 Welcome to the drum history podcast. I am your host Bart van der Zee and today is a really special episode Because I am talking to mr. Paul Francis of zilgen Paul. How are you? I'm great. Thank you for having me on the show Absolutely, this is so cool for me because some people know this the very first thing I did ever for drum history was an episode that didn't get released and it was all about the zilgen and I did a ton of research and ended up just canning the whole Episode because I said no I need to interview people and get the real story so You have been at zilgen for 30 years and I'll tell people your title is director of symbol innovation So what exactly does that mean? Well my title used to be director of research and development but it it really encompasses even more than that because We're looking for ways to improve how we currently make symbols new symbol models to make or even you know new approaches to symbol making so They felt that the innovation title Better suited what I do on a daily basis. Cool. Honestly for a company that's been around since 1623 to Be having someone who was just still innovating is is really cool which we'll get into all that but What I would love to hear is as far back as you can go Let's just go through the whole history of zilgen so the zilgen secret alloy That we still make to this day. There's four Employees that know the zilgen secret that work in our foundry, which is about let's see three walls behind me where I'm sitting right now and They mix the copper and tin to make the b20 bronze and this Recipe to put the copper and tin together was actually first developed discovered in 1618 and What had happened is the Sultan of Turkey Wanted symbols to be made and he summoned avidus the first to the palace and Constantinople and asked him to make him some symbols so avidus went back to his workshop and He put together 80% copper 20% tin in such a way that you could heat it repeatedly and roll it out and hammer it and shape it and Lay that and it wouldn't break and it had such a great sound That the Sultan gave him the name zilgen Which is an Armenian Name and it means son of the symbol maker. So It's really really fantastic that avidus the first was named for the product that he made Yeah, the alloy is already 400 years old soon as we're in 2019 Yeah, and let me just get into how we got to 1623 and why that's the beginning of the company, please okay, so When when avidus did this for the Sultan he became part of the Sultan's court. So he worked in the palace So avidus was primarily a metal worker. This is how he he knew what to do with the copper and tin and he probably knew other stuff to like iron and steel and whatnot and He You know worked for the Sultan for a few years And then he asked permission if he could leave the palace to start his own little symbol making endeavor and because he was a non-muslim because he was Armenian he had to ask permission and the Sultan granted him Permission to leave and go set up a shop and section of Constantinople called Samacha and that was in 1623 So that was the official Establishment of the company. Wow, and that has to be one of the oldest companies I'm sure there's older companies in the world But zilgen has got to be up there with one of the oldest still existing companies in existence, right? Yeah, it's one of the the oldest continuously running family run businesses that still makes the same thing I think there's some older Japanese companies But they started off making bricks and now they're like a bank. Gotcha. Okay, just the name Might be the same family, but they don't do the same thing. So it's like the same name But it's been around for a long long time and it's just really Fantastic, you know 400 years is a really long time Yeah, now before we go on further, let me ask to just in symbol history The act of making kind of noise making things for like parades and military bands and all that stuff that that goes back a ways too, correct? Well, the yes the the Chinese have been making symbols for thousands of years What would happen in Turkey is that the Sultan had the Janissary army and they would march to the the music of horns and drums and he wanted some symbols as well and the There's a lot of lore where the symbols were also used in religious ceremonies and orgies and and and whatnot but primarily they were they were used by the Janissary marching bands and Unlike the Chinese symbols if you if you look at a traditional shape of a Chinese symbol and it has that kind of reverse type of cup It looks like an upside-down triangle Yeah, if you can visualize that. Yeah, so if you think about that those are handles the original Chinese symbols didn't have any holes in them So when Alvarez the first started to make symbols and they were very very small. We're talking 10 11 12 inches in diameter the way that they would put the bell in in Turkey is They would use a like a sledgehammer with a special peen on it Okay, so if you visualize a symbol today, it's hard to hold it by the cup So they put a hole in it and they you know fed leather straps through them And that's how they would they would play the symbols. So you got a different type of sound than the Chinese made symbols and because of the the combination of the Copper intent to make this B20 bronze. It's just a beautiful sounding alloy. I mean even to this day I'm surprised how many different ways that we can manipulate it and get different sounds. Yeah, so Avidus though he this special formula Avidus the first He he came up on something special that was unique and that is why zilgin is still so unique Is because of the alloy that he created in 16 18. Yes. Okay, cool. Yep so the recipe to make the alloy would get passed down to the eldest next eldest male member of the family and really for 300 years symbols were made the same way and if you if if we really look at it What would happen is you'd have to write to zilgin and say I need some symbols and It was kind of a made-to-order thing for the longest time as we get up into the 19th and 20th century you would see more Maybe some music stores ordering Symbols from from turkey where they would come in a crate and there were really no models as we know of today They different sizes might might be in the in the crate and they would land in New York or Chicago Philadelphia and If you were privy enough to know that there was going to be a delivery of symbols You could get down there as a as a drummer or percussionist orchestral player and hopefully find something That would work for you, which is Pretty different than than what we have now. Yeah, really there was no no cage You have one that's a little bit brighter a little bit darker. This is like this is what we got So you had to kind of Make it work But they were very very good at making Symbols I was just talking to somebody today about having had a old Constantinople K analyzed by a metallurgy firm Alongside with a brand new symbol that was made and the metallurgy is on the money It's exactly 80 20 bronze with trace elements of silver and some other stuff in there, too You know when we get when we talk about trace elements, we're talking about point zero zero zero one percent So they really had a handle on Making the alloy. What was the factory like then early like let's say kind of in that early Turkish era when they were making these Because I think I heard somewhere that was very like part of it was the the open air and the sea Kind of salt in the air was a part of it and all that is that is there any truth to that? I think you know those those are urban legends you know the Where where the factory was was was near the boss for us. There's there's a lot of You know stuff that that's made up to to you know, keep the mystique going on but You know having to have the factory near near, you know, the sea is not really necessary The the factory was very very small actually It was just a small building It could have even been just two rooms one big room where they would take the castings and put it in a Stone oven and when I'm talking about an oven, I'm talking about like a pizza oven, you know, like if you go to You know a a restaurant that does coal fired pizzas and they have this stone oven in the corner That would be the size of the oven and I'm not sure of this but probably in the very very beginning They didn't even roll the metal out. They might have hammered the metal out in the beginning before You know, they had big steel rollers There was a separate room to mix the alloy though that was always kept secret from the rest of the workers because From what I understand it was always like relatives that were part of the the symbol-making process But unless you were a zuljan you didn't You didn't get to go into the the area where they would mix the copper and tin and pour the castings Gotcha, but it was it was a very very small Area like I'm right now sitting in the drummers lounge of the zuljan factory and it's probably I Don't know 20 by 20 and that's probably how big that factory was back in Turkey How many employees you think were there early on at that point from what I understand You know, they would they would gather family members to come in and help them When they would get in order and then they would go back to doing what they were doing I think the zuljans had and I'm going back a couple hundred years They would have like a stall in the bizarre and Constantinople and they'd have symbols in there And if you were looking for symbols if you were in Constantinople You would be walking through the bizarre and you'd you'd