 Hi welcome, thank you Good evening. I'm Catherine Morris. I'm the Sackler family curator of the Elizabeth A. Sackler Center for Feminist Art and Like to welcome you all here tonight for what promises to be an amazing conversation We have with us Marin Hassinger, Lorraine O'Grady Andrea Brownlee Barnwell Linda Good Bryant and Dina McKennon to have a conversation that will grow upon And afternoon that we all spend together here talking about ideas and Imagining what an exhibition might look like here in the Sackler Center and in the Brooklyn Museum in 2017 around the 10th anniversary of the Sackler Center here an exhibition that imagines multiple feminisms Feminisms that have not been addressed in an exhibition form and how we might do that So it's a very exciting opportunity for us and when we were lucky enough to get everybody here today I should mention that Howard Dina Bindell was supposed to join us this evening, but unfortunately was not able to though She reassures us. She's here in spirit We wanted to then it became obvious that we also needed to have a public conversation So that's why we are here tonight and are very glad that you're all here with us and we look forward to you Contributing to the conversation. I'm gonna read a brief Biography for Andrea Brownley-Barnwell and she will do a more formal introduction of the people up on the stage who Don't need an introduction So Andrea is an art historian curator writer and the director of Spellman College Museum of Fine Arts Her exhibitions include Eon Rosewell Roseal Brown a cubed black on both sides in 2004 Amalia Amaki boxes buttons and the blues in 2006 Hale Woodruff Nancy Elizabeth profit and the Academy in 2007 Cinema remixed and reloaded black women artists and the moving image since 1970 from 2007 Maria Magdalena compost ponds dreaming of an island in 2008 undercover performing and transforming black female identities 2009 and Ingrid Mwangi Robert Hutter Constant triumph 2011. These are among the projects that she has curated and co-curated in her 14 years at the Spellman College Museum of Fine Arts In 2011 she spearheaded 15 by 15 an initiative to acquire 15 works of art in celebration of the museum's 15th anniversary I just want to mention briefly before I turn over the mic that the process of thinking about this exhibition and bringing everybody together here today was a Collaborative process amongst myself and several colleagues. So I would love to mention as this is a true collaboration Rue Hawkely Radia Harper Eugenie Psy Jess Wilcox Saisha Grayson and Stephanie Weisberg have all been part of this conversation too. Thank you very much Good evening Can you all hear me okay? Let's try this again. Good evening. That's how we do it in the south. I'm just I like to also thank you Jekyll Hawke reject Rue Jekyll Hawkely for the invitation as well as Jess. I feel like there's a lot of Reverberation am I too loud? It's okay. All right, great. Connie Choi. Thank you So thank you all for being here tonight There are so many other places that you could have been I know a lot of people are Popping popcorn and getting ready to pour a glass of red wine and preparation for scandal. I know that there is a Norman Lewis opening Philadelphia Lots of stuff happening around town Jason rand Performing lots of places that you could have been but the fact that you all decided to be here tonight is Exceptional you're in for a dynamic treat and it's quite a privilege that you all have extended the invitation for me to help share in this conversation We have a lot of people that might perhaps be joining us via live stream So be on your best behavior. You never know who might be watching As Caroline mentioned, I've had the great pleasure of being the director of the Spelman College Museum of Fine Arts since 2001 as some of you all might know Spelman College emphasizes art by women of the African diaspora This conversation Fits squarely in my wheelhouse, and I'm really delighted to be here tonight We spent the day revisiting exhibitions and conversations and topics and I get to talking fast because this stuff is so intoxicating and exciting to me In recent months the museum has presented two original solo exhibitions in the spring We presented Marin Hassinger dreaming and the exhibition that's currently on view is howardina pandell and again She sends her regrets tonight, but under the weather So in a very strange way, I feel like I've been preparing for this very conversation for a very long time So tonight we're gonna have a conversation First I'm going to introduce our esteemed Panelists I'm going to introduce them in the order that they're going to go Dinkin McCannan is a fiber artist painter printmaker teacher author illustrator She began her career at age 16 in 1965 When she joined the YUC artists collective in Harlem in 1971 She and Faith Ringgold and the late K. Brown founded where we at black women artists the first African-American women artists group The group lasted for 25 years Miss cannon has exhibited her works Worldwide including the Renwick gallery at the Smithsonian and Schaumburg The American craft museum the folk art museum the National Museum for women in the arts So many different venues throughout the country Her work is included in the collections of the Brooklyn Museum Johnson publications Proctor and Gamble the studio museum in Harlem And also the Schaumburg Next up we'll have Marin Hassinger Marin Hassinger was born in Los Angeles and after studying dance and sculpture at Bennington College She completed her MFA in fiber arts at UCLA You all still with me Sometimes take people's temperature So she began while in Los Angeles She began making sculptures with bent twisted and frayed wire rope and created and participated in numerous performances throughout Los Angeles Now based in New York City Hassinger continues to create sculpture installation videos Performance and public artworks that deal with equity in our changing relationship to nature Hassinger has exhibited widely and broadly in the United States and abroad She is the recipient of many awards and honors Including grants from the Lewis comfort Tiffany Foundation Apollo Krasner Foundation Gali Foundation Anonymous was a woman and a lifetime Achievement award from the women's caucus for the arts since 1997 long time 1997 she has been the director of the Reinhardt School of Graduate Sculpture at the Maryland Institute College of Art in Baltimore. So our third panelist is Linda Good Bryant Linda Good Bryant is an award-winning filmmaker who has had a varied career in the arts in 1974 she began just above Midtown Gallery the first exhibition space To primarily present the work of African-American and other artists of color in a major gallery district In the mid 1970s she began making experimental and documentary films Filmmaking caused her to start the active citizen project in order to pursue Her ongoing interest in creating art with social and economical elements and the capacity to change social and economic conditions In places where it occurs Miss Good Bryant has a bachelor of arts degree in art from Spellman College Master's degree in business from Columbia University She has received numerous awards including a Guggenheim Fellowship and an Emmy Award nomination And also a Peabody Award for film. Do you see what I'm saying what I'm up here with do you see what I'm saying? Last but certainly not least is Lorraine O'Grady Lorraine O'Grady combines strategies related to humanist studies on gender the politics of diaspora as well as identity Reflections on aesthetics by using a