 First order of business is the Pledge of Allegiance. Tim, you haven't done this in a while, right? Yeah. Thank you. It's been a long time. It has. I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. OK. Second item is instructions on exiting the building in case of an emergency and review of technology options. So for those joining us in the room, you can go out the rear of the auditorium on the left or right and go left or right to exit the building in an emergency. For those joining us remotely, thank you for joining us. If you'd like to talk during any item on the agenda, please turn your camera on and the chair will call on you. Or you can indicate that you'd like to talk in the chat and I will have the chair call on you. Other than that, we are not monitoring the chat for content. Thank you. Next item on I just would like to let people know that Councillor Emery will be a little late. Her daughter's band concert is tonight. And so she won't get here till 8. But she will be here. Item 3, agenda review. Are there any additions, deletions, or changes in order of agenda items? OK, seeing none. Are there any comments and questions from the public on matters not in the agenda? Linda, Bailey, your little green light isn't on, so we can't hear you yet. Linda, you've turned your camera off and you're muted. This is like me trying to shop online. I keep ordering either doubles or I don't actually put the order in or I send it to the wrong place. It's just, yeah. I can go back to her. OK, Linda, we'll go back to you. We won't ignore you just because you might have some technical difficulties at the moment. Are there any other comments or questions? All right, well, then we'll move on to councillor's announcements and reports on committee assignments. So Andrew, do you want to start? We have not been any committee meetings of mine since the last meeting. OK, Tim? Ditto, but had a very nice Thanksgiving holiday. Son came up from Boston. Whole family was there. In-laws were there. 21 and a half pound turkey. Ran the turkey trot 36th year straight at UVM. Good for you. How fast? You don't want to know. Some things shall be unmeasured. Nine and a half minutes a mile. Maybe 10, sorry. And on Saturday night, I went to see or hear the messiah performed by the South Burlington Community chorus. And it was wonderful. It was really great. It was at St. Michael's McCarthy Arts Center. Nice. And I tried to make a habit to go because when I was in high school, I performed it for the first time back in 74, 75, in a very small church with a harpsichord and a violin, viola, and cello. And a chorus of about 15 people and four wonderful soloists. I mean, so that's my standard. And this was really good. And the soloists were great. So it's always great to. And you know what? I think it competes with the harmonic. No problem in my part. Great. So when you're off the city council, you're going to join the class? Well, I read their criteria. And it's, you know, I might be able to work something out. I can read a little music. I can hold a note. That sounds great. We'll see what happens. That's two out of probably three requirements, right? Larry. And I don't have anything else to report. OK. Thanksgiving greetings. OK. And the only thing I did was attended a school city leadership meeting. And we went over some kind of dates around the budget. And one of the things that we were informed is that they have included 50% of the cost for crossing guards in their budget, $30,000. And in our conversations, I indicated to Jesse, and I may be wrong. So this doesn't require you to support that. But I had thought after our last meeting, the conversations on the council were that people were in favor of matching the $30,000 for the crossing guards. And so Jesse put it in the budget. You may have noticed it. If that was not your wishes, if I read the tea leaves wrong, that's fine. We can change that. I don't mean to put you in a weird spot. But either way, we would have to discuss it. From our district. No, city what? Yes, that's why it's $30,000. Well, it's a total of $60,000. It's $10,000. So we can discuss that. I just had thought that's what I heard the majority. I knew you had some challenges. Do you want to talk about the business tonight? Well, I think that's part of the budget. Yeah, I'm just letting you know ahead of time the reason it's in the budget is that I suggested that we put it in so we can have that conversation. Because that's what I thought the majority were in favor of. But I could be wrong. So we can always change that. They talked a lot about the machinations of coming up with their yield numbers and all that. So I don't know how they keep track of it. Good thing I'm not on the school board. And of course, they really won't know anything till the spring after our budgets are passed. And it sounds like they have a lot of moving parts that are, I think, really problematic for the city and for the schools. And it's, again, one of those things where we can talk about in future conversations growth, that its impact on the schools and what growth does to our yield and all the things, all the parts of that very long formula. But I commiserated with them. It's really a challenge. So anyway, and I think coming away, I thought it was a very, very cordial, productive, supportive meeting. Can I add one thing to that? Yes, you may. It was a wonderful meeting in partnership with Kate and Violet. We also talked about the Steering Committee meeting. Oh, that's right. I'm sorry. Right. And so we are going to have a Steering Committee in January. 22nd. 22nd. It will be here, although Kate's going to chair it because it's traditionally, we've sort of flipped it back and forth, and I've been doing it just because it's been here. But I thought she should have a chance. And we'll be talking about our budgets then. But we also will, I hope, talk about some of the kind of financial or policy pressures that both the city is facing for future budgets and the school. So we can not be definitive in that we know we're going to have a bond of $60 million or $160 million. But rather, these are some of the challenges that both parts of the city budget that the taxpayers pay. And I thought that would be good to start those conversations and get a sense of what some of the challenges might be. And they were amenable to that. I think in the past, they were like, oh, we don't want to talk about the future. But they agreed that we can talk about it in general terms and start that conversation so it isn't lamb bang in the future. Thank you. That's all I have. I had a wonderful Thanksgiving as well. All 15 of us and one big house in Park City. It was great. Had a little bit of snow. It was fun. Lots of games, lots of food. I think Linda Bailey came back on. OK. I think she's too strung to. Linda, would you like to raise your issue now? Yes, not. OK. So Jesse, you want to give us the city manager report? Yes, thank you. First, I want to acknowledge that yesterday was Holly Reese's birthday. And we should all wish her a happy birthday. You don't look any older, really. You're younger. Should we sing? Go if you're going to lead the chorus. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday to you. Happy birthday, dear Holly. Happy birthday to you. Here we go. I thought we should just hear Kim's voice. Nice voice. The audition. So I have a bunch of updates tonight. First, on Friday, the Vermont Police Academy graduated their next class. So police officers Justin Mackey and Lucy Craydon graduated from the academy. So they'll now start their field training and then be in patrol rotation once they're ready. Also, Lieutenant Petai received the instructor award from the class. This is a really special award because it's voted on by the recruits. Oh, wow. It's the third class in a row that he has received this award as the lead criminal law instructor trainer for the academy. So well done on three different fronts. We are, as you know, in the process of doing a number of different system modernization efforts in the city. One of those is to modernize our code of ordinances. So right now you probably know that some of our ordinances are on our website. Most of them are not searchable. Not all of them are on the website. It's hard to know how to update them. So actually starting back with Andrew Baldock and then Colin and Donna Kinville and now Holly have been going through a process of modernizing our code, getting it into an online system that's used by many, many municipalities and we're almost ready to launch it. So we are going to ask you to adopt those as to form in the next couple of months and then we will go through and do any ordinance updates we want to that code. But it will ensure that all of our ordinances are online and they are completely searchable. So just a heads up that that is coming at one of your future meetings. Today Alana and I had our first introductory meeting with Wagner Hodgins who are the architects that we have hired to look at the city center public space effort. So we are kicking that off. We are anticipating a community meeting. We gave them direction today to do that right after town meeting day so as not to kind of muck up in the pre-town meeting day public engagement efforts as well as the active transportation master plan kickoff efforts. So we're trying to kind of have the public engaged incrementally. They are starting it now and they will have the community engagement process in March to hear about what other folks want as part of that process. So will we hear about things before town meeting, just as a council? Will you hear about what things? Whatever they're thinking about. So no, you probably won't because their final recommendations will include the feedback of the community. So you will hear from them in probably late April early or late May early June with their recommendations. Greg wanted to share that update on our charge point systems. We have 12 of our chargers actively functioning. We're averaging about 65 unique drivers a month at those stations and raising about $285 a month from those. The planning commission has started their review of the proposed amendments to be consistent with act 47 in the home act. So that will be coming to you once they have completed their process. As Helen probably knows also Paul is participating with the airport in the noise exposure map updates. These are the projections of the impact of the sound from the airport in 2024 and 2029. The technical advisory committee has met if any members of the community would like to kind of track what is going on with that effort. All of those meeting, all that meeting, those meeting packets and information is available at btvsound.com. Colin and Jennifer and I and Daisy continue to work with AFSCME to have our library employees recognized by our AFSCME union and appreciate the partnership of both the union group and the employees and we'll have some news on that shortly. Holly wanted to share that at the end of December she will pose the public petition and dates for town meeting day. So that information is in development now and will be forthcoming soon. Paul and I are engaging with principal Lyssa at Rickmark Hot School on some really exciting efforts that the teachers and leadership have led around naming the street with the students. So we're going to have some fun community engagement events with the students around that, so more to come. And then some fun community events underway. The library is hosting three days of crafty town vacation camp this month as well as continuing the knit for your neighbors program. If folks are interested in that it's all on their website. Spark the park on Friday night was great. Thank you all to the community. Thank you to all the community members who came out despite the weather. That will continue to run nightly through January 7th. And then stay tuned to social media for the holiday lights contest that will kick off this week. That's what I have. Okay. Thank you. Any questions or comments? All righty. So we'll move on to the consent agenda. There's a lot of items. Let me count them up. There are 10 items on the consent agenda. Disbursements, minutes, approval of Rai Meadows plowing and the medallist drive plowing and Sadie Lane plowing agreements to rather similar but each are a separate street. Approving the energy efficiency and conservation