 Good morning and welcome to the 10th meeting of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. Apologies have been received from Natalie Dawn and I'm pleased to say Evelyn tweed is here as her substitute. Our first item of business today is the decision to take item 3 in private. Are we all agreed? Great. Thank you very much. We are agreed. Item 2 is on evidence session on the Scottish Government's benefit take-up strategy. of the strategy is a requirement under the Social Security Scotland Act of First strategy was published in October of 2019. This is the second strategy published on the 21st of October. The previous Social Security Committee did an inquiry into benefit take up publishing its report in March of last year. I would like to welcome to the meeting Minister Ben McPherson. Joining the minister in person we also have Dr Rory Sutherland, who sy'n allu gael pethau i erdraith gylur yn gyffodelm ei ddim yn g offendibol ar y cyfleMEG. Good morning everyone, and thanks for inviting me to give evidence today on our latest benefit take-up strategy published and laid before Parliament on 21 October. This new strategy builds on the 2019 strategy and sets out the Scottish Government's approach to encouraging and supporting the take-up of Scottish benefits, as well as providing our best estimates of the take-up rate for the benefits that Social Security Scotland is currently delivering. Although publication of the strategy is a duty placed on Scottish ministers by the Social Security Scotland Act 2018, it is much more than that. Ensuring that all forms of assistance are available and accessible to those who need them and that everyone is able to take up their entitlements regardless of personal circumstance is a fundamental priority for the Scottish Government and something that we are very enthusiastic about. It is important to note that reserved benefits of course also play an important role in maximising people's incomes in Scotland, and it is disappointing that the DWP still do not have any corresponding strategy for ensuring that those are taken up. I genuinely hope that that changes. At the heart of this refreshed strategy is a recognition that benefit take-up is part of a bigger picture. It is one pillar of a holistic Scottish Government approach to maximising incomes, which itself underpins commitments related to tackling poverty and recovering from the economic impacts of the Covid-19 pandemic. The new strategy is built around five key principles, which have been developed through extensive stakeholder engagement and experience panel research. In delivering the initiatives and interventions set out in the strategy, we will one, prioritise person-centred approaches, two, communicate and engage effectively, three, bring services to people, four, encourage cross-system collaboration, and five, continuously learn and improve. Each of those five principles taken alone will be important, but bringing them together in the new strategy means that they will work in combination, yielding far greater impact. That benefit take-up strategy takes a whole-system approach and provides a framework in which we will continue to encourage and support people in Scotland to access the assistance that they are due. I am now happy to take any questions that the committee may have. Thank you very much. Indeed, minister, that is very helpful. In the first set of questions, I would like to call Jeremy Balfour, please. Good morning, minister, and good morning to your team. It is good to have you back again. I suppose that I am just looking forward, which is a more looking forward one. At page 48 of the report, we have a commitment to undertake a review of adult disability payment in the summer of 2023. I am just wondering whether that review will look at has it been a safe and secure transition? Has it been done with dignity, fairness and respect? Or will it look at reviewing the descriptors of what ADP might look at in the future? How wide are the views? If I could ask you to look into your crystal ball, depending on what those recommendations are, is it your initial thinking that those recommendations would be implemented by the Parliament if there was agreement on it, but in this session, or is it something that you are looking for in the next parliamentary session? Slightly off topic, but I am happy to answer as much as I can at this juncture and at this point. Of course, the commitment to the review of ADP in 2023 was made by the previous cabinet secretary, Ms Somerville, and I would refer Jeremy Balfour to her comments at that time. What the review is going to include and how it is going to be undertaken is currently under active consideration by the Scottish Government, and we will be happy to update Parliament via the committee on that in due course. I can say that it is about, as has been stipulated by the previous cabinet secretary, it will be looking at how ADP has performed at that juncture, but also considering what changes could and the recommendations that will receive as part of that review should take place. There is consideration that will have to be undertaken as to what the relationship of that will be with passported benefits, so there will be discussion required with the UK Government. As I have alluded to previously, UK Minister Chloe Smith has already corresponded somewhat on passported benefits and I look forward to discussing that constructively in due course. Also, there will have to be active consideration as to the conclusion of case transfer and, as the member will know, one of the points that we have to consider as a Government as we are undertaking both the two pieces of work of starting and opening for application new benefits and also undertaking case transfer. When those two aspects of work are working in tandem, we at the moment have to consider the eligibility criteria to be corresponding for both so that there is equity in that regard and also consideration around passporting. I am afraid that that is all I can say at that juncture on the ADP review, but it has always been our intention and I am happy to confirm and emphasise that today to update the committee in due course on the review. Thank you very much indeed, minister. That is very helpful. Before I bring any other colleagues in if they are wanting to indicate that they wish to do so of the spring and pamdyngan glancy shortly, I wonder if the minister could outline why the Scottish Government picked the five principles that underpin the policy. Is there any particular reason why those five particular principles were chosen? The five principles, as I alluded to in my opening remarks, have been developed through our extensive engagement with stakeholders and people with experience of the social security system. They build on the themes of the previous take-up strategy, which were removing social barriers to access, addressing costly and complex access and improving access to information. The five principles have been considered and decided upon because of consultation with the stakeholder take-up reference group, and the learning gained through the projects that are funded through the benefit take-up and income maximisation funds. Building on all that experience, insight and feedback, we have decided on the five principles. In terms of those consultations and feedback that you have had with stakeholders, how has Covid impacted on your ability to ensure that the take-up of Scottish social security benefits has been strong? Covid has impacted all of us, not just in terms of the economy and our everyday lives and, of course, the impact on the health service. However, even as MSPs, it has affected our ability to engage with constituents. It has affected our approach to improving benefit take-up in ways that are reasonable, just to note that. However, we responded and adapted the ways in which we interact with clients and stakeholders as you would expect. We continue to gather insight to understand better how the pandemic is driving longer-term behaviour. That may impact on the channels that we use to promote benefits over the longer-term. For example, we may use radio and TV more and print advertising less, for example, because people are not necessarily picking up printed materials in the same way that they might have in the same settings. We will always be mindful that we are required to use a range of channels to be as inclusive as possible. It has had an effect and it has made an impact to—sorry, there is a radio going off—let that silence first, if I may, convener. Of course, it has had an impact, but throughout the period, Social Security Scotland has been active and proactive at promoting our benefits in the ways that we can. I will let Kirsten come in on that in a moment to elaborate a little further from an agency perspective. Members will have seen whether it is via social media or via the different mechanisms in which we have sought to promote benefit take-up both through stakeholder engagement and in the media. There has been a proactive position throughout the pandemic. Kirsten, do you want to add anything further to that? Yes, thank you minister. Good morning, committee members. Yes, throughout Covid, it did impact on our ability to reach audiences, including previously we would have used things like out-of-home advertising, so advertising at bus stops with people staying at home and also with the priority to push health messages. That was an option that was taken away from us. We also have found in the past intermediaries, so people in community groups and community halls were an excellent way in which to get the message out. However, through Covid, that did reduce what I would say as we are starting to see that return. We provide materials to stakeholders on a regular basis and the order from us