 Welcome to the breakfast and plus TV Africa. We have Alexa Wilkin who is President of ICANN. He joined the conversation this morning who will be joining us. Good morning Alexa Yeah, good morning. All right, then a bit of a background Economic experts have urged the federal government to encourage digital economy rather than budden it with overtattation But usually some people would say if the country or government is out of ideologies Then taxation will be the front bonnet and according to Then too many taxes in the digital economy will subtle the growth that encourage Productivity in the sector the stated that either sector grows in its taxes remission to the government Will do likewise This is coming on the heels of the federal government's recent suspension of plans to introduce a five percent excess duty on Telecommunication services in the nation If it had gone through it would have increased the consumption Tax on telecom services to twelve point five percent The five percent tax was introduced to cushion the effects of debt servicing and the increasing fiscal deficit and low revenues This was opposed by telecom players and the entire ICT sector Also, the federal government has already imposed a large and multiple taxes on the sector despite the increasing cost of network expansion and operational costs So we talk telecommunications Indeed as the digital sector of Nigeria's economy as we have joining us Alexa Wilkins ICANN chairman. Thank you once again for being part of the show Well, thank you for having me. I'm thank you for correcting the first statement about me. I'm not ICANN president Chairman Lagos and district society. Thank you very much. That's okay. Thank you so much as well But we like to share your thoughts on this development, you know experts are saying that government should relax its taxation drive You know on the telecom sector. What are your thoughts? Well, I wonder where those experts or experts in what field Are they as part in the economic experts and the economic experts if the economic experts? I don't know the area of economy. They are looking at By and large taxation is is a tool of Economic stability and management is one of the biggest tools Used in across the world for economic growth economic stabilization Economic all economic activity if you listen to the last debate in the UK Conservative party election taxation is was the key if you listen to the US Anytime the US have the election taxation is key. So taxation is a worldwide Economic tools for the basic economic tools used for economic stabilization and growth now if in country like Nigeria That has continuously have revenue challenges revenue challenges in the fact that needs are mounting Needs are mounting every day demands are increasing population is increasing and so that needs increasing And government revenue is dwindling by the day Governor governor revenue per capita is is is reducing Like I said needs are increasing demands you in the media keep asking government pay us to government do this Government pay doctors doctors are leaving government is government that and government revenue is dwindling and their government funds Opportunities that are growing within a system for government to increase revenue I think and it is what they should be looked at holistically Because if you if you if you take it by and large there's no way government can meet services without tax Whenever in our own country and because of lower revenue government has been forced to be borrowing Especially to keep up the the capital part of our budget Coming has been forced to bring government has been in the doing in the area of initiative I'm not a propellant of a multiple taxation. No, but I'm looking at I'm a propellant of the fact that government must Be ingenious in terms of tax administration if you if you look at what I put in the past a lot of Nigeria a lot of There's a lot of Activities that have gone on task on task. So we've taken it for granted that most things are free are supposed to be free, you know so Those things that government should become yes There is always what they call pioneer status for every business or every new development They're growing business. There's a partner status and it's the legislation panel legislation That encourages certain businesses to grow and they have tax for the day for a bit for a period of time You know government in Nigeria has been implementing that there's been the mining industry agriculture and some other even the The telecom sector when they came in newly they enjoyed tax holidays You know they just because this is a new investment of government leaders. So they enjoyed tax holidays No, so there is a point in a status for every in every economy that government gives For so to me so that they can grow and stabilize it happens now the tax Holiday for the telecom sectors. I don't know how long it has lasted and because the telecom sectors Involved I mean have been involved with remember before we start only with voice voice Services only making calls. We're not going to data services We're not going to digital economy with using it to do all kinds of so it's going and it's widening the opportunities and limitless So I think government must be able also to take advantage of that and make some revenue for each other I can discharge the services. So I am not totally support of the group at the same government show rollback It's a good executive grown. It's over 20 years old now. We started telecom 20 20 2002 and it's going So if government is not taking advantage of that group of that opportunities in order to raise a venue, then I think people investors will make all the money and And smother the bank and they will keep complaining everything. I Mean and so we totally understand the fact that Taxation is very important for the growth of an economy. But if you look at the fact