block grant program application for the replacement of HVAC units with heat pumps at the public works garage. Award an airport parkway facility solids handling upgrade final engineering contract to Aldrich and Elliott water resource engineers. Approve the V trans remote transportation alternatives program grant application for the Adelphia cable pond scoping project. Approve V trans municipal highway and stormwater mitigation program grant for the replacement of culverts in Butler farms and Oak Creek village. And lastly, approve resolution 2023 dash 18 expanding the composition of the energy committee and appoint Brittany Baldwin and Marley Houser to each serve three-year terms. So I'll move that we approve the consent agenda as just listed. Second. Is there any discussion? I would just be interested in learning a bit about the HVAC units that we're applying for. Just are they cold climate heat pumps and do we have matching and where the funds are coming from? I think it's an exciting project that would be good for the public to know and personally to know a bit about. So Paul or Tom can talk about the HVAC units that Lou is submitting the grant for? Or Greg? We can wait till next time. I'll just be interested in learning a bit more about that. Maybe next time we can have we can approve it. Is that okay? And just get some more information. Yeah, either in a memo or. That's fine. I think at a council meeting probably because as you say that public might be interested. I did have one question. Okay. About the disbursements. Does anybody know what type of maintenance Smafford did on the geothermal? I'm just curious Lou. Hey, Lou. Oh, here's Lou. Wow. Well, it's everything. Please sit down. Up front. He knows when to arrive. There was a question about the HVAC. Grant proposal. What kind of people? I'm sorry. You and I talked a little bit about this. I'm just interested in knowing where it all came out. Everyone said. Right in the middle. Well, first of all, before I got here, where are you in the middle of the consent agenda? We're in the middle of it. Yeah. Oh, okay. That's why we're having the discussion. Okay. Yes. Andrew and I had a discussion about heat pumps. About a month ago, I think. That caused me and Greg to go back and talk to the supplier that we had been talking to about that subject. And we got a bit of an education. The education was the following. Heat pumps for residential units are functioning a whole lot better than industrial ones at this point in time. And they operate at much lower temperatures, which is I think where you were probably coming from. We expressed a rather strong desire to use as little natural gas as possible. And we were informed that not only was this supplier or company, they buy from everybody, but other companies in the area are not buying commercial units that will go to the extremely low temperatures for two reasons. One, the cost is about four times as high as you would be for what we're planning on buying. And two, there's some concern about reliability at this point in time because they're relatively new. So on that basis, one other thing that we learned and the units that we're talking about buying have this feature. And that is you can adjust the temperature that it switches from being a heat pump to a gas supply unit. Heat pumps work great when the temperature outside is 40 degrees Fahrenheit. Most of us know that or aware of that. And the lower the temperature gets, the less efficient they'll become. This transfer point is somewhere depending on the unit in the low 30s. Is this for commercial? For commercial units, yes, for commercial units. And when I say the transfer point is, that's the point at where the cost of running it, the cost of running it electric versus natural gas is about the same. The heat pump will continue to function as a heat pump even at lower temperatures. You get down to around zero when it's not doing anything at this point. The other study that I did in the process of this was how many hours does the temperature get below 20 degrees Fahrenheit, 10 degrees Fahrenheit, and zero during a year? And I looked at last year and I was rather, yes, last year was a warm year, but only trying to remember the numbers now. But it was less than two-tenths of a percent of the time between November through April that we get below zero. Now, I also remember that I moved up here in the end of 1968 and I was told that that was the cold's winter and ever. And so I went back and checked that. That same two-tenths of a percent went up to almost 20% in that year. So, you know, you're rolling the dice. I did check one in the middle and as I came out in the middle, so forth. Anyhow, that was the reasoning behind going with where we are, what we're suggesting at this point in time. Okay. Is that? Thank you. And the other question was, what type of maintenance did Spafford do on the geothermal? Because it was in the disbursement. The term. Come up to the mic, please. Thank you. Come on down. What they did was they checked out the pumps themselves, make sure there was no damage because we did. There was a vein of calcium material that let go in the river that feeds the pumps up or the line up. And so they checked that out. We ran it for eight hours into the storm drain, and it cleared itself. So the well itself had encountered some sort of contamination? Not contamination per se as a contaminant, but yes, the channel that the water is flowing through let go some calcium material. It's not uncommon to do that. So we had to clear it and knock on wood. It seems to have cleared itself out, and we don't have an issue as of now. But you did have an issue. We did have a little bit of an issue. Yeah, with only one of the pumps. Okay. So you noticed some alarm went off on one pump? Yes. Okay. Yes, the pressure got extremely high, which shut that pump down. Oh, okay. And then you called Spanford. That was a failsafe. Yeah, I understand that. Thank you. Interesting changing the filters in those. I'll show you some time. I'd like to see it. I remember when the heat exchanger was visible on our walks through. It's pretty amazing, and it's extremely tight in there to change those filters out. And so between my facilities manager, Eric and myself, Mutton Jeff, we were able to, I was able to work the low and he was able to work the high to get them out. But I'll show you. Okay. There was a lot of room before they put the walls up. Oh, yes. Right, right. Yeah. Well, next time you can use Councillor Barrick for the tall one. Perfect. He's so interested. We can do that. He would like some training. Thanks for the information. You're welcome. Thanks, Greg. Okay. Are there any other questions? Hearing none, if you're ready for the vote, all in favor of approving the consent consent agenda. As presented signify by saying aye. It carries. So now we go to. The really fun part tonight. Is the item seven. The FY 25 budget. Great. Thank you very much. I think it's a lot of work. I think it's a lot of work. It's one of our favorite nights of the year. It is. This is a lot of work. So I have the. Extreme privilege of being able to present this. Proposed city manager's leadership team budget to you all, but I want to call out that our leadership team is almost all in the room. And just for those. For in the community who may not know, or for counselors who just need a quick reminder. To present this budget to you, especially Martha. Our finance director who really. Led the charge of this effort. So thank you, Martha. You know, lose Brazil. Erica Quallen is our deputy director of public works for capital projects and is primarily responsible for building our capital. Budget. Tom DiPiccio is our public works director. Colin McNeil is our city attorney. Chris Corbin is our deputy fire chief, our fire chief and deputy city manager is currently in Texas at the international association of fire chiefs at his annual meeting. He is the treasurer for that international organization. So he is available by phone if we need him, but at that meeting tonight. Sean Burke, our police chief. Paul Connor, our director of planning and zoning. Nick Jingo, our IT director who has recently joined us. You met him a couple of meetings ago. A lot of blanchard our community development director. You just heard from Greg Yando, our facilities director. Jennifer Murray is our library director. Adam math recently joined us as our recreation and parks director. Andy Brumba is here as our communication and outreach coordinator. And Holly Reese is our city clerk for this budget. And birthday girl. And Daisy Brayton is online as well with us tonight. So tonight I am the real purpose of tonight's meeting is to walk you through this proposed budget. The two key questions I see for you tonight are, do you have any clarifying questions for what was presented? And is there additional information you need to make decisions? As you know, you have about the next six weeks to work on this budget, make it your own and come to some decisions about what you're comfortable sending to the voters. There is a lot of information in your packet tonight. That information is also for the community. All published here on this website. If any of the counselors would like hard copies of any of this material, we are happy to give that to you as well. I think it's always important. The leadership team hears me say this a lot as we're having these kinds of large policy conversations to talk to start with who we are and who we represent and who we serve. So here are some statistics, census data that we go over quite often with our second largest city in the state, population of 20,000. We find it very interesting and think about a lot as we think about delivering services that almost 13% of our community speaks the language other than English at home. As you all know, we have right now, 53% of our housing is in single families. Although 64% of our housing developed since the year 2000 was built in multifamily units. So as we think about providing public spaces, providing services, providing opportunities for people to connect, that's really important to us. And then of course, 51% of our land is park space, conserved space, common land, or regulated to prohibit development. And then who we are as a team. So you all are a huge part of us providing this service to our community. So we have about 185 staff across 14 departments and three labor groups. We also have all of you obviously, as well as 122 volunteers who serve in an advisory capacity to the council and to staff on a monthly basis. So with that, we have built a proposed FY 25 budget for you to consider. As you may remember at our September 18th meeting, you set a series of high level goals for this budget process. Martha provided you at that meeting, a memo that indicated that at that point in time, what we knew, which was, please remember, two months into the fiscal year, 10 months before the start of this fiscal, this budget year we're talking to you about tonight, we projected a 5.8% increase in the tax rate for operations at that point. So what we heard from you was that you would like to continue the level of services that we currently provide to the community. You would like to implement the year two investments that we talked about last budget cycle. You'd like for us to maximize the non-property tax revenue and you are hoping that the tax rate increase would not exceed 5%. We also heard from you that you want to implement a number of policy positions. So with the climate action plan adopted in the fall, last fall in the fall of 2022, we staff has been working on a transportation implementation plan associated with that climate action plan and a government operations implementation plan. So in October and November of this year, we brought you those implementation plans and the funding associated. Those plans are in your budget book for you to consider and I've snapshot here some of the key goals. I'm also happy to give you, it's easier for us to work on over time the kind of CIPs associated with these plans for the next couple of years. You also indicated that you would like to look at increasing the housing trust fund to $150,000 a year. As the chair said at the beginning of the meeting, consider funding 50% of the citywide crossing guards for $30,000 and consider funding the Infinite Youth Center. You have funded that with surplus in the last couple of years and given that surplus funding, I want to give you the option of building it into the budget. So those are the two high level sets of policy goals that we set. We also based our proposed budget on an additional set of assumptions. Again, we are right now about seven months away, only five months into this current fiscal year. So these are assumptions and projections and budgets are always such. So we are assuming a 2% growth in the total grand list that is based not on our guests, that is based on the permits we are currently seeing pulled and the construction we are currently seeing on the ground. That 2% brings in about $462,000 of new property tax revenue with that grand list growth. We are also assuming a 4.4 growth in the TIF grand list. That's all the construction we see next door. We're assuming 7% increase in local options tax and that really is based on what the receipts we are seeing on the ground as we build out a very conservative local options tax projections as we came out of COVID. We've also made a number of assumptions about increases in investment income, ambulance revenue and permitting fees that we've seen in last year. We have contractual obligations of a cola of 2.8% and related step increases. As you likely know, the legislature last session approved a new childcare contribution payroll tax to fund childcare needs statewide and subsidies for families who are struggling. That is a 0.33% payroll tax on our wages so that equals $48,000 of new expenses to the city. That's the employer share. Our health... Is there a share for the individual? Yes, the individuals will pay 0.11%. So it's a 0.44% payroll tax. We are required to pay 0.33%, they pay 0.11%. 