say zuljan and they go Oh, yeah stall number six and you'd go and you might see rugs and hookahs and symbols up against the wall and you say I want some symbols so you'd pay them for them and they would go back to the neighborhood and Melt the alloy create the casting and make the symbols for you. Cool. That's such a different like you said now We're like we get online and we order them where we go to our music store, but man such a different different time obviously, but So going forward a little bit obviously In what I've seen and correct me if I'm wrong. So avidist the second is more of a modern quote-unquote modern Player in this story, right doesn't a lot of it picks up with him, correct? Yes, I wish I was up in the hallway because we have these tiles on the wall with with Kind of the timeline of stuff. So avidist the second Was a very good symbol maker. He actually Built a schooner so he could Sale the symbols to the world trades fairs and display them and he won a lot of awards for the sound and clarity of his symbols versus what else was being Made at the time and and the thing that people don't realize is I don't know about you I have a mechanical engineering degree and I don't dare build a boat because it would probably sink No, you know, he said well, I need to do this or he built himself a schooner And he loaded it up with you know symbols and he went to the world's trades fairs Which is unlike the name show if the listeners are familiar with the name show that goes Thursday Friday Saturday Sunday out in Anaheim The trades fairs went for six months. Wow, I didn't know that okay display your wear So you it's yeah, it was really really fantastic. So he He won a lot of awards in the 1800s. So after avidist the second It went to carapy or carol both pronunciations are correct. Carapy is more formal It's like being named John and some people call you jack. So carol is like being like the jack version of John and Carapy was was even better than avidist the second as far as being a craftsman. He continued to refine stuff But but still the way that they were casting the metal and working the metal, you know, not a lot of things changed You know, they might have brought in more Heavy machinery like a rolling mill and you know, they would have electricity in the factory with lights and stuff like that But they were still, you know, heating the ovens with with wood and you know, hand-hammering stuff out At an anvil that was attached to a tree trunk. That's cool So he kind of takes it to the next step basically and just I mean you're getting into the early 1900s now Correct. So it seems like the world is becoming a different place in general. So he's he's moving it forward there was there was Something that older Worker here mentioned to me because he got to work with avidist the third and we'll get to him in a second But sure avidist the third used to go over to Turkey and see the the K. Zildjian factory over there and You know, he would come back and say, you know, they got a donkey walking in a circle running some gears to run the rolling Melt, you know, why don't they just put a motor on the rolling melt? Oh, man so that you know, some of the stuff was still very very kind of Or a kayak that they were doing, but I'm getting ahead of myself sure with the story Yeah, so after avidist the second it went to Aram Aram Zildjian that that people would be more familiar with Sorry avidist the second to corrupt to Aram. Okay. Okay In Aram Zildjian, he was avidist the third's uncle. Okay, does that make sense? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So so avidist the second to corrupt to Aram who is avidist the third's uncle Right, obviously they kept the company running. So that's worth note But did Aram push the ball forward in any significant way? I'm gonna say that he just kind of maintained it at the time that Aram was running it there was a lot of Cousins that were working in the factory. So Their last name was Dolgarian their mother was a Zildjian But their their father's surname was Delgarian So they were like the workers during the day and Aram would probably go in and melty the alloy and pour the castings and then the cousins would be doing the The rolling and the hammering and the lathing. Okay, I'm gonna just chime in with some probably things that you're gonna Just say that's like there's folklore. Okay so I think I read somewhere that Aram was a member of an Armenian nationalist group and Had a plot to kill Sultan Abdul Hamid the second with a homemade bomb And I read that the story percent true Okay And he created an identical carriage to the Sultan and planted a bomb inside He parked it outside of the mosque where the Sultan was praying and wanted to blow up Abdul Hamad I'm probably saying that wrong but the bomb exploded a few hours early and he was linked to it so he was forced to flee the country and Opened a Zildjian factory in Bucharest Correct Wow, I can't believe that's correct. That crit that story is so nuts 100% true. Aram was a troublemaker We have to understand too that Being an Armenian in Turkey back then was not good. Yeah, there's a whole Armenian genocide. That's still not talked about Yeah, the the Zildjians were spared of course because they were world famous and also It was it was Avidus the Third's father Hiroshan, he was like attorney general in Turkey So he didn't want to get involved in symbol making any way shape or form because it's not like what we see today as a real You know self-sustaining business but let's talk about the The blowing up of the Sultan because this is a great story because when I give a tour I talk about it so Aram and His partners in crime they had gone to Bucharest and found a carriage maker and they had the carriage maker make an identical version of the Sultan's carriage and Then Aram and his friends they bribed the Janissary guards like the Sultan's secret service To have them switch the carriages outside of the mosque So they had this like Gilganite bomb and it's really kind of like if you think about the old cartoons Like Wiley Coyote and Acme bombs and stuff like that. Yeah, that's the type of bomb. It was with a fuse and the Sultan went into pray and You know the bomb went off before he came back in so the plan was he was gonna get in the carriage And they were gonna assassinate him so So how did they find out it was it was Aram and his friends well The carriage maker that they hired to build this replica put put a tag on it made by you know So-and-so carriage makers in Bucharest Romania So word got out that The Janissary guards That weren't part of the plot found this this tag from the carriage and they started to go looking for the guys and The great thing is it's not like today where you know, everybody's being tracked with their phones in their cars The Aram had time to get out of out of Dodge So he went he went to Bucharest and he set up shop there for and I say this kind of in a facetious Funny way, you know for about 45 minutes because he made very few symbols there. Okay But if you find one that says a period Zildjian and CIE Bucharest, they're extremely rare Man, that is unbelievable And then then things blow over with with the assault and stuff and then he came back to Turkey Okay, there's a couple times throughout the history that I've read about where there's multiple Zildjians running Simultaneously be at the a Zildjian and the K Zildjian and are those referring to corope or caropy and They would be avidists whatever the a would stand for so those are both happening at the same time We'll get into that sure sure and Right now we can because so our arm goes back to Constantinople Istanbul, whatever the whatever the date is and Then he he doesn't really want to be involved in the symbol making business. He's getting old Um So he writes to his nephew in the United States. This is avidist the third avidist had come over around 1909 avidist the third didn't want to Have to go into the Turkish army, which is really bad for Armenians. Mm-hmm. And so he came over he What was he he was like a? For lack of a better term he escorted a wealthy family's Children on the boat over to the US and He he landed At Ellis Island and then he ended up in Boston and he ended up working for another Armenian making candy And he decided well, why do I want to work for somebody else when I can work for myself? So he started his own candy business So it was something like the New England confectionary candy company or something like that I don't know the exact name and he had quite a few people working for him and he was selling candy to season Robach and SS Kresge's and Woolworth's and and stuff like that. So he was doing really well and He received this letter one day from his uncle, you know saying you're the next eldest male member of the family I'm getting old. I don't have any children to pass us on to you need to come back to Turkey and take over our 300 year family business and Funny enough, I having been here as long as I have I got to work with arm and zildren the last seven or eight years of his life and and I asked him I said so your dad got this letter and You know, so I'm sure he was reading it and I said, what did he think and Armand said yeah, my dad read this letter said I'm not going back to Turkey and I'm not making symbols They don't make any money doing it. Yeah, because he had a successful candy business. Yeah So it was actually avatars the third's wife Sally that convinced him to look into it and One of the things what that she said was well, you have these two young boys at the time