hydrogen demand So I'll leave you with the thought that we have a lot of supply incentives, right? The whole world is jealous of the IRA. We are, you know, really kind of focusing on how do we produce cost-effective hydrogen But in order for this hydrogen economy to grow, what we now need to really think about is how we're going to create the demand poll Through policies and incentives, such that it becomes economic at scale So I will pause there, and I'm happy to answer any questions after everyone has gone, I guess Very good Thank you Naomi. Next, we will have Professor Ram Rajakobap going to share with us a very interesting project Founded by the Daw School's accelerator And Ram, go ahead Thank you Lieng. When Lieng asked me to talk in this session, I was thinking whether we should talk about our EV50 program That looks into the planning, operations, markets, and policies around electrification In order to enable the grid to sustain very high levels of penetrations of EVs And then I actually thought, well, this project illustrates a lot of those issues in the context of an actual concrete example So I want to tell you just a little story about electrifying the fleet of buses here on the campus And what it has meant in terms of emissions, and what we have to do So in 2013, Stanford had a diesel bus system doing about 1.1 million miles a year with 2800 tons of CO2 per year In 2014, we started buying electric buses. By 2020, we have 38 electric buses We still kept some diesel buses in case electricity is not available and it does happen And then the question is, well, what is the emissions that these buses are generating when they are running around? We know the tailpipe, they are emissions free. That really depends on the carbon intensity of charging So we decided to start kind of monitoring these buses and the charging and the grid to kind of understand this issue So at first one might think, well, we just saw Lincoln say, well, Stanford is 100% renewable You know, we have 5 megawatts of solar on campus, 117 megawatts off campus Well, maybe our emissions free on the charging So let's check that Here is kind of a pattern of a typical day on our bus lot And that's the charging for a 24-hour period This lot has a lot of solar And actually there's enough solar that all of the charging could be offset by the solar in that lot And you can see everything under the green curve at that moment when you're charging Great, that's all carbon free charging Then I add the emissions from the grid in California to overlay with the charging on the remaining time When I'm using grid energy And we can see that it's very aligned with the times when the grid emissions are quite high Well, what's the result of this equation? If you actually calculate the numbers And one of the challenges we immediately found is that, you know, you need the data from the buses You need the data from the chargers, you need data from the grid Data from the buses is not always reported There's a lot of technological issues and so on and so forth And there's not always accurate But after about a year of work, we managed to calculate these numbers And here's kind of the interesting numbers If I only consider charging from the grid, pretending the solar was not there My emissions intensities are between 3.75, 5.17 kilograms of CO2 equivalent per mile If I account for the solar, it's between 3.13 and 4.31 The complete that we just retired was running a 2.54 kilogram CO2 equivalent per mile Given these buses are very early electric bus versions Not as efficient as they could be But it's very clear our charging policies are not very good So first thing on vehicle electrification You have to align your vehicle charging with the grid And the challenge we set ourselves is how we bring this number to zero How do we make it carbon free? And so the idea is quite simple Well, you need to integrate all these different systems The grid, the bus and all of your local energy resources And once you can do that using algorithms You can actually predict the emissions the grid is going to offer Then schedule the buses in such a way that they can actually go and charge at the times when you have a lot of solar And that means understanding all of the very rigorous regulations In terms of when drivers need to drive, how long they drive, etc So there's a whole transportation scheduling that needs to be understood And then also use battery storage to kind of offset the remaining electricity you use Outside of the hours of solar And one benefit of moving so much of the electricity Locally is also that you are resilient to grid outages and so on As well as you need less stress on transformers, etc The infrastructure problem I talked before So we started building this platform that integrates hardware, software and algorithms to achieve this We are deploying it as a living lab here on campus So that we can do research going beyond what we are talking about here And we just joined a UN charter on what's called 24-7 Carbon Free Energy Which means aligning every kilowatt hour of consumption with a kilowatt hour of clean energy 24-7 And we are trying to set up a standard for transportation And just to show you how this is done Here's kind of the picture The first step is every day you predict the emissions for the next 24 hours Then you also predict the solar The next thing you do is you do what's called the bus blocking or scheduling So you assign the buses to the routes based on their initial state of charge