that all the sectors, I mean, there are several taxes in Different sectors even in the telecom sector. There's been taxation prior to this all the time And so it's over taxation that we're looking at because of the revenue issue and You know challenges that we're faced with don't you think that you know, we're as a government. We're Overdependent now. We're driving the taxation regime overly and overboard Because of the fact that we are very dependent on oil Oil is not, you know, a coming forth any longer for us, especially when you have the fact that we don't meet The quota by OPEC. We have the issues of all tests on the other hand And we also have the fact that this there's a lot of crisis You know, you talk about the Ukraine and the Russian crisis, which is not in our favor For us as an all producing economy and what do we resort to? What do we fall back to as a means of generating revenue is taxation? Don't you think that this government is overtaxing the people? No, certainly I It's a it's a nether here not there position. Let me say this We have always I suppose I always say that in the time part government has overlooked because maybe out of poor planning corruption out of What I would say incompetence in efficiencies in the system inherited the system before now government has overlooked so many areas so many tax Areas that you could have used to generate revenue So it now looks new or it now looks it's something that is out of the space For government to not start using I mean I mean making a ticket advantage of those opportunities That I hear that you're supposed to be taxed. You know, so that is where we are. Yes Every every system has various models of taxation. There's no one tax tax Tax legislation that covers every tax for us and there are some times that I mean that are domesticated Cards that are domesticated such as pay Licenses and Other things that are domesticated within other the geographical space that is talking about the states or The immediate consistent grab by local government. There are various love levels of tax if you if you carry if you go look at the the shadows the The the the shadows that contain chapter fit none of our country shot You see that there are responsibilities attached to every spell of government Now when you talk about company income tax and VAT Custom duties those taxes are domesticated at the federal which countries on behalf of the states So it's not multiple taxation. It is the layers of Taxation that are required at every level. You know, so we we use this word multi-transition loosely There's no where in the world where you have one tax that covers everything because there are domesticated For instance, if you put a mask as it's telecom if you put a mask somewhere now that mask is it It attracts ground rents It attracts ground rents now it attracts a mission control rents or a tax For that mass You know, you cannot see because you feel ground rent then the atmospheric the environmental hazard that you created that needed to be Replenished that the tax has been built into your operation will not be taken. It's not done anywhere in the world And when you have things like that, so it's no multiple now for instance in this say 5% Excited to see that was that the government chicken does for me. I'm as far as I'm concerned That was not that was that I don't know how it was thought out for the government to go back on that You know 5% is like increasing the VAT on Telecom services to 12.5% of 5% in terms of 7% so that's for me shouldn't have been an issue because the Unit increase is negligible But of course when spread over the quantum, it's it becomes a good revenue base for government The unit cost is negligible, you know, and if you look at it and I've always said it is it I'm not saying we are the best of places in the best of Situation but if you look at it generally Nigeria has one of the lowest start regime in the world Especially with VAT Nigeria's having 7.5% VAT Check everywhere Google everywhere in the world even the most post-economy look at Ghana their VAT is 27.5 It's 17.5% some VAT is as much as 32% You know, so there was still operating on that 7.5 But 5% until we get to 7.5 which was like two years ago So I'm not saying we are all okay for that But because of the demands that are attributed to government which over the years We have not structured our government to really to leave themselves of those responsibilities I'm concentrating mainly on what they're supposed to consider like security like Education like health we have Boding government with him. I mean like things are going fast. We've got the government with a lot of this subsidy Government now takes over subsidy of petroleum subsidy of education subsidy of this So government has no body and to unbundle those things now will be a brilliant challenge So the best way is for contributions, you know, we all say that UK is enjoying those that are living to the UK. How is the health care system UK funded? It's not really by government. It's really NHS trust Everybody pays for it small small little little little everybody pays for it Hold on hold on hold on when you say doctors are paid millions or billions in UK in Canada It is not funded solely by government It is funded by the people because the NHS trust in the UK you pay for it So these are the areas that people make little contribution in through taxes So that there will be there will be enough revenue to go around in providing the services That is just all that tension is all about and again Taxing the rich or taxing those who consume a service As against those who do not consume it if you put v80 it's only for condo who consume it Okay, so these are some of the the things that we need to educate people And so I will know what exactly government is doing and how government is doing and why they are doing it I don't work for government. I