 Would you say with the potency, because in my mind I always think about, you know, we're talking about transformational now, but when you said sometimes what we're doing is looking at the parent ego state that we need to be more potent than the parental interjects, so to speak. That's more powerful. Yeah, yeah. Otherwise you'll repeat history for the plant. Yeah. It'll just be another object that the negative parent will swallow up. Yeah. You need to be more powerful than that. We shall prevent one project. I'm thinking a lot of different words. Delightful. Yeah, or delicious. But I love the way you delivered awesome there. Awesome. Awesome, Mr. Bob Cook. And what we're looking at in this episode is what is transformational in the therapy process, which might lead on quite nicely from the last one. Yeah, yeah, we're talking about the inner child. But if we look at the word, if we look at therapy, therapy is all about transformation. Hopefully that's that's good. That's where we're heading. Yeah. And when people have a hard moments, which is a therapist, you've been with clients many times, which just have a hard moments. That is, even though it's only, you know, a second or two of realisation or a new awareness. That's part of the transformational process and therapy. Yeah. So, you know, how can I explain this? I don't think change can happen without transformation. We'll put it another way. Transformation is the glue that makes the change. You know, it's like, like metamorphosis, we move from one place to another through transformation. So therapy is transformational in essence. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we can't ever go backwards once, once we've had a hard moment or once we've become aware of certain personality traits or the reasons why we do what we do. We can't ever go back from that. So it is transformational. Yeah. Yeah. Absolutely true. Yeah, a person said to me the other day, did you enjoy the career you picked? I said back, well, I haven't quite finished yet, but I did enjoy the 38 years working with clients groups and individual settings. And partly it's because I've helped people in this transformational process. Probably the most satisfying part of the job transformation happened. Yeah, you must every time you work with clients and groups experienced that in some way. Yeah, definitely. And although when clients leave, it can be, you know, quite emotional and sad because it's the end of a journey, but there's also an awful lot of happiness in that they do feel able to, you know, to leave therapy and it has been transformational for them. Yeah, and I love that word because transformation means to me moving from one place to a much more positive place. Yeah. And, you know, whether that takes one session or 115 sessions, the impact I've played in the transformational process gives me a lot of professional satisfaction. Definitely. Yeah. And I can relate to that. I've had clients that, you know, stopped seeing me two, three, four years ago and, you know, I might still be in contact with them or whatever and they'll say, I'm still saying to myself, what would Jackie say? And it's, you know, with you, I wrote so many of your sayings that I picked up when I was doing my training that I use with my clients now. And it's them having that little bit of you going with them, which is real professional satisfaction. Yeah, and then they will integrate you so correct. So transformation is all about change. Yeah. But therapy counseling is all about change. And for some change can be scary. For most people, change is scary. You mentioned it in the last one about letting go of something and that can be really overwhelming for some people. Yeah. I mean, if you're in a stuck place, the only way you can make the only way that you can move forward is to let go of what's making you feeling stuck. You have to let go to move forward. Yeah. Eric Byrne wrote a book in, I think it was 1969 or around that time anyway. What do you say? Yeah, it was 69. What do you say after you say hello? Yeah. Like to move forward, you have to let go. They go together. Yeah. When you in that stuck place, it can often be the most petrifying place to be in. Yeah, because I've had clients, you know, when we've been discussing this, and they'll kind of say, but I don't know what to do if I'm not doing this. And it's a scary void sometimes when they let things go. Oh, even if it's painful and it's not serving them well, at least they know how the journey ends. Oh, so, you know, in the process, of course, that's the question which many, many therapists will ask, which is, well, what you want to put in the place. So, you know, you might do it. By the way, what you might do is with the client, you might go back to the other podcast here. You might do imagery work, not a conduction work about, or painting, if you like, or even just imagery work. What all this, if you let go of X, what all this new place be like. Yeah. But you are right. In TA, they call these stuck places impasses. And how do we help people move and to let go and to move forward. Yeah. And to, and of course, in that process that is, of course, transformational work. Not straightforward because we are so petrified of change. Yeah. Somebody once said that it's kind of like, when we're stuck and when we're in it, it's like we're on a train journey, and we do it all the time and we know what stops the train stops at and the people that get on and