 Hello everyone. And so welcome to our session on building the world we deserve. I'm Laura Maher. I lead the infrastructure portfolio at Segal Family Endowment. Segal is a private foundation based in New York City that's interested in how technology is reshaping society, specifically through our three portfolio areas of learning workforce and infrastructure. And so we've been working to promote a new framework for infrastructure that recognizes the interdependence between its physical digital and social dimensions. And we believe this way of thinking is a lot more aligned with the realities of our modern world. And it's this framework that we're looking forward to diving into today. So with me in this session are Michael McWhorter from Stantec. I'm Melissa Werthe from the Mozilla Foundation. So it might seem a little wacky that this renowned global design and delivery firm and the technologists who brought you the Firefox browser are equal parts of this picture, but it's exactly that type of silo that we want to break down today. Just a quick overview of our session. I'm going to be setting the stage with Segal Endowment's concept of infrastructure and its implications. I'm then going to turn it over to Michael from Stantec and he's going to talk about the work that they're doing at the intersection of what we would consider to be physical and social infrastructure. We'll then pivot over to Melissa who's going to share more about the Mozilla Foundation's focus on the intersection of digital and social infrastructure. We'll move into a Q&A with the panelists and open it up to questions from our viewers. So please just use the Q&A if you have a question and we'll try to get to you. So let's dive right in. So infrastructure influences everything. The built environment whether it's roads cutting through communities reliably safe drinking water or access to our digital world can classify the socioeconomic and racial divides, but good infrastructure on the other hand can create a more fair and just society. Here in yellow some statistics demonstrating the disproportionate impact that lack of infrastructure can have, especially on poorer and less resource countries. So 3.7 billion people have no access to internet connection, which is about 55% of the world's population. But if you break that down in terms of type of country there's 87% developed countries have access 55 in developing and just 19% in the least developed country so quite a big, quite a big gap. So for years we've been under investing in infrastructure, despite its central role in our lives. So you can see in blue some pretty darn statistics so the first is that the world faces a $15 trillion infrastructure gap that is both a new projects needed and deferred maintenance costs according to the global infrastructure hub. But the size of that gap actually triples if we want to include all the additional investments required to meet the UN sustainable development goals. You know this is more than just a budget problem we think we need to reimagine infrastructure from the ground up. So, when most of us think about infrastructure we probably think about it in one of these dimensions. We probably think of physical infrastructure, like the built world, it's roads and bridges and parks but also public utilities like trains and sewage systems and electrical grids. So we might think of digital infrastructure. These are the assets that enable digital communications cell towers broadband cable satellites, as well as the data, the hardware and software and the coding that allows them all to function together. Or we might think of social infrastructure. Those are the public institutions like libraries and schools shared public spaces like parks, or community organizations like faith centers and cultural groups that shaped the way that we interact with one another. The digital and social dimensions of infrastructure have traditionally been treated kind of a separate issues infrastructure doesn't really operate like this in the real world. You know a library is not just a storage facility for books, it forges community bonds and offers people digital resources. A road isn't just this paved surface for vehicles it's a vital artery for commerce and for social connections, one that is now governed as much by digital systems like Google maps or ways, as it is by individual drivers. If you want us to comment on Twitter, or you join a meeting like this one, you're relying on a vast network of physical structures, like cell towers transatlantic cables and server farms, as well as invisible structures like radio signals network protocols and coding. And the reality is that each of these dimensions influences the other and it's essential to recognize this interdependence of where to get smart about infrastructure. So, how can we practically take this high level concept forward. We think that we need to define design, govern and fund infrastructure differently so just take each of these concepts in turn. So the first is define. Now everyone agrees that roads and bridges or infrastructure, but what about all of the other things that make society function, like cell networks and satellite arrays, those public spaces in schools, e commerce and these tools for social interaction. Because these digital technologies are changing the way we live the divide between what we consider to be infrastructure and not is called into question. And so we need to regularly update and assess our definition of infrastructure so that all people can continue to meaningfully participate in society. So if we relegate design, sorry, design, if we relegate design into just one discrete phase that involves putting together blueprints, we miss this opportunity to achieve a broader set of goals. So it's not just what we build, it's how it gets built. It's the projects we select. It's the people we involve the labor we use the materials that we incorporate the funding structure, and the long term maintenance and stewardship models. So each of these moments offers an opportunity to ensure that the assets we're working with are sustainable and resilient and equitable beyond any one of their component parts. Govern. So governance is a really thorny question, now more than ever with the digital dimension