0.44 total payroll tax. Our health insurance, we had a very high claims year. Our health insurance rates are going up 16% and our property and equipment insurance is going up 8%. So with all of that, and I'm going to go through what is the individual things in each of these budgets but I know folks like to jump to the numbers. I also have the council printed you out a full slide of these numbers if it's easier to look at on paper. So what this shows here is an operations budget. That's the budget we built to provide, to continue doing exactly what we are doing now to continue those operation, the operation of the city. This is a chart you are used to seeing that results in a two penny, two and a quarter penny increase on the tax rate or 4.8% increase on the tax rate with the average condo owner anticipated to pay $66 and the average homeowner anticipated to pay $98. We have then added on to that operations budget what we are calling your climate and policy budget. So those things on that slide that you have asked us to look at. So with that added expense, we are looking at a 8.2% increase in the tax rate or 4 cents for an impact on the average condo owner of $119 next year and $176 for a single family homeowner. So just a quick speaking point on this for the operations budget. This includes $2.6 million of new expenses. So new money that we have to pay to maintain the operations of the city. $1.4 million of that is proposed to be raised by property taxes but with that grand less growth it's less than $1 million of new property taxes that the current taxpayers will have to pay or shoulder. So we have $1.3 million of new revenues anticipated in this budget. Please stop me if I am being confusing. So far so good. So I want to call out some of the big changes in each of the budgets. So in the FY25 general fund operations budget, so this is to continue current service, the year two investments that we talked about in FY24 include restoring public works highway position, restoring the youth services police sergeant and fully implementing the second ambulance. We also have increased funding for a number of different service needs. These needs really focus on modernizing systems on public safety and obviously here you see the GMT increase as well of 10% that they are passing on to us this year. We are adding two new staff capacities with this operations budget. One is a new 19 hour a week position in the library and one is to move one of our community justice centers staff who is currently part time to full time and pay for the benefits associated with that full time position through the general fund. This is the first time the general fund will be actively supporting the community justice center. We have solely used grant state grant funding in the past and really believe with the centrality of community justice to how we provide public safety it's important for us to start contributing property tax dollars to that effort. And then we have funded some efforts that we've talked about for several years to ensure the success of city center with funding for illuminate Vermont which you previously use fund balance for but we hope to continue as an annual event and money to see the start of a downtown association. We talked about that a little as the council did the tour of city center recently having a downtown association to really build vibrancy in our community. Can I just ask on that issue is that how would that work with the SBBA? So I will start and ask Alana to enhance. So a downtown association would really be primarily focused on city center and not city wide. SBBA is city wide. Okay. Yeah and traditionally a downtown association focuses on the vibrancy from a fun activities cozy feeling and doing some strategic looking forward and advocacy but really focused around that look feel and economic function versus a city wide. Okay. So the SBBA still would have a big role. They would certainly still have a big role in supporting the businesses themselves. Okay. Can I ask a question on that? Please. Would that downtown include the university mall and the blue mall? Yes, that's part of our city center. Okay, great. Good questions. So then I want to call out a few as you know every year we present to you a 10-year capital improvement plan for across all of our funds. This is how we are allocating those dollars this fiscal year in part the new things that we have shifted around within the funding previously talked about for FY 25. So as you can see with this capital improvement plan this year we are really focusing on ensuring a successful TIF and traffic and safety improvement. So you see here the Heinzburg Road traffic signal increasing funding for sidewalks and traffic calming and including a placeholder $100,000 for the anticipated school safety needs at Dorset Street. We are also starting to fund in part in this budget equipment that we will need to maintain city center which is slightly different from the equipment we currently have to plow the big roads and sidewalks and paths throughout the city. Can you remind me what the fire station alerting is? I certainly can ask the Deputy Fire Chief to come and talk about that. This is why you guys shouldn't sit back despite how they're sitting in the auditorium right now they really do like each other. Maybe they don't like us because they're woohoo. That is not true. So the fire station alerting that we currently have which turns on lights and bells and whistles basically for the most part can you make sure the green is bright? How's that? There we go. The fire station alerting system that turns on lights when we have an emergency or activates the bells gives us the emergency message over the radio over the PA is about right now 20 years old. Oh, okay. So it's an internal thing and the new system would actually bring forward electronic voices which are better for everybody to wake up to in the middle of the night and be able to really control who got woken up when and so on and so forth. Thank you. So Chief, is it fair to say that this is also an improvement linked to our new CAD system so if there's a call that's being dispatched on the southern Shelburne roadside only station two would be alarmed not station one and station two? Correct. It actually also takes a little bit more because once they type in the information into the CAD the computer then essentially will dispatch us. Computer generated voices. Computer rated dispatching. Just so the public knows and I know. Absolutely. Thank you. So the computer generated voice won't mispronounce any street names for people's names? It'll probably do a pretty good job. Pretty good job. Can you talk about the $100,000 for Dorset Street school safety needs and what those components might be? I'm just curious. So we don't yet know what those components will be. You previously allocated funding for us to do engineering this winter as we prepare for paving that phase of Dorset Street next summer to think about what are the appropriate traffic calming things to put into place. So that work is currently underway. This is a placeholder for our ability to actually build that next summer when we do the repaving of that phase of Dorset Street. Good Tom. Good questions. Anything else? Keep going. What's the compact? That's a good one. That's a good question. Tom, come on up. That's a great question. It's not the geothermal system. Good evening. Good question, Tim. What is it? What is a compact wheel loader? Well, it's a smaller loader. A compact loader than we have today. It's smaller than we have today and it'll allow us to get in some tighter spaces whether it be a pedestrian bridge or a downtown. So it'll help us sort of clean up this area in the future. Manage snow. What is a wheel loader? Oh, sorry, a loader. A big machine with a big bucket on the front. Oh, okay. Is this just a smaller version of that that you can use in parking lots? Yeah. Sorry. So what this is is with the TIF projects underway in city center, how we are going to maintain city center will look much different when we have bike lanes and a pedestrian bridge and whatnot that it does currently citywide. So as you build the CIP reserve fund capability because that's a pretty expensive piece of equipment we're starting to partially fund those years year to year. So when we get to the point of needing that to maintain city center we will have the funding ready to go. And that won't be till it's all built out or will happen sooner? The purchase? When we need it, yes. We can use this at any time. We would love to add this to our fleet where we're fully built out garden streets open, especially when the pedestrian bridge over 89 is open to the public. We're going to need a more versatile piece of equipment. Okay. So is the partial funding, is the plan to have the money you need over three years or four years or two years? I'd say two or three. I can't remember. I did actually go through the CIP two years. Okay. Thank you. So one of the fun things about the bike pad bridge over the interstate is that we can't push snow onto the interstate so it changes how we do winter operations. Oh, you can't. Shocking, right? Thanks, Tom. No convertible driving in the winter. Okay. So those were the summary slides about operations budget. On the climate budget, this is what is included in that new $607,000 that we are proposing to use for your policy, for your climate part of your policy budget this year. So what you see on this slide is the list of CIP items that were partially funded in the operations budget or where we could reallocate CIP money to those efforts. The delta is where the thing we were going to buy is less expensive than the hybrid or other version of it so that delta is in the climate policy budget and then you have the investments for the transportation climate action plan implementation and then we are recommending one full-time employee to lead projects and identify opportunities and $75,000 for consulting plans as needed. Our sincere hope is that this person not only can coordinate and lead these efforts but also find additional outside grant opportunities, leverage grant opportunities into the city and hopefully offset some of the costs that you see in the out year portions of both the transportation and government operations portion of the implementation plans. As you know, those dollars range from about $2 million a year to about $10 million a year that we would need to build up if we were solely doing it on our own. My computer is telling me I have lost internet so hold on for a second. So does that make sense how we've outlined those costs? Is that another way of sending any questions? Are you saying any questions