variety of mediums that include performance photo installation moving media and photo montage Turning to visual arts in the late 1970s O'Grady became an active voice within the alternative New York art world of the time In addition to addressing feminist concerns her work tackled cultural perspectives that had been Underrepresented during the feminist movements of the early 1970s O'Grady lives and works and here in New York So didn't got that I'm going to turn it over to you Good evening. My name is Daniel McCann in case you don't know me I'm going to Reverse things. I have I think a bunch of slides dealing with where we have black women artists But I wanted to give you kind of an overview of our Organization so if you're not familiar with us, you'll know who we were Where we at Was a collective of black women artists that was started in 1971? Although I'm from Harlem The group started by coming to my studio on the lower east side Most of our members were from right around the corner. I think For a long time one of our offices was at the crowns feet with the cellar table The 60s were a time when African-Americans rose up and started screaming for justice equality And our long overdue piece of the American pie the arts flourished as we as black artists created works about us and the likeness of us and Many of us being openly and proudly inspired by African culture clothing and art In 1970 in 1964 at 17 I joined with the way you see our collect collective the beginning of my art career when I joined the group It consisted of men and a few women over the next few years the women kind of disappeared and it was just me For a while, it was fine. But by 1971 I began to wonder where all the other women artists were I called K Brown We used to live in Brooklyn who called Faith Ringo and together we started calling around to see We could find all the women artists so After we caught we will call people and say do you know any black American artists women and they would say no We don't know any and we say but who are you talking to I'm one of them But anyhow to make a little story show we finally got 14 artists together after a meeting or two We really enjoyed being together. We decided to find a place to exhibit No gallery would have us We found we found Nigel Jackson who had a gallery on Charles Street in the village and he gave us our first show The feeling at the time was that Women were not serious We would run off get married and be mothers and not have long art careers So nobody really wanted to invest in us the camaraderie between the women from the first exhibition inspired us to Stay together as a group. We called ourselves where we at because when we asked where the women artists People said there aren't any so where we at was here We are Although we started with 14 women over the years at various times There were more than 40 or 50 members the original 14 were Kate Brown, Faith Ringo, Carol Blank, Pat Davis, Charlotte Richardson, Oni Malar, Geraldine Crooks, May-May LaBeau and Tanksley, Jean Taylor, Madhu, Tinsonia, Mary and Francis, Carol Bayard and myself Where we have black women artists consisted not only of artists, but of craftspeople textile artists, graphic designers, photographers, sculptures, museums, I mean musicians, writers, teachers and administrators Although our main purpose was to collectively support one another and find opportunities Where we could exhibit sell-out works and find other ways of generating income our mission statement included That number one we existed as a sisterhood Number two we wanted to preserve our artistic and cultural legacy while seeking to unite humankind through the visual performing and creative arts. We were dedicated to the dissemination of information on a historical and contemporary achievements of African-American people We became incorporated in 1972 and in 1979 we received our 501c3 non-profit status. We founded committees who research grants and Which enabled us to create jobs for us as artists and teachers. We created arts outreach programs survival art programs for families and shelters. We went to Bedford Hills Prison facility and assisted in the South 40 program which turned pottery and other crafts into income-producing Venues for women prisoners with families. We also created a six-story mural at 24 Fairman Avenue Basically, we existed in Brooklyn. We used a lot of the facilities that you have right here in the community Okay now This first one Has Half of ahead This is from where we at. This was one of our posters As you see it wasn't like any other poster you ever saw, but it definitely got the point of her This is one of our Flyers because that was the day of Xeroxing where we did a retreat because one of the things we also did was take women, men, children, and families Away so that they could do it This is another This is an invitation to an exhibition Our graphic committee consisted of whoever was available at the time. I think I may have designed this one This is one of our favorite posters for cooking and smoking One of the things that where we at became known for is that we kind of discarded the wine and cheese And we would feed people because as artists we were hungry. So we figured everybody else was This is close connections This is one of our shows will be showed with where you see artist collective This is me in a magazine for black creations. I was interviewed 1973 But the waistline has issues Pat Davis I believe who was a photographer she wrote the article and also took the photographs This is a big part of the room And another thing I forgot to tell you is that where we at came to the Brooklyn Museum around 72 We were here advocating to have a women's art show and although it took me like 60 years Here we are Listen So we did good. This is Carol Blank This is the late Carol Blank unfortunately. This is one of her beautiful artworks and like I said, we took pride in Using Africa as a viable source of inspiration for many of our work This is on the end here is Marion Francis who was a copper or is even though she's bad copper repose a master and This is joining forces another exhibition that we gave with Where you see artists collective? This is in person Quaker who used to live right down the block She was our business manager and she her claim to fame was that she looked a lot like Fatty LaValle This is one of my works is called woman alone and I think On this screen, it's going this way The woman is supposed to be here and all of the stuff up here is the stuff that's going on in our mind That's the end of my business. I think that a lot of my work has shown contrary behavior which is evidence of my inclination to protest but it hasn't always been overt and So I want you to think about that as you look at these slides I Also am working on an equity project that I suppose will be going on until I stop making work and part of that is a real Problem with sitting on a stage higher than you using a microphone to talk to you because I want to be part of you and I Feel like the whole issue of equality has to do with my position to you as an artist so Imagine I'm sitting next to you somehow Okay, the next time you see me talking, I'll be sitting next to you So practice Okay. All right these first couple of things I'm showing you are from 1972 I was a graduate student at UCLA and It was fiber structure and I had a wonderful Mentor his name is Bernard Kester who allowed me to be his first MFA student So I was thinking about fiber structure and linear flexible units Which ropes and chains are and This all happened post Watts riots post the