literature, which we are starting to see come back as restrictions have eased. However, with the benefits that are alive at the moment, with the parental audience in particular, we have always found that online channels have been highly effective. To give an example with Facebook advertising alone, we managed to drive 50,000 applications in the last financial year. That was always our key channel for promoting the benefits that we have at the moment, so that managed to continue quite effectively. On intermediaries, another thing that is probably worth flagging is that, through Covid, we made sure that the word of mouth that got out through support services was able to continue by providing stakeholders with as much information as we can to help them to promote onward our benefits. We moved our engagement with stakeholders to online. We had 36 events and we reached a total of 2,818 stakeholders through that. Our local delivery service also held 754 meetings with stakeholders. Today's awareness of our benefits was between the period of September 2020 to September 2021. Our resources over that time were accessed 2,500 times. That enabled people to print them off themselves. We are aware that people were putting that in things like boxes, food parcels that were being delivered to people, so that information is still getting out. I hope that that was helpful. That is very helpful. It is interesting that the Facebook advertising driving such demand and perhaps runs counter to the current dichotomy around the use of social media, so that is very helpful to note. I will bring Pam Duncan-Glancy in here, followed by Emma Roddick, please. Thank you very much, convener, and good morning, minister and your team. My question at this point was almost a kind of supplementary, I think, from my colleague Jeremy Balfour's question about disability benefits and carers benefits. In the take-up strategy, it is noted that you have highlighted that it is difficult to identify those people and those individuals. What engagement have you had with disabled people's organisations and carers organisations to help you to do that? What research are you undertaking in order to help to identify who is eligible for disability benefits and carers benefits since the previous committee recommended that research be done? I will bring Ruri in shortly, but I will say just a bit in the first instance. One of the challenges that we face collectively is that it is not possible to estimate fully 100 per cent accurately take-up of disability and carer benefits using existing household data—for example, the family resources survey—but using existing survey data to calculate the eligible population for disability benefits would, unfortunately, result in an inaccurate estimate of take-up. That is due to a number of factors with the survey not capturing certain aspects. For example, all needs and day-to-day limitations that are required in the assessment for eligibility and disability benefits. There is an element of discretion in how the actual assessments for disability benefits are undertaken and benefit award decisions are made. As a result, those who are determined to be eligible through the surveys may not match those who are determined to be eligible through the assessments. There are challenges with the data and disability. It is self-reported in the surveys, which means that there is no objective measure for the eligible population, which I appreciate partly why you are asking the question. As part of the engagement in order to make sure that we are doing what we can, I will let Ruri talk about the actual stakeholder engagement that has taken place, because officials have led on that. Of course, reflecting back and looking forward, there are strong commitments within the strategy to ensure that we are doing what is required and what we can do to reach out to those who are hard to reach groups and those who are more vulnerable to inform and, as I said, encourage and support as much as possible. Do you want to say a bit more about that, Ruri? I can speak to your first point about engagement with stakeholders. The minister might want to bring in my colleague Vanna Anastasiadu on the analytical point, secondly. In terms of stakeholder engagement, we have a number of, as members will know, advisory groups and reference groups in the social security policy area, who are regularly engaged in all matters relating to their particular client base. More specifically, the benefit take-up stakeholder reference group is an avenue in which we have taken conversations about establishing the eligible population. Although, as the minister pointed out, she will say that it is a difficult population to estimate because of the broadly subjective elements of the disability assessment that are required to establish eligibility. Without putting everyone through that assessment process, it is almost impossible to establish robustly what the eligible population would be. I am overstepping into the analytical territory that I am less familiar with. It is helpful that you have set out the engagement with stakeholders, which is extremely important. Just before I bring in Vanna Anastasiadu and if I may convener, I want to add that our strategy report, as I said, discussed the limitations associated with estimating eligibility for disability and carer benefits, but it has also identified the steps that we are taking to improve the data quality so that we can measure the take-up of disability and carer benefits in a more accurate way. Those steps include adding or amending questions to the existing household surveys, as well as exploring the feasibility of using health record data, if we can, in due course. There are proactive steps under way to try to improve the situation. If I may bring in Vanna Anastasiadu for any further comment, you may wish to add. I think that the key point to reflect on is that to measure accurately the eligible population for disability and carer benefits currently would not have the necessary tools. We are focusing on a long-term project that we have started years ago and is on-going, but we are focusing on improving those tools to allow us to estimate accurately the eligible population for disability and carer benefits. If I could just expand a little bit more on what the minister set out and what we have set out in the second strategy report, we have developed a comprehensive approach. As a result of engagement with analysts, academics and our counterparts at other Government departments at DWP. Gathering all that information and evidence, the approach that we have come up with involves three distinct steps. One step is to use individual-level data from our management information that is going to be collected and recorded by Social Security Scotland. That information will help us to understand better the gaps between the disability benefits, decision-making process and the current disability related survey questions. Another step is to improve existing questions or adding new questions to the population surveys and again to get us closer to identifying the truly eligible population for disability and carer benefits. A final, longer-term step is linking survey data and administrative data. Before data linkage can be put in place, we will seek to improve as much as possible the disability-related questions in existing surveys, as the minister explained, but also explore the feasibility of using health record data. However, data linkage is the most robust long-term solution that would also resolve, to an extend at least, the issue that we have with self-reporting nature of the surveys. I hope that that provides a little more context in the approach that we are undertaking to get us to a place in which we can report, take up, or disability and carer benefits with confidence. You have acknowledged in the strategy that stigma plays a big part in low-benefit take-up what is the Government doing to tackle that stigma? First of all, I record that we had a good discussion on this in the debate last week, and Emma Roddick made some really important points in her contribution to that debate. We have a collective responsibility as a Parliament and also more widely as a society to deal with the issue that has, through some avenues, been created and encouraged wrongly, and through other avenues has been appeased. Rather than looking back, let's look forward collectively as to how we commit, as a Parliament as a whole, as I urged in the debate last week, to reduce and, in time, remove any sense of stigma of claiming social security, because we have a social security system for a reason that is to help and support when we agree as a society that that support should be there and that can be in a number of ways, as we know. I want to make that general more conceptual point in the first instance, because it is really important. We have an important responsibility and opportunity here in Scotland to change that, but it will take some time. The passing of the 2018 act was part of that, but there is more work to do, and it is about a change of social attitudes and a change of culture, and every politician can be a leader in that, as can others, including the media. There are, obviously, questions to ask that we have to consider as a Government. How do we proactively do that? We do that through our media output and our contributions in the chamber, but also through the general work of Social Security Scotland. We have, first of all, worked hard to make sure that applying for benefits is as accessible and supportive as possible, starting from the position that access to social security is a fundamental human right, and it is a collective, a shared investment that we are making together as a society. I would take this opportunity to encourage people to take