 Good morning, good afternoon, good evening, round two today. Welcome to our episode of the Stories, Women Carry, we're episode nine and third one of this season and sort of ninth one of the larger series. My name is Karishma Bagani and you're official question asker and host of the series. And we essentially cover creative practice of women on the African continent in the diaspora. It's my privilege to introduce Princess, who is in South Africa at the moment. So today we're going down South, hi, Princess. Hi Karishma, hi everyone who's tuning in. So good to have you here, Princess. Thank you so much for making the time in the evening to speak with us today. Thank you so much for invitation. I mean, super excited. Really excited to have you. Before I sort of jump in, I just want to again thank our producers, the Halran Theatre Commons for hosting the series and posting us on their website. And also thank the Terebri Arts Foundation and the Nairobi Musical Theatre Initiative for co-presenters and partners on this series with us. We have a wonderful American Sign Language interpreter, Zina, who is here with us, has been here with us. So thank you for speaking at this time in a different language and for making this more accessible for our diverse audiences. So I have, so folks, I had the privilege of meeting Princess, what, a year ago, I believe, a year and a half ago, we haven't ever met in Paris, but it feels like we're family already because we work together and our fellows at the Georgetown Lab for Global Performance and Politics, which is a lab that selects 10 fellows every year to discuss and art at the intersection of politics. So it was my privilege to meet Princess and learn about her work there. And so I'm very excited for her to be sharing it with you today. Princess, for those of us, for those of our audiences, don't know the awesomeness that is in this package of your human body. Tell us. Why? Sure, I think it's always a difficult question to answer when you do so much. And I pride myself in just expanding the different fields of work that I engage with. First and foremost, I am a theater director, producer, and I've been in the industry for over 10 years now and have really had a great career so far. My work has traveled, my work has really changed, or sort of I could say launched a lot of young artists' careers because I always say I was sort of the guinea pig as a young black female theater director. There were very few of my kind when I started. So I believe I was fortunate enough to get that opportunity to direct a lot of work, some of my own that have devised other work that collaborated with Playwrights. And I think for the past maybe six years of my career, I went into managing independent space and that sort of defined a lot of the last part or the past few years of my career as an independent creator. So yeah, I could say I've sort of tried to dive in as much as I can to learn as much as I can as much as possible to survive in this rat race. Yeah, rat race it is for sure. You spoke a lot about, well, you started off by saying, you know, as one of the few female black artists in doing the work that you're doing. I'm sure that that must come with stigma and struggle and I can't imagine how that must manifest it. And I say that just because as a South Asian Kenyan, it's also a very interesting sort of dynamic being a female director in my space and sphere. So can you talk a little bit about sort of how you got into the arts and why you chose this trajectory and you said it was unconventional for you. So what was that like? What were the differences in this journey for you? Yeah, I think from high school already there was a huge interest and I was fortunate enough that I had a mentor, Ishmael Mohammed who was based in my hometown at that time and had started an acting group. And so we would create work, he would direct and then we'd also take the work to Gramstown. And while we in Gramstown would get the opportunity to be in the main festival and also school festival as performers. So I mean having that type of opportunity just allowed me to get a clear perspective of what the industry for myself could be. So already from high school, I really knew that I wanted to explore that part. So I went to study. However, directing was not in the cards. I really wanted to act. I really wanted to act. But when I got the opportunity in my final fourth year to direct, that's when I sort of thought, hang on, there's something here. And from there, I think like I'm saying because there weren't a lot of female directors, as soon as the theater started to see my work at school, there was a huge interest in what I was doing and how and the type of stories that I was interested in telling. So from the state theater approached me and gave me an opportunity to direct. So that was really my breakthrough. And one of the show that I did was And the Girls in the Sunday Dresses by Zae Simda and that sort of, you know, really opened up the doors for me. And what's it like now for a young artist, a female artist of color that would be interested in the arts or a young person who is interested in creating like, working in the sector, what is it like now for you? Would you say that the creative sector has changed over time to be more accommodating? Or do you still feel as though there are spaces where there's room for improvement to expand opportunities in the sector? Karishma, I think there's always room to improve. I think there's definitely not enough that is done currently for female voices. I think female voices are doing a lot of their work on their own. And I think the industry is not easy at all. And I think that was something that I fought a lot that I didn't want to be placed in some, you