now? Any questions? Or do you have any questions on this? I do but are we doing that now or should we wait? Sure. Do it now. Okay. I think that's okay with you isn't it? Sure. Okay, so I'm just wondering about kind of accounting and placement of some of these items like the window replacement or is that part of climate policy or is that kind of maintenance? And then I'm wondering about the FTE. Is that the portion that's not funded by AWPR or is that assuming we don't use AWPR for that? Oh, good question. So Erica or Martha or Tom whoever wants to talk about how you've broken out this chart. Come on now. The staffing is assuming no ARPA costs for staffing. This is a staff person that we think we are going to need for the next six years to implement the two implementation plans so we are not assuming that the use of one time funding for that we have built it into the budget. Okay, that's different than what we've been discussing as a council. Yes. Okay. And then at some point I'd just like to know which actions comprise the transportation climate action components that are here. Actually, I have one more question on this page. The public works charging station. I thought we applied for a grant for that. So I'm just curious what that is above and beyond the which thing? The second line facility and charging station. So I can answer your first two questions. I will need some support from folks behind me on the third question. So the way that this was broken out as we went through the initial budget and the previous CIPs looked at what projects were coming online anyway which ones were being carried through from last year. And then if any of them were climate related and there was a cost difference between the base model, if you will compared to the more energy efficient one, that difference is what is falling under the climate policy budget here. So an easy example of that is fleet. If we wanted to get a new SUV for public works that we drive around in and the gasoline version would be 35 but the electric version was 50 that 15 is what is brought in here. So that's the example for the electric lawn mower it costs an extra $10,000 to get the electric version. And so for things like windows or where HVAC units are being replaced if the more energy efficient model costs more that went in this climate policy budget. Does that make sense? I guess. I don't know why I would break it out that way. It doesn't really reflect I guess the savings over time in a sense, right? Right and this is very much for the capital portion of it that's not to say we haven't done necessarily the life cycle in here of your operating budget in 10 years. What energy savings will be over that time period. So this is just the difference in the capital cost. These are the dollars we have to spend this year to realize. And this is net of grants like for the lawn mower. A lot of these are not some of them are the ones that I know for sure are the active transportation projects. There's some grant assumption there on top of the 100,000 shown and some of them we had been saving up for and had some funds in a CIP reserve like the DPW facility and charging stations. There was some previously allocated money in previous CIPs and there was one other allocation. I don't remember the source. So perhaps to follow up in future budgets if this is approved and we do invest in all of these different items on the policy budget could we then in future years have the report on the savings which you you might factor in which I suppose provides for some additional alternative funding to support these that kind of savings and revenue savings or I don't know what term you would use but the reduction in buying gasoline for the mowers. It makes it a lot easier to think about approving these if you see over time you're actually saving money. I was just going to say maybe the first year that's just a projection but next year you might be able to quantify that so yes we can absolutely report on savings over time. Quite frankly the challenge with us in building this FY25 climate policy budget is this is the smallest year of dollars we're going to need to implement the two implementation plans and it's capital outlay we need to have cash on hand to buy these things next year we haven't realized those savings yet. If you want to implement the two implementation plans as presented that includes not only the $607,000 in this year's budget includes between $2 million and $10 million annually for the next six years so if we need to start building tax capacity to do that so while there may be energy cost savings over time it's not going to close those gaps. We can cross that bridge. Well you've directed us with a set of policies and we are trying to tell you how we implement those policies. Did we answer all your questions Andrew? The FTE again the FTE does not include the opera correct so the ARPA funds we only have access to through 2026 this is a person that we think we are going to need through the life of meeting that 2030 goal so we have built it into our operation into the operations plus capital budget. Did you want me to run through the transportation projects also this is good timing for you to get here Megan. So I have this laid out I'm going to just run through a few of these that I had laid out a number of them fall into that consulting budget line and the FTE because they are more the ongoing effort things like that required LDR amendments and some initial studies are primarily falling into those categories and are ongoing some of the bigger ones one that we did not include this year is the micro transit one which was at about two thirds of a million dollars estimated for FY25 but we are waiting on Green Mountain Transit to finish their initial study so that we're not duplicating efforts or investing a lot of money in the wrong place so that is one that is being pushed out the walk bike plan is ongoing so that is not included here because that was funded through the FY24 and the other big one is investing in public transit and that is being shown this year at that 75 thousand and that is going to be one that really ramps up and one that will likely transition into operating as dues but there are some initial capital costs associated with studying potential changes to routes or new routes or making some of our own city investments in transit so the 175 is pretty much for studies at this point the active transportation projects are not, those are to get more aggressive on projects coming out of the active transportation plan there's already the pretty hefty bike ped budget that doesn't really touch general fund and so this is for us to be just take on more projects and have some more money for matches and going into design and construction of additional bike ped projects other questions? so there will be future abilities to argue about these line items one at a time we're getting an overview right now this is the overview we have a couple weeks to stew about anything you want to stew about yeah thank you so if you can keep asking her questions that would be great because I seem to have been kicked off the internet again Nick what's happening yes the point for tonight is initial the initial layout ask any questions you have so you know what's in front of you and then provide us any questions you may have for any additional data needs you may have are the current windows are they single pane or double pane does anybody know it depends on the building but most of them are double or triple pane but are triple panes some of the seals are broken and the other thing she was Erica was alluding to is the frames are not insulated so you actually have especially at the fire station also at the police station and most definitely at DPW you have a draft that comes up through and comes through that channel it's cold windows windows are not all created equal no they're not answer your questions thank you Larry had some so I do appreciate this format in terms of seeing the cost of improvements that we need to make from a climate perspective be interested to see what the public has to say about it because this is public information now and to see this distinction here and I mean getting the details of some of these real plans in terms of energy enhancements and so on I think is important but just to see the difference in the base what we need to do to continue and what we need to do to make some improvements I think is a good format so thanks okay there's no more questions I could go back and ask earlier questions if you're still stuck oh we can wait till the end no I'm good I'm back up okay let me have some questions from the oh do you want it I don't know when the time how would you like to do it why don't we go back and so when we get to the end all of the questions have been asked so which page do you want to go back to number the actual cash increase in health insurance costs Martha can find that so while she finds that do you have other specific questions the cash outlay for the new staff capacity for the new staff capacity for the library and community justice center is that it for cash are the 19 hour part times are they eligible for health insurance the paving is that for road paving on page 10, 150,000 increase is that all for roads yes so for the prior CIPs I think we have funded paving at $850,000 a year and the council has always been interested in increasing that to a million dollars so that's what's that delta is the $150,000 of new money to get to the million dollars for paving okay I think those are my questions great do you mind if I keep going while she does calculations so Andrew actually you brought up the good point about the staffing for the climate budget and ARPA so on this slide you see what we are proposing to use ARPA funding for in the FY25 budget it's a $675,000 total allocation so that includes balance of what we need to fund the market heinsberg road light that is something that has historically it's a $650 $650,000 piece of infrastructure has not been in the past CIP so with the $100,000 in the budget the money previously approved and this money is what gets us to that amount we need to implement that traffic signal we have previously talked about $125,000 for the parks master plan that would match the grant that Paul and his team put in and then also includes what I call the Bob Britt match or the heinsberg road shared use path grant match for that connection and then I've included here so you have it as a resource for these conversations your balance of both ARPA and surplus funding available so you could add other things into this ARPA list or take things out of this ARPA list if you would like does the remaining ARPA funds include this, not include the $675,000 you have not, the $2.1 million is what you have not yet allocated and you have not yet voted to allocate those above things so the $675,000 would need to come out of the $2.1,000 it would have to come out of the $2.1,000 so we have a proposal for and then anticipated surplus side just so the public understands we are suggesting that we invest some of that to maintain a six month balance so on this, in this little chart you see going down from the top with the FY, if you don't mind me just taking a minute to walk through this, because I want you all to have it as a resource so your FY, the fund balance at the end of FY22 was $2.8 million going down next the unaudited FY23 surplus $2.3 million to date you have already allocated $1.1 million of surplus so the unaudited available FY23 fund balance is $4.1 million your policy states that we have to maintain a minimum of 5.3% of the operating budget of cash on hand and I believe that's a quarter or 30 days Martha's doing math so that's 2.5 million to maintain your max that you can maintain is 5.1 million so you can maintain up to 16% of the operating budget for cash on hand anything over that your policy says you have to reinvest or reallocate it so in theory if you take the unaudited amount minus the 4.1 million minus the 2.5 million gives you the 1.5 million available for allocation or you could keep it in the fund to build up to that $5.1 million cushion cash cushion so just so the public knows the 5.1 million is a goal it is not an allocated amount from the surplus it's the max that we could put in there so that's the goal that's not necessarily the goal the goal is between 8.3% it's