Armand was eight and Bob was six And she said something to the effect. Well, geez avatars anybody Anybody can make candy, but you know, maybe this simple thing would be something that you could take advantage of and pass it on to The boys because it's kind of unique, you know, your family's been doing it for hundreds of years So he said, okay, I'll look into it so he went to some music stores in the Boston area and Said when he when he got into the shops. He said my last name is zildren. Does that hold any significance? and They all said the same thing if you want the best symbols in the world you you buy a zildren symbol Man, so he decided to Write back to his uncle and say well if you're willing to come to the US I'll take over the family business and we can set up shop here because you know if we if we think about the timing of this this is around 1927 he gets a letter from his uncle and You know this correspondence back and forth and the uncle decided yes, okay I'll come over and I'll and I'll teach you or reteach you how to make symbols I guess avid is a third worked as a teenager as a boy in the factory in constantan opal and avidus Ended up borrowing Something somewhere in the neighborhood of thirty thousand dollars from his wife's family. Now think about that amount of money back in 1928 yeah big time so let's say it's probably in the magnitude of five five or six million dollars today, right gosh Yeah And he bought he bought now the great thing about this part of the stories I got this right from arm and so I you know I can't talk about avidus a second in detail, but I can talk about What arm and told me about his dad and how we started this whole thing up yeah, and he took the money he bought a Big garage that was whole housing taxi cabs and Armand said yeah, I remember me and my brother my dad pushing these old taxi cabs out of this This garage so we could set up you know a factory and avidus bought you know a box oven You know like a more modern-day pizza oven that you'd see now like a metal one rolling mill copper and tin hammers Anvils big sledge hammers that would be especially ground so you could put the cups in and The uncle came over and they started to make symbols And what they what they were making at the time were smaller symbols 10 11 12 13 14 inches and They would be symbols that would be used more for like a marching band or Or Kestrel So essentially if you think about it, you know, you were asking about k zilgen and a zilgen You know what avidus started making in the very beginning would essentially be a k zilgen symbol Yeah, and the reason that the symbols coming out of turkey even into the The late 1970s will call k zilgen is because they didn't change the trademark So when Aram took over the symbols coming out of turkey still said k zilgen on them k period zilgen So the thing is is that avidus the third had no control over the factory in turkey because Aram signed an agreement prior to writing to his nephew in 1927 Giving fred gratch control of the k zilgen trademark and total distribution of k zilgen symbols in the united states Boy, so avidus once he was Retod how to make symbols by his uncle. He couldn't shut down the factory in turkey because he didn't control the trademark Let me ask does that make sense. Yes, it does completely and let me ask you this something that I I remember reading but not exactly knowing It goes back to the dalgarian side of the family, which I guess is cousins correct Yep, did mackayl dalgarian run that factory in Turkey and From what I remember hearing is that upset arman because it wasn't an exact zilgen who's controlling the factory Is that right? Yep. The avidus was was quite upset about it because okay Yeah, now there was there wasn't a zilgen in turkey, you know the true lineage because You know the last time was dalgarian But but there was nothing he could do about it because he didn't control the trademark so fred gratch was Literally employing those guys over there to supply him with With symbols and they you know, of course, they they still made symbols for the European orchestras and some of the American orchestras as well But the great thing and I don't think drummers really understand this the advancements that avidus made in Symbol making with respect to this he went out to the Kind of the name brand drummers of the day and said What do you need to make? Music this music that you're making because if you think about it This is when the jazz era starts so you start with dance bands People would go out to big ballrooms and dance to orchestras and then you started to have big bands and then You know that morphed into Smaller jazz combos and bebop and whatnot so prior to avidus the third Symbols were just being made and as a drummer or percussionist you would have to go and find something that would work for yourself in The situation that you were in and now you had avidus the third going to the You know the gene group is in the Joe Jones and chick webs of the world and saying well You're you're Making this style music. What do you need and I'll make it for you? that was a big big big change in symbols and I'd like to tell one story that I learned not too long ago that Aram and avidus were they were making some symbols and they were essentially making six symbols a day That's what arm and zildan told me says my dad was making six symbols a day And and he knew and he knew that he was going to have to do something in order to get the symbols into music stores but but anyway our Aram and avidus decided that avidus is going to go into the statler hotel in Boston Because there was a big Dance band that was playing on like a Friday night in one of the ballrooms And he was going to bring a suitcase full of freshly made symbols Which is kind of funny because there's no symbols symbol bags back down like we know today Yeah stuff that we take for granted didn't exist So he brought he brought some symbols and he got there as the drummer was setting up And and we have to remember that avidus is around 40 41 42 years old at the time And he goes in he says a drummer friend of mine. Let me these symbols And I want to be a drummer like you can you tell me if any of these would work for the situation that you're playing tonight? and The drummer opened up the suitcase and took a drumstick and started Picking up these brand new symbols that they made and started playing them and avidus was taking mental notes and then finally the The drummers slamed the case shut and said don't waste your time with these symbols kid. Go get yourself some zelgins. Oh My god little did he know who he was talking to because avidus is third really is responsible for Symbol design as we know it today If it wasn't for him, we wouldn't zelgin and all the other symbol companies wouldn't be making symbols the way they are That's it's unbelievable. He was kind of hustling him a little bit with hey, what do you think of these symbols? Have you he was doing some research? Yeah, kind of like when he went to the music store before and said hey Have you heard of zelgin? What do you think? I mean, that's he's a smart guy, right? So I mentioned that he was only making six symbols a day. So he was you know, they were rolling out the metal They were putting a cup into it. They were annealing it heating it up and then quenching it and Trimming off the excess metal that they didn't need and then they would sit at a at an anvil with a hammer and they would shape The metal right and avidus knew that if he was going to get this thing off the ground He had to make more than six symbols a day. So After the uncle left Aaron left Quincy and He actually moved to Paris and he never he never went back to Turkey. He moved in with his sister Now that the family secret had been passed on to another zelgin So avidus decided that if he was going to get this thing Going he he went out and he bought some crude hammering machines and One of them was is all of this equipment was was here when I started back in 1988 and one of them was this big big hammer We called it a bumper another thing that it was referred to as a Quincy drop hammering And just just think about this big heavy weighted Kind of hammerhead with a neoprene not neoprene But like hard plastic bottom to it and it would go up to the ceiling would go up Eight to ten feet and then there would be a cam that would lock and then you'd hit a foot pedal and then Just through potential energy and kinetic energy it would drop And it would hit a pile of three symbols and they and they would bump the symbols into a rough shape And then what he did was he transferred those and he flipped the symbols upside down and and put it on What would be called a reciprocating hammer or a hammer like Henry Ford would have used to shape bumpers for his cars Got it. So Now what he went from what we would consider Random hammering with hammer marks are everywhere To putting hammer rows in Okay, yeah, and He he Alvarez wasn't trying to make A new sound He was just trying to make more than six symbols a day. So Um, he was making now 20 25 symbols a day, let's say And because it went from this kind of random hammering to hammer rows the the sounds of the symbols became a little bit cleaner versus what was coming out of turkey and this was um you know kind of apropos for The the the big band music that was happening where you needed to have some symbols that would cut through the brass sections and Alvarez continued to go out and Get together with the the name drummers, especially gene krupa and and I hate to say this and because I pardon the