death of Martin Luther King and Malcolm X and This is what I made and I called it the river and this one I Didn't really have a title for but it looks like nooses and the thing that's very strange about this is Somehow even though I was I wasn't thinking about politics or activism it came through the work as I matriculated as the one and only African-American student in my fiber structure class and So this is what I made and looking back on it. It looks incredibly political. It looks Like Nooses and the other one looked like chains and rope it was made from chains and rope and All of the things that are implied by chains of rope and by rope with nooses on the ends But the thing is I never thought about that. I didn't think about that consciously at all and All I was really thinking about was how to manipulate plier linear materials and I Looking back on that I Don't know. I have to give a lot of credit to the unconscious I had gotten a degree from Bennington College in sculpture and Bennington if you don't know about it is one of the most prestigious schools where you can learn about art I was making huge outdoor sculptures and Then when I tried to get into the sculpture program at UCLA I was not accepted there But I was accepted in the design department without even asking and my professor Bernard Kessler as I mentioned stepped up for me and then he allowed me to be his first MFA student So he was really my hero for those years and afterwards and I think when I think back on those Times that for example at Bennington. I was even discouraged from being the dance major I wanted to be and I became the sculpture major and Then when I tried to When I tried to continue my sculpture studies and Was denied that opportunity and was kind of Forced into the design department Without any question. I never had a chance to question that decision they made I can't help but thinking looking back on that that There was something afoot that I had absolutely no control over and I think a lot of it had to do with racism and sexism This is a shot of 1973 It was my thesis exhibition. I Was thinking about minimal art. I was thinking about a material that could last that wasn't yarn I was thinking about weaving materials that weren't yarn. I was thinking about Eva Hess. I was thinking about movement and What I made was anti monumental From 76 in a two-person show I had at Arco Center for visual art These are my early thoughts about nature and language the swells of the ocean as well as feminine anatomy I also thought about nature as a site for solace Equal seas equality this one is called potager and Again my dance Training which I continued to take classes even though I wasn't performing at this point. I Combined wire rope and it's organic part partner in found wood. It's a dead peach tree from my friend Louise house and It was installed at the Claremont colleges. I think here I was thinking about oneness equilibrium healing restoration and here's one that a lot of people probably know about from the Various shows that Sangha has put these photos in In 1978 Sangha called me on the phone out of the blue. I didn't know her she somehow knew me or at least knew to call me and She just started talking about Being an artist in Los Angeles being black being a woman and From that time to this that which is over 40 years We've been together as close friends and associates and partners in this project that she calls RSVP which is made out of pantyhose and So one day in 1978 With the help of Herman Harman outlaw who was a photographer We just fooled around in these pantyhose and Harman took the pictures and he later, you know printed them out and and then last year we went to London and It was pretty fabulous after 40 years of something that happened one afternoon that was playful and So what I found out when I was working with Sangha all these years is when you're activating somebody's work They're providing a framework for you to activate it and you are activating it according to your Pre-delection for being in that framework So it is a true collaboration not only of minds, but in this case of bodies so I continued with the dance ideas and with the ideas about daily life This is diaries from 1978 It was part of a trilogy that included other parts called lives and vanities This particular one was performed in an artist's space in 78 There's a diary of those people's lives again. It was a collaboration They provided the movement phrase and I helped direct the sequence of phrases And this is the vanities part of that trilogy. I used all my Physical attributes that at that time I was vain about and The third piece which I'm not showing is called lives and used to mothers and their children and I've kind of continued that idea now with my daughter Eva and our collaboration, which she is called matriarch the this is called grid and Perimeter and great is the tiny inset there and these are made out of pebbles and plaster and paint and All of these nature related pieces have a political underpinning and and that's what we are now calling conservation at the time I don't think we really called it anything The whole thing about nature for me is about its loss and how since the industrial revolution the concept of nature is completely changed I'm not referring to nature because it's pretty or can provide solace, but you can Because it's vanishing and I'm remembering it This is when I combined the search for nature with a desire to define the space as well The space of this room is defined by this natural path of homemade stones This is beach from 1980 and Linda should recognize that because it's in her space This was in the fall just above midtown downtown on Franklin Street The summer before I done a similar installation for art on the beach with creative time that one I planted wire rope in the sand and it Looked as if it was blowing with the wind The direction of the rope suggested wind When I moved the idea inside to Linda's it was made from these Manufactured stones and dowels and I think these pieces are actually about the same thing Which is the poignance of nature vanishing also in 1980 a Situation that I think Linda got me involved in It was this grand central Installation sponsored by Remy Martin the alcohol people and I was about to change chandeliers in the waiting room space at Grand Central and My attempt was to unify the space and then on the day that we were supposed to be Lighting these chandeliers with red bulbs instead of white ones They wouldn't let me do it so then I came up with the idea of red tape which actually illustrated what had happened and So I decided to use the red tape and And I decided to use it in the shape of either a crucifix or a cruciform And I put the tape on walls and different objects Including the pew like seating in Grand Central and I put crosses on people and then it Instantly related to fabric just like my fabric studies it related immediately to textiles And then I put the cross in myself and it was like crosses on Ash Wednesday So this was a multi-partite demonstration of an ability to improvise and I also had a red suit on because red was the theme and Once I put crosses on everybody and they moved throughout the space. It was It was like a sculpture in motion. It was a dance. It was a choreographed thing then I had the opportunity back in LA to do a one-person show at The LA County Museum of Art and this one is called on dangerous ground. It's wire rope 21 units on the walls and on the floors about four feet high for the bush Looking things and the stuff on the wall about three to four feet