we know where the journey is going to end and therapy is like asking you to get on another train where you don't necessarily know where it ends and what the stops are and who's going to be on that journey with you. I couldn't have put that better. You know, when people are in the place we're talking about here. They find it's so hard to move to let go past because their script or the way they define themselves is predictable. Yeah, provides a sense of identity. And it provides stability. Yeah. So it becomes so hard to let that go. Yeah. Like they've got to let go of their identity, their sense of predictability, their sense of continuity and then maybe their sense of stability. And of course, how can they move into the unknown like you just and get said quite eloquently and get on a new train where they don't know where it's going. There's no sense of predictability. They don't know how they're feeling. There's no sense of continuity. So no thanks. At least I know who I am where I am. Yeah, even though it's painful, I know, I know how it pans out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, so we'll stay where we are and we'll keep this script at least. There's a sense of predictability. There's a sense I know who I am. There's a sense of continuity and there's a sense of stability. Yeah. But the transformation when it does happen. I can remember in my training, there was like a phrase that, you know, at some point in a therapy session, you will have a bullseye where it's like the stars line up and everything just comes together. And it is that a harm moment where it goes, it bypasses all the protection mechanism and everything and something just clicks for the client. Yeah, and when that happens, that's such a wonderful moment. Yeah, me and for the client. Yeah. It will only happen in a secure, safe, trusting relationship. Yeah. And often after many, many weeks, months of psychotherapy, like going down the onion layers, you can't suddenly do the work we're talking about here in session one. No, three, four. Yeah. And transformation can happen quite quickly as well as take a long time dependent on the client on the issue on lots of things. You know, I know we spoke about long term versus short term therapy before but I think people think with psychotherapy is always long term. It's always, you know, 10 years of doing it. Yeah, you're right. Of course, of course that can happen very quickly but what is also important that in their journey of transformation, we need to help them integrate these new behaviors or these new patterns into their lives. Yes, that's the key I think we can have transformation and awareness but then we lose it again. Yeah, it is about integrating it. Yeah, so that won't happen in one session. The genesis may happen in one session, but the biology might be in two sessions but I think the integration takes a bit longer. Yeah, yeah. I totally agree with that because it is new and it is different and, you know, I can remember having conversations with clients where I know my script it took me a long time to work out what my life script was and everything else but I also know even now, I will dip in and dip out of it. It's not like once I had this realization that it disappeared forever at times of stress I will go back. And though I feel like it was integrated and, you know, I know when I'm in my script and when I'm not, I still go back in my script. Yes, you need a therapist to help you. Yeah. Really, integrate the script and move forward. Yeah, and understand it and I know we've said it in past podcasts, you know, life will throw us curveballs and things change. I have a therapist with you to practice to play out to experiment with the new ways of being or the new script is so important. Yeah. The thing about transformation is that we often have to deal with the darker sides of ourselves that we've taken on from somewhere else usually. And TA that might be called, you know, the per dig estate might appear the negative toxic part. So transformation isn't straightforward. No, it's usually. It's often two steps forward. Sorry, two steps going back to going one step forward. And what I mean by that is that post psychotherapy is a process never an event. It takes this whole process to all this. Yeah. And we often have to visit the dark sides to get, you know, continuity in the light side. Yeah, often is visiting our toxic abusers or going to the trauma part or dealing with the parental interjects which are so negative with us. Yeah, that's all part of, you know, I think promoting transformational change in the therapy room. You know, really, in order to do that, we need to be our authentic self which were vulnerable. You know, it's very different even with a therapist in a therapy room to be vulnerable and to be our authentic self and allow that to come out can be really difficult, especially if we've been shamed and we've got guilt from the past. It is, it is a peeling back of layers in a secure place. Without, without doubt. And I think the use of permissions from the therapist is really important here as well. We do you to be you. It's okay for you to feel and think at the same time. It's okay for you to take these steps and I think dreadful is going to happen the world won't collapse. Yeah. It's something I often say to clients is the sky won't fall in if you make a new decision. It feels like it when we are in a younger self it does feel like the sky won't fall