shaking up the norms of power profit and politics, but a multi dimensional approach we think can enhance both new and existing infrastructure. There are already many governance tools that exist like engineering standards and building codes, but we think they can be augmented by adding additional disciplines like technology and data implications into the current mandates business model supply teams and regulatory bodies. Now for innovations that we consider to be new infrastructure, we should approach governance, not just by arbitrating in these small increments but by thinking about the overarching paradigms we want, and then aligning our regulation accordingly. And finally funding. So a multi dimensional approach requires new calculations for return on investment in order to better allocate and distribute funding. So on the value side, we think that investments in infrastructure should create value on multiple levels. Some value can be measured easily and immediately like bridge tools, but a much value is also indirect long term and nonlinear like curating an inclusive entrepreneurial ecosystem for long term economic growth. We need better ways to capture the total value created across all three dimensions. And then on the cost side, all dimensions of infrastructure depreciate over time, whether you're talking about a road software social structure or skills. So we think that budget should account for the total cost of infrastructure that includes lifetime maintenance and performance management. So applying a more multi dimensional ROI will show that who benefits, as well as what the total real cost is, and we think this is a critical to ensuring that infrastructure is funded adequately and sustainably and by the appropriate actors. So as you can see this is a pretty big broad picture so what does this look like an action. I'm going to turn it over to my co-panelists and they'll tell you a little bit more about how they've been implementing their work. So we're going to start with Michael McWhorter, he's going to introduce himself and tell you a little bit more about stand tech. Good afternoon, everyone. I guess it might be a different time but to, you know, like to just introduce stand tech a little bit and what we do I guess as part of the community that brings infrastructure to life following the general process that Laura has just gone through there. So jump to the next slide. Yeah, so stand techs are, you know, we're one of the largest engineering firms in the world, consulting engineering firm got 22,000 employees around the world and have, you know, representation and a lot of place around the world through a few different locations where we have offices and many more and we work in a really broad range of sectors as well. We, you know, buildings, energy and resources that's often a lot of power generation, more transmission issues like that, environmental services infrastructure, which is the transportation and then in the water sector as well. And you can tell from some of the photographs there that some of the images, some of the projects that we work on are pretty large in scale, you know, up to tens of billions of dollars of capital work and we also work down at your household scale in some situations and where it works to so we see it's kind of the breadth of what infrastructure can look like in the built environment. Onto the next slide there. And so stand tech we a tagline and we took matters kind of our promise to the people that we work with is that we always design with community in mind. And this is really the ethos that we follow that allows us to make what we consider to be holistic infrastructure we're always trying to think about the thing that we end up building how will it really serve the community that we're working with. And that sort of fundamental underpinning is really important to us we generally live and work in the environments that we will communities that we are doing up working. And so like it's personal for us to make sure that infrastructure comes through and delivers some of the community really needs well. Onto the next slide. So I just wanted to talk about like quite a unique example in some ways and talk about how that process can go through to get even a little bit more specific. So, you know, generally infrastructure needs to address a challenge that's in the community and one that I think many folks are aware of is the challenge that sanitation holds in some places around the world. And you can, you know, this is in, in Kenya, in a lovely town called Melindi and they need more infrastructure to support the proper sanitation services that the community need there. And it's an example of something that's quite prevalent in a lot of places around the world. And it can really it comes down to a question of money in some situations and it's too expensive at the moment to do that. So in places where I live at the moment in Washington DC, like, you know, there's a process involved in the cost is actually significantly higher than that per year per person to deal with sanitation but we have the infrastructure built and we have the funding to go with it. But, and places like Melindi at the moment there aren't, there's not that infrastructure and they may not even be the finances to work with it. So that's kind of the community environment that this project needs to work with and jump to the next slide please. So we're partnering there with a really amazing social entrepreneurial firm called Sanivation, that's the logo up in the top right of the screen there. And so Sanivation have lived in the community in Kenya for some cases their entire lives and the business has been running there for the last five to seven years. And so they really understand the challenges which are there and they've spent a lot of time thinking about what the community needs for proper sanitation and also how to deliver it in the environment that's there. They know that the solution that works in so many other places may not work there because of local challenges and they've really put some thinking behind well what is a unique and innovative solution that will use what's there. And they've come up with what's shown here in the diagram you kind of have, you can see the trucks those trucks