the time to check what they may be entitled to and to apply for the money that they are due. That is the fundamental message. Clients who have accessed a payment or know someone else who may be eligible, we do what we can to encourage them to pass the information on. If they have a good experience, we encourage and try to support them to tell others about it, as that may make the difference for others in terms of the other person applying or not. Like I said, parliamentary colleagues and others can share information on benefits, whether it is putting a poster up in an office or encouraging local community centres or other entities to display information, sharing posts on social media—which I know that colleagues do regularly, which is extremely helpful. Kirsten talked about the success of the Facebook initiatives that Social Security Scotland has undertaken and the wider social media that it undertakes, so we can all share that as widely as possible. This is a collective responsibility and I appeal to everyone who is commenting on those issues to speak positively about social security, whether it is politicians, the media or other stakeholders and individuals, so that we can collectively move fully to a culture where stigma around claiming benefits is reduced and then eradicated. We create a society where we believe in people being able to access support and getting support when they need it and that we make that investment collectively and do so with passion and positivity and commitment as a populist as a whole. You touched a little bit on the role of the media in supplementing your efforts. What would you expect or want them to do to help you to drive down stigma? First of all, I should say thank you to all those in the media who share information about Social Security Scotland. Rightly, part of the role of the media is to hold people to account and to scrutinise and to report. That is absolutely right, of course. When there is a positive story to tell and there is information that is helpful to share, I would urge the media to do that. I am grateful to all the individuals and the media outlets who have done that so far and thank them in advance for what they will no doubt do in the future. There is a point that we really need to get away from—we really need to end the time or end instances of the media—some aspects. Thankfully, in the minority, using terms such as benefit cheats and scroungers and phrases like that, they help no one. We really need to not be in a position where such phrases are printed in articles or otherwise and instead get to a position where we scrutinise the system but we want to build integrity in the system and in the idea of social security. That is a collective responsibility, including the media and all of us as politicians. I wanted to ask a few questions about the take-up of low-income benefits. Specifically, looking at the strategy, I know that those are estimated figures, but it suggests that about 59 per cent of the funeral support payment has been taken up. I wonder what work has been undertaken to evaluate why that was the case. For most people, given that this is a very sector-specific discussion that people will have when they are trying to arrange a funeral for a loved one, why do you think that that is so low and what more is being done with the sector, for example, to be able to promote that benefit within the services that they are delivering? It seems quite an easy opportunity to have that conversation and raise that opportunity for access to that benefit. I thank Mr Briggs for his questions on this important issue. Through the course of the bill in 2017-18, that was an area that I was particularly interested in and engaged in through that process. I am touching on the question of what are the reasons for the relatively low take-up of funeral support payment and how we are working and seeking to address that. We know that not everyone who is eligible for funeral support payment will apply, as many people plan ahead and make provision to cover the cost of their own funeral, so that is a particular issue to note. The relatively low take-up figures for funeral support payment can be explained to an extent by the fact that our methodology of estimating take-up is at an early stage. We are in the early stages of that. There is some degree of uncertainty attached to the benefits take-up estimate. I can bring Vanna in on that in due course, if you have any follow-ups, Mr Briggs. All that is taken in context is important to emphasise that funeral support payment is working well. It has supported over 9,500 bereaved families since launching in September 2019, and it has provided over £17 million of support to those who need it most. We have made it easier to apply and, as a result, we have increased the number of successful applications and we have approved 78 per cent of applications compared to 68 per cent of applications being authorised by the UK Government between 2019-20. There is a successful picture. You talked about engagement with the sector. The sector was one of the early meetings that I took up as minister. We are well connected with the organisations that represent the sector and have an open dialogue on their concerns and on how, together, we promote the benefit and take-up of it. That was one of the points that we discussed in my meeting with them, and we are engaged collectively on how we improve that. I thank you for that response. With that in mind, why has the Government decided not to include targets for uptake within the strategy in trying to drive forward uptake in all those new benefits? What was the rationale behind that? First of all, we are in a position where there are not targets within the UK system. I am not stating that as a political point, I am just stating it as a point of context. Setting targets to improve take-up would require having established a take-up baseline. It is related to the data question and where we started off from. We only published our initial estimates of take-up of the benefits that are administered by Social Security in this second take-up strategy. That means that the estimates may change as we improve our methodology and our underlying data. As a result, the baseline that we could use to inform the setting of targets is still in development. That is one of the key points. Any target that is set now would be entirely arbitrary, so we want to set targets that are based on a set of baseline data that is properly robust. However, even with a baseline that we will establish in the future, setting different targets for different benefits would likely lead to a potentially unfair system where some benefits are deemed to merit higher take-up than others. We would need to be careful and cognisant of that. The purpose of our take-up strategy is to ensure that clients are aware of their eligibility and to promote take-up and to ensure that people are encouraged and properly supported to access Scottish Social Security assistance. The strategy is very proactive in how does it support and encourage and inform as much as possible, but at this juncture, because of where we are in the journey of Social Security Scotland's establishment and the development of benefits here in Scotland, setting targets would not be appropriate at this juncture for the reasons that I have set out. However, we will continue to look at that matter as we progress into future strategies. When we visited Social Security Scotland last Monday, part of the discussion that we had was about groups that might find it difficult to access forms, filling out forms and technology challenges. In terms of the group that is not applying, what work has been done to identify whether or not that is really the key behind people not wanting to fill out huge numbers of forms, language or reading barriers? That accessibility point is extremely important. I will bring Kirsten in in a second to talk about how the accessibility of Social Security Scotland's communications and application processes is fundamental to the design of the IT infrastructure, the design of the forms that are created in the language and then producing materials in a way that is as inclusive as possible. In different languages, we are required and also in Braille and all the different ways that we quite rightly are creating materials in order to make sure that they are accessible. However, one of the key factors in the creation of Social Security Scotland's service has been the theme that ran through the discussions through the creation of the bill and has rightly and strongly been part of how we have considered the application process for clients through the journey of the creation of different benefits and services. We want people to be able to access the service in the way that is right for them. If that is online, our online interface needs to be as accessible, clear and user-friendly as possible. IT teams at Social Security Scotland are very focused on that and are delivering that. We also want people to be able to pick up the phone and speak to Social Security Scotland if that is their preferred method of application and communication, to be able to do it on a video call if that is their preferred interface to engage with the service, to be able to meet an adviser in person to help them through the form if that is their preferred way of accessing the service. We are providing all of that. That is why the local delivery teams are so important, which are about to be initiated country-wide and, of course, have been in place in the three pilot areas through the pilot of the CDP. It is that extra contribution, that extra commitment and that extra resource to make sure that people can access both the service and the benefits in the way that is right for them. That is at the heart of what