There's an algorithms that we have developed for that And then you get the picture in the middle You can see a substantial amount is actually offset just by that And then finally you can add battery storage You can actually compute how much battery you need through a planning algorithm And then operate this battery storage to store energy from the grid from low carbon hours And then discharge when you want to use them And with that we can actually get very low carbon So what I wanted to end with is Well this concept can be applied here on this campus It can be applied on other campuses It can be applied when you share your charging infrastructure Which is another concept that's kind of emerging And it can go beyond just your electric vehicle charging And engage with other parts of the systems as well So thank you very much and looking forward to the discussion Thank you Ram So we heard hydrogen fuel sale We heard electrification We still have a little bit about diesel here But for the community how do we choose the right technology So the next my colleague Dr. Jamie Chen Bring to us a comparison study A very interesting comparison study they have done in the last year or two Jamie Okay good morning I guess it's still right at the tipping point Anyway what I'd like to share with you today Is a study that we've been doing for the last couple of years with AC transit So I'll just skip that We all know that transportation now is the largest greenhouse gas emitter So for those of you that are not aware in California as has been mentioned We have very aggressive transportation policies And one of them is this Innovative Clean Transit Act Where 25% of the buses new buses this year 2023 have to be zero emission So this is a charter to decarbonize the fleet of muni buses throughout California And as you can imagine the munis are scrambling to make this happen So a quick introduction to AC transit For those of you that are not from the San Francisco Bay Area There are a very large muni They have over 600 buses And some of the routes are very short By 10 miles to over 300 miles They also have a long history of exploring zero emission buses So we've worked with AC transit and was creating a side by side study So we go out to 5x5 study because there are actually five different kinds of buses Diesel and diesel hybrid which are your baselines A battery electric bus And then two types of hydrogen electric fuel cell buses The great thing about this is that they were actually ran through the same routes With the same drivers During the course of the study a lot of operational metrics were obtained And you can see them side by side Over the course of the study we've actually published four reports They're available on AC transit site or in our hydrogen initiative site So now I have a few tables from that study just to give you some ideas So one of them is take a look there in the first circle is the range So diesel is still much longer range The zero emission bus options right now are not approached to that So the diesel of 480 and 600 miles are very hard to obtain Our hydrogen fuel cell electric buses are better at 300 But then our battery electric buses which is listed there at 220 That's a big deal The second one is that these buses have ran for hundreds of thousands of miles Over the course of the study So here is an example of some of the summaries So take a look at the cost per mile So that's an actual operational metric that's very important For these munis right now as they actually decide how they're going to decarbonize their fleet So this gives them an idea of their actual operating costs And the circle on the bottom is an example of the reliability So miles between chargeable road costs is a Department of Transportation definition of the reliability Which AC transit actually monitored over the course of the study To give an idea of the existing reliability of diesel buses And that of the zero emission options Another aspect of the study revolved around infrastructure And charging infrastructure or fueling infrastructure In particular things like costs and charging or fueling time So one of the big things that came out was The battery electric buses will take you five hours to charge And what they really liked about the hydrogen is that It is similar to the way they operate right now Which is the buses come in They could refuel it in five minutes or less Or something on that order and then they're out on the field Okay, so the other thing that Stanford is now doing With AC transit is actually expanding and expanding the study So we want to map the data that AC transit has acquired And map it to public available data like temperature So we can understand the temperature sensitivity of the various options As well as the route attributes So one of the key questions is, well, okay So they run these particular routes but California is pretty mild We don't have really large elevation changes So we now want to take a look at the data and extract out the dependencies On elevation, temperature, congestion, etc We are also looking to create a shared public domain database Where all this kind of learning as the munis are decarbonizing Can be centralized and shared And the third one really is to create an assessment tool A public domain tool to help the munis as they decarbonize So let me just stop there I look for the discussion Oh, I'm sorry So some acknowledgment So this is the team at Stanford that I've been looking at this And we are very grateful