are typically what is used to collect waste in cities in Kenya. They're not in a situation where they have sewers such as you might see in like so in Washington DC where I live and they bring it to a treatment plant. And that in itself is proving a very difficult way for infrastructure to work in environments like Kenya where there's not a lot of support which is required. So Sanivation have got this innovative idea and a way that they can build a slightly different type of infrastructure will serve the local needs of the community there. And so like they'll bring in biomass you know it's a waste product that's sitting around not used I'll mix it with the other waste product and they'll make a valuable product which can then be sold on to factories. So they've got this circular economy concept something that really works in with all the environment that's there and I've got a great idea and innovative idea. If you jump to the next slide. So just, you know, I won't go into the details here but what they've they've got them. They needed to have a business model that work to support this as well as just having a good technical idea, because that was one of the boundaries is always been with sanitation and developing countries it's. We know I guess how to deliver the infrastructure but how to fund it and properly run it has always been a challenge for us and so they've got a business model that when you look at serving a town of about 100,000 people. It can, you know, provide a good amount of employment for folks there and it can actually be profitable and therefore sustainable and something that could be a game breaking or game changing idea. Jump to the next slide. And so, Sanivation themselves, you know, undertook to get a pilot working and so on the left hand side that you can see the pilot factory that they built in some of the waste sawdust which they gather from from industries that create that as a waste. And then on the right hand side, you can see the product that they're producing after they've mixed it with the sludge that they're getting from the exhausted trucks that are in the operating and coming in. And then what they needed to do was to move that into a full scale. So if you jump to the next slide. So this is where Sanivation reached out to Stantec, you know, Stantec has the experience of, you know, engineering skills also project delivery skills. You know, what, who are all the actors that need to work in order for an idea a great idea and a concept to be brought through to something that's full scale so Sanivation felt that they needed some professional engineering support for that and so they reached out to. And so we've worked with them to carefully come up with the design which is, you know, designed so that it obviously will meet the overall community goal which they're trying to do it's something that will fit in with the neighbors around them. You know, we've planned and thought very carefully about how things will work at the site so the operators and visitors and other people from the community who will come to see this infrastructure and to use the infrastructure to make sure that they have, you know, good and safe and enjoyable experience there. So, all of those things kind of show that the, how we see that holistic infrastructure really comes together you need to understand the community and what the challenges you need to have, you know, a good and innovative idea that would do it and then you need to bring those. You know, engineering skills that so many of us have, you know, to bring it through to the full scale. So pass it on now to Laura again. Yeah, thanks so much I think it's just a great example of really taking the idea, the values that you want and applying it across the whole project cycle is not just the one this design phase so thanks for that. I'm going to turn it over now to Melissa, and she will tell us a little bit more about what Mozilla is doing at the intersection of digital infrastructure and social infrastructure so. Hi, thank you. My name is Melissa Werta and as Laura mentioned, I'm with the Mozilla Foundation. I know many of you here know Mozilla quite well and so I appreciate you being here. And for those of you who are less familiar Mozilla is probably best known for the Firefox browser and our role in the open source ecosystem over the last 20 years. We're a global community of engineers, developers, designers, policy experts and community organizers with over 10,000 volunteers who build and localize our products and who share this, this vision of an open internet that's accessible for all. We also engage in exploratory research to address existing systemic models in the tech industry that might be causing unintentional harm or intentional harm to the public. So, no that was great Laura. Thank you. So today I'm here to share with you a new initiative we're standing up in partnership with others, including the Segal family endowment, and to invite you all to get involved. Last year the Mozilla Foundation decided to focus on the need for trustworthy AI. We recognize that AI shapes our lives in ways we might not even see. It has great potential to help humanity, but it can also harm us. And AI makes decisions for us and about us, but not always with us. And I think one of the bigger problems is there's very little we know about how those decisions are made. So one effort to start addressing this issue. We focused on data, the collection usage, commodification and storage of data, and specifically alternative models of data governance. So this is the data futures lab at Mozilla. As you all know, we generate enormous amounts of data. Every time we click on a link, open an app, order an Uber, buy a book online, or ask our smart speaker for the weather. We're creating data that is analyzed, collated, stored, sold, and frequently used in ways we don't see and can't imagine. And while data itself is agnostic, it's currently being fed into systems designed to commodify and create value, and thus the new capital. We know that the value from this new capital almost never remains at the site of the data creation, or with the people from whom it's collected. The data economy in this sense is following very old rules. The extraction of value from the site of