pun But gene was very instrumental Again working with Alvarez and Alvarez letting gene work through him to create the symbols That we know and and gene said these symbols that you're making are really nice. They sound great But they're too heavy. They're they're good for orchestral or marching band But we need stuff that's thinner that we can accent and phrase on because In the beginning the drummers were still playing time on a snare drum and they would accent with with small symbols Um, yeah So he said to him he said alvarez you have to make the symbols even thinner And that's where the paper thin cymbal came from got it because his gene krupa gene was the guy I mean gene was the the the big he was a rock star. Yeah Yeah, and I always I've kind of I remember reading uh too and and That they would go pick out symbols and then go um on avidus's boat Like and hang out together and just be friends Which is great. Yes And and one thing I think is important like you just said you said then They were cleaner than the symbols coming out of turkey So it's always important in in my mind to remember that There was kzeljan and azeljans and they were not like how they are today where they're all coming from the same factory So they were competition. I mean that's just something where again reading through stuff I had to kind of wrap my mind around that of They're competing with each other zeljans were competing with each other Which I guess is something that has kind of happened throughout history. Sure. Can I ask you one more? Thing backing up a little bit something that I read that I just think is so ridiculous. I just want to check with you. Um Yep, so 1907 Um, it was back with the dalgarians. I think there was a so they wanted to get the family secret to make symbols Um, but they weren't direct zeljans, so they couldn't have it. So uh, there was a cousin caracan Believe um, where he wanted to go open a foundry in 1907 in mexico city And I read that he made a mistake in his calcul calculations of the mixture and was killed by an explosion That tore off his head and encased his body in molten bronze Is that true? It's not funny. I shouldn't laugh. Yes, it is. Wow. Yeah Yep. Oh my gosh so so just just so the listeners understand when when um We have two big furnaces here um that hold 1500 pounds of metal in each one And when when we're pouring from the furnace into a crucible The temperature of the metal is between 2200 and 2400 degrees fahrenheit That's the temperature that lava flows at Just so people have a reference how hot that is Okay. Yeah, so if you think about it, um, the metal gets poured into these big open Pots or iron molds. It's made out of a special iron And I I want people to think about when you take a hot frying pan and you bring it over to the sink And that you just decide that you're gonna try to cool it down and turn the water on and what happens to the water It dances out of the pan, right? Yeah So karakin did something wrong where he went to pour this molten metal And it literally jumped out of the pot and killed him Because he didn't know what he was doing man So that that's a hundred percent true god talk about like envy and honestly you can sympathize with that side of the family of wow my cousin I like because of my last name I cannot be a part of this and I'm I'm one family member removed from being a zildjian, but They just they can't be in that part of the family Right. Yep. Wow. I think for now, that's all of my, uh, budding in with questions, but, um, man That's I just love those little budding. I love those little, um Tidbits like that and I well while we're there then I read also that, um Arum was in exile in Romania and mackayl dawgarian traveled to Pressure the elderly arum into giving them the formula And he was declined and mackayl started to fight and flipped over all of the foundry tables That's another one kind of in that era. God. Yep. Yep. Jeez. So there's also, um Um, this is not a true. This is this is a true part of the story that During that time, um, there was an aunt victoria That she ran the foundry and that she knew the secret So, um You know that that so she she well while arum was in exile. She kind of she kind of ran Uh, the factory and she knew what the secret was So so there was a woman kind of running the the show for a little bit. That's corrupt's daughter. Correct. Yes And there's a picture in one of the this there's a I don't know if it's a magazine or a book and you can see it Where she's standing at the top of the stairs of the factory somewhere. That's fascinating I didn't know if this was true. I I've read that, uh, she was the one who passed the family process to the dawgarians And began a predicament of them Feeling like they could create their own symbols. Is there any truth to that? I I'll say yes to that. I can't I can't confirm it. I would have to check with With craigie zilgen sure a little bit on that, but I I don't think the answer is now Okay, I think I think that's right. So let's get let's get back to avidus the third for a minute So, you know, he starts he starts establishing his symbol business. He's getting The product out into the music stores and he's doing this based off of his um Candy business right you got to get it to the point of purchase so you walk in I need some symbols the symbols are there You don't have to write to them to have them made and takes months before you get them so, um, you know all all of the American dance band big band jazz drummer start, um playing a zilgen's and The reason that they're called a zilgen's is not because avidus said my zild my symbols are called a zilgen's The trademark that he had to use was avidus zilgen like we use on the a's today And the drummer shortened it to a's versus what was coming out of turkey, which were case So the drummers kind of took hold of it and made it their own. So that's where the a moniker came from It was based off of a trademark, okay So he's he's doing very very well And he's probably selling 15 to 20 a zilgen's for every one k zilgen that's being sold So they're doing it's a very very successful business and Armand and and and bob that they're growing up in the business when armand turned 14 Um avidus brought him in and taught him the secret Let's just wrap our heads around this for a second, right? Yeah So He's 14 years old and dad's gonna teach you how to play with molten metal Right, yeah, really, yeah And so so, you know armand would melt with his dad During school vacations and the entire summer, you know break from school So when he wasn't in school, he was in you know pouring molten metal and then Two years later avidus taught his his other son bob the secret formula So You had three zilgens in the united states that that knew how to mix the copper intent to make the bronze and then As as time goes on and we and the united states gets into world war two armand goes into the coast card and i think bob went into the army And um, so they were they were you know fighting for their country And this is the first time that avidus actually writes down the recipe and puts it in a safe in case Something happens to armand and bob and something happens to him Somebody can come along and continue um The zilgen family legacy of symbol making sure But nothing nothing happened to bob nothing happened to arm and they came back from war and they continued their roles at the company arm and was more of the Foreman of the factory you know working with the the the drummers and picking orders and You know doing the symbol making and and bob kind of morph more into sales and marketing and he would travel a lot over to europe to the distributors And you know, so they they were really a force to be reckoned with for a long long time but Kay's zilgen was still kind of a thorn in avidus's backside And He he was just irritated, you know and and from time to time he would himself travel to turkey And he'd he'd go to istanbul and and go visit the cousins and They would just end up in a fight every time You know because avidus can said, you know, you really shouldn't be making symbols. You're not real zilgens And they were like well, you know, we have the trademark with fred gretz and we're going to keep making them so Nothing got resolved But there was some time in in the 60s where bob zilgen had heard his dad complaining about this and he said Well, jeez, you know, i'm going over to to europe on business what and i go To istanbul and talk to the cousins and see if they might be interested in selling us the factory So let's just think about that for a second the cousins are the dalgarians the dalgarians Gotcha, which which their name would have been changed now to um zilchen, which is z i l c a n Some people say zilcan, but that's not how it's pronounced The c would have a little tail on the bottom of it. Okay So it's pronounced zilchen, which means um Big bell Symbol related obviously Yeah, so the the reason that they had to change their name from dalgarian to zilchen is because the turkish government decided There could be no more armenian ending names. Wow So they changed it to something that sounded more like zilgen Um, which infuriated avidus even more. I'm sure But they wanted some, you know continuity with with the symbol making legacy um But so avidus the third agreed with with bob. Okay, go over and talk to the cousins So bob went over and said All right. Well, we don't have any control over the trademark but we want to buy the factory from you and Literally they wrote a check to the cousins and bought the foundry back that really should have