know, high pedestal of like, I'm a female director, give me opportunities. I really wanted to prove myself, you know, as soon as I discovered the talent, I wanted to keep on learning and improving. So a lot of the times I really fought against structures that limited my growth. I wanted to find out about producing. I wanted to find out about how I would create and write my own work. And I think a lot of the female directors or theater makers currently are doing exactly that. They are fighting for their voices to be heard and really grabbing any opportunity that comes to do that. So I don't think it's definitely easier in any way. The fight is still the same, you know, even when I think of just, you know, theater makers who are really making a market still a large part, you know, focused on males. So a lot of work still needs to be done in that sector. Right. Well, it's really, I mean, it's very profound. And it strikes me what you said about how you sort of continue to expand your talent and continue to focus on that, as opposed to continuously being subjected to this idea of, okay, so I'm a female. And so I'm a female director. And so that means something, right? And so this is why I should get this opportunity. I think it's really, really important to emphasize being good at your craft as the first thing, you know, that should speak to any artist that's interested in working with you or creating, creating the art with you. And so to pivot on that, I would love to learn a little bit more about your practice. You spoke earlier about directing other people's work and then also directing some of your own work and devising. Why don't you tell us a little bit about maybe two productions that you've worked on that are different and what the processes look like for those two and how they differed? Yeah. I think I'll speak on my most recent work because I think it's sort of represent my shift as a theater maker and how one has to adapt, you know, because honestly, I feel my career from a young age, like I was saying, I was really thrown with a lot of opportunities. You know, at times I felt undeserved, you know. However, once I came, especially when I hit 10 years in the industry, I really wanted to define my practice as well, you know, go into a direction where I wanted to explore, you know, the type of stories I wanted to tell. And one is a production called Faceless, which is very experimental. I did it during COVID times and, of course, theaters were closed. So it forced me to sort of figure out a different way of bringing my actors together, collaborating and seeing, you know, how we tell stories. So this particular production, I created separately. So I have two performers in it. And the two actors have never met. However, the story links them together, right? And this was interesting for me because it was a way of devising without any theater or producer pressure. You know, it was really purely creative selfishness, if you would say. So I really enjoyed that process as it forced me, like I'm saying, to adapt and see, okay, what is the way that I can engage with my audience, especially during these difficult times, you know. So I enjoyed that piece very much. So it's, and now it's archived. It lives, people can engage with it, which is something different to my past work. One work that I did was a musical called Divas of Goffifi. And that was sort of, that was in 2016. And it was a huge production. Huge production. We had Mamdoro, T-Masuga. We had Mamtandi class and before they both passed on. So this for me, when I engaged or went into that production, I felt was a production that would sort of live on, you know. And it took a very long time to create, you know. So I really invested a lot in that process of creating work with a playwright, having producers well funded. So it really allowed me to really explore and expand as far as I could in a musical theater. So I think they're very different because one is, you know, is selfish, is small, you know. Whereas the other one had everything that I needed. However, it was still hard to maintain the lifespan of the show, which for me was part of the disappointment in the industry of how do we keep our work alive, you know. So it can live on and carry the stories of legends like Dorothy Masuga and Mamtandi Kassan. So I think both of those shows sort of, you know, were at a time in my life where I was requiring some kind of change in my own personal career. Well, it's so fascinating to hear you talk about the differences in those and I'm sure, and you know, inevitably the external circumstances really affected the way you devised. I have a few questions about the one that you did most recently, Faceless, but before we move to that, I would love to hear you talk a little bit more about what you wish during the time that you, when you were staging the other production, what would you wish you had to increase the lifespan of the show? I think that particular show, I mean, like I'm saying, I've always been interested in producing, right? Because I feel it's fundamental to have good producers to ensure that our work have a long lifespan, you know. So with this particular work, I wish I had well-informed experienced producers, you know, which I think it's part of the issue that we're experiencing in South Africa in terms of corruption and, you know, people just receiving funds who don't really necessarily know the work that it entails. So with that production, I wish that we had, creatively, we had a great team. However, you know, just in production in terms of the team who could, you know, take the show further than where it went, I think that was the disappointing part for me. Because I, if I'm a director, I want to be a creative. I don't also want