we are providing. I think that that is really important. That is why I am so enthusiastic and passionate about the fact that we are providing those local delivery teams, because I think that they will make a difference for those who maybe are not as confident online or are digitally literate or do not want to do their form themselves and need a bit of support on that. I do not know if you want to say anything further about that. It is probably worth flagging that every part of the development of the new service that we are doing with the people who will use it. We do user testing of all the different elements, including the sampling of the people that we work with to develop that. We make sure that protected characteristics are part of that process. That is testing everything from how they interact with the application form online, if it was a paper version, how they would want to use the local delivery service. As an example of an improvement that we will be coming through as a result of the feedback from those users, in the adult disability payment form there will be photographs included along with the questions to help with interpretation and understanding of what that is asking people for, as an example of ways in which we are going to make that easier to access. The minister had highlighted about some of the other improvements that we are making on the communications side. The first thing that somebody needs to know is that the benefit exists. We proactively produce materials in 11 community languages, including British Sign Language. We make sure that we disseminate that via the stakeholders that have the relationships with the people who require it in those formats to get the message out. Once people start interacting with the service, it is in excess of 100 languages that are available for people to interact with us. We also produce things in easy-read formats for those who require it. The important aspect is what the minister focused on. It is that inclusive communication and the choice in how people want to interact with us, be that online, phone, post or face-to-face with at least 400 local delivery colleagues who will be working across the country once all the benefits have been introduced and people have been transferred to the new system. Another thing probably to flag is that the Scottish Government has made provision for advocacy support for those who may require that to enable them to access their entitlements. To ask whether there are any plans to make Scotland's baby box a for more accommodating to parents with disabled babies, be that more items in the box are provided to low-income families? Thank you, Mr Trudry, for that question. It is not an area of responsibility for myself as Social Security Minister but more for health ministers. If we note that point and perhaps yourself and the relevant minister could engage on that, I would not want to answer on behalf of another minister. I think that that would be more appropriate. Thank you, minister. I am more than happy for us to look at how we can take that forward with ministerial colleagues to make sure that that point is answered. I think that it is an interesting point for us to note and to pursue. Do you have a further question, Mr Trudry? Thank you very much indeed. The next question is from Marie McNair. Thank you, minister. It is good to see you again. Unfortunately, access to many of the Scottish benefits is dependent on being in receipt of reserved benefit. How have the UK Government responded to requests from a more unified and strategic approach to maximising take-up? If that response was disappointing, how do you intend to follow up? As I said at the beginning, it is unfortunate that DWP does not have a similar strategy. I respectfully say that it would be a welcome step forward in terms of social security as a whole and promoting the benefits of social security and changing the culture that I talked about earlier if DWP were to change their position and introduce a similar strategy. We would like to work more closely with the Secretary of State for Work and Pensions on that, for example, to encourage a more collaborative approach to supporting benefit take-up of all benefits. Unfortunately, we have not seen appetite for that yet. There was a joint letter from the previous Cabinet Secretary for Social Security and Older People in our Welsh and Northern Irish counterparts urging the DWP to take a more strategic approach to increasing benefit take-up during the pandemic in 2020. That letter was unanswered. I appreciate that it was a busy time for all, but it was a good suggestion from the devolved Administrations to put that forward. I have, as you would expect, been building up my relationship with UK ministers and Chloe Smith, the new minister, and I look forward to engaging further with her constructively on a number of matters. Certainly, that is something that we may discuss in due course, but I think that it would be a welcome step forward from the UK Government if they were to implement such strategy. Perhaps we can provide evidence and example of the difference that it makes, not just in terms of practically engaging clients and helping with uptake but also bringing us as a parliamentary group of members and as a society together to promote social security and the benefits that it provides and the collective enrichment and improvement that it helps to facilitate within our society. I welcome the efforts to get the sessions right the first time. At the end of the day, there are cases where people who are claiming, excuse me, are not happy with the final decision. What are we doing in the strategy to promote the right to request re-determinations and appeals? Throughout the process of application and communication with clients, they are advised of the step process and what is available to them in terms of being able to request a re-determination and what support will be available to them. As we roll out the advocacy service, that will be a key part of both its work and the wider work collectively to ensure that people are advised and aware of the advocacy service and utilise the advocacy service. It is built into the communication throughout the process. It is part of the wider communications on the website and on the engagement that we have. As ministers are keen to emphasise that those steps are there for people if they feel that their own decision has been made, it is very clearly put to them both that they have the option to request a re-determination and appeal and the support that will be available to them through that process. Thank you very much indeed. Just going back to your answer to Ms McNair's previous question, I would be appreciated if you could share that letter with the committee just for information, the letter that was sent on behalf of the devolved nations. That would be helpful, please. I very much welcome the strategy. There are so many good things in this that I think will offer a lot of reassurance about how the Scottish Government is considering benefits as we move forward. What I am interested in is the holistic approach that is talked about within the document and how the Government is talking about working with the public sector, the third sector. Can you tell us what the Government is going to do to promote this collaborative working and what that will provide in terms of benefits? It is such an important point that has been highlighted. We have all got our anecdotal experiences, but I think of the engagement that I have had as Minister with individuals who have benefited from the social security system. A lot of people have heard about the support that is available to them when they are taking their child to school or visiting their GP or passing through their community centre. The engagement with statutory services and collaboration with statutory services and the third sector is so important. Just to give them the right emphasis in an equal sense, the way that the third sector and organisations operate in a variety of different fields supporting individuals, either with disabilities or in care or who are carers, the way that those third sector organisations disseminate our information through their networks is outstanding and makes an important difference, and the way that they feed back to us on the experiences of those that they support is really helpful, too. All of those aspects make a difference, and that is why, for example, the fact that we are funding welfare rights advisers in 150 GP surgeries in Scotland's most deprived areas will make an important difference in terms of people learning about and accessing the Scottish Social Security in the settings of other statutory services. We have had a holistic approach to social security and maximising incomes throughout the period that has passed, but at the heart of the new strategies, as Evelyn Tweed emphasised, the recognition that benefit take-up is part of a bigger picture in terms of how we encourage income maximisation and tackle poverty and recovery from the pandemic. As I said, you can see this cross-system collaboration in our approach to funding welfare and advice and health partnership workers, which launched in September. That is funded across health communities and social security in the Scottish Government, so it is a cross-government initiative as well as being engaged in different parts of society. We have officials that convene an income maximisation and working group, which brings together officials from across the Government to make sure that we have a co-ordinated and clear sense of the collective direction of travel and the support that we provide is joined up as much as possible to wrap around people to make sure that it is person-centred as much as possible and to drive better outcomes for people