resources is certainly not a new story. So these current rules mechanize the stewardship of data, its value and its aggregate power away from those who create that data in the first place. Unfortunately, the harms resulting from this extraction are becoming increasingly material and severe. These harms have in some ways become more egregious than their analog counterparts because they are at first less apparent. They are invisible but deeply felt and hugely impactful. We see them in labor disputes in access to public services and in the echo chambers of information. So many of us find ourselves in today. These harms are magnified because so few actors control how data is extracted and managed. We as consumers, as users and as really as the public, have almost no insight into or control over if and when data is used against our interests or against the public interest by platforms who hold consolidated market positioning and use it to their advantage. This reality has created a dangerous precedent. And so, yes, we need regulation and enforcement, but they're not enough. We also need new pathways for both emerging and entrenched actors. Next slide, please. You know, it may be that we want to harness this data in ways that benefit individuals and communities and it may be that those platforms that I was previously talking about also have this goal of harnessing data in ways that benefit individuals and communities. So right now there are obstacles preventing innovators from building different ways of stewarding data. You know, these obstacles include the fact that innovators are disconnected from one another by sector and geography, and they're not working in concert. That the field lacks building blocks that will allow projects to leapfrog one another, and that technologists are often solving problems that are not rooted in community needs. So these obstacles sort of prevent us from building a more just and equitable data future. Importantly, in spite of these obstacles, individuals, we found that individuals and organizations around the world are working to change how data is used in society. So in the first half of this year, Missila collaborated with external researchers to create a catalog of 250 literature resources and identified 110 governance like projects. So then, you know, categorized into these seven categories that they are bucket into these seven categories that they identified. It's a little hard to see maybe but it's data commons data collaboratives data cooperatives data fiduciaries data trusts, indigenous data sovereignty and therefore indigenous data governance, and data marketplaces. But many of these are not working with each other they're not connected they don't know that each other exists, and they're definitely not sharing knowledge or collectively getting the support that they need. And so the data future lab futures lab aims to connect and support these innovators to enable them to do even better and more impactful work. It's designed really to support existing and emerging networks of practice, as they imagine and build different data future, one that balances this power dynamic between profit driven platforms and individuals and communities. And our proposal really is to support this critical work by bridging across key disciplines, resourcing invention and testing of new models, funding key aspects of infrastructure, facilitating open learning and evolving based on this learning, and you know supporting a growing network of people to resource this effort, and to engage on data stewardship issues. So that isn't a physical space. But if it were maybe we'll reach out to stand tech to build it, but we do imagine it as a home for innovation. And the central premise of the lab is that without this sort of ecosystem level support coordination and learning. This work will continue to be scattershot and insufficiently resourced and outgunned by more dominant approaches. And the lab aims to fill this ecosystem level need by reimagining reconstituting and rebalancing the rules of the game. And by changing these rules, we change the game. We're not just imagining the future we're building it. And right now, you know we believe that the future of data can be creative and equitable and just. And with participation from experts in the field, asking and answering difficult questions, the data futures lab can help get there. So, you know you can read more and join our working groups through mzl.la slash data futures it's the link at the bottom of the slide, and I really hope you will join us. Thank you. I think what I mean really strikes me about both of your work that is that you're solving problems that are rooted in community need and you know some of them are you know physical and like president proximate next to you whereas you know mzl is reshaping these digital spaces that we might not realize in the moment but that have real real world implications that will manifest themselves within our physical communities and so I think for us we see your work is you know so two sides of the same coin and just like really excited to bring these communities together so I'm going to take us off screen share so we can see one another spaces. And yeah I have a couple of questions for both Michael and Melissa but if anyone does have any questions please feel free to put them in the chat and we will get to them as as we come so. The next question I have for both of you is just that you know the idea of you know rooting things in community and, and the idea of manifesting this multi dimensional infrastructure and this holistic approach seems really simple but you know it's not always done everywhere so I was just wondering if you could speak a little bit more about you know what do you see as the barriers to implementing this approach and what are some support that you draw on when, when moving forward with your work. Michael I'll start with you. Sure. So I guess the, the story that we always see and really believe is as strong as that it takes many many people and a lot of different roles for a good piece of infrastructure to really come into existence. You know, and you know that can start with an idea needs to start with an owner somebody needs to want to have the infrastructure at the end of that. And