for the team at AC transit Thank you Okay, prepare your question Please allow me to start my question kind of warm up the conversation Let's talk about infrastructure Needs of infrastructure As Jamie and Naomi dance like your advocacy for the hydrogen fuel cell transportation Especially Jamie are driving the fuel cell car if I remember correctly And from the infrastructure perspective Actually yesterday I was talking to some of the attendees They told me that they are driving the fuel cell car But they cannot find the station to refuel Even if they find it, they don't have the fuel Or it's broken So what is infrastructure needs If we want to heavily adopt whatever in the fleet or passenger car Regarding the fuel cell vehicle Let's start I think first of all to say I'm an advocate of lowering emissions in transportation I don't want to pick winners or losers, right And infrastructure is a problem across the board, right So I'm sure you're going to talk about Expand the grid by 60% to get to where we're going with electrification So if we zoom up to a higher level You know I like to remind people that even if we pull on the electrification lever With everything we have across all sectors, right That only accounts 50% of the global energy mix That means we're still going to require 50% of our energy to come from molecules And right now those molecules for the most part are pretty emissions intensive So hydrogen is one option in that space And I think in transportation we should be thinking about this not as a competition I don't want to be in competition with you But rather you know thinking about what makes sense for specific applications And how do we really be good stewards of the green electrons we have And the clean molecules we have because right now we have a shortage of both So that said you know for hydrogen right now For the most part gets made through steam methane reforming at centralized plants And it's put on tube trailers and it's trucked to refueling stations We're talking mostly about you know road applications here And of course that is not really scalable right There's all sorts of issues that come with that We're adding emissions to the life cycle analysis just by transporting it that manner in the first place And of course it's really hard to do that if you think about the hydrogen economy scaling by five to six fold So putting in pipelines is the obvious solution You know we know how to do that And of course the major barrier to getting that infrastructure in place is the permitting process in this country right So and it's true for both transmission lines on the electric side and for hydrogen pipelines and other types of pipelines And so if we're serious about scaling clean energy in general but for transportation in particular We've got to start by talking about how we permit the mechanisms that we know work That we have decades of experience ensuring it's safe and reliable Very good Jamie anything you want to add? Yeah I mean I echo everything that Naomi said and I think that as I think it has been presented earlier So we need every option actually where we're going right now we need everything And I think what most people don't realize and this is why I think studies like the AC Transit are so exciting Because you're real data which is the use case of say a fleet of buses or your Tesla at home They're completely different and people often lump them all together and say well just do this And the reality of the situation is that is not the way it works And so as you look at use cases that involve fleets even passenger vehicles We're talking hundreds of vehicles and then you are going to charge them all And then people say well just use fast charging just do it back with them to calculation About the power requirements of that and they're huge And so I think if you look at the use case you'll find where hydrogen makes the most sense Very good I mean I try to create a more controversial conversation make it more fun Maybe I want to add one Yeah I will ask you just because I know you're going to respond But I want to respond to the direction more compete with what Jamie and Naomi just mentioned You had a very famous paper published last winter So the high level question is the electricity infrastructure ready for the high proliferation of electrification Especially from the light duty vehicle but also you touch today regarding the bus And further along the line is regarding the heavy traffic If not how are we going to address the electricity infrastructure issues Especially from charging from a great perspective Excellent so I wanted to touch on three things The first one is that in that study as well as on what I showed you today What we discovered is kind of lining when you charge And when power is available at the grid and that power is clean is very very important And very critical and I think that's one of the challenges is that might change the way certain operations happen Can we do that The second issue that starts to arise with charging is as we try to go to higher speeds of charging To get longer ranges for you know new battery technologies that are appearing We have to support those chargers and the big bottleneck today is kind of the local grid connection You know at your substation at the distribution system There are going to be alternatives and technologies needed for that And I think that's going to be another big issue The third thing I wanted to say and this is kind of what you know I started looking