been theirs in the first place And and that kind of goes back to what I was saying where they were selling 15 to 20 a zilchins for every One k zilchins. So they were doing very well financially Yeah, so they had the means to be able to buy the factory from them So now we're going to get into how how did the american Zilchins company get the k zilchins trademark back, right? Yeah, so they just bought the factory And avidus, you know he avidus had talked to Fred gratch in the 50s and there was a big court battle I'm sure that you read about where yeah, you know a jury determined that a zilchins symbols weren't the same as k zilchins symbols So they weren't necessarily the same instrument so k zilchins can continue to be in existence But avidus went back to Fred Gretchen said You can keep the trademarks You never get another symbol again. I just bought the factory So what that did was force? Fred Gretchen's hand and fred sold the trademark back to avidus So now avidus the third is is the rightful owner of the factory over in istanbul and His family's trademarks, right? Yeah, and what does he do in turn? He gives fred gretchen another 10-year exclusive distribution right for k zilchins symbols coming out of turkey Why not make some money off of them, right? so um, so now avidus owns the factory the foundry over there and um Because k zilchins really associated with with gretch drums. They kept that relationship going and avidus kept the factory going until about 1976 1977 over in turkey Um And and it was decided that you know, this was too much of a hassle and they were going to shut it down So gosh, but I want to I want to back up into history if I can if I can go back to around 1968 sure Because this is going to get into the split with arm into bob. So at the time at the quincy foundry um The teamsters were unionizing companies in the area And there was a fear that the teamsters were going to come in and unionize the zilchins factory and that avidus would have no control over his his company that he built through the depression Again, you know bob talked to his dad and said listen I go hunting and fishing up in menductic new brunswick canada And you know, there's guys up there that we could teach how to make symbols We can build a factory up there And if the teamsters get in Um in the factory in quincy we we can we can lay everybody off And we can make symbols up in canada Yeah, so what that meant meant was that they would still pour metal and quincy arm and bob would go in and um And melt to make the castings and they would truck the castings up like 12 hours to meductic to You know heat them and roll them and hammer them and lay them up in canada avidus Agreed out of fear that a union was going to get in So this was going to be the backup plan So they they didn't know whether or not the union was going to get in or not So they had to build this factory as kind of plan b, right? Sure. So The factory's up there And they're they're making symbols they're making symbols called zilcos And it's not to be confused with the zilcos that might have been made In the early 30s So the the zilcos that were being made in canada They were they rolled a little bit thinner and they were pressed into shape with a With a hydraulic press and shaping dies kind of like how we make the ace today And then they were laid so so they weren't hammered Gotcha. So it was like a second line. Yeah, was the company called asco. Was that the kind of like father? Yes Company, okay. Yep. Now before moving on Who was is there any relation if there were zilcos in the 30s? Was that just another company? Like who were those someone different? No, that was avidus just having a like a Separate brand got it Didn't know that. Yep. So um as the story goes The teamsters didn't get in By one vote So they didn't have to lay off the workers. So um They they had this factory up in canada and they were making symbols and Come to find out They were selling a lot of zilcos And the a zilgin sales were going down and you know because avidus, you know, he he got all the invoices and all the bills and all the payments Every day he was he was seeing the decline in a zilgins and zilcos going up. So He made a decision one day no more zilcos If if people want symbols are going to buy a zilgin. So A lot of the production up in canada became a zilgin as well Hmm Yep, and there's canadian kays that are a very like sought after line as well, right? Yep, so that was when um when avidus decided he didn't want to have a factory in turk anymore And he just shut it down Some of the cousins were brought up to canada And they started to make kays up in canada for a very very short time It was probably only a couple of years before avidus passed away And and the difference between the canadian kays Versus the istanbul kays is that the canadian kays were very flat And I remember asking Billy zilgin one day said so, you know this whole thing with the canadian kays Why were they so flat? Why why weren't you making them like what elvin jones played or tony williams played or whatever? And he said when the cousins had come over and they started to kind of teach them You know some of the the kay zilgin Way of doing things because we have to remember they've been making symbols since the 30s the way that avidus the third developed Right. Yeah, he said, you know when the cousins came up. They they found that the orchestral Music was was the most respectable and and they were making the symbols for that kind of genre And that's why when you find a canadian kay. They're very flat Uh, so they're good for like orchestral use but for really great jazz drumming like what elvin jones or tony williams or Philly joe jones would play it was a different instrument Got it Yeah, so avidus zilgin passes away in 1979 and The way that the company was set up because arm and was the eldest Son he got more of controlling share because there were shares in the company And so he was in control. He had let's say 51 percent and bob had 49, okay, and um, you know, if you if you read about any kind of Siblings and business they don't always get along Sure, of course, so It it kind of came down to this that bob didn't want to work for his older brother But they both had the secret so that's probably where things get a little sticky Right. So bob decides that he wants to Divorce himself from the avidus zilgin company and go do his own thing Armin says you can't do that. You know, this is zilgin You you can't go in and and make your own symbols And it came down to lawyers and then a judge to make a decision and It was finally decided because bob zilgin was taught the secret by his dad Um, and he can't like unlearn it. He can't unknow it. It's his birthright to do with it as he wishes so He can he can go ahead and make symbols And the way that he got out of the avidus zilgin company And god bought out was that he got the the factory up in canada and all the equipment inside of it And the only thing that wasn't up there was a melting room. There was no foundry up there So, um It was around 1980 That everything was finalized and bob got the factory up in canada Um, but part of the deal is is that um, he can make symbols But he can never use a zilgin name in conjunction with his product nor can his ancestors for the rest of time It's interesting to have these things that say for the rest of time You can't use your name and I don't think it should be taken for granted that a lot of people Don't realize and I didn't until I was in my early 20s I didn't realize that um as we're getting to with the company. He started which is sabian Uh, I don't think a lot of people realize it's run by it was started by Robert or bob zilgin and now run by andy zilgin. Um, that's just such a piece of history that it's just mind blowing so some of the the long-term employees that um I grew up with because I've been here since I was 20 years old They kind of said that you know, they they saw that that um after avidus you know was going to to No longer be with us that bob and arm and weren't going to work together And this was kind of bob's exit strategy On how he could continue to go and do kind of what he thought It was the best way to make symbols versus his uh, his older brother arm and um, so You know, some people say that that bob kind of orchestrated this Um through the the teamsters potentially coming in and unionizing the quincy factory Really kind of making the best of that situation Right, so um part of the deal too. We can't use the zilgin name um with his product or his his ancestors But he also was was not allowed to sell his his symbols in the united states for a year. So you found um His product being sold in europe and south america in 1981 and then he didn't see his product on the market until 1982 now You being a a zilgin guy through and through What is there a major difference in i mean he he knows the family secret So I think a lot of people would think what would be the difference between what bob is doing With sabian let's say in the early 80s. I'm sure it carries through but what would be the major difference between sabians In zilgin's um in quality and production and all that stuff. Well, you know, the alloy is the same But it was more of a manufacturing philosophy and and how things should be done um if if we look at zilgin there's really um You know an uninterrupted um Timeline of symbol making symbol design From avarice the third we we we're continuing on the whole You know go see the drummer and make what what they want, you know, it's it's kind of uninterrupted and You