have never been in government But I'm talking only from a from a perspective of a Nigerian Somebody that has a little bit of knowledge in economy and you are knowledge in Income generation and expenditure. So that is just the reason I'm talking from Well, I mean that sounds very great, but to be very honest following the thoughts that you have actually put out It should be a give and take situation And so if government is going to take from the people in form of taxation, which would also help build the economy Government should be given on the other hand What are we seeing with the taxes? So your your tax getting people on almost every section people are paying But what are the dividends of the taxes you look at the road infrastructure That does not help transportation of goods, you know from different paths, you know to another It's a problem and so those who are into commerce transportation of goods and services Or movement of peasants from one place to the other for transaction. It becomes a problem So you look at some of these other issues. I mean, how is the economy? You look at some issues that would help businesses thrive the environment is not friendly government has not made that possible For people to begin to pay taxes Despite the fact that there's inefficiency with you know, the collection of taxes, which is not also on the part of the people Let's talk about the energy, you know supply or the energy sector We're talking about power now a lot of businesses are dependent on power for supply And we also understand the dynamics with you know, the subsidy and non-subsidy and we know the cost of purchasing diesel And what have you everything is on the high so it's it's trickling down And so whatever it's been given is what you're feeling if the people are complaining of overtaxing That's because the environment is not even friendly for the people to generate revenue to you know Chunking the taxes or pay their taxes not an excuse. However, but we also want to agree with me that The the sector the telecom sector the detail economy has complained over time about some sex and issues They have talked about low consumption consumer purchasing power They've talked about, you know, global issues as well And these are and also the issue of investment having a You know investors coming to invest. I mean so the issues are encompassing and how do you Aspect to tax the people even in the midst of all of this crisis doing business. Okay Okay, let me say this. I don't work for like I said, I don't work for government. I've never been in government I'm not the PRR government. I'm not the spokesman of government. I'm not the one that Becoming to tell you or the things government is doing like in a vis-a-vis the things you have Eliminated but the question I asked Very people. How do you think you said no rodent? How did you get your face this morning through a bush track? I mean you got your face today through a road built not by you but by government I mean you stay in vi and if you look at some of the roads in vi and other areas You will understand you will not be making such as a as a reporter. You will not make such No, the So let's even say this because you because you have raised this issue Just hold on sir. Just hold on. Just just hold on. You ask if you let me ask For one time. Like I said, I give that cover. I give that That carpet. I don't work for government. I've never worked for government before but again when we analyze government issues Do not make blackest statements. For instance, let us look at some of those up. We said no reason for structure I'm sure today People flying legacy but express you will tell you a different story people flying Be near a road tell you quite a different story people plan some of the Areas will tell you some different stories a week ago. You saw you saw a seaman cement power project That is that is that I mean I mean cement equipment brought in for power. You you saw you've you've been hearing a second idea bridge So these are all some of the things that yes We'll have long years of a particular deficit So some of the things happening is like a drop of water in the mighty ocean, but they keep I mean, maybe keep up late. Now if you take legal, sorry. Sorry. I'm saying this if you take legal By the 90s one fragment left Even the area you are your office keys today was a no-go area You look at what's happening along that leaky corridor of lego. It is investment in by government You look at what's happening in in in in a in a go atlantic, you know how I go I'm sure that if if it is if if it is before now your office would have been gotten Covered by water, but you see what's happened in that What they call a bar beach area the the the leaky they I mean the bar beach something You know today that something is kept government at least it's invested like you said today You say government is not you anything people don't understand the fact that We are buying the cheapest fuel in the world Out of it by government even our next door neighbors are jealous of people So but this like I said, I'm not going to defend government because that is government business Those in government are insolent to defend the defense. I'm talking as in Nigeria Today we are fighting in a war that has no boundary no front line insurgency war and you see every day How government equips bringing equipment for the military for the police and all that Alexa, Alexa, we have to go but but but um We have to go now. So these taxes. So these taxes that are being charged today universities are not federal government universities do not pay pay pay fees and Let's just have to be paid today. That's not for one trillion. Where will it come from? So all these are bought in that government has to carry and we need to find a way Yes, I'm not for over-tasking. I know that taxes should be cut out on everything But