into hydrogen after talking to Jimmy Is that when you think about hydrogen that also the production of hydrogen those plants are grid connected And the power intensity and where they're going to connect to the grid will also impose a demand on the grid And it's not clear to me which tradeoff is better You know where is the grid capacity in terms of producing that hydrogen And of course I don't study the transport of hydrogen and all that So those are the three issues and I think on top of that to cap it all off I really think the people component is very critical Think both for you know passenger vehicles where we need a lot broader adoption of electric passenger vehicles If that's the direction we think is we are going And we have to enact policies for that We also have to make vehicles that are cheaper but also teach people how to use and charge those vehicles But I think in fleets it's a lot more complicated A lot of fleets suffer trying to understand well what vehicles should I get When they get the vehicles what charging infrastructure I should get And then when I get the charging infrastructure they discover they have to change the way they operate The charging infrastructure is not reliable so we did a quick survey informally with a lot of our partners And we find that in a lot of these fleet sites about 50 to 70% of the chargers are down at any given time Because of communication issues lack of standards and things like that So lots of challenges ahead so kind of an exciting area In terms of like the you know I don't have a horse in the race but I'm a grid person But in terms of hydrogen versus electric I would also say hydrogen also has a grid cost And that has to be included into this picture in terms of how quickly can we deploy the sizes of plants that we were seeing out here Yeah I'm sorry I don't think we can really speak of it as hydrogen versus electric I think that's a mistake I think we should really speak of it as different kind of options for different kind of use cases Very good There's a much better way of looking at it So I'll open the floor and see if audience has any questions I see one There's one behind the podium in case you can't see Liang I'm sorry who's first Okay go this one then you will be the second one Thank you so much for this very interesting discussion I have some thoughts on this topic I feel there are many technologies available in case of transportation It could be internal combustion engines running on e-fuels It could be hydrogen run fuels and vehicles or electrification of the fleet However I feel at some point of time we need to decide what would be the proportion of each of these Otherwise the back end infrastructure will take forever to get built and acted upon And there would be associated challenges with stranded assets also We have already built electricity capacity based on natural gas and fossil fuels for example Same we have to replace so on so forth We have to pick infrastructure what we want to do with green versus blue versus turquoise Hydrogen and so on so forth So I feel it's time we know enough what technology will play how much role So we just need to stick to those numbers and start building back end infrastructure to support that Thank you Very good comments I do have one thought on that I mean part of the outcome from this study with AC transit was exactly that What is the portfolio of buses that they plan and need for what they want to do And so if you take a look at the public published transition plans of the munis They'll give you that kind of insight which is exactly that portfolio breakdown for their particular needs Very good let's move on So quick suggestion when you ask question please identify yourself and also make sure the question is simplified Be very straightforward to save the time Thank you very much I think you're the next one Thank you very much Mark Neckadam with Western States Petroleum Association Jimmy yesterday you put an entire panel of scientists on the spot with this question so maybe it's fair enough Okay If you have the policy pen What would you recommend that California do as a state And do you think you'd end up anywhere different from where the Air Resources Board is now with the Scoping Plan Advanced Cleaning Pleats and Advanced Cleaning Cars So I actually when I look at the range of policies and transportation and I certainly would welcome the inputs of my fellow colleagues here I'm actually really excited that the whole range of policies that are in place in California You know and they keep pulling it in if you just take a look at the latest executive orders and everything else It's fascinating to see And so I think we have many of the pieces that are happening or will be happening What I feel is among the things that's more difficult right now is the organization and planning of the infrastructure Necessary to be consistent with that It's somewhat what I describe as the Wild West right now You know you have utilities on one side You have private companies on the other What do they put in What's going to be the quarter It's very chaotic right now And when I look at it from the standpoint of it's chaotic within the government And then the investors are trying to follow that chaos and the dynamic landscape So if there was in fact a comprehensive and I just talked to the CTC The California Transportation Commission on this You know is there a blueprint or a plan that revolves on infrastructure That can help guide the establishment of