in. And I think without these permissions. It's a, it's often the client will stay in that place they need the permissions from a potent therapist to enable them to dare to take the risk to get on the new train. Yeah. And that you just read my mind then because one of the things that always stuck with me. And I think it's lovely is the three P's permission protection importance. And that is what leads to transformation without doubt. Yeah. Yeah, you know potency of the therapist. Yeah. It's involving themselves. Having a really impactful sense of curiosity. Yeah. Being on the third being on the client side. That's what all these potent things. You with the potency because in my mind I always think about, you know, we're talking about transformational now but when you said, sometimes what we're doing is looking at the parent ego state that we need to be more potent than the, the parental interjects, so to speak. It's more powerful. Yeah, yeah. Otherwise you repeat history for the client. Yeah. It'll just be another object that the negative parents will swallow up. Yeah. You need to be more powerful than that original parental interject. So for, you know, so potency is very important of the third value permissions really important to help the client get on the new train if you like. Yeah. And protection is by what a by word for a therapist to do this type of work. Yeah. So I like the three P's. I do. It's always stuck with me. Yeah. Potency. You know, it's so important permissions so important and protection is so important as an agent of transformation if you like. Yeah. I thought a lot in TA that's often taught a lot in TA but it's, it's a nice way of just remembering some of the really important aspects of our for therapists in terms of, you know, helping their clients in the world of transformation. Yeah, because that's the aim is for the client to have, you know, to transform. You know, you are right. I was just thinking when you were talking, you are right. Transformation can happen with one session, two sessions, three sessions, four sessions, but I think for us to take the transformation forward to anchor it and integrate it takes, you know, a few more sessions. It is, in a way, long term work. But then, you know, we have to say well what is long term work. You know what I'm talking about here, I think you can do transformational work in three months, but I think you're talking six months on. Yeah. Which isn't really a long time you think about it compared to what you've carried around for all your life. Yeah, baby. And again, you know, being in the therapy room is an opportunity for the client to explore and experiment and try out new things. You know, whether that's through role play or, you know, coming back the week after and feeding back how things are different for them. That's absolutely right. And I was in therapy for a long time. And, you know, I definitely wouldn't be the person I positively that I am today without, you know, the change and the transformation I made from the part of a self I didn't like to where I am today. And one thing in this, that doesn't mean total change. No, you know, I would say that I still carry the essence of my spirit, my positive, you know, positive humanity and different aspects of myself. You know, with me, but I will say that I've changed many of the things which were so toxic, and I've probably healed most of the traumatic places I carried. So that's the transformation I'm talking about. I'm not meaning the, you know, you completely utterly change everything about yourself, because I've still got many of the essence of me. Still carries throughout me. So it isn't about, you know, totally changing everything about you. It's just about transforming from the past, which was so toxic for you and using the energy in the place of change really. I think that's a really good valid point Bob, because, you know, it has been said to me before and I think I even went through a phase, you know, I'm always spoken the past about was having to have personal therapy while we're training is that I would leave my partner behind. I would be transformed. And would I want to be in this relationship if I'm not me anymore. So I think it's a really valid point when you say your essence and your spirit is still there. It's not like we reinvent ourselves completely. No, we choose to, we choose to transform ourselves from the dark side and live in the light side. And that took me many years so you don't have to say as long as me and that would be maybe this 69 months but I do. I would make a plea for therapist to look at how clients can integrate the new behaviors in therapy and support them in that journey. Yeah, because it's going to be a hard journey without the supportive therapist I think. Yeah, yeah, and a safe space to come back and to discuss it. Yeah, yeah, that's, that's a safe place, a regular protected time to come back and discuss your anxieties, your thoughts, and, you know, it takes a lot of courage, but it's really important to come back to this protected time to look at how you can leave you, live your life in a new way in these new behaviors and you need somebody who will be almost like a mentor to support you through that, I believe. Yeah. Yeah. I completely agree. And it can be quite anxiety provoking when we're making change. I think it always is. Yeah, because of go back to predictability, a sense of who you are, a sense of continuity through time and