that could be anything from a new municipal group of private company individuals maybe but somebody needs to fill their own role. And then you know they need to have obviously created the idea then you need to move on to having people that can, you know design that idea and make sure that it meets codes and standards and the type of thing that you talked about before. You know that in the south is fine but then you need someone to build it and that's quite a lot of special skills and most designers, you know don't have the wherewithal to actually go out and build the things that we're talking about. And then obviously somebody needs to operate or maintain or keep them the infrastructure going well. In terms of barriers for that. Oh, I missed the funding piece of it which is also quite important someone needs to have the money that's going to support whatever that project is maybe it's the owner but maybe it's a separate entity. And so, when we see barriers that come up, they can be at any one of the points along the and if there's not capacity and any of those in one of those roles. It doesn't matter how much capacity you have in the others because everybody has these unique skills so often actually think some of the jobs like if you. If you split up the amount of time that would take one person to do everything that it takes to move a job from a project from concept to build infrastructure there. You know if it's a, if the project is worth you know million dollars or 10s of millions of dollars you're talking about one person if they want to do it themselves it would take them their entire lifetime. So you see that you need to bring a lot of people together in order to make something like that happen into it well, and the barrier that we see is when there's a weakness somewhere along that chain which is often a capacity if that in community or environment doesn't have that specific capacity which is needed. How about you. How is it different. It's I mean yeah it's definitely similar you know I like to look at it in this framework of like people policy and products. So on the people side you know they're there are too few resources again if the funding. And at that point that Michael is just making, there are too few resources to really complete reliable data stewardship solutions. And they require a complex diverse set of expertise that can be hard to identify recruit and manage so many people with these skills, and then we need those people working together right, and then on the product side, most problem oriented solutions start from scratch and then they kind of never get to scale or they're not started with scale in mind. And without sort of that knowledge sharing of best practices it's difficult to move forward from kind of the first steps, and then at the intersection of people and product. Solutions often begin and end with data and tech and leave out the sort of the necessary learning that incorporates context and community that can really help these interventions, not only grow to scale but to also be the success that folks are looking for designing for these to be. And then lastly with policy, you know we need a regulatory environment that supports and promotes the sort of innovation, and one that is willing to enforce those policies on bad actors. And so the challenge is not these these things, the bigger challenge is not that these three things exist it's more that they actually need to work together in concert to push a vision forward. And the question is, are people willing to work together. And I think something, you know, I mean those that's where the conversation really starts. Yeah, I mean I think to the having the groups that the assembling sort of the groups of diverse both perspectives and skills that you all assemble to make the work happen is really interesting and one of the other things that kind of strikes me about what you know both of the work is that it's you're piloting different models that are you know, you know, different to the, the traditional models that are that people would normally use so you know innovation is a community oriented social venture and the futures lab is really looking at this array of ways to structure, you know data and how we access and deal with our data so I was just wondering if you could both talk a little bit more about the models that you're engaging in and sort of what are the benefits to kind of doing things in a little bit in a different way and at the same time like what are the downsides of like trying to pursue this new model at scale and pursue a new type of model at scale. Unless maybe we start with you this time. Thanks. So I think if, if we're, if we're framing the traditional models to be where platforms are mining data from the users, then we're looking at them doing so without explicit consent and then using that data to shape the algorithms that then in turn impact the markets that we're just, we're just starting to really see what what that is right. And so the problem of this sort of centralization of data within a few very powerful. So the problem is the centralization right of the, of data within very few and very powerful companies. And so this model allows so this model right this alternative model of the futures lab allows for alternative models to thrive and to shift power away from those profit driven platforms and back to individuals and communities. We don't necessarily have the answer on what all the benefits and downsides are. I imagine that the traditional models are, I guess, are you asking for. I mean, the benefits of countering the traditional models is that we're we're bringing in new thinking. And I would also say that even the way the traditional models are right now that's relatively new right I mean the space has only been around for the last 20 years or so. And so in kind of the, the timeline of humanity, there's still so much room for innovation and so I would encourage us to think of what we think of the traditional models as hey maybe they were iteration one. And maybe it's time to move or you know whatever version you want, but maybe it's time to look at a new model. And I think the benefit of that is less of this siloed corporate structure and more of a community driven decentralized way that