to produce, you know, especially with such a production. So I wish that we had great producers who could just, you know, have, you know, I mean, if you think of South African shows that have lived for long, Sarah Fina was a Albert, you know, there's a reason why those shows worked and we can use the same methods to ensure that new voices will show that we do now can also live on and, you know, become an archive for the future. Because if those stories don't live on, then, you know, how do we carry that history? Totally, totally. And I think there's a very interesting stereotype myth. I don't know what we would call it on the rest of the continent, at least about South Africa because of shows like Was a Albert and because of shows like Sarah Fina existing, there's this idea myth that South Africa has it all and South Africa is the next Broadway and South Africa has these infrastructures that's going to keep it going. But in, you know, my conversations with you and in conversations, a lot of other colleagues, it feels as though there's a lot of infrastructure in the country as well that is yet to be developed that is still sort of in the creation stages to be able to sustain this kind of work in the longer term. Yeah. Generally, as an African continent, we are moving towards this idea of being able to archive and tell our own stories and present them on a global platform. And yet still continue to struggle with this question of sustainability and maintaining things. And it's just a share, you know, part of our series on stories women carry will actually highlight some of these platforms in the next few weeks. We're going to be speaking with actually next week, we're going to be speaking with Nike Jonah, who is the executive director of the Pan-African Creative Arts, which is, which they're not really producers much as they are presenting platform. Yeah. It works out of the Vristath Arts Festival in South Africa. And they do have a producer's lab and they work through having a lot of workshops to again create the sustainable infrastructure that we're talking about, not only in terms of theater spaces, but also in terms of the people, right? Yeah. I think we have, we have the blessing and the curse on the continent, being jacks of all trades and knowing how to produce and direct at the same time. Yeah. Then not in that sort of being a shortfall when it comes to the kind of work that we produce. Yes, true. How do you balance all of these interests of yours? How do you make sure that the creative juices in directing and in producing and in the music, in your involvement in the music industry, which I believe you haven't yet met, which I know about. Yeah. How do you balance all of these things? Just knowing you as a person also you have this thirst for, for knowledge and everything that you do. So yeah, what's the secret? I think I definitely give each thing its own time. By the time I got into producing, you know, I had sort of really explored as much as I can in directing, you know, to the point where I wanted to produce my own work and felt the stress of that, then, you know, started to focus on other people's work, you know, same with going into music, you know, I literally had to take a break and not direct and focus on that, you know. So I really have to give each thing time as much as, you know, you'd want to just mix it all. But it's definitely not easy at all. When I went into music management, managing an artist, I even had to just focus on that one artist because I knew, you know, this is a new industry and I need to learn as much as I can, you know, so I need to give it time. So yeah, I think that's what I do. I just give each thing time and really put my all into it. Yeah, I mean, even in my conversations with you or just learning from you during our fellowship calls through the lab, like it's been really interesting to hear your journey and also hear you speak about the things that you've learned and that you're able to transfer from the things that you've been doing. So while you keep things separate, if I were to ask you, what are the three things that you'd say or skills that you would say are transferable with all of the things that you do, what would those be? So management throughout, I think just project management in general. I look at each where there's an artist, the film, you know, everything needs to be managed well, you know, that's number one. Secondly, a good team. I've learned that I cannot do anything alone. So in everything I do, I'm sure at least I have two or three people, you know, who know the vision and know where we're going and ride or die, you know. And I mean, I have to have fun. If the fun stops, you know, then, then I know and I want music. Yo, music was one way it was fun in the beginning and then it just got stressful, you know, and I think it's, it has to do with money as well, you know, music. I think money, you know, you can access it much quicker than theater, you know. So I think with music, as soon as it becomes like, I want to start deciding I know, okay, time to move on, you know, so fun isn't important for me because it just keeps the drive and the passion going, you know, and I'm always reminded whether we make money or not, you know, I'm having fun in something I love to do. Yeah, I love that spirit. I think the spirit of the work is in the fun and in the community that you build and the teamwork as well. So thank you for sharing that. I continue to strive to apply that in my own work as well. Just have fun and when you're not having fun, change something, you know. Yeah. Yeah. I want to take us back to when you were talking about the different productions you were speaking about faceless as well. And I, I sort of the gist of the conversation