a sense of stability. That's all the hallmarks of your script. Yeah, you are. Yeah. So to get on the new train, I think will always inevitably carry a sense of anxiety. It's possible way with clients when they've come back the week after we've had a really good session and said, God, I felt really anxious this week. I've literally gone like this and they look at me and it's like that's because you're doing something different. You're changing and that's the reason why you're feeling the way that you are and then obviously we we work on that. And that's why you're feeling uncomfortable because actually you're going against your script. You're going against your life plan. You're going against, you know, what you've always known. So it would be really hard. It'd be really odd. Yeah. You've got a sense of uncomfortability. It would be odd, wouldn't it? Yeah. I'm not saying it's not difficult for the client when the army can changes and feeling anxious, but for them to know that this is, this is normal. This is part of the process is, is learning to be comfortable in the uncomfortable feelings that you're having. And what you're talking about here for the people listening is normalization. Yeah. Word used a lot in therapeutic parlors. And that is that the therapist provides normalization transactions to help the client know what's normal and what isn't. Yeah. So important. Yeah. Because so many clients think they're crazy or there's something wrong with them. So it's very important to help the client normalize if you want to put it that way. Yeah. It's one of the most important aspects and duties of a therapist, I think, to help a person and understand what was so understandable and to normalize that. Yeah, because a lot of the conversations that we have with clients aren't conversations you would have outside of the therapy room. Do we know what's normal and what's not because we wouldn't ever discuss this with anybody else. If you trace back to a person's history to where they made certain decisions that they thought were crazy or whatever you ever ever words they put on themselves. You will find that even in the most bizarre circumstances, the decisions they made were normal. Yeah, even those set of circumstances. Yeah. And set with the best of intentions because if we knew a better way, we would do it a different way. Oh, without dying, mostly people pick ways to survive. Yeah. And again, we should be congratulated for that because we did survive it. However, however we got through it, we survived it if we sat in a therapy room with a therapist. Yeah, and we're working towards transformation to a different, more positive part of ourselves that's going to live in the world of lightness instead of darkness. Yeah. Which is lovely. That's a lovely thought. You know, that, yeah, it has been dark, but it's literally going into the lightness, whether you're a spiritual person or a religious person or not, that's what transformation is. It's warmer in the light side. Yeah. We can feel the sun on our backs. Yeah. Yeah. No, it is. It's lovely. And it's lovely to be a part of it. Like you said, it's an honor and a privilege sometimes to be in a therapy room. And if the cloud can allow themselves to feel the sun on their back, it's a wonderful, wonderful moment. Yeah. And true transformation has happened. Oh, right. Okay, the client will tell you that's number one. Secondly, when they, and this is a longer process, but often clients will leave the therapy room, carrying you in their heads, which is normal. There's a client called transfer, a transferational cure. In other words, still carried part like you said earlier on this podcast, still, and that's normal to carry parts of the protective therapist who'd been so supported to them, you know, and I think the real indicator of when the totality of transformation happens is when they've integrated your words so that they have their own words. There's a long passage. I think transformation has stages for me are hard to new awarenesses. Then to put in new behaviors into practice, then to practice that in life, then to go to, you know, out of the therapy room, and they will bask in the world. You know, what they let themselves to become. Yeah. So the hard hard moment is the beginning of transformation. If you like, some people might say, Oh, well, no, no, that's, that's when there's real transformation. Maybe it is, but I think the actual actioning the change the carrying out the new behaviors is part of an integrated process. People can enjoy and bass themselves in the light and feel the sun in a way was different and they allow themselves to have a sense of difference and know where they've come from to where they are today. I completely agree that that harm opens in the awareness of where they are is really important. A lot of it is out of our consciousness. We just do what we do. I'm sure Gestalt focused listeners would say that the transformation is when we are when we grasp those new awarenesses, and in some sense it is if we're going to have the totality and follow through the actionistic part of the transformation, I think there's more to it. But that's, those are my thoughts. I tend to agree with you. Yeah, it is it is a journey and it's a long process. And it's not to say that after that a hard moment, the client hasn't gained something from it and, you know, would benefit from that. But the likelihood is that they will leave the therapy room and if