this infrastructure So we don't go all over the place And this infrastructure is really expensive And if you put the wrong one in you can't just you know like a video game say redo That's not going to happen And so if it were me I would really focus on What kind of infrastructure that we need In what areas and what it's going to carry Okay Hugo Agnero-Zarabes I have a specific question for you Nami I was wondering if you could comment a little bit on some of the assumptions That were made for the different projections The low, middle and high demand scenarios And maybe some of those assumptions specific to aviation if you can For aviation So our project was focused exclusively on road transportation You know we're a long way from using hydrogen for aviation right I mean you know sustainable aviation fuels is kind of where that's at So I can talk about the assumptions sure So there are mandates in place You know around how many new vehicles are going to be zero emission Required to be zero emissions by certain time frames So we can start with that as the framework And then look at you know projections from different authorities On how fuel cell versus battery in different vehicle classes Is going to be adopted right And we had three scenarios because there's lots of uncertainty within these ranges You know for heavy duty transportation I think there's going to be significantly more fuel cell There's you know benefits not having to stop and charge If you're driving a truck delivering groceries you know For example And so we really broke it down pretty granular to think about The use case for each type of vehicle And then looked at adoption to date And how we think the policies are going to impact that moving forward Thank you so that assessment was that study was made before The most of the work under the California hydrogen hub Submission arches Yeah, yes it was Thank you But I'm happy to share it with you we have a report you're welcome to dig in if you're interested Let's go this way Can you hear me? Jimmy I want to commend you on a nice empirical study I feel like there's a lot of desk work going on And it's really nice to see you working with AC transit Like here's what's actually happening on the ground With actual buses that are driving actual routes By actual humans all the kind of good stuff we want So I really like that To that point you skipped over a lot of the good stuff You had your table with all the meat and then you kind of went past it fast So I wanted to press you on one thing Your bus reliability on the electric side was really atrocious And that's very contrary to what the I would say received wisdom on let's say internet discussion forums Where energy geeks hang out or Not that I hang out on internet discussion forums or on energy But I guess the received wisdom about electric vehicles is simplicity And they just work and all this kind of stuff Can you, does AC transit have any insight from like What the heck is going on with their buses Yeah They make them, the e-buses in particular And the old fuel cells also look pretty bad The new fuel cells look good But what did you, what did they learn? What's going on there? Yeah, I mean this is like any new technology And in terms of passenger vehicles for electric vehicles You know, it's got a pretty long runway What they're finding out with the batteries Battery electric buses for example Is that you have much smaller mom and pop shops And they know how to make buses But adding a propulsion system that's That's very different You know, even the independent of the maintenance and everything else Was a big problem for them And so some of the Some of the things that they were finding were Like they couldn't get an alternative part You know, they couldn't go to their diesel And say okay, this thing broke down In their electric propulsion You know, let's just go and get another one You know, they don't have an inventory of these parts So now they go back to the bus maker And the bus maker has to go and place an order With their supply chain issue And then they find out that that part is not available They have to make it This is the learning and bring up of the supply chain And other things that's going to be necessary For any maturation of a new vehicle And a new propulsion system And this is independent And in addition to some of the things that they discovered Which is like, you know, you say PG&E, please come in I know there are folks from PG&E here I'm hoping I'm insulting anyone on this Thank you, but you know, it's just like We got our buses in Can you come in and get it up and running Change out the poles and transformers and everything, you know, in a week No, it's going to be six months You know, there's a lot of bring up That is associated with this new system That is, it's becoming evident And what I like about the real numbers Is because those are real data This is no longer, you know, because one of the frustrations I had With the papers and stuff There's simulations or anticipations or expectations Estimates, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah It's like, okay, give me the real numbers, right And looking at those real numbers is like Okay, this is where we're at And this is some of the challenges we have to overcome I just wanted to add a small thing to this story Even on the Stanford buses You know, there were substantial problems Like the readings on the state of charge are incorrect So bus drivers have to stop the bus Deboard everyone, get