a cap you want the minimum at least in theory you're not supposed to go below the minimum you have the minimum now and our auditor has been pushing for the 16% correct? or not? not necessarily the auditor will push to maintain the 8% the overall point of the surplus side is that we are very fiscally healthy having that cash on hand to address emergencies address mid-year needs is a privilege that we have as a community so that's a swing of the pendulum from when we were in the pandemic coming out of the pandemic so some voters might say oh you've oversubscribed the property tax revenue right because look at the surplus that you have at this point we have to be sensitive to that the surpluses are primarily a result of revenues significantly outperforming projections that we made during covid we didn't know how restaurants and hotels we have a better handle now on what the future projections are for those those revenues right? assuming the economy stays functioning but you're right Tim to bring up for FY22 we hadn't hit that minimum balance in the fund balance so this is a new hard work of you all and the leadership team to achieve a healthy fund balance but you've also included in the revenue forecast a conservative number so the the hope might be it's possible to have another surplus next year so our goal is always to stay in the black so we are likely to end the fiscal year with a surplus I don't think we will I mean we'll know this better after the next quarters reports I don't think we will end up with a surplus that we have seen in the past years because just as a reminder to the council last year we collected a million dollars of local options receipts for what we budgeted coming out of COVID we are now truing that up so in this budget projection when I talked earlier about the 1.3 million dollars of new revenues that we are building into this budget to lower that property tax burden that is mostly from closing those surplus gaps it's a weird way to say that but truing up what our actual receipts are to make it more accurate we are still conservative but we are accurately conservative I hope it's a projection it's a projection do you have cash numbers? I do but before I said while we are still on the fund ball and the 8% is 60 days two months we are recommended in the 16% that is the recommended amount 8% is required 16% is recommended we can go up to 25% so the three numbers that were asked CJCE the 16,000 for the benefits 16,000 the 16.4% increase it results in 16,000 so you had three different one was CJCE 19 hours and the health insurance so I'm trying to break the three of them out okay CJCE 16,000 is that all in is that just comp or does that include that's just benefit so the salaries the wages will be paid with grant but the benefit are proposed to be paid with general fund money so that's our total share of 16 correct it's just the benefit to the part time okay and the library person 19 our position is 23,000 23 and that's kind of fully loaded with all our cost health insurance and everything there's no health cost because it's a part time position okay it's just FICA and the wages and the health insurance 16% that is 633,000 loss okay thank you so tell me what happened with the health care cost increase I mean I know that the state has been talking about that and Governor Scott had a news item recently about his worries about an 18.5% close to 20% property tax increase probably mostly education and health care cost related so the city has a sort of unique application for its health care system sort of a captive model right and you have a clinic that's shared with some other businesses right so but you said that there were some some outlays that were in excess of what you anticipated or yeah so I'll start but Martha jump in here so and this is a this would be a good area for us to bring you some more data so if you remember from the past couple of budget cycles our health insurance increases have been hovering around um 8% I can't it was somebody's mic was on our health insurance increases have been hovering below the market increases so we've been 6 to 8% in years when it's been 11 to 12% in the market so we've been below for a while additionally we have a captive we are part of a captive so we actually pay the claims of our employees and our retirees who have not yet hit their retirement benefit and we had a very high claims year so we had a number of claimants who hit our stop loss coverage and a number of claimants who were hovering right below our stop loss coverage and when you're you know the advantage of a captive is you have some years that perform really well and you can stay below and then you have some years where you don't and have to increase to make up for those claims and is there like a re-insurance model that takes care of when you hit that threshold yes so when we hit a certain threshold our we could stop loss or re-insurance picks up those particular claimants but you have to hit that hit that level of claim and is that premium going up as well is that part of the problem yes yes so I think it might be worth we can put together a couple of years of past data of this to look at we certainly hope that this level does not maintain and to finish that thought you're absolutely right that the providers costs are increasing significantly this they are being allowed to charge more and that of course translates down to us as we go to the doctor it doesn't help that UHC is not going to have an agreement with UWM Medical Center either okay thank you Martha yes are there any more questions on the ARPA and the surplus okay are we going to talk about that in the future right so we're not making decisions yeah this is just that's just the gross number deciding distribution or appropriation so of course part of this proposed budget is all of our enterprise funds as well you'll be hearing much more from Tom during the retreat about the different enterprise budgets but we wanted to the interest of transparency show you what those proposed rate increases are as well you've seen many of these before in other presentations the drivers really here drivers here really are both those stat salaries and benefits costs that are allocated to the enterprise funds as well as the bonds for the second water tower and for the Bartlett Bay and airport parkway wastewater treatment plant improvements and the water increase that's just a usage based increase we've not we had the presentation proposing to change that to a per meter fixed etc that's not this right this is just assuming the usage based increase correct we are not assuming any change to the rate structure here the and even if we were the dollars would still be the same so just as a reminder in this overall budget presentation we are recommending you consider putting a bond vote before the voters for that second water tank at dorset street you heard about this last late last spring that's a total bond amount of 5.2 million which would result in an annual increase of about $19 of those previous rate increases you saw but that is a bond vote you will need to consider in the next six weeks is that a 20 year bond we are still working out the whether it's going to be 20 years or 30 years but right now we're just modeling 20 years okay and then I think it's always important to call out for you as we have presented this recommended budgets the emerging issues we see in FY 24 to 25 and beyond so just as a reminder we are starting to talk about creating a parking fund and a rental registry fund and new staffing structures we hope that those two funds are enterprise funds and are not part of the general fund budget but function financially independently in this budget there is no funding allocated for recreation center planning nor implementation of the building and thermal portion of the climate action plan or the separation of 575 577 Dorset streets that the school district has asked us to think about the climate person though presumably could work on the climate action right the climate person could yes okay we are obviously hopefully next agenda item very close to adopting a city plan which will direct our priorities into next fiscal year collective bargaining is always an emerging issue for us right now we are in active negotiations with our fire union their contract expires the end of this fiscal year we as I said earlier we are working with ASME to recognize the library employees and go through their first negotiation process and then our ASME and police agreements both expire at the end of FY 25 so that will certainly have an impact on FY 26 as I mentioned at the last meeting we have some very hard to fill employment categories right now primarily police officers and CDL drivers we have emerging and substance misuse needs of our neighbors and emerging staffing needs both at our Bartlett Bay waste or treatment plant where we only have one staff on at any given time and you heard earlier commentary about maintaining city center as it gets built out I also wanted to add on Friday we had an all staff meeting where we went through this budget presentation so the entire team would kind of know where we are and one of our team members suggested that I should include on this slide we are hopefully about to kick off a parks master plan and certainly that master plan may point to additional needs in the community that we have not currently identified so that's an emerging issue into the future and then your next steps this is what you that will happen next so next Friday the 15th we will have our budget retreat between the council leadership team you will hear from the department heads about their operations and their specific budget lines you will then have an opportunity on your December 18th and January 2nd meeting to have your continued discussion public hearing on January 16th steering committee on the 22nd and town meeting day on March 5th if if you adopt this budget as presented you will also need to approve resolutions for increasing planning and zoning fees that are associated with this revenue budget as well as water and wastewater allocation fees so the key questions for you are one what do you need clarifying information on and two what additional information analysis data can we put together for you to help your conversations over the next six weeks and obviously tonight's not the only opportunity you have to request that but if there's something on top of your mind we'd be happy to put it together for you so can we can I see for say the past I don't know four years the increase in our missile budget each year and then if you just put together a chart of the CPI for the year that would be helpful anything else I'm sorry a question also just on the actual all the pages and pages of budget I assume it's just a geography question but in a lot of the items in the 24 and 25 budget there's you know vision disability et cetera health plan that wasn't in the 23 budget is that just geography you moved it from Zimbabwe wine yes exactly so with last year's budget we used to have one budget and you broke it out that was all health care benefits and we broke it out by department to tell a truer story of how we were investing and at this point it doesn't mean it's your last time to ask for information okay thank you very much thank you we're just about on time too how nice Martin thank you all of the department heads for your work on yeah thank you this was this was excellent it's very it's put together well I think it gives us lots to um cogitate about okay number eight discuss the city plan 2024 and vote to warn of public hearing so Paul Conner hey folks Paul Conner director of planning and zoning um so you have in front of you a revised draft of the city plan that incorporates we hope um the discussions and decisions that you've made over the last couple of months I did want to orient you to a couple of things quickly so in your packet you'll see that there are a number of in the city plan text in red that represents the new text um sort of a cork of the way that we switched it over to the layout it does not show the strike throughs of what was removed but if you want any of that we do have it it's just not doesn't show in there so the new red text it doesn't show it was deleted but it was deleted um one little error that I just wanted to flag for you that happened in the translation from word to the