fundamentally. There is a lot of collaboration work that is already undertaken and the benefit strategy is focused on how we improve and build on that. That is very positive and good to hear that we are taking that holistic approach and we are looking at a big picture. I was interested in the advocacy service and you touched on it earlier. Can you tell us how that advocacy service is going to help us with the increasing take-up of benefits? I was grateful for the session that we had on the advocacy service just a few weeks ago. Since then, of course, the procurement process has moved into the final stages and the services in the process of being rolled out. I appreciate that at that juncture I came to speak to the committee again about the advocacy service in due course, as I am sure that it would be something that the committee would be interested in. I am set to meet with Voiceability, who, as the committee knows, is the organisation that we have contracted with to deliver the service. I will be meeting with them later this month and look forward to that. I do not know whether you have led officially on a lot of that with Voiceability and in the process of the procurement. I do not know if there is anything further that you want to add. In terms of how the advocacy service will support benefit take-up in general, the opportunity for disabled people to engage the services of an advocate in interaction with the social security agency is one that allows far greater access and far greater support for disabled people to have a say in the processes that affect them and to interact in a much more fulsome and meaningful way with the social security agency. By its very existence, the advocacy service, which is funded by the Scottish Government but independent of both the Scottish Government and Social Security Scotland, will undoubtedly play a part in bringing disabled people into the social security system in ways that work for them, support them and allow them to play as much of a part in that process as anyone else. I have a few questions on monitoring and targets. I have heard this morning and I have seen in the strategy that the Government is not necessarily able to identify all the people and I heard your response earlier about disabled people and carers benefits, but in order to monitor whether or not the take-up strategy has been successful, it is important that we understand who should be taken up and what is success. Without targets and without being able to understand who we think should be taken up the benefits, how are we going to commit to that or how are we going to deliver on that statutory responsibility to monitor the strategy? I think that this is a really important area but also a very challenging one for all of us. Our policy evaluation programme will set out clinical experiences of the factors that helped or hindered their applying for the benefits. That will provide important context of the situation in which the strategy operates, so that feedback will be important. We will be looking for testimony that services were well advertised and that information was clearly accessible and that the application process was straightforward. Our policy evaluation programme will play a role in evaluating and monitoring to an extent in the way that Pam Duncan Glancy rightly emphasises that it is important. In addition, Social Security Scotland's client insight programme will report on whether clients have been adequately supported by knowledgeable and understanding staff through receiving a fair decision on their application, so we will receive that feedback at that point. Of course, we report information annually in our charter measurement framework, which was published last week, on 3 November. There are other processes to help to make sure that we and other bits of work rightly do monitor and evaluate as much as we can where we are at as a service and what we have improved and what we need to improve further and how we make sure that we are serving those who access the service in ways that are effectively and informatively as possible. I appreciate that. I have little doubt that the engagement between the agency and individuals who are coming through the system sounds as if it will be positive and certainly a bit different from what has gone before it. However, it is the people who are not seeing and claiming the benefits that concerns me. For example, in the Scottish child payment, we know that, in order to meet our targets to reduce child poverty, we need to increase uptake at least to 83 per cent, but it is currently sitting at 77 per cent uptake. What are the Government's plans to improve on that so that we meet our child poverty targets? Although members will know that purely the uptake at the rate that it currently is at will mean that we will not necessarily meet those targets. However, how are we going to find those approximately 25 per cent of people who are eligible? How are we going to find the other people who have not come through the system yet? My colleague Miles Briggs mentioned earlier that only 59 per cent of people have taken up funeral support payments. Again, what you described a moment ago was a series of engagements that you will carry out with people who have been through the system. What are we going to do for the people who are not getting the benefits yet and not taking them up? First of all, thank you for all that you do to promote and emphasise the Scottish child payment in your own work. That is an example of how utilising your own initiative and coverage can help to raise awareness and constituency work of the benefits that are available. There are initiatives on the Scottish child payment that you will be interested in, which I will state to you now. We have commissioned Ipsos Moray to conduct research to inform an interim evaluation of the initial roll-out of Scottish child payment for zero to five-year-olds. As with evaluations on our other benefits, that will contribute to a wider report that combines commissioned research with what we know from official statistics and population surveys. That is due for publication in the summer of 2022. That work will help us in the areas that you have rightly highlighted. We recently published our evaluation strategy for the devolution of disability benefits, which has a range of thematic projects into 2025, designed to assess the safe and secure transition of benefits from the DWP. That will also help in the initial experiences of the application and decision-making approach, particularly around supporting information in the application process, and will draw largely from child disability payments. It is not related to the Scottish child payment, but it is a piece of research in the same thematic area that will help us in order to improve our insight and evidence. On child disability benefit, the experience of families applying for child disability benefit and the impact that is had on their families and their wellbeing will be a key aspect of that work. We will be looking at that in the period ahead following the full roll-out later this month of child disability payments. On the question around the 77 per cent with regard to the Scottish child payment, it is important to recognise that 108,000 children have benefited from Scottish child payments. It has been a success for a lot of people, but the estimated reduction of three per cent is around the 77 per cent. It is important to point out that that is an initial estimate and we expect it to increase when Scottish child payment reaches its steady state. That occurs when growth in the number of benefit recipients flattens and the number of benefit recipients settles at its natural level, so we are expecting an increase in terms of the data. I do not know if, Vanna, you want to say anything further on that, just on the 77 per cent aspect only. Yes, perhaps just to add that the three percentage point reduction that was estimated when we were developing the policy for Scottish child payment was undertaken back in 2019. The reduction of three percentage points was forecasted for the year 23-24. There are two points here to flag. One is that the 83 per cent of take-up was an assumption necessary to enable us to estimate the potential impact on child poverty that Scottish child payment would have. Since the modelling was undertaken, a lot has changed in terms of the economic conditions and other factors that play into the child poverty forecast. I am saying that to explain that the take-up of the payment is not the sole factor that will determine the child poverty reduction in the year 23-24. Another key point to flag is that, just to expand on what the minister has already set out, we do not think that we believe or expect the take-up of the Scottish child payment to increase by the year 23-24, where the three percentage point reduction was estimated because the benefit has a long way to go in reaching the steady state. Perhaps it is also worth flagging that the Scottish school commission had previously forecasted that the take-up of Scottish child payment in 23-24 would be at 80 per cent. Thank you very much indeed. Next. Have you got any further questions? Can I just come back to a point raised by my colleague Miles Briggs in regard to the funeral support payment? I should probably declare that I am the convener for the cross-party group on funerals and bereavement. Certainly, the initial conversations that I had with funeral directors were very positive in regard to filling out the form, the process that was working really well, which again surprised me at 59. I may have missed this minister, but what are we going to do to get this 41 per cent who haven't come? I appreciate some have organised their own funeral and that won't fall into that, but I don't think I'll be