know, I I don't think um bob Agreed with his brother on how things should go as far as um symbol making So if you look at the products now um And you put them side by side. They don't really sound identical even though they're um Made out of the same alloy. So if you put an a a thin crash up against an a zilgin thin crash They they don't sound like they came from the same batch because you know, they kind of went off and they started to um do their type of r&d and You know zilgin Continue to do stuff. Um The way that they had always been doing it um And you you got to see around 1982 1983 that um This factory that i'm sitting in now started to make the american made k zilgin So they did a lot of research with getting old ks from all the famous jazz drummers and tried to Really narrow down what made each of these really kind of individualistic fingerprint style symbols And how do how do we how do we capture the essence of all these? These one of a kind so we can make a k ride or a k jazz ride or a k dark crash um in a batch of symbols from time to time because I can't tell you how many you know old ks that i've played From the same era where they're Nowhere near each other Yeah, i'm sure I was i was working on some some stuff today where i was um copying a a vintage k from the fifties um And you know just and if you play another one from the fifties it's it's like Totally different because of the just because of the way that they did things. Yeah, I mean your job sounds awesome To do that sometimes it is some sometimes the metal doesn't do what I want it to do. Yeah, I'm sure wow well, um This isn't about sabian, but I think it's interesting to for people to know too that sabian the actual name comes from roberts children sally billy and andy Putting the names together because obviously he was not allowed to use zilgin Right and he wanted an armenian ending sounding name to his product. Yeah, which it does. So yeah, it was by design Okay, and I don't think we said earlier. You guys are located in um, massachusetts, obviously right in norwell massachusetts Yep Yep, it's about you know without any traffic. It's about 30 40 minutes south of boston Okay heading toward cape cod and um another thing that you unless stop me if i'm skipping ahead here, but In 1989 you guys got into zilgin got into making um drumsticks, right? Yes. Yep down in tuscaloosa, alabama. What's the story with that? Was that just a hey, we're in drumming Let's make drumsticks or was there anything interesting there? Well, I I'd like to give you a lot of details on that but um, I don't know the story I know zilgin started coming out with drumsticks around 1986 because I was attending berkeley college of music at the time And the first time that I saw them I think was in jack's drum shop on boilston street and I thought that was cool You know, um, I had a big big set of a zilgin's on my drum set my cymbals cost more than Then my drum set which is kind of ironic when I look back in time how the whole foreshadowing thing was working in my life But um symbol guy So I'm I'm not sure the story. I think Somebody was making the sticks for zilgin and then zilgin bought a um A woodworking plant down in tuscaloosa, alabama started making them themselves and I really can't speak to it because I don't know the the full story. Sure. Um So what if you don't mind me just kind of riffing here a little bit one of the The the great things for me as a young drummer You know was to work with arm and zilgin, but um, you know, some people say to me Well, how did you get into? Symbol making how did you how did you end up at zilgin? Right? So Um, I I think one of the one of the worst things that you can say to your parents growing up Other than I want to be a professional drummer is I want to be a professional cymbal maker Yeah It actually worked out. I'm just again. I'm just trying to be funny. Um But I started playing the drums when I was 10 that was in 1978 And I studied drums all through elementary school junior high school high school And I wanted to be a famous drummer like I think every drummer wants to be yeah, and um The only thing after high school. I'm like, well, I'll go to berkeley You know, because I just want to continue to immerse myself in and music and drumming And I attended berkeley in 1986 and I and I realized after about a semester and a half that this I want to be a professional drummer, but I don't know that I want to become like a music teacher or you know I don't know that I want to get a performance degree from berkeley when I can just take private lessons And just hone my craft and maybe you know find a band to play in so I left uh berkeley and continued to take private drum lessons from a A drum teacher called um, his name was dick de senzo um Your listeners might know his son david de senzo who has played worldwide with many many bands um Dave and I are are good friends. I mean, he's just a monster um international drumming star So his his dad was my teacher and I I continued to study with him privately. This is an 1987 And I said, you know, I just want to immerse myself just just in in drumming and and learning So I said well, you know, there's some schools that you can go to that you can just do some drumming And one of them was um the musicians institute out in california or a percussion institute of technology He says you can travel across the country and go there or there's this really great Um drum school in new york city called drummers collective He says it's not like musicians institute. It only has a 10 week program, but maybe that you know, it's really intensive Maybe you should check it out So I I actually wrote to them, you know people people don't write anymore And yeah, you know, I wrote to them and they sent me a pamphlet like a three fold-out page pamphlet on their school So um, you know, I wrote to them and said yeah, I want to come down I want to take an audition and there were all these things that you had to be able to do for the audition so I I Really went to the woodshed and really really practiced and went down and it was august of 1988 I took the train down from boston down to um manhattan and went to drummers collective to audition and It was great. I I I got into the school And I I went from september of 88 uh to just before Thanksgiving of 1988 And it was awesome and and the school was um, it wasn't something where you You know, you went went to classes every day and you passed the test You went to get information and you created your own binder and you were to take it home and continue to develop your craft So I did that so I I I came back from drummers collective um around Thanksgiving time in 1988 And I was auditioning with bands in the boston area and I was waiting to get a full-time playing gig But not being the smartest 20 year old. I was sleeping all day at home. Yeah, and One one night at dinner You know my parents My mother was a nurse at boston city hospital and my father was a was a salesman And they said, you know, we fully support this this passion of yours but Until you're playing full-time you got to get a job because you're not living off of us You're not sleeping all day and practicing drums and not working. Yeah, so So what I did was I I ended up calling dick to senzo again said, hey, I'm back from drummers collective I like to come in and And visit with you at the shop and show you all the stuff that I brought back and and talked to you about what I was studying And he said sure when you come in tomorrow at lunchtime I have a break So I brought in the binder that I had put together and we were talking And I said, you know dick, I I kind of have an alter ulterior motive here um For the visit I want to share with you what I learned But um my parents are kind of on my case because I'm waiting to play full-time and And um, I I don't want to go work like in an office somewhere Do you think you could call zildjian and see if they have any jobs? openings, you know, yeah, so Um, the the reason that I asked him this is because I had two friends in high school Um that had worked at zildjian right after they graduated So I there was a connection there between dick to senzo and and the zildjian family. So he said Yeah, I'll call right now and he turned around he picked up the phone and he called craigie zildjian Who was a human resource manager back then now now she's the chairman of the board And uh, he said to her on the phone, you know, I have this young drummer here. He's back from drummer's collective He's looking for a job wondering if you have any openings at the factory And uh, she told him that um, there's no symbol tester positions That's what most drummers want to do. They want to come in and they want to become a symbol tester Um, but um, we have some, you know openings in the factory If if he's interested he should come down make out an application and and be able to meet with the factory manager So Dick hung up the phone. He he gave me this information. I said, okay, I'll go down tomorrow So I show up and I make out an application. I talked to somebody in human resources And they said, okay, we're going to give you our application to the the factory manager and he'll be calling you So a couple more days go by and and and he calls me up and I come down to the factory To meet with him and come to find out He had studied drums with dick to senzo as well So we start talking about different people that we know in the boston area and different bands and stuff And i'm excited because i'm like i'm in like flin. Yeah, I have a job So after about 45 minutes, uh, he