wide. I Was struggling with the idea of being in a museum and the museum is a marketplace But these objects in the museum that were protective of me They were sharp and spiky and angry and Protective of my position as an artist Theoretically a museum is a place where we preserve the past and I was a living artist So what was I doing in a museum? It was really important to me at this point to question the viability of that museum I Guess it's very political and maybe in the worst way biting the hand that feeds me This is sangha and I and some other folks from LA participating in a in a performance we call flying from 1982 and This piece was part of a show that began at ps1 here called Afro-American abstraction. It was Curated by April Kingsley That was 1982. That was a long time ago Anyhow, it was a collaboration between Sangha Ulysses Jenkins Frank Parker and Tony Goodwin. We performed at this opening at Barnstall Municipal Art Gallery We moved along the architecture There was music and video provided by Ulysses and Frank and Tony made trips to UCLA to get the bird films Which we danced in front of sangha and I moved along and even flew This is pink trash From 82 it's in three New York City parks Prospect, Bancourtland and Central I felt strongly about the inappropriateness of litter in the environment So I chose pink as the color for painting litter that I tossed around so it was very formal in the Complementary color area because pink and greens were compliments Somebody saw the installation which you see here and said oh this looks like fall leaves Which is very poetic because I think sometimes the garbage in our streets and gutters are like fall leaves as the attributes of our industrial society garbage maybe leaves in heaven in 1985 it was a show I did at Cal State University Northridge outside of LA preserved leaves or pasted on the walls and I got these leaves from working in the floor shop as a salesperson which I did for many years Before I got a real teaching job and the leaves were scented and glued to the wall like wallpaper I was working in the flower shop and teaching drawing in the evenings at UCLA extension The inset of that is a piece the title piece of the show from Spellman this year Which is called dream the dream But you can see that even though they're years and years apart that this idea of using leaves began Over 20 years ago So Finally I'd like to say that The most I guess Obviously feminist work that I've made is something called women's work and it's a performance. That's not really About the time frame That this show will be in but it does try to include the entire audience and Those things have become very very special to me because I don't see how We can go on in the way we're going without mutual support Thank you so one of the Unexpected benefits of this past after afternoon and tonight is Having a chance to remember and I really appreciate Mary and you bringing up Remy Martin. It did two things. It made me shudder because it was a disaster that collaboration and at the same time it made me feel really great to remember how In the worst possible Situation you were able to come up with a piece That was so effective in Grand Central Station. So thank you again for that Whenever I'm put in a position to think about Feminism or feminist art Immediately my mind goes in two directions and One direction is identity and the other direction is aesthetic And What I what I what I remember or at least make myself think I remember is that all of us at some point in time Are just pure spirit We are pure energy We are absent of all the things that are imposed upon us and it's in that moment That I think we are fully open to being Actualized as human beings That's how we start out but then we get things imposed on us like tears And you start to think okay, I gotta wear this tiara and then it goes from tears to prom dresses Which are never comfortable and then it goes from prime dresses to wedding gowns If you decide to go that way when you hook up with somebody and then it goes on and it goes on and it goes on and all these Impositions start to shape us Into compliant Into compliant beings Where we are our minds start to think only the standards that we're given Our bodies start to act in ways that conform with protocols And more and more that pure spirit that pure energy that full possibility starts to shrink and shrink and Then you become somebody else's mind And I'm gonna tell you getting little trinkets from guys when I was in high school that said love you and Linda on the On the front and in this case love George on the back made me feel so valued And at the same time I had no idea who the fuck I was But I was loved by George and several others who gave me little gold Bracelets that claimed me. I was there my At some point though, and I think all of us go through this guys and gals quite frankly at some point There if we're lucky enough We become really determined to touch back reach down into and and and reconnect With that pure possibility. We weren't once were and It's a blurry messy thing And you're saying what the devil is this Just above Midtown was my first my Not me as somebody else's my but me as my am and Through just above Midtown Things got clearer and clearer and clearer about what my possibility my potentiality wanted to express as An artist as a being on this earth. I am very very interested in the possibility of Creating work that has the capacity to change the social and economic conditions where it occurs the work I'm currently doing now is called project ease and Any of you who pass the tense that are now being dismantled right now outside? Passed part of this project and that's a farm stand The possibility that a farm stand can be art that changes the conditions we live in Is something I'm very interested in Thank you. I Used to be married to a runner and he did relays occasionally and he explained to me the principle of the relay And it's always that the first person is a strong runner and gets out in front And then the second person Holds the lead and then the third person really Increases the lead and then all the fourth person has to do is just bring it hold on But I I'm sorry about a disadvantage because I did not prepare this PowerPoint. I don't even know what images we're going to see but in the context Let's see what okay. Okay. There's my name. Oh Oh, okay. Well in the context of The show which is about a rethinking of feminist art from the point of view of its beginnings and why certain certain Works and workers were privileged and others were made invisible. I Think that I'm trying to fit my own my own work in that and I was explaining this afternoon that my work is Self is not necessarily what I would call feminist work I make work as a woman, but not necessarily always as a political feminist If anyone asks me well, what did you do for feminism? I'd have to point not to a body of work But to my writing and I would say that my most important contribution to feminism has been Olympia is made an article that I wrote Also, you know, all of his work that I've done as an activist So I don't really know how to speak about my work In other than say the terms that sort of Marin is you just what you did at the moment what what presented itself to you as something to think about as as Something that was compelling you to express itself through you and I notice that the I did not prepare this PowerPoint and it's interesting to me that whoever did it at the gallery put up a piece Which is the red diptych from a piece that I call the first and the last of the modernists