it's not integrated if they've not gone through the process, it's easy to fall back into all behaviors. Yeah. And that's what we're talking about really important things here. Awareness is really important new awarenesses, but there has to be more. I think it's the integration of what follows. Yeah. And, you know, going back to earlier on in this is it's, it's being okay with letting go of stuff. Well, that is a really big one, you know, all the therapists or people thinking about what happens in the therapy room. A lot of we do a lot of what we do as therapists is helping people to let go and to take on new behaviors, which are more positive, and to be able to bask in the light. And that's a process never an event. Yeah, but, you know, I have our clients in the past that, you know, part way down this process. They'll then start to beat themselves up for doing what they've done in the past. Why did I not know this sooner? Why did I not come to therapy sooner? Why did I not work this and this out sooner? And they'll actually start berating themselves because it's took them so long to get to this point. So it's kind of like, right, we need to slow it down a bit now. Yeah. That's where guilt and shame often come to. Yeah. So then we deal with all those processes. So they can be kind of themselves. Yeah. So like you say, it is, you know, two sex back and one step forward sometimes. Yeah. Yeah. But we really need to celebrate and help the clients celebrate the one step forward. Yeah. I often say, as long as we're facing the right way, that can be enough sometimes. Do you know what I mean? If we're not looking back, we're actually, you know, in the moment I'm facing the right way that can be enough. Yeah. Yes, it's always a process never an event, Jackie. That's you in my head that I carry around. That's one of the phrases that I say a lot. And I'm not saying that my clients like hearing it. No, no. I didn't like hearing it because I think if people think they can just walk in, walk out after one hour or two hours or three hours. You know, it's an it's another story. They might remember with you in particular, you know, what was going through my head when you were saying it's a process, not an event was just tell me what to do and I'll do it. You've got the answers. Just tell me what I will do it. Yeah. And that's part of the whole therapy world, isn't it? Yeah. Allowing the client to have the opportunity to find their own truth. Yeah. And that's powerful. But it's also difficult at the same time. It's like you with a font of all knowledge and it's like you know what's wrong, Bob, you know what I need to do. If you've been heavily defined and told what to do all your life. There's a possibility to hold on to the concept of you can, you know, take ownership of your own shoes. Yeah. I do understand what you're talking about Jackie. And that's part of therapy. Yeah. You can do behind closed doors if you like. But no, I think we're also in the whole business of opening doors for clients and allow them to step into the sun. Yeah. And being with them while they do that. Yeah. And exploring a new way of being that that's really powerful. I'm very transformational. Yeah. Thank you, Bob. I really enjoyed this. I really enjoyed talking about this and it reminds me of all the changes and all the therapy journeys I've been on over the many years and I feel very privileged really the people have allowed me to do this job. Really. Yeah. It's a very humbling job that I've been involved in for such a long time. Yeah, definitely. So what we're going to be looking at next time is episode 71 next time Bob you wanted to get to 71 because it's how many years you've been on. Yeah, and I came up with two titles just before about an hour and a half ago. I'm smiling because this is such an interesting subject. You know, how do you work with difficult clients? Not decide. How do you work with clients you don't actually like? Yes. That will be a good one to do on 71. Yeah, yeah. What was the other one I said? Did you write it down? Working with multiple personality disorder. I specialised in that and that's all about how you work with the fragmented parts of the self in order to help them integrate back again. So you've got that one and the other one which is how do you work with clients you actually don't like? That's what we're doing next time Bob. I'm looking forward to that one. Well, it's a really interesting discussion anyway. I think it's a good one to celebrate the amount of years that you've been on the planet as well. Yeah, oh great. And of course you know the real truth is for people listen to this. In some ways it's quite easy. No, easy is a loaded word, but I'll just use it and then no people know what I mean. But it's easier to work with people you get on with and you're warm too and your heart goes out too. Yeah. It's more challenging if you find those clients more difficult. Yeah, and sometimes we don't know why that is. Yeah, so it'd be a great podcast there. Yeah, yeah, we can explore that next time. My 71st, do you say it's number 71? 71, yeah. That's what I want to be to 71 in podcast because it symbolises my age. And it's a really good topic. So until next time Bob. Yeah, thank you very much. Speak soon. Bye bye. You've been listening to the therapy show behind closed doors podcast. We hope you enjoyed the show. Don't forget to subscribe and leave us a review. We'll be back next week with another episode.