looks up at me and says i'm not going to hire you And i was like, why not? You know, we both know the same people you study with dick to senzo. I study with dick to senzo He goes, yeah, i'm sorry Trimmers don't get up in the morning. You won't be here. You'll you'll you'll have a gig and then you won't come in the next day You're calling sick and I said no, I won't I said i'll be here at whatever prescribed hour. You said I I need to be here So He says, I don't know I i'm gonna have to think about it and I'll let you know So interview is over and and little did I know, um The very next day the factory manager went out on vacation for two weeks So I was at home Calling the fat, you know the the human resource woman not not craigie, but whoever Worked worked for craigie at the time Saying, you know, are you gonna hire me? You're gonna hire me and I guess they tracked him down on vacation Wow, you know, this is you know, 1988. There's no cell phones, you know So they found him and said, hey, you know, do you think that you know? You want to have the kid come in and work and he said, oh, yeah, okay. Yeah, he's like whatever Sure. Yeah So, you know, it was it was day one. I show up the factory at the time worked from six to 230 And I got here at six they handed me a pair of safety glasses and a pair of gloves and a broom and I swept the factory floor and that was that was Kind of the morning and they didn't know what to do with me They didn't know what to have me do because the factory manager wasn't there yet um and In the afternoon, they said, well, come up to the front office. We're we're gonna decorate for Christmas So I hung Christmas decorations in the in the lobby With one of the guys from the melt room So a guy that knew the zildjian secret and me were hanging Garland and Christmas ornaments in the front office, which I thought was fantastic eclectic first day um So, you know, I I did some kind of menial jobs for the next two weeks and then they decided that I was too little To work out in the oven room because it was really really backbreaking work back then And they decided well, maybe we'll teach you how to lathe So they started to teach me how to lathe and I learned how to lathe the bottoms of the symbols first And I was very excited because I was making the instrument. Yeah that I had been playing um And I was a really quick study with with that with um Laving and you always begin on the on the bottom side of the symbols and they always get something like a new beat bottom For you to learn how to lathe on because they're heavy and you can't really mess it up So then I moved into You know some bigger sized symbols some thinner symbols and then they started to teach me how to lathe china's and splashes And um, I would say it was after about two or three or four months It was decided well, why don't we see if we can teach him how to lathe the top side of the symbol Which is called finish lathing and you really have to develop a Touch to be able to do that, especially with the thinner stuff And I was just I was just very excited to to be working at zool-jinn Which again, I thought was only going to be for six months. Well, I get a full-time playing gig. Yeah But they started to teach me all these different models to lathe on the top side I was doing chines and splashes and paper thin crashes And I started enjoying getting paid every week and the dental insurance and health insurance and the bonuses So I said maybe I do this full-time and I play drums part-time nothing wrong with that So that's how I got into symbol making and You know people say well, you know, how how do you learn how to make symbols? And I said there's only one way you have to work at a symbol factory. There's no college degree in symbol making Yeah, it's almost like an apprenticeship Kind of thing and yeah, and fortunately or unfortunately, I guess for some folks It's like you have to know someone and you have to get in but um, there's something to That choice of okay So the percentage of people who can actually play the drums for a living on a daily basis is obviously pretty small but that doesn't mean that you don't have to Not work in the drum industry and you're a prime example of that 30 years later doing what you love and um And it's I mean you're the symbol guy So I think that's like a very inspirational story. It's pretty fantastic when I look back on it, you know Um, I wouldn't change a thing You know if I if I could because it's really really great. Um, I laid the symbols for seven years um The the zildjian family they hired a new Vice president for manufacturing and he came in and He started to make some changes with regard to how we looked at quality and how we looked at product development and He hired a new quality manager and the quality manager was was in charge of um The product development aspect as well. So that department got beefed up and I bid on a job um to go into r&d And and I and I and I won the job and I started um in the r&d department in 1995 And the first symbol project that I worked on was um the azuka range with alexa cunha And I wish I knew then what I knew now because I would have probably made the symbols differently But it was fun because I was about I don't know 26 or 27 years old And here I am I get to you know work with some famous drummers and also You know have a hand in the development of new symbols for such an iconic brand that's been around for hundreds of years It was just very very exciting um went from the azuka line and um One of the things that I got to see kind of unfold in front of my eyes when I was still a lay the operator Was the development of the a custom series. Yeah, so I I've been here long enough where they're you know I remember when there was no a custom. There was no k custom dark. There was no k constantan opal corope avidus Any of that we we made a's we made k's We made z's if people remember what the z line was that was a um an unlaid symbol with uh different types of uh hammering techniques and it was a brilliant finish Yeah, big thick um thick symbols Yeah, yeah, they were you know like for heavy metal music And then we also made a b8 alloy A non zildjian family alloy called amir So that that that that was it And now now we have You know branches off of a family tree. We have derivatives of the a's and k's and stuff like that and it's really exciting and um I remember In 1989, you know If you remember the back of modern drummer magazine You'd see viny kal yuda and dave weckel sitting And the zildjian drummer's on in front of a k custom ride because a lot of the drummers were Playing a lot of jazz fusion and stuff and they were playing a lot of brilliant finished k's and kz high hats And then all of a sudden stuff started to change and drummers were we're going back and and going back and finding some um a sounds thinner a sounds and they were talking to arm and about it and The a's that were being made at the time They were a little bit heavier They had some higher curvatures and this was all by design throughout the 70s to cut through the marshal stacks with the With the you know loud rock bands But some some of these drummers that were playing the k's were going back to some of the the thinner um a's that did exist from the 50s and 60s and They were talking to arm and about hey, wouldn't it be great to make these style symbols again? And he he was working on it. Um With with the people in r&d at the time back in 19 um It was around 1990 And I remember vini caliuta coming into the factory and working with armand on it And I like literally couldn't talk because here's vini caliuta. Yeah, you know Yeah Playing, you know, um paradiddles on on the table next to my lathe Um, and it was just really really cool As a as a young young drummer watching something kind of unfold that became an iconic symbol line Yeah, really. I I remember getting my you know, my first I think it was a 16 inch a custom fast crash and you get your vhs tape that has vini Talking about the brand new line of new a customs and uh, it just being the coolest thing in the world to pop in the vcr and watch and Now, let me ask you. What is your favorite symbol? What's your favorite kind of line of zillions? That's really tough because I like them all, you know, I've I've been fortunate enough to you know, kind of have a hand and And everything that we've developed over the year. So every everything is meaningful to me every every symbol project symbol design whether it's the very very kind of Basic entry level what we call planet z All the way up to k const antinople You know what we try to do That zildren is is depending on the price point that you can afford that you get the best zildren symbol that you can afford Absolutely. So You know, everything is made here in the new orwell factory. So You know, we want to put as much design effort into You know a planet z as a k const antinople. So you get that zildren quality. Does that make sense? I don't want to sound corny, but no, you know, we really we do stuff like that. Yeah You know when when you receive it, we want you to be happy that you're you're getting that zildren That zildren quality And the symbols that you just bought regardless of you know, what sound textures they are Yeah, and and I think you probably realize this but and again not to be corny, but I equate being 13 years old and getting my first Like 12 or 13 years old and getting a zbt crash and it being like wow, I've upgraded from my Junk that came with my little toy drum set to Then you get a custom then you expand into this then you buy a used