and it was done in 2009 just a few months after Michael Jackson died and it was done in response to an invitation from a French feminist magazine called Petunia and The editors were French feminist artists and I don't know how they had heard about me but they said they wanted me to do a centerfold and That their invitation came about two weeks after Michael had died and by that point I was trying to explain to myself Why on earth have I been crying like a baby when I didn't even listen to him that much because I was a prince fan So I So then I had to so in order to answer this question of like these Unexpected overwhelming tears that I experienced at his death. I plunged into fan culture It was at that moment in 2009 There was a burgeoning of what was already a big fan culture But into something even extraordinarily beyond that and I was on every single Michael Jackson chatroom website whatever you want to call it I I've learned more about Michael Then I thought I would ever know and one of the things that I learned was that he had not stopped growing everybody that the I actually had been a rock critic at one point and I know David Marsh And I know and he was perhaps one of the writers most responsible for this Which is that this idea that after thriller Michael did nothing and That is simply was not the truth. It was like so astonishing to me that he had continued to grow I like many child prodigies I think I would say that Michael was one of the few child prodigies who fulfilled his genius throughout his lifetime and And that was so astonishing to me that I began to think about his attitude toward his His artwork toward himself as an artist toward them and his ideas about the meaning of art and the only thing that I could really compare him to in my mind was and Another artist to a poet that I had been teaching for 25 years and that was Charles Baudelaire So I made this at Charles Baudelaire as you know is for the father of modernism basically he was the first modernist poet and the first modernist art critic and and I knew an awful lot more about Baudelaire than I knew about About Michael at that time But everything that I learned about Michael was sort of like becoming a parallel to me for what I knew about Baudelaire and What I felt about them was that they were as I called the piece eventually the first and the last of the modernists I Would say that modern, you know It's of course people don't understand how I put these two people together and could I possibly know anything about modernism? If I could do this, right? But I in the course of teaching modernism I taught 25 years of course that's called poetry and art and the first half was Baudelaire the second half was Rambo and I Basically came to an understanding of what of what modernism was about from my point of view, which was that it that modernism was the first Moment where art had to be made without God It was it was the moment when Romanticism and you know going down and writing, you know a poem about daffodils are beside the brook just wouldn't work People had been as a result of industrialization people have been transported by the millions into these Cities that could know could not contain them. They had to be totally torn up and reworked in order to to take the influx of people from the countryside and That the idea of celebrating nature of celebrating Man's place in a world Conceived of and constructed by God just didn't work and so Baudelaire was in Paris at this moment when Baron Ronce Spinn was Reorganizing the city scape so that now the people being moved out to the banue and the center was being kept for the rich people But it hadn't really become That yet everything was there was no pavement things were mud. It was It's stank. It's smell. It was noisy it was a you know the industrial world was the first world where there was actual noise as opposed to sound and and and people were in terrifying relationships with each other exploitation of various kinds and Baudelaire was in Paris at this critical moment and Was perhaps the first person to understand that this was The new beauty That this that God did not have to create beauty that there was beauty and that man could create it man Could become God and create this beauty and not to not to mention the fact that industrialization meant the need for empire and What also happened is with the loss of God was the presence of the other and this other could not be could not become to grips with without excessive Intellectual effort and not many people were willing to make that but Baudelaire was willing to make that effort One of the things that he did was of course He met and formed a common law marriage with a young black woman from Haiti And lived with her for 20 years, and he didn't just he didn't just watch her living her life He lived her life with her so therefore as a result of he was living with what the Woman who was I would say the first postmodernist She was living the first we say it's kind of like you know is a cliche that That that the immigrant especially the immigrant female is the ultimate postmodernist experience, right? this woman was having this experience in 1840 and And he was not just watching her Live her postmodernist life from a modernist perspective But he was actually being affected and having to live it with her in the sense that for instance he had Gotten his dream job, you know, he was a poor he had lost his inheritance through stupidity and Was trying to earn a living as a poet nobody has ever been able to do that And so he got a dream job which was to be the editor of a literary magazine in a town outside of Paris he went down to set up the apartment before she came and Once she arrived the publishers of the of the magazine said oh, what's this and he said this is the woman I live with and they said oh and that was the end of his job and they both had to go back to Paris So this was a kind of postmodernist experience that he was already having with her and I felt that all of this meant that he was able to embrace the the rigors and the Horrors simultaneously of being a modernist artist One had to become God to make art and When I encountered it fully encountered the work of Michael Jackson, I felt that I was watching something similar I do not know of anyone who has ever had a more exalted I Idea of what the artist could and should be Nobody was more serious than Michael. Nobody was better trained in his art to the Michael In that particular form of art He took the history of his art form very seriously. He advanced it as well as he could but mostly What he felt was that he He was he he admired his own talent and he recognized his own talent And he lived tried to live up to it the best way that he could and one thing that he felt was something Which was that sort of quintessential? modernist dream Michael actually believed that he could unite the entire world through his art and that is a totally ridiculous concept, but it's a modernist concept and The amazing thing is how close he came There's not anyone else who's ever had a billion mourners a billion people crying tears when he died and so I put these two together in I'd also have to show anything else with this because the most amazing thing is I had done this piece at a at the invitation of a French feminist magazine and This is what I was thinking about and I said well, I'm a feminist what I send them is going to be a feminist piece And I sent it to them and the editor said but Lorraine Why did you think this was going to be for a feminist magazine? and I said because it has all the issues