that higher percentage. I may have missed it if I didn't apologise. What are we going to do? I wonder if there is any geographical breakdown, so is it more likely that people are claiming in Central Scotland compared to the borders or Highlands? I wonder if that data has been recorded by Social Security Scotland and if so, could we see those kind of breakdown of figures? If I may convener, I'll be happy to come back to Mr Balfour on some of those points, but I'll say in the first instance that, as I said, there is engagement with the sector and continued correspondence with the sector on how, collectively, we work to raise awareness of the benefit and to make sure that those who are entitled and want to claim do claim it. The general marketing and awareness campaigns that Social Security Scotland undertakes, of course, promote the benefit as one of our living benefits, so there is that wider work that takes place. However, I would be happy to take that away as a follow-up point on some of the more detailed questions that Mr Balfour asked and respond to in writing a due course, if that is helpful. The Scottish Government has obviously expanded free school meals quite recently to blanket age groups, which is something that I am very supportive of and many others are to. Given claiming that free school meals are linked to other payments, including at the moment bridging payments for Scottish child payment, what is being done to communicate the benefits of applying for free school meals, even if your kid is already being fed? First of all, the question relates to, of course, how do we, effectively, the free school meals are a passported benefit of entitlement to different benefits. Of course, we are in a hybrid system here, so I think that what Emmeraduc rightly emphasises the importance of how do we within school settings raise awareness of Scottish benefits. As I emphasised earlier, there is already significant engagement with the education sector and local authorities on how do we promote Scottish benefits within schools. The challenge, of course, is that we cannot promote reserved benefits, because that is for the DWP to undertake that, so as much as there is engagement with, for example, citizens of High Scotland and some of the work that they do, of course, the Scottish Government lazes with them, but it is just a reality that reserved benefits are not promoted in the same way that Scottish Government benefits are. Given the interconnectedness of receipt of free school meals and the passporting of that being passported from claiming other benefits, I think that this emphasises the importance of continued engagement with the education sector to promote take-up of Scottish benefits by individuals who are interacting with the school, and certainly that has been successful so far, but there is more that we can do and we will continue to do it. Thank you very much indeed minister. Next I have Marie McNair, please. The introduction of the child disability payment has been piloted in three councillors, or no, Dundee, Perth, Comeross and the West Nails. What lessons can be learnt from the pilot and what number of claims are we talking about collectively from these areas and what source of support of evidence is secured to assess these claims? I am aware that you might not have this information to hand, and if you don't, that's okay, but could you forward on to me when you get it? In terms of the CDP pilot, what lessons have we learned in the period? There was some evaluation on this that we received recently, and I am certainly happy to provide that committee, especially ahead of the national launch on 22 November. I think that members should bear in mind that some of the considerations we have to be aware of in terms of the fact that it was a pilot, and part of the process of a pilot is to refine and to learn. One of the really positive outcomes was, for example, that 88 per cent of people who applied did so digitally, so that showed that both the accessibility of and the quality of the interfacing of Social Security Scotland's public-facing IT was very successfully engaged with by those engaged in the pilot for the CDP. There were a number of factors to consider that we have taken on board ahead of the national launch, but one of them, for example, is that some people were applying for the CDP that were already on the UK benefit. Of course, they will be transferred in due course, so they will be part of the case transfer and therefore were not able to make an application. There is just some information awareness raising that we need to do ahead of the national launch, and that has been all factored in for considerations around 22 November. I do not know if you want to touch on any more of that. Minister, you took the words out of my mouth. I think that a key lesson that we have had through the pilot is looking at the waiting of our messaging around making sure that we are promoting this benefit to those who may be coming into eligibility or may have been eligible for the legacy DWP benefit and have not applied, but also managing the expectations of those clients already in receipt of disability living allowance for children and reassuring them that they will transfer, they will not have to reapply and to manage the expectations around when that will happen, so that they do not think that that is an additional benefit to disability living allowance for children and to encourage them to not end an existing award from the DWP to move to us, because that will happen naturally, so that has been a key message. The other kind of thing that we are amplifying a bit in some of our communications in advance is just making really clear the types of evidence that may be helpful for us to make a decision so that we get as much of that on receipt of the initial applications possible to enable us to make the decision as quickly as possible and minimise any back and forth with the client, although that support is there, should it be required to make sure that we get all the evidence that we need to make a decision? Under the old system, people were deterred from applying for the carers allowance because the underlying entitlement rules meant that for some there was no financial gain. What we do is to get the message out that that has changed as a gain will come from the carers allowance supplement. Of course, the carers allowance supplement was one of the first benefits that was introduced in 2018 following the passage of the act, certainly through the process of its introduction and the experience of the last years, particularly with the additional payment last year in June 2020 and the forthcoming additional payment in December this year, we have undertaken proactively through central communications in government and in the agency to promote that, but also particularly engagement with carers organisations and encouraging them to raise awareness of and encourage application to the relevant benefit in order to receive the additional amounts in their networks. That is an on-going exercise that we undertake with relevant stakeholders and have been doing. Of course, the passage of the bill helped to bring attention to that issue organically just for the fact that it was the first bill that we passed—well, the first non-emergency bill that we passed in this parliamentary session. I think that through that process there was significant awareness raised and that work continues. Thanks very much, Ms McNeill. Just before I bring in Pam Duncan-Glancy, I think that it would be useful to note for colleagues that whether we are in public or private, I tend to suspend at 11 o'clock. It is looking more likely that we are going to be in public so that we can observe a two-minute silence for colleagues to be aware of that. Pam Duncan-Glancy, please. Thank you, convener. The Scottish Welfare Fund take-up appears to be quite dependent on postcode and, in fact, the variability in the success rates of applications is significant across the country. In addition to that, we are seeing more and more repeated applications for the Scottish Welfare Fund, which suggests to me that people are living in crisis. What are the Government doing to review the Scottish Welfare Fund to address the variability across locations and postcodes in Scotland, and to ensure that people are accessing benefits that are on a more permanent basis, to ensure that they have the money that they need to live on, rather than consistently going back to what is essentially a crisis fund? First of all, Pam Duncan-Glancy will be aware that the Cabinet Secretary announced a significant new winter package of support, much of which is allocation to local authorities in order to help with funding at a local level. The Scottish Welfare Fund members will be aware that we committed in our manifesto pre-election to a review of the Scottish Welfare Fund in this parliamentary term. That work is progressing significantly towards that review initiating. I am happy to take that away as a point of clarity to give to the committee following. I just need to be clear as to where the process is in that regard in terms of initiating the review and the formalities that have to be considered in that process. Along with further information from Mr Balfour on engagement in terms of funeral benefits, although I have given Monique McNair significant information on the evaluation of the pilot of CDP and anything more that I can add to that, I am happy to also update Pam Duncan-Glancy on a clear position on the review of the Scottish Welfare Fund. That would be really helpful, and specifically, if you could outline in that when the review intends to start and what it will consider. I will do that to the extent of which we can within the considerations of the process and just the issues around