that we're having today is there acting during the time of COVID, you know. So, and before I do that, I just also want to say that to our audience members, if you're tuned in on Facebook or Twitter or the how round platform, these are all open for you to ask questions to process. So I can continue asking the questions, of course, and have loads. But if you have any questions that you'd like to ask as this conversation moves forward, please feel free to put them in the chat and they'll be related to us and we'll try our best to get to them. So yeah, please do, please do do that. So I'll move on with my question. What was that experience like for you? How did that shift, you know, from that, I mean, it was a big shift for everybody, but what was that experience like for you specifically? Yeah. I think, sure. I always say, you know, in South Africa, theater makers are generally creating and we're not creating with the know that my work will land in a mainstream theater. You know, I think mainstream theater still really has a handful of theater makers that, you know, get the opportunity to get their work fully produced, you know. So it's always been that not everybody gets their work to be in the mainstream. Even myself, you know, I've had that opportunity and it's a struggle to get back and say, hey, you know, I'm still a voice. You know, it's still very hard. So I think. Sorry, can I interrupt you? Sorry. I just want to interrupt you and ask when just for our context, when you say mainstream, what do you mean? So when I'm saying mainstream, I'm referring to this is our theaters basically. So this is where we're not, right? You're not thinking, you're not talking. No, no, no. This is just our theaters, which is not quite a lot. It's, but we have, you know, I think in Johannesburg alone, maybe there's a good three or four that, you know, while operating theaters that I could try my luck in submitting work. So, and what I mean is we, you know, theaters currently are not so much or for the past few years, you know, there wouldn't be an open call, submit work, you know, we don't have those type of structures anymore. Whereas in my time when I was entering, actually that's was how you would, you know, propose your work and pitch your ideas, you know, as a theater director. So I think a lot of theater directors for the past few years have really been struggling on, I have this voice, but where do I take it? You know, how do I engage with theaters and say, please produce my work, you know, if I'm not producing myself. So I think theater makers have just generally been creating it anyway, without the know of where it would land, you know, so when COVID hit for me, I think like I'm saying, I was already going through the transition. I had just finished my music journey. And I was, you know, going back into, you know, telling my own stories as a theater maker. So it was the perfect time for me, you know, where everyone in a way is starting over and trying to redefine the type of stories they want to tell and where, you know. So what was fortunate for me is that my husband is a film director, you know, so for the first time in a long time, now we're talking about my work, you know, in a film structure type of thing. So it was great to have that support, you know, and really ask, you know, what is theater when it's recorded? Where will this thing live? Whatever I'm doing, where will it live? How do I share it, you know, with people? And I think for me, I had to focus on the advantages of where we were, rather than the disadvantages. I didn't want to stress about not having access to a theater because that's not easy anyway. We're at the current moment. I didn't want to stress about how I'll engage with my actors, you know. We just had to find means. And like I'm saying, with faceless, I basically had to limit my cost and really have a one-on-one interaction with each actor. And that's how we created the work. And it fitted well within the theme that I was exploring, you know. So for me, it was definitely hard, but there were just still ways of not shutting out and still creating work, which I think is important for everyone. We always need to continue to create and find ways of telling our stories. So for me, it didn't stop. I told the stories anyway, just in a different medium. Yeah. And to that end, do you think, you know, South Africa or in the world, do you think that theater in the way that we knew it before this pandemic still stands a chance of existing in the same way? It's kind of not. Let's just take a moment and do that together again. What a question. It's so painful, you know. It's just the truth is it probably won't, you know, it probably won't. It's just the truth. You know, I feel like just once we've explored and experienced a different way, you know, that will forever be part of it. I think festivals, for example, will always think of a digital festival and online, you know, experience or even just mixing, right? So I feel what we've gone through, we can't just drop it and, you know, start go back to what it was. It's forever affected just how we think. For me, as a theater maker, I've always known that I can't just be a theater maker. I need to also put an end on in understanding how does my work get to the audience, you know, and I feel just engaging with this digital way of creating just allows my work. That's the positive for me. Suddenly people can watch my work from wherever, you know, however, I still feel that I try not to sell it as the work for me, you know, I still, for me, it's like a marketing tool. So I'm still saying, hey, this is what I'm interested in. This is my practice, you know, I would still try and love to, you know, engage in how we can still have the