that feminism is concerned with or should be and That's I would say very typical of the way I functioned as a feminist What else is here? This is okay? So this is more pictures of This is a quadruple That's the end of that you can sort of see what happened to them at the end and the kind of price that they paid to their vision of themselves Okay, this is a piece that I did about myself called the fur palm and it's about being it's a It's a palm palm tree trunk with a fur Fur foliage it's Caribbean trunk with a New England fur foliage growing out of an African woman's naval This is called the clearing or Cortez and la Malin Shea Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings and and me and I think and I thought that because it Cortez and la Malin Shea with Latin America and and Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemmings with North America and I was the Antilles that I had covered the Western Hemisphere And this is just a piece I did in Central Park almost in the same thing that you did the pink trash basin What was the year it was 1982 yeah, and so this is also again about my trying to pull together My Caribbean heritage and my upbringing in New England Crazy combination. This is I would say the most feminist piece I've ever done. So there you go. I'm gonna just race through it I've been told that I'm having time issues. So here you go You never know where help will come from there was a No, they did not include the woman in the white This is the father figure the New England The Nantucket Memorial Statue The the Nantucket Memorial Statue in this piece was my New England father figure. There was also Character called the woman and white who did nothing but great coconut and she was my West Indian mother figure and in the end When the the main character has to be rescued to be brought together with the her other The church the church teenage self and her childhood self and sort of like form some sort of unified actualized figure To become an artist the person who helped her was not the Caribbean mother But the New England father in other in other cases. It's been the reverse It's been the it's been the mother figure who has helped her But one never knows where the help is going to come from one It's part of these various things and the same way that I don't understand how How feminism necessarily functions in the way I produce work But it's there and I think that that's that's the point to be always alive to what is there and what is causing the work and Resolving the work There's more there but we're not so we've spent the day together and We've had amazing conversations. We've talked about the varying definitions of feminism We've talked about the incredible experiences of working as a collective We've talked about class Gender race you name it at the end of our afternoon We all concluded That we also wanted to hear from you. I Need one brave volunteer To come to the microphone. I'm not gonna tell you what I'm gonna have you do until you get there Don't race don't race don't knock each other down, but I need a volunteer. Thank you. I'm brave soul And as she's coming to the microphone I want her to think about what bought her here tonight and what she wants to learn from this extraordinary panel Well, um, that's loud. I actually came up from DC Specifically for this panel. I'm doing my master's thesis on this topic So I really actually wanted to be here just to hear you all speaking at your perspective on everything Um, and that's why I'm here and just listening to what you all have said and especially about the Collective where we at collective. It's really given me more ideas to work with with my thesis So, what's your thesis exactly? Um, it's on black feminist art and notions of representation Representation black feminist art and notions of representation. Thank you for being our our brave Absolutely, thank you. Thank you. Does anyone else Before we turn this into a conversation Have a burning desire to tell us why you came tonight one other person Yes, hi, I'm very happy to be in Brooklyn in your company and hear these Wow ideas, I came because I really selfishly wanted to know what you think about money and If money is an obstacle To our presence in these spaces when we claim that it's an obstacle to our presence in these spaces or If it is something else, I was interested in the fruit stand. I'm interested. I heard Linda went to Columbia business school. Did I hear that right? Yeah, like Yeah, I'm doing a project about Wall Street and the 1980s and I thought if I don't come here tonight Greg Tate is gonna be real angry at me If I ask him any questions because I used to say I should have come here to understand black women I have a mother in the 70s and they came to New York Wall Street money, but did a lot of art and I just would love to hear about gallery women and Money Thank them both for coming to the microphone and I'd love to turn it to you for one brave of you for Talk about money Did you mean Earning money for making art. Oh Would you like to know how for example I made my way in As an artist, is that what you wanted to know or how I how I survived as an artist Mm-hmm Let me just say it first of all, it's not selfish We we all have gone through that so you're you're looking at a panel of women who have been around for decades and What you just said is what we've all experienced and I'm sure artists prior to us experienced it prior to that and prior to that the whole relationship between Fully actualizing oneself through self-expression And communicating that to others and And and and how that work gets them commodified And becomes part of markets that then we become dependent upon so we can survive Like I think that's just an issue that artists have been grappling with forever and ever and ever So I don't know that there's one answer here I would say that one of the things That has disturbed me since I actively Since I closed jam and in 1886 sorry has been that when Jan when just about Midtown started I Was working with artists who had to make things like they were driven by their passion To create and by the time we had gotten into the early 80s mid 80s Things had changed and it was interesting to watch that change because prior to that time Artists really dictated what was being made By the early 80s into the mid 80s with the larger art world What happened was dealers and more importantly collectors and more importantly collectors from Wall Street Who didn't know shit or shiola about art But wanted some art because they were told it would increase in value Started to dictate and determine what got made and these were Individuals who weren't interested in understanding anything about art aesthetics or anything else They were just not interested in that and so you saw from my perspective a kind of dumbing of of patrons and you also saw a kind of Acquiescence to that new market of buyers That undermined it from my perspective The passion that artists had and so more and more the conversation Amongst artists which used to be you know, I'm doing this and I'm doing that and I'm using this kind of material And I'm doing this those conversations started taught started to change to what gallery are you in? Can you get into the gallery who's selling for this? Oh, did you hear so-and-so was selling for that? to the point where about six months ago, I was at a dinner party with artist and Artists who are doing well internationally all male Nonetheless doing well internationally and it was fascinating to me that after three hours That all they talked about was the market All