another bus Bore them back But with successive generations of these buses This has improved So the scaling and learning of the technologies is very important And I think in the electric side We do have the benefit of having all of these passenger vehicles out there And being able to borrow some of that And of course the supply chains are growing on that side as well But on the charger side We still face a lot of problems today, even Yeah, there's a lot of learning Even for the electric vehicles, passengers, right If you go and look at public domain Charging on that, right It's not unusual for them to have things that are not working on them And so I think there's a whole learning As we bring up this whole infrastructure Okay, very good We have about five minutes left And I'd like to revisit to one of the questions That they ask here regarding the policy And the policy has different things You can have the characteristics And I want to learn from you Because you kind of alluded a little bit regarding the inflation reduction actor What is the most exciting Because we allow the money floating around this moment Especially from federal government We have infrastructure bill, we have inflation reduction actors What's the most exciting incentive you have to see Could it be on the hydrogen area Or around the EV area From the government to incentivize The adoption of advanced technology To decarbonize the transportation sector Just name one of them Name one? Yeah Well, I mean I've been working a lot on the 45V Which is around the hydrogen production And I think there's a lot of excitement in that space To bring down the cost To get investment in the production And also really I'm going to take two, sorry I think, you know, in California LCFS has been so successful We're, you know It's been extended now To 2030 With a goal of kind of Reducing the carbon intensity To 80% below 2010 levels And just last year alone, right We've saved, you know, 27 million metric tons Of CO2 through the low carbon fuel standard So if I was waving a policy stick I would suggest that the low carbon fuel standard Be, you know, rolled out Across the entire United States Very good Be fair, too Sorry On my side I think is the incentives provided For establishing public charging stations And that can be in various ways You know, workplace, public, etc And there's some minimum arrangements That you have to follow But it's a huge opportunity To kind of create the kind of new And reliable charging That fleets and others will need So I agree with everything that's been said I'll add one more Which actually was a surprise The IRA passed the $7,500 credit For your emission vehicles So you had vehicles that used to qualify That were made in other countries So like EVs that were made in other countries And they're sold here With the IRA that became no longer suitable For those other cars And that was somewhat of a surprise And so I would recommend that As part of the adjustment to that That you actually have some sort of transitory period So because it's going to take you a long time to build The ability to make your emission electric vehicles Here in the US And so in my opinion there should be some sort of Transition to that rather than just cutting it off Very good, very good Okay, my last final question Will be, let's talk about We talk a lot about passenger cars And the bus, etc But another one is really the heavy transport I think someone asked this question I want each of you have maybe A 30 seconds, a minute Share your strategy how we can decarbonize The heavy transport Like truck, railroad, maritime, aviation What's the strategy we should think about? For aviation There's IRA incentives Around sustainable aviation fuels What's really cool about that Is we can blend them in with the jet fuel But they're at very low volumes right now So we have to figure out how to do that And on maritime I'm really excited About the work that's going on For ammonia and potentially methanol fleets Yeah, in this sector I think For those solutions where electric Is still a possibility What I've seen in a lot of situations You have to start considering Either the expansion of transmission To reach those locations Replacement and upgrading of substations And finally I think The idea of supporting some of those sites By different types of local generation That's kind of the strategy that I've seen For other applications it seems Electric may not be very appropriate Yeah, I would argue with that If we just look at energy density To remove that much weight And ships is a great example of that I think you have to look at molecules The energy density of batteries Is just too low for that kind of application Very good To conclude this session I would say thank you all of you And the number one thing I learned Is to decarbonize the transportation sector We have to work together Not just molecule versus electron But it's molecule and electron And also I would like to Have a quick small announcement We talked about in the last three or four years And based on the inputs From the Global Advisory Council All of us working really hard Work on different things Trying to address the light duty And the media duty relatively easy Now we are moving toward direction How about heavy transport sectors So November we're good to have a workshop Specifically we'll look into The heavy transport sector decarbonization strategy And with that I'd like to thank Jamie, Ram, and Naomi For this hour conversation Thank you all