again, we find ourselves in a situation where The income coming in is becoming increasingly insufficient and government no matter who is there today They don't print money. They don't manufacture money. They do things that will raise money and that is what the citizens have to pay for And unfortunately so might might as unfortunately so but again, there must be proper management because corruption is high in government Uh, a cost of I mean collection of even these taxes is both with corruption. If you know what happened Federal in larry very service even say larry very service. How much that is still how much that they they are much But again This is something that we must we must grapple with and we must get things done and do them better For the benefit of today and for the future Nigerians Well, uh, Alexa, I wish we can actually continue this conversation because this is not Anytime We're talking about real issues here and how You know Nigerians and those who live in this economy are thriving with the government all of this is efforts And if you have a group of persons who are saying hey, it's okay not to overladen You know a particular sector, you know with taxes so that you would encourage the economy to boost Because over time some people would say it's because the government has actually relaxed in terms of you know Having different revenues of generating revenue and that that's why you know taxation has become You know the number one drive we understand all of that but over time with the little taxes that has been paid What are the dividends of it? I came through the office this morning Not, you know in space but via road I would have gotten here in real time if not of the if you look at the state of the roads They're not, you know, motorable. I mean for every time in the Iranians and Lagos were in flood Vehicles are trapped every other spaces and people are paying taxes. So what are we even saying right now? But these are some of the issues now today But we cannot continue to say that because it's going wrong in other country and we're comparing it It's it's not a comparison No, you can't look it's a comparison because Sometimes we see that Nigeria is the worst country and we talk about our country Well, nobody's saying it's a worse country. We're saying that if we're paying taxes Then we should see dividends of taxes that have been paid and it's coming It's coming that it may not be the one you want. So if you talk about flood Look, do you see how flood in Babich? One last reason flood in Babich One last and some of the actions of flood is caused by we in Nigeria When you block the drainage when you when you throw debris to the drains when you build your house Of course the next line even against But whose responsibility is it to ensure that We need to go now Because you come on air and you tell them the wrong things and when government wants to do something you you precise government on air I don't have a government. I repeat. I don't have a government. I don't have to work in government before But I'm telling us in Nigeria because we see these things happening and we kill the country And we talk about the country and we don't even make a comparison to what's happening outside this country That was the time that UK was on that flood Come on. It happens once in a while, but that doesn't mean that we didn't work on the good road to the office It doesn't mean that you've not had you've not had three bees if you had a car driving a car today Government is funding that car if you have a child in university today in the in the front Investing government is funding that child. So let not be let not be too emotive about What we don't get in Nigeria as against The little that we can even get yes, I have made the point clear. I have never been a politician of anything government I've never I've never so I'm not speaking for government But we are pretty much in Nigeria. We are sometimes open times. We talk about our country We put it down. We ridicule it and then we make people feel that nothing's happening in the country But this is part of the truth. So the legacy is building bridges infrastructures to keep things going And we don't clean it there, but we need to find the wrong ones And then we need to have a new opportunity for a new one a new mindset as to what the control can Facebook properly to key in into the purchase available The policies are there but sometimes we come on air and we pump by them And we don't make them understand that there are these opportunities. I think for me That is just the the the negative part of some of these that we don't have Well many thanks for being part of the show this morning We appreciate your thoughts, but we'll say that government Can not be taken out of the issue of governance including the The flooding and all of the issues that we're experiencing in it's still part of government's responsibility To ensure that laws are protected Yes And so we have to hold them accountable. Thank you so much. We have to let you go now And government has a role to ensure that the citizen obey the laws It's still part of them Well, that's the size of it We believe that like I always say it's it's a collective responsibility And like I would always say I would not stop to say that government has a role It is government's responsibility to ensure that lives and properties are protected It is government response We can't take them out of the equation to ensure that our daughters are free from, you know Being clogged by whatever it is. We have accessible roads, motorable roads It is their responsibility citizens have a role to play But you would also chunk, you know, much of the responsibility to government That's the size of it. We took a break when we returned. We'll be looking at the second conversation Niger orders to benefit from two billion dollars OPEC funds. Stay with us