they talked about was who's making what and what was making who all they talked about and at some point I said I need to get out of here because it's just corrosive and I got up to leave and be polite and say thank you so very much for tonight and Before I could fully stand I said what the fuck is wrong with you? I cannot believe that I have been in a house with all of this Talent all of this creative energy and juice and all you talk about is the market It was the most amazing fight that ensued after that statement. So is there an answer to your questions? I don't think so. I think we're we're in process and probably will be for the next hundred years and Trying to figure it out if we figure it out then My name is Pat and I would like to ask you a question Do you think y'all were born with this talent or was it developed? It's a good question personally both and Mostly It the art is from an unconscious place. It solves itself in Dreams for me personally. I don't know that I Mind is both. I don't know whether the solution comes in dreams at the start often does and the solution comes more intellectually I Don't know if that's the answer to your question I mean, I will get an idea for an image or a concept or something in a dream And then solve it because it then starts to present It presents problems that have to be worked through that have to be thought through and I would say that the solution to me Then becomes more intellectual you know You get a little itch That's what it is for me was I born with the itch does the itch come because I look at a situation and I go I wonder how you could turn that around upside down lay it flat and that itch just develops and develops and develops until it becomes something I'd say It's not for me so much on where it started was I born with it or did I develop it? It perhaps Like Marin and Lorraine said it's both For me the big challenge is do I have the passion and commitment and Determination to stay with it because that itch will fuck you up It will haunt you for years You will start to think you're crazy like why are you trying to do this? And so For me, it's like I'm glad you asked your question because now I'm trying to ask the question What makes those of us who stick with it stick with it because it's hell doing that question I Think those who? Those of us who stick with it Are always equated to like a love affair like sometimes once in your life You meet the love of your life and it's something that grows and develops over the years And it never goes away and it gets deeper more intense You become more committed to it because I think everybody is born with Didn't innate ability to be creative But it takes those of us who are slightly jaded and maybe a little bit crazy To develop that and to actually think particularly out of the era that we came from we were all born with this desire and want and love of art but The commitment and the madness of that commitment to think that you could actually do something That nobody else had ever done which was very simply to exist as an artist just like artists have done over the centuries Yeah, you I think Is that commitment and The commitment like in some relationships you committed for like a couple years other commit other Relationships you committed for time and memorial. That's pretty much what we're up here You know reflecting we've all decided that this is what we want to do We are in love with the idea of creating art and even more so for us as women and For myself in particular. I was in love as I got older with The idea of creating and be able to take this creation and make it mean something in the world To be able to take this creation and inspire other people to get up and maybe try this Not even as a profession, but just just to release that part of you You know Dina. I'm so glad that you mentioned the matter of love affair and commitment It's really exceptional that this institution has committed to doing such a show That is going to reflect back on such an important moment ten years into their history So again, we've had a lot of time to talk today And I would love it if you all would share a bit about what you hope the show will do Or what it will be Well, I think that I think that it's a very interesting idea that the Sackler Center is celebrating its 10th anniversary with an examination as I said of its failures rather than its successes although there's a way of Twisting that or not twisting that but like Directing that so that it's a way of finding the most interesting discussion to carry the institution forward Because remedy remedying the past is the best way of welcoming the future so I But but those of us at the table who were all there because we had been omitted from the Initial phases we were the ones that were we were the ones that were overlooked had rather different ideas than just simple recognition We wanted we wanted the Recognition to be meaningful not just another example of Curatorial power Just making rather empty gestures to the other Wanted it to be we wanted the show to be large enough Important enough so that it could make a difference into the in the way the discussions were carried on in the future in particular about black women artists and maybe even Seeing us at the center of something instead of defined by The feminist culture that we normally consider so in other words making us Giving us giving our power value In and of itself not in comparison to anything else just ourselves and I think we all felt that That would be a real innovation Did you hear her question? She wanted to know at what age did you all start taking your your art very seriously? well, I Pay my bills because I teach I Don't pay my bills from art I Teach art and I'm very excited about teaching my students. I love the conversations We have about why you make things The importance of being an artist and whatnot But if I didn't have that job, I wouldn't be here. I Might be making art, but I would not be here because It would I would be destitute But in part I'm destitute because of the culture we live in It's not entirely My own doing or in my control at all You know, it's part of it is being a woman and being black and unfortunately in our culture that hasn't worked well in terms of Financial Immuneration, you know, but the thing about it is about all of us that we were talking about today. We all have These ideas about herself which we're not shrinking violets. It's not about that at all. It's that because of the way our culture is it's overlooked our Contribution our contribution is absolutely legitimate and deeply felt and You can see by the things that were shown tonight that people have been at it for a long time in a very very serious way and In different ways each person has a different way of expressing what they think is most important about being creative and All of all of the ideas are wonderful. They're absolutely legitimate, but somehow We haven't gotten the recognition so this show promises to help us and others like us and to rewrite the canon of The last 30 years So this this show promises be a very very It has a lot of potential for being very very helpful on a social political and aesthetic level It's interesting because of course the the show is still a feminist show and So that means that really is it's almost almost outside the canon Right, so we're outside the cannon. We're outside a cannon. That's already outside a cannon and I don't know in some ways one of the things that mainstream feminism can do to lift its own profile of importance and stature is to be a model of how to include a