procuring and initiating such review that you have to consider, but certainly as much as we can. We will. How do you plan to limit the negative aspect of automation? For example, the universal credit has been five weeks away, dealing with the DWP's system confusion cost, etc. Of course, that is a reserved benefit for the universal credit. We are not able to affect the process of universal credit at all. That is something that Mr Tradry and indeed, if the committee was inclined, we would have to take up with the UK Government. Just incidentally, when I was on this committee, I raised the issue of the five-week wait with the Secretary of State at that point and pressed it as a point of concern. It is very disappointing that it is still an issue that people are having to face and that politicians are having to query at this juncture because it is not helpful for those accessing the system in any way. In terms of automation generally in our system, there are some considerations around automation that are important. In the longer term, for example, for benefits such as Scottish child payment, there is an intention to automate it where both it is appropriate and feasible, but there is some context to that that is quite important, if I may say it out, convener. First of all, analysis is under way within the Scottish Government regarding the feasibility of using Scottish child payment and its eligibility criteria for automating education benefits such as free school meals related to what Emma Roddick asked about earlier. The current position is that the eligibility criteria differs and we are exploring options in terms of how to achieve full automation, so that work is progressing. Again, it is important for the committee to consider that automation is not universally welcomed and does not solve all the issues around take-up. We know that because, for example, stakeholders responding to the benefit take-up inquiry of the previous Social Security Committee highlighted the complexity here. For example, the Joseph Rowntree Foundation and the evidence submission stated that human advisers with the robust knowledge of the system can assess the nuances of individual cases to identify eligibility in a way that automation likely never could. The Scottish Federation of Housing Associations and their written evidence made the point that algorithms do not lend themselves to nuanced decisions based on dignity, fairness and respect. As we continue to evolve and improve the digital capacity of Social Security Scotland and the Scottish Government and the Scottish public sector more widely, including local government, and of course the Scottish Government's digital strategy is a joint one with local government, which I think is quite significant, we will continue to consider how automation can be of assistance, but in terms of how we desire the service for Social Security Scotland, we always need to keep in mind that having advisers and having accessibility of being able to speak to someone, as I talked about earlier, is really important in the process, both in terms of application and resolution of any issues. How do we strike that balance? In terms of universal credit, I would encourage Mr Tradry to take his point up with UK ministers. Thank you very much indeed minister. I bring in Marie McNair again please. Thank you minister, just on to theme six. There's a good example from Glasgow that means that Registon births are then assisted to make best art grant claims. Are there any other examples of good practice elsewhere? Sorry, if you could elaborate on that example because I'm not familiar with it. Obviously, it's to do with Registon births in Glasgow. They help to assist you to make claims for the best art grant claim. I'm just asking if there are any other examples of good practice elsewhere that you know of, again, if you don't have it to hand. I think that those examples exist across the country, and thanks for highlighting that particular one. I spoke earlier about how, in my anecdotal experience, both as a constituency MSP and in the engagement that I've had as a minister with stakeholders and individual claimants, those life events are really important for signposting. For example, when families register a birth, as you've alluded to, or if an individual starts nursery or school, that's particularly relevant to promoting the five family benefits that we have. Those are very important. For example, Social Schools Scotland committed in our corporate plan to provide a joined-up service to clients. That means providing them with the best advice possible and referring them to organisations that can help them if they further need it. That's the overarching position within Social Security Scotland's operation. Through that, it's working closely with partners to support the development of referral pathways, such as those that Monee McNears brought to light in terms of that particular example, to ensure that clients who need broader support can connect with an organisation that can provide that support. That is a complex area of work in terms of how we continue to make sure that, at those signposting events, referral is happening and that engagement and information is happening. We are certainly starting from a strong position, particularly with regard to the five family benefits. It's a good practice and I'm just interested in other areas. The strategy aspires to a position where people are automatically referred to Social Security Scotland when things happen to them and it makes them eligible for the benefit. How achievable is that aspiration and how do we embed that approach to the public sector and other services that people access? I think that that gets to the overarching position of the strategy of how we promote and engage individuals in the wider support that is available to them. One of the challenges that are going forward as a Government and one of the areas where the Government is strongly focused as we recover from the pandemic is how we provide that wraparound support. Social Security Scotland is a very important part of that. Our benefit take-up strategy that we are looking at today emphasises and considers the ways in which we will do that in terms of encouraging take-up of benefits and informing individuals about what is available and providing them with the support that they need to access them. I think that Marie McNair's question is more widely applicable to service delivery in the round and I would refer her to the Covid recovery strategy that the Deputy First Minister published just a number of weeks ago in which it's the clear focus of the Government around how do we make sure that people take a person-centred approach and that people are at the heart of what we are doing collectively in terms of public service provision is taking forward. Absolutely, Social Security Scotland is a key part of that but one of a variety of public services that need to be there and also collaborating work together to support individuals. Thank you, convener. I'm not sure if you'll have time to answer this before we suspend the committee but I wanted to ask specifically with regards to strengthening portfolio working across Government. Foisel Childry touched upon this with regards to the baby box because I think one of the key things is where people find out this information and we know that 66 per cent of parents welcomed the fact that there was information around breastfeeding and postnatal depression so I just wondered as Marie McNair touched upon earlier whether or not that was being looked at to see whether or not that life event could include advertising for different benefits, the five family benefits that you specifically mentioned. I'll bring Kirsten in terms of communication materials and when they're supplied to people and perhaps after we suspend because I'm just conscious of time, convener, but I would say that Mr Briggs makes an important point around how we provide that wraparound support for individuals collectively as a Government and as I say, that is a key point of consideration for the Government as a whole in terms of Covid recovery and where we move forward as a society more broadly from here so I'll leave it there, convener. I'm happy for Kirsten to come in and I'll cut off at about 10.59.40 if that's okay. Sorry, I thought we were finishing at 10.58. Apologies. So be as quick as I possibly can, Mr Briggs. We do include information in the baby box about the five family payments. We are in the middle of running an evaluation of the effectiveness of the five family payments campaign and the literature in the baby box came as one of the top channels that people said that they heard about these benefits as a result of so that is a new way to promote benefits that was introduced at the start of this year and it's showing to be effective. We also include materials in midwife and health visitor packs as well that are given to expecting in new mothers and it's part of the conversations that midwives will have at key stages with mothers. I hope that answers the question but it's a tactic that we're using and it appears to be one that's working. Thank you very much indeed, Kirsten. I think just to make sure that I'm not having to cut anybody off from either a question or an answer given the time that we are, I'd like to suspend at this stage so that we can observe as a committee and with everybody in the room and virtually observe an act of remembrance and to have a two-minutes silence so we will be back at 11.02. Thank you very much. Indeed, colleagues, Miles Briggs again please. Further to the question, it was with regards to the recent SCOS report on adult disability payments which recommended a focus on active referrals being the way forward rather than just signposting. I wondered in terms of