face-to-face experience, you know, which for me will forever be theater, whether it's limited to the number of people who experienced that or not. I think that's still, you know, the core of what theater is, you know, you need to have that audience in front of you, you know. So, yeah, it's definitely changed. It will definitely, for me, stay in a way that it's affected, but will forever be trying to evolve and just find different means and ways of making sure that our stories are heard, you know. So, yeah, it's hard, it's hard. Yeah, I think that will come with a, will ask or, sorry, I lost you in between for a little bit because of my internet, but I think that hybrid form from a producing perspective and a directing perspective is going to ask for a different skill set. So even within the world of education, for example, there'll be a level of sort of cross-pollination of some of the things that will be needed to think about a Zoom play, you know. One of our previous panelists in the previous season, Asimou Debra and I were having a conversation a while ago and she was a playwright and she was telling me how most of the plays that she's written in the last few months have been for Zoom or for online consumption. And so she almost convinced that there's going to be a genre and there's going to be a new, like a course that could be taught for just the Zoom play and what that structure looks like. I think there's some interesting questions there about accessibility. Exactly. Yeah. Would you say that the online Zoom production of Faceless by virtue of it? Oh, I lost you there, Kirsten. Hello? Can you hear me? Oh, I'm sorry. It seems like the internet is active. Yes, can you hear me now? Yeah. Sorry, so where did you lose me? Sorry, folks. No, you were talking about the accessibility. So would you say that, yes. Okay. So would you say that you're the Zoom version of Faceless by virtue of it being on Zoom, was more accessible or reached a wider audience or an audience that wouldn't have come for it otherwise if it was in person? Not necessarily. I still feel like I'm saying that particular project was a form also looking at archiving and not necessarily a live experience. So I didn't showcase it to a Zoom audience at all. So part of the exploring for me was how it's recorded and how we experiment with the actors and putting it together. And where for me the advantage is that it's something that I can definitely pass on and share at whatever time or year it can definitely live on. But definitely is a problem with accessibility if we just focus, you know, if our industry now just focuses on online and Zoom theater, Zoom shows. I know for a fact that not everyone was able to adapt. Not everyone was able to engage with this world that we now know. There's still a lot of theater makers. Just in my hometown I did a workshop there just to bring them into how the world has been evolving in terms of theater that let's write some new plays, let's try and record them. Not as a way of saying, hey, watch this, but saying, hey, actually this is a show we've done and we've recorded, here's a snippet, please, you know, let's see what we can do with this production, you know. So it's just giving people that accessibility to knowing that these type of things are possible and this is happening in a lot of countries. But I think it would definitely not, and it's still not, you know, not a lot of people were able to transition into that new way of making theater. So accessibility definitely would be a problem for a lot of young voices. Yeah, and it's actually precisely the reason why I feel like more convenings and more spaces for young people to connect with and converse with each other, whether in person or online are all the more important because I feel at least as a young artist, like the our generation, well, our generation is our first audience in many ways, you know, and so I think you've spoken to a really important point of accessibility when it comes to our generations also. And in that regard, I mean, I guess this is more of a sort of personal question, we can share it with the world, given that both of us are lab fellows. As we sort of wrap up our formal time at the lab, you know, we were supposed to have had our, we would have been in person actually for our festival at this moment. Yeah. I've been giving you a hug in person. I know. I know. Again, like I think there's a blessing in there because we have our programs slightly extended, meaning that we get to interact with each other like this for a longer period of time, but also sad that we have to meet in person yet. But I'm curious to hear how that interaction and with fellows from around the world, how that interaction has shaped you or shaped your practice or, you know, some reflections on the lab. Yeah. Yeah. So the lab was a huge blessing. It's really like 2010 for me, 2019, so I finished off with something, so it was the musician that was managing. And I sort of, you know, wanted to really get back into, you know, being in a space of wanting to create, you know. So when I got accepted to be part of the lab, that was great, but then actually meeting and, you know, sitting in a Zoom room of different creators from all over the world. And here we are going through this pandemic together, you know. It was really like, I would say to Emma and everyone else that, you know, it was really a counseling session for me. It was a pick me up. You know, it was like, whoa, okay, she's doing that. He's doing that. Come on, princess. What are you doing? You know, so it was a huge blessing, a huge shoulder that really you could stand on and be strong from all parts, you know, where all of us were just going through different things in different ways, you know, and