much larger framework and I think that if the show can produce a frame of a model of of enlargement Then it can stand as something that can teach the rest of the money-driven art world on how to be gradually transformed That that's sort of the hope Well money isn't everything right Anything you too want to share about your hopes for this show Yeah, I hope that this show Will put us where we belong right in the rest of art history Because I don't know how it is today, but I know I had to read Jansen's history of art And they left out half maybe three-quarters of the world. So at this point This will put us where we belong like I said in history. It'll also empower other Artists whether they be man woman child that you can do stuff Sometimes outside of the mainstream and maybe at some point or maybe not Your contribution will be seen as just as valid as any of the other artists who've lived throughout time Her question art is about no, you're not supposed to when you go to a gallery and see a piece of art It affects you or it doesn't affect you you decide as a consumer that I like this I want to live with this. I want to buy this that is the next phase and Then you had that question about art when did you decide to become an artist with me in particular it was around age 10 maybe 11 and Then the desire to be an artist preceded everything else in my life That meant that as I grew into a young woman and then a woman I had to figure out what I could do in my life to make sure that I would be able to create with me in particular It was my ability to be versatile I started Showing in galleries and as my work was in selling I was on the street on 125th Street making and selling dashikis that brought in money as Time went on I would get a situation where people say can you do a mural? Can you write a book if it pays me? I can and I would do it and You just became or I became because a lot of my friends went to school. They did things a traditional way I went around that Sometimes you don't succeed when you go around that sometimes you don't succeed when you do things The way that you're supposed to and close to however, I think at the end of the day It's what is your work like? Do you have any work all it has important? I think Actually, I know it's not a thought I know that for me. I hope what happens with this show gives Gives us an opportunity To not comply with what has been given us like this institution somebody else Drift up this and this whole notion of museums and galleries and blah blah blah And we all just seem to like we're all trying to get in it We're all trying to be accepted by this thing that for me doesn't reflect how I might do it like if I had a completely Empty canvas I Don't think I'd come up with this and I'm hoping this show provides an opportunity to explore other ways of Presenting work of connecting work with the public than the ones we've got because this isn't too terribly successful Because of the number of people it excludes very Cognizant of the time, but I can't resist asking One last question if you all will bear with me. I'd love to know more about The questions that you wished people would have asked at that time Not all at once But I'd love to know what you wished and hoped that people would have asked at the time that it was being made You mean the work from the 70s. Yes, I'm sorry I don't know if it was about what people should have asked because I don't know if they knew really what to ask I Think the only thing I can think of as that time is that People could have asked why do you continue to do this? Obviously you're doing it for The broader good and that the fact that you as artists are Speaking from your own heart Maybe the way that I speak might not be the way that she speaks or he speaks but at least You can hear what I have to say even though just about Midtown Was a gallery Putting it on 57th Street in 1974 caused a lot of anger from the art world and they were just furious and Which just it's on some levels it surprised me Even though we were a gallery we did do things very differently than most galleries did them that were on 57th Street and The question I wish they would have asked What would be to themselves Why was the notion of something else some other possibility? So disturbing that it pushed them to anger Yeah, I find that the most strange and Unpleasant part of my success at the moment is that the work hasn't changed the world has the world's ability to see it has changed and I don't think that Had there been the lack of fear as you say the lack of feeling so Not challenge, but threatened Had not been so extreme that people would have been able to ask well. Why are you doing this or? What did you mean? Never really did get Questions that asked you to clarify or explain No, in fact, you know you didn't get questions at all You've just got attitude and the attitude was almost universally dismissive So bring it home Marin your wish your wish my wish Well, it's the same wish that I had during our meeting earlier today And it's the wish to be valued and the wish for all of us to be valued for our intelligence our gifts our Our hopes All of it any last questions from the audience. Yes before we Say our farewells want to come to the mic. Thank you So I do this project called is your house in order and I'm thinking about legacy building an Institution building and I know there's this idea of being in the museum, but I'm wondering What do you do to write your own history and What do you need from the next generation to help you do that? You know, I really think you have to have sympathetic people At the museum in the museum at the museum level you have to have people sympathetic to your ideas somehow Maybe a show like this changes May change minds or other show. Maybe this show will encourage other shows like this And maybe gradually minds will change But I think that's what we've all experienced here Which is Not being supported You know your ideas just not being supported So amongst yourselves you support one another, but the greater world the greater art world which is Seemingly filled with money for some people is is unavailable so it's hard and That is a great question you ask and How to gain support? That's the name of the game just about that's it you can get support from somebody. That's it Linda do you have concrete something I Don't know how concrete it is, but it's What comes to mind right now question, which is You know legacy it depends on how you define legacy so let me define for myself Legacy for me is not necessarily being in this institution or any other institution like it legacy for me is Let me put it this way the project eats project project eats the project. I'm doing now We do on homeless shelters we build urban farms on homeless shelters We build them in Neighborhoods Brownsville Crown Heights, East New York We have a farm site right on Washington in Eastern Parkway right on the grounds of this museum Legacy for me is that moment should it happen and God knows I hope it happens When the work that I do with people Causes a flicker of hope to go into the eyes of a homeless man Causes Possibility to be expressed by the students that go to school across the street here who we work with Causes a mother who is Beyond exhausted at the end of every day and coming home to an apartment that has more ills than you can imagine Being able to say I can change this and I have changed it. That's the legacy. I want all this shit. Don't mean nothing So Dingo McCannon Linda Bryant Loreno Grady and Marin Hassenger. Thank you so very much. Thank you. Thank you