drum set that comes with some 70s Old zildrens and you get some new I got some new beats with it and I equate different zildren lines to different parts of Different eras of my like kind of drumming evolution growing up So It's just really cool. Not not many not many companies brands can do that Can I tell you about me buying my very first zildren symbol? Please do So I was I was a freshman in high school. I was I was 14 years old And I had a paper route. I had a hundred paper paper route back then and I decided you know that Christmas with my Christmas tips from my paper route. I was going to buy The zildren symbol. I wanted I wanted to be a part of the club, you know Yes I want I'm I'm gonna get the symbols that my heroes play, you know So I remember I remember Um, you know getting all these Christmas tips and I got about 127 dollars that year Um, and this was 1982. That's pretty pretty good That was pretty good. That was a lot of money back then. Yeah, and um Dick DeSenzo had just opened up his drum store in Quincy And um, I I didn't I didn't know him I just I had friends and in high school that had gone to the the store and had come back to to um You know the band room and said hey, you got to check out this drum store that just opened up and and you know over and near west quincy So like I I took all this in You know, I was part of the uh The drum line and the marching band in high school and being very young I was listening to the older drummers talk about this drum store. So I remember I remember, uh, having all this money and I'm like, oh, I'm gonna buy a zildren symbol And and I didn't know if I had enough money or whatnot. Yeah, but I remember calling the store and it was like a Saturday and um, ironically enough It was Dave DeSenzo that answered the phone because Dave and I are the same age. We're both 51 and I I said I I want to buy a zildren symbol and and and he said so So what kind of music do you play? I said, well, I play rock music And he goes, well, do you know what what model you want? I said, I think I think I want a crash symbol He goes, oh, yeah. Well, you know, we have zildren rock crashes And I said, okay, he says, well, we have 16s and 17s and 18s and I said, oh 18 How much is an 18 inch rock crash cost? And he said it's a hundred dollars. I'm like, okay, perfect. I have enough money, right? Yeah So I convinced my older brother. My brother is eight years older than me I convinced him to drive me to the store and he doesn't want to he wants to have nothing to do with his younger brother and especially buying another noisemaker, right? Yeah So I said, no, no, I just I I'm gonna go in and it's all set and I'm gonna pay for it And then I'll come right back out five minutes, right? Okay So He drives me to the this drum store. This is the first time that I'm walking into it And I walk in And I see all the drum all the drum sets and they're set up on shelves up above the um the floor And it's like angels started singing. I like I was in heaven as a 14 year old drummer, right? Holy crap. This is all the stuff that I was seeing in the magazines and catalogs So, um Here comes this other young young guy behind the counter goes height. Can I help you? I said, yeah, I just called up, you know, like a half an hour ago I'm looking for 18 inch rock crash because oh, yeah. Yeah, I remember And so he goes to the bin and he pulls it out and here's this 18 inch rock crash zildren rock crash in the plastic bag. He pulls it out. He puts it on the counter I'm looking at it and it's like a work of art to me, right? Yeah So he disappears and I didn't know where he went And and come to find out Because he was the same age as me. He couldn't do any of the transactions So he went and got his dad. So dick to senzo came out And he said, hi, you know, I'm dick. I own the shop. I run the shop. You know, what's your name? And you know, I said, oh, you know, I want to buy the symbol And you know, I have enough money and he goes, oh, okay, that's great So, you know, it's a hundred dollars and then with the taxes a hundred and five and So, you know, he's going to write up the sale and he goes, oh, but hey, do you need a symbol stand? And I said, oh, yeah, uh, maybe, you know, and I'm trying to be very, very respectful And I know that there's just no way I have enough money for a symbol and a symbol stand You know, because before he came out, I was looking at the symbol stands And he goes, well, why don't you come over here with me and we can look at them together? And, you know, being brought up to respect your elders, I didn't say no So I walked over with him and I kind of looked and You know, I found this really inexpensive stand. It was a Royce symbol stand. I think it was made in Taiwan. It was 27 dollars. Okay So I only have 127 dollars. I'm like, you know I don't have enough money with the tax for the symbol and then it's going to be tax on the symbol stand So I said, no, you know, it's all right. I'll just I'll just buy the symbol today and I'll get a stand another time And and dick kind of looked at me and he and he goes, well How much money do you have? And I said, well, I don't have enough for both in the taxi He goes, yeah, but how much do you have with you? And I said, well, I have 127 dollars and he goes, let me see what I can do and I go, no, no, no It's okay. It's okay. You know, I I know I don't have enough and and you know, not being the brightest bulb on the tree I realized that, you know, he owned the shop. He can he can work the numbers however he wants, right? Yeah So he says, well, which stand were you looking at? And I pulled out the Royce one. He goes, okay. All right Yeah, he says, why don't you give me all your money and you can go home with a stand and the symbol And I couldn't believe it, right So I have the stuff my brother's out from beeping the horn because now I'm in there for like 15 20 minutes, right? Yeah and As I'm about to walk out, dick says, well, well, wait a sec. Wait a second I have something for you and he ran into the back and he came back out with the drummer's setup book From 1982 and a zildjian bumper sticker Oh, cool. And I still have them. That's awesome. Unfortunately. I don't still have the symbol The symbol fell over in the basement like a year later and got a ding in the edge and then developed a crack. Sure So that that that symbol's gone, but I have the story. Oh my god. Yeah Man treating me like I was an adult Absolutely, and it's just so cool that it's all based around zildjian, which has become A massive part of your life. That is unbelievable. Yes. That is great. And I think that's A perfect way to wrap up and just to say that I'm sure everyone else out there has their zildjian story, which I would love to hear So if people out there do have a zildjian story You can send it to me and I'll pass it along to paul because I'm sure you'd love to To hear it. Um, and also I'll tell people Where I found you is actually on instagram as the symbol craftsman or just symbol craftsman And you post some really cool stuff just kind of behind the scene stuff at the at the factory Um, so I think people can you know get in touch with you there and and obviously Can find the zildjian website, which is very easy to find Paul you are a wealth of knowledge about zildjian. I can just the the passion just bleeds out of you, man I love it. Thank you. Thank you for having me. I enjoyed this We I almost want to ask to do a part two I can get into different projects over the years and how they came to be Well, I would love to and honestly the one thing as I was it's it's kind of funny with zildjian because it's like We just did the whole company history without getting too far into Then the new beats came around then the a customs then this and this and just more about the products So I would love to do We'll set up a part two down the road. That would be great. Can I leave you with um With one thing just just for your listeners about, you know, how zildjian views views things, please You know What what I was taught and and a lot of my colleagues kind of learned Was um, you know, the the the company follows the music where we want to make The symbols that will allow you to express yourself and make music You know, so We we're we're always looking to see where music is going and and really that's that unbroken line from avidus To arm and to craigie and debbie You know, we're we're always looking for the new musical trends and talking to the artists and customers On you know, what they need because that's what we want to make we want to we want to make Instruments where you can express yourself because because drumming and music is non-verbal communication So we follow the music man and you guys are doing it going back to talking with gene krupa and getting the Getting to hear what the drummers need and you guys stay on top of the trends That is absolutely for sure with stacks and all the stuff going on now and the effects symbols and everything But I don't think zildjian has ever lost sight of where they came from and you're a great ambassador to the company We'll thank you very much. Awesome. We're talking with you. Great. Thank you paul and until next time For part two, but for now. Thank you so much for being on the show. We'll talk to you later Thank you very much. Have a great day. All right. Bye. Bye. Bye If you like this podcast find me on social media at drum history and please share rate and leave a review And let me know topics that you would like to learn about in the future Until next time keep on learning This is a Gwyn sound podcast