the strategy in going forward to develop pathways, whether or not that was going to be a key part of this to actively help to refer people in not just signposting. Sure. First of all, I'll just put on record our gratitude for all the work that SCOS is doing in evaluating regulations. Mr Briggs will be aware that the SCOS report on the draft adult disability payment regulations was recently published but we are still to formally respond to that so we will touch on that recommendation in our formal response. Just following on a wee bit from the theme one but also this theme, the previous committee did a visit to West of Wales in looking at this whole issue of uptake and going forward. What came out very clearly was that a lot of people won't even go to a school, won't go to the nearest GP to get this information. In fact, one person said to us very clearly, unless you go door to door, you're going to miss a lot of people. Now, I appreciate that it's not possible to go door to door but it's how do we get the information down to those who Pam Duncan-Clancy has talked about who aren't already on these benefits because a lot of these individuals aren't on Facebook, certainly not on Twitter and I'm just wondering what strategy do we have to reach for hardest individuals who would find it difficult to cross a road to get that information let alone go to somewhere else and particularly post pandemic where there's less access to GPs, we can't get into schools at the moment. How do we get that information out to people? That is one of the hardest questions for us collectively to answer and I have considered this in two capacities now. First of all, when I was minister for Europe and I was considering how do we raise awareness of the UK Government's EU settlement scheme to reach the hardest to reach who might not necessarily access different services in the normal manner. Of course there is the media work that Social Security Scotland does, so not just social media but mainstream media and I'll bring Kirsten in to say something about that in a moment. Work with newspapers, local radio, all the different mechanisms that you would expect. I think that the investment in the welfare advice and health partnerships is significant because most individuals will access GP services and the NHS, the vast majority of people at some point. We are providing that service so that we have 150 surgeries due to delivering welfare advice services in-house is significant and we have funded that with new funding, so that's an important aspect of our outreach work. Kirsten, do you want to say a bit more about Social Security Scotland's activity in the mainstream media? I'm sorry if it's okay as well, minister. I may add something about our invite to apply that we use, but we work proactively with the mainstream media and also with community media outlets, also advertising at times in alternative languages where that is appropriate. A lot of this we try to do through case studies. A lot of people, if you see yourself, it'll make you more inclined to interact and resonate and you'll realise it's for you, so that's why we rely quite heavily on case studies and some human interest stories with the media to try and raise awareness and visibility. However, Mr Balfour, I guess a key thing was how do you arrive at somebody's door. One of the key ways in which we do that is we use data provided by the DWP and HMRC to issue invites to those who from that data may be eligible for a number of our family benefits. That's something that we'll be looking at across the benefits if it's a tactic that we can deploy if the data is available to do so. We will be doing an evaluation of invite to apply and the impact of that later on in the year to understand, speak to some of those people who maybe did get an invite and then chose not to act on that to better understand why and to see if there's anything we can do to improve that. We are also undertaking some work at the moment to do research with some of the more seldom heard groups to better understand the ways in which to disseminate information to them. At the moment a lot of that does appear to be word of mouth and we work closely with some stakeholders including things like Gypsy Traveller groups to utilise their existing channels and forums they have to get the message out. For example, there are online forums for Gypsy Traveller groups where we have provided information that Gypsy Travellers have made videos themselves talking to their own community about the benefits as that is a trusted person that may be able to get that message out. That's some of the examples of what we're doing at the moment to try and tackle that. For the more seldom heard groups that are maybe not engaging at the moment with the benefit system, I would flag that some of the invite to apply, that the limitation with that is if they're not getting the qualifying benefit that they are for means that we are not able to reach them either, so that is a consideration for the DWP as well in making sure that people are getting the entitlements before we can then tap in to making sure that they access the benefits available via Social Security Scotland. Thank you very much indeed. Miss Weenie is very insightful. I'd now like to bring in for the final set of questions at Pam Duncan Glancy, please. Thank you, minister, and your team for the responses that we've had today. They've been really helpful. The question I have is about automation and also the ability to flex that in the way that you described earlier for people who might need a human being to talk to them about the situation. There's a system that, when people die, I'm sure the minister will be aware that it's called Tell Us Once, where you tell the state once, literally, that someone has passed away and that triggers a whole host of things from stopping pensions to council tax to benefits and all the rest of it, and actually that's quite helpful because it lifts the burden of responsibility, as you'd understand at that time, is particularly difficult. Is this the sort of approach or is this something that the Government have considered for when people are not dying but, in fact, alive and looking for benefits and that we could create a system where really we only have to kind of have that touch point once? Also, in terms of monitoring uptake of benefits—this is a slightly different question, but it's in the same theme—what are you doing to learn from monitoring of uptake of benefits through the minimum income guarantee work that you're doing as well? First of all, with regard to one touch point or one interaction with the service and then the individual being in a position where there's a proactive process around them either digitally or otherwise to engage them with other support, that does happen to a large extent already, but there's improvement to be—I mean, talking about the public service as a whole, but there is a refinement and efficacy that can be brought to that to a greater extent. Government is very focused as a whole on that question, and I think that that's something that we'll come back to as a collective, as a Parliament, I'm sure, in the period ahead. Again, I would refer to the Covid recovery strategy and how that touches on some of those issues. Another way of thinking about it as well is kind of no wrong door is a phrase that I've used as well, which is, if somebody goes to a GP practice and asks about social security, then they're able to get some assistance, and that's exactly why we're providing those 150 advisers in GP practices to build on that concept and that capacity. I think that this is about co-ordination between public services, but it's also about the development of our digital capacity of the public sector, and they're almost interrelated on how do we get that referral with proper and appropriate consideration around data protection and all the things that services rightly have to consider, but how do we build that infrastructure as well as that co-ordination to provide the person with the most support that's available to them so that they're not having to go to different places, either physically or digitally or otherwise? We're starting from a good position on that, but there is more work to do across Government and local Government and stakeholders as a whole, and I think that that's a really important thematic area of attention in the period ahead as we recover from the pandemic. Monitoring, you asked about going forward as well. I would refer to my comments earlier because I think that I touched on the most important themes in that, but we will continue to engage through the stakeholder take-up reference group and other entities that are already in place to make sure that we are monitoring the progress as much as we can within the data constraints that we've touched on earlier. That's your point on the value. Minimum of income guarantee. Yes, that was it. Apologies. I meant to touch on that as well. The work of the minimum of income guarantee is being taken forward by the cabinet secretary and, of course, it has a strong focus on income maximisation within that work in terms of the formation of the group and its evaluation at an early stage. I look forward to seeing its findings with regard to both helping us in the benefit take-up strategies implementation but also in that evaluative process as well. Thank you very much indeed, Ms Stanislaw Annu, Ms Sweeney, Dr Sulliland minister. I thank you very much indeed for your time this morning, the extended time that you've given us. It's very much appreciated, very insightful and very helpful. No doubt that we'll see you before us and we'll welcome you before us very soon once again. That concludes the public part of today's meeting. I will now suspend so we can move into private.