 As I see it, you cannot separate humanitarian work from human rights work because in every crisis and even in ordinary situations in a country, you have to protect the human rights of people. So this is what I feel is the challenge for humanitarian work. That protection of civilians must mean, including not only the needs, the physical needs of civilians, whether they detainees or communities, but also their basic human rights. You talk there about the protection of civilians' basic rights. One of them is not to be abused, to be free of violence, sexual violence. Would you say that's an area that's been neglected and are we doing more than just talk now? I would immediately say we're doing more than talk now. If you look at the Security Council, they've addressed the issue head on. And here I should say, I agree with statements made by, say, Gloria Steinem, the women's rights leader in the United States, who's always saying it's because there's been impunity for domestic violence against women that this culture develops, that nothing's going to happen to you if you beat up women in the home. And that's the mentality that is practiced so freely in any conflict situation and explains why there's such a widespread incidence of violence against women in every conflict. Is it something as humanitarian that perhaps we've been slow to recognise? I mean, obviously we know it's an abuse that the victims are often very reluctant to talk about. If you send in male investigators, particularly of another race, this is how the Rwanda Tribunal investigation started, and this is why I understand the women were reluctant to speak. They can't just stand up in a public hall and talk about the violations. A lot has been done on methodology on how you approach women. I, as a judge on the Rwanda Tribunal, saw for myself victims of sexual violence. Did I ever tell you that I sat as a judge in this court and this witness was asked, yes, but did he penetrate your vagina with his penis? And now you see where that comes. The law has always seen rape and sexual violence as requiring proof of penetration. And what she answered was very instructive to me and she said, it's not only that, it's just everything else they did. These were young boys. I could have been their mother, they didn't respect me. And it's all the things they said as well that truly hurt me. So where I'm going with this is why it's so important to look at women's experience and listen, truly listen to their account. I'm interested since you brought up the subject of tribunals and your experience there. We know they're important, but how good have they been so far at really including the victims and understanding the point of view of the victims? I agree with the criticism that's been made by women's rights activists that, apart from a few judgements, mainly delivered by judicial panels on which women judges said that there has been no proper investigation of sexual violence. Also, it's not just prosecution that renders justice for victims. They must be seen as having a voice and unable to participate. Very few national systems have the victims participate in the proceedings. And as I was saying, it's not enough just to have prosecutions and convictions. You have to provide for remedies for victims. How well do you think that's working, though, remedies and, in fact, the international criminal court overall? There have been small efforts, for example in the DRC. In one village the women were very happy with a monument built, just a statue built, which empathises with their experience. Another group of women wanted a boat to take their vegetables to the market. This we were able to do because it's a small contribution. So, really, we have to ask the women what kind of remedies they seek. And you will be surprised. They don't ask for anything for themselves. They ask for education for their children's schools and, of course, health and medical treatment for their injuries.