that hopefully puts empowering people at the center. And yeah I guess, you know the standard model for delivery of sanitation services, I guess around the world is you know have you ever municipal government which raises funds maybe it's a tax maybe it's a rate maybe it's a bill like I get a bill in the month every month, so a month in the mail every month. And, and that that then pays for the service and I think it's really interesting. Often working the sanitation sector like folks are looking for models that get away from that and they're often looking for complete something that's completely sustainable and like pays for itself. And it's really hard to do that like it's not how it happens in Washington DC or somewhere else like people have to pay money in it's a, it's a, it's a service which is required and someone needs to find a way to pay for it. So the beauty of what Sanivation have done is that they have, you know, thought outside the box bought something else into it, and they've you know understanding what community needs and what the markets were because they've produced a product that the market will then pay for which then can fund the whole chain going backwards. So, and then what we've got in that situation is they've really set up a true public private partnership approach they've really partnered with the local municipality that they understand what the municipality is great at doing and what is challenging for the local municipality and they, you know, work together in a really close partnership with a lot of dialogue with them. So Sanivation are bringing in this idea and they're bringing in, you know, the private part of it that can set it up and make it run. And so I think like that. You know, it's really easy to say P3 and public private partnership and it looks different in different places. But like the way that they've really done a deep dive and found something that actually ticks all the boxes along the whole way there. And that's what really makes what they've done great and I think for anyone else is trying to model like that as well that same depth of understanding of the situation that they're working in communities markets and all that sort of stuff will be really critical to doing it. Yeah, I mean it sounds like it's not necessarily formulae gather just bringing together the right people with the right skills and understanding the context and really adapting it for that. And kind of on that note too we had a question come in that you know says you know most of the time the problem and the people with the skills to solve the problem aren't always in the same place so you know how what are some ways that we can we can better deal with that. Well, maybe I mean I can talk about that with Sanivation I mean, you know that this this project happens in Kenya and I live in Washington DC. We actually had, you know, people from our team from around the world we have folks in the UK folks in India, all contributing as well to the solution that we bought for there's a German involvement as well. And so like, we're blessed at the moment with an amazing resource in the internet and what it can allow us to what we're doing right now and we can share ideas and information. You know faster than you would ever imagine I see your side story when I started my engineering career there was a gentleman that I work with who remembered doing all those calculations with the slide rule that I couldn't even tell you how to do that I can't believe how you could do work, without a computer but it happened for so long. And so we have, we have a lot of things that can allow us to work across that. Of course what we found doing that work was it's, it's, it's one thing for us to have the ideas and in America but like we needed a local partners also we actually did team with local engineering partners there as well who had skills that Stantec doesn't have because they understand the Kenyan environment better and so we were able to make that. So we recognize our weaknesses and their strengths and we made sure that we were able to use those to bring something that was really appropriate for the local environment and so I think combination of technology and building relationships would be my answer to the question that way we can bring anything we need anywhere. I know Mozilla to has a global network of people and thousands and thousands of folks so maybe talk a little bit about the ways that you all can be in the network and really make it more than some of its parts. Yeah. And also I kind of, before I get into that I wanted to, I feel like this question is also saying like how do these people find each other, right. And so I want to name that one of the challenges is language. And I don't just mean, I mean both literally like the language that we're speaking in English, and also the vocabulary. And so a lot of groups around the world what we found, especially with this data stewardship work is that this again this work is happening. And a lot of groups around the world have always been challenged, you know, are challenging notions of colonialism via the internet, or the idea of ownership over data. And since that, since that implies that you can give it or sell it away. So I think there's a lot to learn from groups that are already looking at what we call data. In what we're calling innovative ways. And so I'd love to, I would love to shine a light on those voices and approaches and kind of meet them where they are asked them questions and some of those questions are like how do we, what do they need from us, you know, how can we resource their work. How can we learn from them in an equitable fashion that isn't about appropriating or colonizing. And so to your point Laura like yes we do have this network of community members around the world. They bring us so many valuable questions and insights on everything that we do we you know we have the software infrastructure to, of course uplift those questions and approaches that they're working with. The work and the, the work that we really try to focus on is about finding connections that matter that are that can grow and kind of grow out, you know, increase these concentric circles of folks working together. But ultimately I think this is a really difficult