layout you had given us the direction um on October 30th that the introductory couple of lines uh right at the beginning um talking about climate change should be removed because you found it redundant um that was removed from the word version and because it was a color we just missed it so that is intended to not be there those first four lines under introduction that's in sort of orange yeah yeah so sorry about that that was just that was a an error and then um in the mapping I just wanted to draw your attention to two little things that um you did not talk about that we modified um one was um there is a there is a planned park and open space along the road that was in the last city plan and is on your official map that somehow just disappeared from the data so we went back and we reinserted it to continue the past policy of the city and your official map and the second one is that um following your public hearing you wanted to retitle one of the maps from um transportation improvements to vehicular improvements uh we thought on it a little bit and and felt that maybe better description would be roadway improvements because the city does have a complete streets policy so if we build a new road it is not just for vehicles it's also going to have sidewalks and um and spaces for bicycles so a roadway is more reflection of of what that improvement would be not just vehicular so okay I do um I think Jessica um Jessica Luiso sent a note to uh Jesse and myself I don't think it went to the whole council but she just wanted to um say that she had looked at all our changes and felt that they were good ones and that were you know um reflective of conversations of the um planning commission they she said this is not a vote um but her sense is that she agreed with them and thought they were good improvements so for your edification you have the chair of the planning commission saying these are are acceptable and good that's good yeah yeah I thought it was great nice to have friendly amendments she couldn't be here because she had um work obligation but I did not think we needed anyone from the planning commission necessarily here so um I went through and read all the red letters and thought it was reflective as best as I could remember everything right um so what what's your pleasure I is there more discussion oh yes we have more discussion okay I'll be quick let me just do the two easy ones first and just just one substantive thing really discussed but the easy ones on page 36 uh just for uh 36 of the plan or 36 of the packet of the plan okay oh 606 page packet and we discussed at least one of these it took almost as much time whooping through it as it does to read the normal one I have to get to the right page though so page six of the 36 36 right of our packet page 36 of the plan of the plan of the plan yeah it's not the packet it's not the packet it'll say 36 on the bottom we're already into 400 yeah okay it's page 518 of the packet jesse could you give me the ability to present and I'll put it up on the screen for everybody 18 here we go okay so action 43 um I think we should just update that wording which action 43 to say something like create city ordinance that addresses tree protection and connection with development activity because we already have a municipal tree ordinance and this is supposed to be something a little different and I think we talked about that at the last meeting and then um action 54 says oh I'm sorry can you repeat that because tonight is important that you decide on exactly what you want to say sure what I wrote down was create city and lowercase city ordinance or whatever that addresses tree protection and connection with development activity so but how would how would that not be addressed in the LDRs itself so it would be part of the LDRs and that's what is being worked on already something the LDRs about protecting um habitat blocks not trees though trees part of they are if they're in habitat block if they're in habitat block then the thing is that we're working I mean the planning commission and the LDRs is working on this it's not a city tree ordinance because we already have it I'm just trying to clarify what's being worked on so what they're working on to amend the LDRs to provide for tree protection may I suggest if you choose to go with that language to maybe say um tree regulations that address so we're not mixing ordinance and regulations I agree that that makes sense too but of course council's choice to section 54 it says um consider noise pollution reduction including possible options like a noise ordinance but we already have a noise ordinance so I might rephrase that to say including updates to the city's noise ordinance which I really think we actually need to do and we'd hope we do at a future agenda this makes it read like we don't have one updates yeah including possible updates to our noise ordinance yes please are there any concerns by other councillors for these two word changes are you agreeable? okay then I have just one substantive discussion um going back to page 18 and I just want to I don't know if I can do this but I just I printed some things out which I'd like to refer to can I hand this out okay Josie I think page 18 needs some work I don't I think the data on this page in the first full two full paragraphs is incomplete and distorts the picture of the city so if you read the second paragraph it talks about we have 18,000 jobs but only 10,000 people living in the city and it kind of gives us picture of this mass influx of commuters into the city the actual data is that more commute out of the city than commute in the city this is from the 2020 census as computed by vermonthousingdata.org that's the first page of this little handout that I that I gave and that's kind of confirmed by another chart in housingdata.org which shows that actually the commutes in South Burlington are not really that long and actually shorter on average than commutes in the rest of the state so I and then I guess finally and I asked this question before this shows that there are 11,000 jobs in South Burlington and we continue to say 18,000 so I think the actual picture of the data is different than these first two first two full paragraphs would lead a reader to believe and I really think it needs to be changed because this is talking point about this mass influx of commuters into the city is a talking point for people to build housing everywhere and I think it's an invalid talking point I think the discussion needs to be more balanced and more accurate of the complete set of data that we have and then that will carry on to the second full paragraph and how we describe what problem exists or not I'm curious why the numbers are different because they both have the U.S. Census Bureau as their source yeah well the numbers in this were generated or produced by the CCRPC consultant is that right Paul at the beginning of the climate action plan they had done some research for us that I think was probably the foundation of this I'd have to go back and look exactly but that's what I remember for saying with U.S. similar questions Andrew beyond the question of statistics what's your point here what is what's the issue right so the issue Larry is that these these first two full paragraphs create this appearance that we need this whole tremendous load of new housing to support these 8,000 people that are commuting into the city that want to live here and I think that's a false and inaccurate and distorted picture of the community situation it's actually the case that on net people are commuting out of the city there's more people that commute out than commute in and when you read this you wouldn't know that part I like about the second paragraph you refer to is the collaborative effort in the county I agree with that I think that's a very good sentiment not to be lost in what you're concerned about yes thank you so what you're saying is that we shouldn't be building as much housing as we are I'm saying we should have an accurate plan with accurate data right but you're insiduating that we're overbuilding no what I'm saying Tim is that this creates the perception that we need to build build to support housing for these 8,000 commuters that are commuting into the city forget the 8,000 commuters do you think that we should be building more housing anyway we obviously need to build housing in the right spots of course we do but you know there's there's a spectrum of how much and if you read this you think oh boy we need to be building and building and building right and so we need to have accurate data so we can know how much we need to build looking at our rental vacancy rate being what 0.1% or around that I mean that to me is a better indicator of the fact that there isn't enough housing because there's no surplus in terms of what a normal vacancy rate would be so therefore rents are higher than that's definitely an important indicator and that's a good hard piece of data but is the assumption that the 7,000 people who work here but live somewhere else would like to live here is that accurate that's a good question I mean and if they if we need to build more housing for people who work here I guess we need to know if the people who work here actually want to live here or if they're happy to commute from Shelburne into South Burlington or Fairfax or St. Albans or Platsburg there are a lot of people who come over to the ferry it's much less expensive to live there except for the ferry so but that's just a you know when we use the numbers to understand or try to determine what the need is I don't know if you always build to the absolute maximum need potential need if in fact it isn't or we just have indicators from the business community we've already had complaints from the business community that they feel like they're going to have difficulty filling positions because they can't get housing for employees especially when you talk about beta and on logic and you would assume that if those two major employers are right in South Burlington then the people aren't going to want to commute from a long distance most of them are not going to want to commute from a long distance so I mean if you just want the numbers to be more accurate you know I've always heard that a healthy vacancy rate is 5% so that's a lot of housing that's well not around but apartments and housing that's not used and so to some degree we don't have that to play with but that means there's a lot of housing that's not being used in my opinion I think it works both ways if that's a safe standard in the industry the housing industry wanting 5% to have some flexibility around where people can move I'm all for accuracy too I think that this 11,470 number is much smaller than 18,000 and I think we should be accurate it looks like you I'm just really curious where the 18,000 comes from it's also completeness right because we talk about in this paragraph the number of people commuting in but there's also a commuting out and you can ask the same question that those people want to live here and commute out so again net there's more people commuting out than commuting in which gives a different right you know gives a different appearance to this problem so I think it's important to be complete so let people commuting through okay but that's not that's true but that doesn't impact the housing the impacts of the things so I don't want to wordsmith this but I do think that it's incomplete and distorted okay Jesse so if the council as a whole is interested in making changes to this tonight this is a very hard thing for staff to respond to on the fly when you are required to finalize a document to warn for a final public hearing next week or in a couple weeks so if this is something the full council would like us to edit tonight I recommend that we table this it's going to be a little hard because we need a lot of the next agenda item we table this we go on to Tom's last agenda item we take a recess and when they are prepared to come back with a proposal we reconvene and consider language because I think that I wish we had known this in advance so we could prepare something for you all the alternative is I guess to give us some time to look at it bring you back information at your next meeting and what a public hearing for the 16th but that would require you to that would eliminate your