really sharing the different emotional journeys everyone was going through, you know. So for me, it was a huge blessing that I could be part of that. And still find a way of being a creative because it's very easy to just sink in and drown. So I couldn't. I felt like I had people who were, who had my back. People didn't know me, but supported me creatively, you know, and really believed in what I could achieve before I even knew. So it was great that we could just, you know, project to, oh, next year, this time next year, I would have done this. So, and then to reflect again this year and say, wow, you know, last year we were actually dreaming about the things we were going to do and here we are sitting and we've, you know, all accomplished a lot and much more. It's really been a great, great experience to be part of the lab. Yeah, feelings are mutual really. I think you really also expressed my feelings, sentiments about it, especially when you spoke about this idea of us being pushing each other along, even though we've never met, it feels like we're family in a community and trying to understand each other's practice. And then also knowing when things aren't happening in your life, also knowing that it's also the same for everybody else. So it's okay to take a break and it's okay to be like, yeah, nothing's happening and that's okay. We're just going to take a break, man, because I think there's an immense amount of pressure that has been placed on creative during this time, right? Because everybody's home, everybody wants new content. Yet there's no funding for artists or very many funding, so to speak. And there's this pressure for us to create content now, get with the times, get with the times. What about us? What about our family? What about our mental state of being? Mentals exactly, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Exactly, exactly, yeah. You know, I'd love to wrap up our... Oh, sorry, I didn't cut you off. Seems like my internet is also playing some games with me. Can you hear me now? I can hear you, yes. Hello? Yes, can you hear me? Okay, cool. I was going to say, so for folks who are great, so for folks that are viewers or for folks that have not been on the Howround website before, the lab has actually done, or our fellows group, excuse me, have an article published and then a couple of web series published as well on Howround platform. So if you'd like to check those out, we did a couple of collaborative projects that we shared with everybody there. So that might be a cool thing for you to check out after our conversation today. So I guess I want to wrap up here with you, with just one last question about any advice that you may have for young and budding artists, or just for an artist in this time that is speaking direction. Oh, no pun intended there, but I guess it just... Yeah, I think for me, it's just always been important to create, right, in whichever way, whether it's the beginning part of just an idea, we have to continue to create and tell our stories. And one thing that I've always been passionate about, and I feel in South Africa, we sort of... we need a lot of development in that sense, which is why I created a platform, a space called the platform for young voices. What I was very concerned on, what are we as the youth saying about what's happening now? What are the stories that we are telling that will inform the future about what we were experiencing? What was happening culturally or politically in the country? Right now in 2020, 2021, and a space for me has always been a crucial part in developing those voices. But then running a space was expensive, and I felt, hey, maybe we need to just re-look at what a space is, and where can we tell these stories? And I think 2020 COVID sort of allowed creatives to start thinking in that way, that stories can be told anywhere, anyhow. Be brave. Don't limit yourself. We need game changers right now. We need artists... I mean, a few years last year, we didn't have Zoom theater. Now, like you're saying, we're going to have to create a whole new sector to focus on that. So I think for young voices right now, we need to hear your voices as the times evolve and change. We need to hear what is happening. You are the industries in your hands. And we are the only ones who can really be the change makers. South Africans right now are fighting a fight on corruptions. So we need to hear those stories. We need to be the ones who write and report what was happening in this time as artists are protesting against the National Arts Council and corruption stories right now. So yeah, like don't be afraid to be that voice. Don't be afraid to be heard. What a profound note to end on. What a profound note to end on. Thank you so much for sharing that. And yeah, I think there's no better way than to know that your story doesn't need a platform to stay in, right? It just needs you and your voice. So that's cool. Thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it. Thank you so much and to you and all the amazing work that you do. Thank you again. I can hear you. Can you hear me? Oh, I lost you there, but thank you. I saw that you were giving me some hours. I was giving you some pop. I was giving you props. I'm always in awe of your work on our continent. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you so much, Karishma, and to our round and everyone else watching and thank you for the time. Really appreciate being given the platform ready to share my work. And I just also want to give a quick thank to our dear friend who has been working on sign language interpretation. So, we appreciate you, Karishma, and to all the folks who are breaking a bit. We've lost our dear lady. Okay, bye. Thank you. Thank you.