challenge of, if these, if these people exist in the world how do they find each other and how do we do it so we are not in the middle of that. Yeah, I think to the sort of that notion of one like finding each other but two, once you do find each other having a shared vocabulary really speaks to the ideas of like, what are the foundations that we're working with like what are these foundational changes that we need what are some of those just like understanding structure so I was wondering actually if you could both, you know, tell me if there was one thing, like one massive foundational change that could happen maybe over the next three years that you think would have the longest term impact what would that foundational change be. Yeah, I mean, I think I don't know if you can do it in three years but I think you can take a step towards it. I mean, and that is your capacity building like we find, you know, same before that the if it's complicated infrastructure like there are obviously by definition, you know, technical challenges with making it happen but sometimes even the simplest of infrastructure that we will know how to do well. It's hard to get to work because somewhere along the chain that I described before there's not the capacity that you need it could be that you know the design firms don't have the experience that they need to get it right and they miss something with the geotechnical work and then it doesn't work or maybe the contractor gets a good set of plans but they don't build it. And they make a fundamental mistake in there and so the thing falls down or maybe the operation staff like had really had the fundamentals explained to them and didn't get it so that building the, you know, identifying all those needs for capacity in a situation then building that's the fundamental change that can really bring things through it. That's more than a three year effort but it's a it's a worthy one. I think the other thing too is like that just touch on maybe with Sanivation that goes back to a question someone asked in the text as well. They, you know, having people that are ready to fund innovative ideas and things that get off the ground I mean I think since innovation situation like if you look at their business model it makes sense, but they need somebody to take it and back them a little bit to get that thing going and seeing it so I do think like, you know, folks looking for ways that you can fund development projects like that in a slightly different way from, you know, the way that it might happen at the moment would be really beneficial. Yeah, I think absolute my my answers would absolutely be about like capacity building also about that social infrastructure that you've talked about Laura, you know it's really about connecting people and projects and understanding you know that whole, the whole is greater than some of its parts piece. And I think I would just add like if we're looking at a three year timeframe, I would say like we need a we need a better regulatory environment we need to, you know, how we need to know how to remove the current barriers that keep people out and implement new policies that enable more innovation and more connection and more learning across the board. Yeah, we have another question that came in from the chat. We're talking a little bit about, you know, needing buy in from government and local authorities and so, you know, how do you kind of in the challenge you how do you kind of get that buy in in a timely manner. I know Michael you talked a little bit about this with innovation. And I know, maybe most you could touch a little bit on Mozilla's work with getting with working alongside governments and and really kind of pushing the types of policy paradigms that we want to see instead of this. Again, trying to kind of play black and white with one thing at a time every time it comes up, you know, thinking through like what are the, what are the buy-ins that we need to kind of build the types of data and digital structures that we want to see long term. Yeah, maybe so innovation side of it. They, they spend a lot of time really making sure that they understood their, their local partners. And doing that, like they have an MOU like a form of a contract with the municipality that they're working with where they've both parties have sat down and described what they want to get from the arrangement and how it how they can support one another to do it. So it was it was good old fashioned relationship building that made it happen. I do think working through local governments and making sure that they're on site is really important like another idea that comes to mind is we are lucky enough to be working with the Millennium Challenge Corporation from the US here which is supporting the Millennium Challenge account in Mongolia with a really important water supply project there at the moment. And so that model there you know the Mongolian government is delivering the work. You know with with support from MCC in the US and like the fact that there's that local ownership is allows us to make sure that we are doing the project properly within local conditions and constraints and requirements and also allows like good dialogue like I was just going before to really happen in a way that we couldn't be doing it if we didn't have people like really can form those detailed relationships which make sure that the challenges that can come from the government or entities regulating things in a not fully holistic way they can be overcome through good sharing of information. Sure and I guess from the side we can. I mean I believe we're in the business of solving problems and everybody has a problem and so it's more about or a challenge I should say that we can all work together to solve and so when it when we're talking about getting buy in from authorities government authorities. It's about framing the issue in a way that matters to them and their constituents and making sure that they are on board that means a lot of working with local organizations individuals and partners. And it's not about us pushing our agenda by any means it's more about saying asking well what do they think would be best for their constituents, and we see a lot of these conversations as learning