possibility of making further changes at the public hearing now let's table it and hopefully get the number I mean it's online too it's the census is I have all kinds of infograms about 11,600 jobs and what they're in and so I don't know are those 18,000 let's let them have time not on camera to put it to make a recommendation including the growth of beta that would be pretty amazing Bob Britt has turned his camera on Bob Britt do you have a comment I just do if you're going to not talk about the city plan for a while more two things that I thought at the last public meeting the council agreed to was and these this is probably trivial but there was going to be the maps were going to be added to the table of content and also on the last paragraph on page 46 I thought it was going to include that we were going the city was going to look at speeds south of I-89 as well as the wording there was wording seemed maybe to be added about facilities south but not speed you all had agreed to that in the last meeting just yeah no I definitely remember the table of contents inclusion of the maps I think that's pretty simple to do we'll just call that an oversight okay and then the speeds on Heinsberg Road south let me get to that that's on page 48 you say 46 at the last paragraph well to get there well it says this area should be along Tilly Drive this area should be slower in speed yeah but it says I think it says north doesn't it that just says Heinsberg Road north of 89 travels through established neighborhoods okay yeah if the established neighborhoods are now starting at low crest drives south of Vansickland so seems like it the wording needs to be changed it's probably the whole Heinsberg Road corridor that speed needs to be again looked at do you see what he's saying it does mention the northern most sections as well as just north of I-89 I mean as an example we should have them look at our city plan ought to include just reevaluating the speed on Heinsberg Road that would be fine to leave it as general as possible I mean we did and as an example we right now the bike and ped committee is not allowed to build a crosswalk at Du Bois and oh and the butler drive because the speed is too fast there there's a good reason to tell the state we want to drop together okay we've had conversations with VTrans and they're aware of the catch 22 where we can't build a crosswalk and they won't lower the speed limit that would enable a crosswalk right we'll have to build one of those bridges that goes over the road but we can certainly make an adjustment if you'd like to reference speeds at both along the entirety of Heinsberg Road while we're looking at these numbers we can give you an exact set of words we're well aware of VTrans in transience thank you Paul pretty good that's poetic there going back to thank you Bob Larry you have a page well going back to Andrew's page which was which page was that Andrew 46 the last discussion 18 of the okay but we're going to table that for to come back okay Jerry Silverstein would like to make a comment so I think I have three can you hear me now just because you were talking about Du Bois I live under Du Bois I would not be in support of a stop walk there for a number of reasons I cross it all the time going over to Butler Farms I see lots of other people doing the same thing maybe I have to wait a minute or two if the cars are passing by if you put a stop walk there what you're doing is let's say 45 miles an hour to zero and then start up again so if you're really concerned about energy conservation and not consuming fossil fuels having start and go traffic which is what you're going to do doesn't seem to me to be a good idea I've never seen a person at that crosswalk who is indignant about the fact that they have to wait for cars to slow down to let them pass it's not a big deal point number two do I understand correctly if I looked at the numbers for the sewer and water increase if someone's there who can answer I did a rough calculation would you say an average increase for the average user is about 8% if you put all those three parameters together would that be correct I just added up the numbers on page 13 there's the annual fee for the average homeowner I did a quick calculation I came up with about 8% does that sound reasonable well sewer is 8.7% water is 9.5 and storm water is 3.1 so I don't know what the average I just added column 2 FY24 annual fee for the average homeowner added that up and then I added the annual increase and I divided the total average spending versus the increase and I came up with about 8% does that sound reasonable so if you look across that table you have the increases from 24 to 25 across each enterprise fund and then what the annual increase that would result in for the average homeowner on the last column so there's 3.1%, 8.75%, 9.5% across the each individual fund the average homeowner right but they're weighted differently so really what you have to do is you have to add up the dollar expenditures for each of the areas and the increase for each of the areas and then divide the total dollar increase over the total dollars being spent and I came up with about 8% the only reason I want to know is because for that it's 8% the property taxes currently are estimated at 18.5% the property tax bill just trying to get an idea of what we're going to experience in an era when everybody in Washington and everybody on Wall Street is telling us that we've beaten inflation it's no longer a big issue it's not going to be a problem anymore I don't know 18%, 8% I don't know seems like big numbers to me okay last point which I wanted to raise before you went to the budget and that is the discussion of whether to install heat pumps versus using natural gas and also fuel for combustion related heat systems I just want to remind everybody because it does seem to be something that either people are not aware of or they're just not interested in the primary fuel source for ISO New England which is the electric supply system which supplies our electricity the primary fuel source is natural gas and I just looked at ISO New England 54% of the electricity which is maintaining the grid in New England is from natural gas and although Green Mountain Power has on its website the fact that 80% of its purchases are involving renewable energy and 100% is carbon free although that is technically correct that doesn't mean that me as a Green Mountain Power customer am using 80% carbon free electricity and 100% sorry, 80% renewable and 100% carbon free what GMP purchases is not the same thing as what is the electricity delivered to my home the electricity delivered to my home even though I pay GMP is based upon the fuel mix the source mix that ISO New England uses the electric grid in Vermont would collapse the electric grid in Vermont would collapse where it not hooked up to the New England grid it's all one grid it's a giant balloon of electrons that's not Jerry Silverstein that's me talking to people who sit on national committees who are charged with maintaining electric grids in this country so what you have to understand is when you convert a combustion system to one using a heat pump you want to remember that at least 40 to 50% of the electricity which is going to run that heat pump is derived from fossil fuels people seem to either ignore that or not care about it and I think I see one of your members smiling the one who thinks that when humans release carbon dioxide as a result of respiration it's net zero if you look at the statements I've ever heard somebody ever mention you need to remember that fossil fuels the greatest concern that ISO New England has right now is making sure there's enough natural gas to keep the electric grid maintained during the winter season it's not are there enough industrial wind turbines it's not are there enough solar farms they're major concern if you read the reports and I doubt you've read their reports their major concern is making sure they have a natural so when you talk about going from natural gas to heat pumps please keep in mind that the electric grid which serves Vermont would not exist without the fossil fuels which you seem to dislike so intensely thank you I think I would tend to agree with your observation on Heinsberg Road I drive that every day many times and I see people waiting and they do and I see them getting across running are they running no there's kids on bikes there's people walking dogs they just walk across so there are real breaks in traffic and I've you know walked there as well so it may not be the prime spot for crossing I mean I think the speed limit is too high it's 50 right near my house I would have wanted the VTrans to make most of it 35 which you know you get hit by a car at 35 it probably hurts as much as if it's 45 but we can't seem to convince them otherwise to change it so I'm not sure if that's the ultimate place for a crossing but that you know driving by okay so we're going to table the city plan you're going to go work on the numbers or try to find a way to make it as accurate as possible and we'll move on to number nine discussing the tax increment financing the winter bond pool application and improving the preparation of the materials Ilana Blanchard can you go to Tom's oh I'm sorry excuse me we'll skip to 10 consider discontinuing Picard Circle and set a site inspection date for January 16th 2024 at 3 p.m. and a public hearing date for January 16th 2024 at 8 p.m. this is a fud one thank you this is a field trip for us guys you have to go in January we do cocoa and marshmallows Tom DiPetro director of public works I'll give you a brief overview here so back in 2019 the department of public works and the storm water utility did a project on Picard Circle at that point there were no homes along that small dead-end road so the road was removed very large infiltration system was put underground grasped over a great project in the Centennial Brook watershed V-Trans reached out to us a few years later and said hey did you ever follow the discontinuance process for the road and so we have missed that step as we remove the road so we're here tonight to fix that and they would like us to do that so they can accurately update some statewide maps so what I have done here is I've worked with the city attorney to go through state statute and lay out kind of two meetings here so this requires an onsite inspection followed by a public hearing so I'm not sure if folks have done this before but the inspection as you go out you have an opportunity to look at the road or in this case where the road was we don't do a lot of back and forth discussion at the inspection we just whoever would like to take a look at it and then we have the public hearing at a later date or in this case later in the evening here regularly scheduled meeting is a quorum required yes so at least three of us have to do the inspection so we propose three o'clock but this is really for oh sweetie I'm sorry this is really for you all to consider January 16th January 16th just keep in mind that we have a public hearing that night on the budget I have one and on the bond vote I will be available so this is uh oh January 16th I'll go to January now okay so January how long will it take? January 16th is a Tuesday yeah are we meeting on that Tuesday? yes because the 15th oh that's Martin look at it I'm fine I'm available I'm available five minutes less than half an hour but if you're serving cocoa it might be a little longer than that so who who can do three o'clock? oh look at that good job guys what waters enter the infiltration system? uh yeah airport parkway and kind of some surrounding areas some of the side roads residential roads in that location at the time it was the largest infiltration project that company had done in Vermont these were the parabolic chambers they get buried you may be familiar with this kind of infiltration system did they use the same method here? uh yeah actually similar but this was earlier you said much larger too none of the water from the airport property goes in there does it? it's a surface perhaps some grass area that's at three at three we will meet Tom there we'll all look at what used to be a road and say it isn't a road anymore right? correct but the land still belongs to the city that circle still belongs to the city yeah there's kind of a lollipop shaped