opportunities right. I know that sounds like such a line but we do see a lot of activities. The stuff that you know tech and the digital and the data and is it mine and is it yours and who does it belong to or does it isn't even a thing with ownership around it. These are new questions. These are brand new questions. This is a very new environment and we're using a traditional system or you know a system of laws to try to define that. And I think we have this responsibility just as members of our communities to try to make that better and for the for these quote unquote traditional systems to serve our modern needs. And so I just think it's more about we're working together to sort of solve these problems. And if we can frame these issues in that way then it's less like, are we pushing our agenda and more are we helping them sort of move their community in the direction that they wanted to go. I love kind of what what both of you said just you know it's about good old fashioned relationships it's about asking people what they need it's about asking people what they think and solving problems together I think that's sort of the core of you know what we what we think of you know is needed going forward. We've got about five minutes left so I feel like we kind of we stayed at that 30,000 foot level and so for maybe the last couple of minutes I want to ask each of you. You know just maybe what is one thing that people could do in their daily roles like that they could start to make kind of take a step to make that, you know, to make that holistic viewing of infrastructure and that really kind of inclusivity and equity in their work. You know part of their daily routine so yeah just a minute or two I'm kind of like what the what the next steps for people could be and Michael why don't we start with you. I feel, you know just some themes that were touched on there. You know I think everyone can implement them every day and what they're doing. I think a lot of the folks who are listening in here are engineers and one form or another and looking at it and I guess I'd challenge you to make sure that you truly understand the situation that you're working in the community that you're working with what it looks like and and make sure that you start with them in mind and then and finish that way as well. I think also, you know in terms of the capacity building thing like that can come from us as individuals like it's great when it comes from from larger entities but we don't need to wait for that like if you are someone that needs mentoring like reach out and find someone who can help you and learn a little bit from them that's that's more experienced engineers are better simply because they've got things wrong and it's better to learn that by asking someone else about what they got wrong rather than doing it yourself. And if you do have that experience and you look around and you see somebody who could do us a mentoring I think that is also a really good opportunity and doing that it can be anywhere it can be across borders that can be inside your office or that's create a stronger community of engineers and scientists that can bring forward this sort of thing I think that will really provide a you know that the change that we need and we can do it from the ground up. Absolutely agree with everything Michael just said and I would perhaps then I'll end up just repeating what he said but I would also say, kind of, you know, three things in particular is have conversations with those around you. You know what is what is around from this perspective and the thing that we're talking about right now like about personal data and what is data to you, you know challenge your assumptions and reach out to others in the spirit of learning. And I wanted to tell us you know that like we are our data, we are comprised of our data, but in my sort of reflective journey I've kind of thought that data is just actually it's a measure of our relationship with something else. And so then the shape that our data makes of us this visual or diagram is actually the negative space right it's the shape of us. That's not that's not who I am not a negative space. And so it's like it's the part understanding sort of the forces that play and kind of refusing to really dive into it as much as I can, or refusing to let myself be commoditized in that way as much as I can as much as one person can. I think the second thing is start thinking about ways to decrease the amount of data you're sharing, unless it's on your terms right so then what does consent mean and and having these conversations and thinking through your relationship with what's going on day to day. I think because you know let's start with ourselves first before we start designing for others. And then, lastly, and then this is not sequential in anyway, but like, get involved, you know join a working group with us. I think you can find more information on our website or in our email that I know Laura's going to put up at the end. But, you know, it's think about it learn about it and then like get involved have these conversations with others and really take action in your community I think and in this world that we're all building together. Yeah, and just, I think kind of mine would be you know something that we tried to do here today which is just to see across silos to you know engineers are the frontline designers for physical spaces for digital spaces and social spaces and the choices that we make become the default choices for everyone so you know thinking through, you know, what do you want those default choices to be and like what do we want, what kind of world do we want to build together I think is really important. Yeah, as you know coming from, you know I see go family endowment we're funders we're conveners we bring people together but we really look forward to partnering with people like you all on the call who are doing the hard work and who are kind of making it happen on the ground so you know thank you so much for for joining us today we have some some more information on the slide if you want to get in touch with us and we just really look forward to you being a part of our broad broad wacky community so have a have a good rest of the have a good rest of the conference.