road right away that we still own and the airport owns all the homes around it uh they are the only a butter so once the times are set I will uh reach out and make sure that uh the airport knows first statute so will this be a public meeting? will it be warned? yeah if anybody wants to drive by and see what we're doing it actually requires a 30 day uh notice in the newspaper so it will also be first thing tomorrow wait the statutes right in yeah it's the state that wants us to do this okay and then on this same evening we have city council so do you need a motion for this or no we just agree to it yes we just agree to it or we need a motion you need a motion to warn so I will move that we warn a public hearing for January 16th 2024 at 3pm an inspection wait the public hearing is at evening January 16th yes the public hearing is in the evening may I help? yes I would encourage you to make a motion to set a public inspection time of Tuesday January 16th 2024 at 3pm and a public hearing time of Tuesday January 16th 2024 at 8pm so we're going to have two meetings that week no one a site inspection at 3pm the public hearing will be at our it's our regular city council meeting Monday is the holiday second okay so I have a motion do I have a second? second is there any further discussion or clarification needed I'm sure you haven't played hot chopper alright all in favor? aye motion carries so let's see is there any other business that anyone has yes I would just like to say that the Dorset Kennedy signals change are working extremely well I pull up to the intersection and if a lane empties it changes to the next lane you know I mean it goes it's around Robin right whereas before you would sit and wait and wait and wait and wait for the timer to time out even if there's no traffic no cars sitting there now you get there especially late at night I got there after the last meeting and I was the only car going south and a car had come in from the interstate and it exited and then I was the next one to get a light so it's detecting it's got like a vision and it's detecting whether I thought that was the next phase I'm going to go home that way I never go home that way I didn't realize who would do that that was the next phase LiDAR, Magneto, Infra-Ret laser beams there's two types of detection now stop bar detection so we can see if a car is at the stop bar and then within that same piece of equipment it sees cars coming at a distance so it knows at this point that if a car is coming and there's nobody queued up it can change the light so that car can continue so there's carbon savings here too and that is going to happen at each individual intersection between Williston and Kennedy and then as we get the radio antennas up they will communicate between intersections so that will improve the flow generally of traffic you're blowing my mind that's amazing so I'm sorry I had heard I recall discussion and maybe I misheard some months ago where there were like two phases this one phase was some smart improvements but not quite that is there yet another phase that makes it even smarter that we were able to work when you start using it that makes you smarter that's correct I think that was a little while ago but we were able to move that second phase we were referring to it sooner at a fairly lesser cost than we thought with the new software so there's different levels of software that was smart so I have a dorset street question too with all of the new infrastructure so as I was driving here from the high school tonight the red light was at Garden Street and dorset so the healthy living Trader Joe's intersection and then the left turn lane is the only one that had the green light and it was only on the northbound traffic so is there a reason why we don't when there's nobody turning left in the southbound traffic is there a reason why we wait instead of having all of the northbound traffic go because there's nobody turning left going so that is on the old programming they haven't replaced any of the they've only done the major intersections today fully anyway Williston dorset, Kennedy and dorset so everything in between is now what's going to happen next they did the major intersections first because all the work involved with the new mast poles and the mast arms I'll mention I don't have an exact schedule for when they're going to be where except for the fact that they're going to be at the middle high school intersection for the holiday and they're supposed to be getting a schedule soon so I'll know exactly when they're going to be at that intersection for example so when you design the new um you know lights thing on Heinzburg road and market street will that have the same capability because there's certainly times you know when school gets out or when you all go home it's much more traffic heavy than the middle of the day so yes we are trying to implement this everywhere we put in a new signal or we upgrade an existing signal so for example someday if we move down Williston road and replace those older signals we'd like to put this same kind of technology in that's great that's why they cost $350,000 holy mo- that's just the slide that was closer to six perhaps we had a kickoff meeting for that I'm happy to say so we'll be working on that with the engineer refining costs for that going forward here that's a lot for one pole or two poles is it true you can change it with your phone not that I'm aware of no do you have to go to the signal box to make changes or can you not him you can't but does an authorized person are they able to make changes to the signals on the phone or something like that we can log into it from a computer in the future once all the new software is implemented we'll get a lot more data and statistics which is great that kind of stuff right now yes we do have to go and open the box our staff does does Google want that data they haven't asked interesting Tom is very good at what he does okay we just have a brief interlude 5 minutes 10 minutes until they come back yeah okay so are we going to move on to Alana we'll wait for Tim okay well I got to get to Alana's stuff okay so Alana's is number 9 oh yeah number 9 oh good I think we had a piece of paper on it yeah we have a piece of paper too yeah a chart yeah we were left a chart because man I got to that Alana and went whoa I can't make this big enough on my screen I don't need 90 inch TV okay is that what this is here 90 inch there no I think that's small earth than a 90 inch okay so I would like to call back to order the south brollington city council meeting of December 4 and we are at item number 9 the tax increment financing winter bond pool and Alana Blanchard is going to share her information with us okay thank you I'm here tonight because the tiff district is in the last year before which we need to incur all of the debt in order to complete the public infrastructure projects that have been planned for the south brollington city center tiff district the voters have approved the amount of debt that the city is able to issue or borrow and the Vermont bond bank has issued a call for applications and these will be due in December and so at this time we'd like to talk to you about the tiff district and request permission to submit an application for the remaining amount of debt 18 million six hundred and six thousand five hundred thirty dollars which excludes the portion that has been set aside to fund related cost administrative cost for the tiff district and to submit an application and just to remind you we will also be bringing additional documents should the application which we would expect to be accepted by the bond bank to actually issue the debt and in order to issue this debt we would need to do so before March 31st 2024 the following year or the year that is coming right up so attached to this you'll see the tiff district expenditure revenue summary actual and forecast and this takes the very big spreadsheet that we generally have given you in preparation for bond boats and boils it down and Jesse asked us to put together a forecast of not the high and the low but the known and then also what would be needed in order to service all of the debt and break even within the tiff district so it's sort of like the known which is the low and then what we would need to have develop within the tiff district in order not to place an additional burden on the taxpayers so and so I just like to turn your attention to the sheet which is sort of towards the end of the memo and just sort of run you through some of the parts of it so the known is based on the Snyder development as well as additional lands of south Burlington city center LLC which have been sort of pre developed meaning they have certain permits already in place they don't have the city zoning permits but they are more of a known quantity and there has been investment in them being redeveloped and so that is the first line and that's the same model that you have seen on other documents those assumptions the values are not necessarily based on the assessed values some of them are based on future values we do expect there to be some at least one reassessment or an appraisal citywide appraisal between now in the next 14 years the lower the lower chart is exactly the same except for it includes enough additional development to break even in the TIP district and that is so it's called so it's it's the sorry so it's the top line which is the increment tax and the increment tax is based on the known grand list and plus that additional development would need to occur so to build this we took a conservative number so we took an existing excess property and we said okay if this just happened every year until the end of the 14 years and it's actually 13 years because your grand list is based on the prior year how much development would need to occur the least value per square foot so it's like the least amount of development it's the most amount of development because it yields the least revenue something like office or retail would yield more revenue however that is less likely to occur because of the current market conditions and many changes within both the commercial and retail market that we're seeing currently doesn't mean it's not occurring we're getting 52,000 square feet of new retail that's being developed right down the street today so that could happen but we wanted to build this out more conservatively so what this shows is a 61 unit building so the 61 unit building that it's based off of is Union Place which is at the corner of Garden and Market Street so if we took that value from the last grand list and used that value going forward between 20 so going on the grand list in 2027 it takes about 3 to 4 years to get a project you know pre-developed and then through zoning and then developed and then it has to show up on the grand list with the right time that it shows up in April 1 so we have it showing up the actual increment would be collected in FY28 and then through FY37 and so what that does is that zeroes out the zeroes out the TIF district fund which is the fund the increment fund which is the fund that we use to pay the debt out of but also that we collect the increment into and I can go into the other lines we've talked about the cash cushion before which is the reserve fund and so this the top version shows where we would end up in the reserve fund which is essentially says that by FY30 we would need to have started to build additional revenues into the fund in order to reduce the sort of what happens at the end of the TIF district if we feel that there's a possibility that we would not have enough funds at the end I don't think that's an amount that so currently it's showing that four million would have to be would be the liability that the city would then have to backfill at that point at the end of the TIF district in FY38 so on the end that's contrasted with if we continue to work with landowners and developers and have additional development within the TIF district having a surplus of 2.3 million which is where we're just using the cash cushion in order to fund to fund the city share of costs so very different scenarios for the needed 61 additional units for quite a few years ten years nine years ten years does that include the mall? no so this is only this is development that needs to occur within the TIF district so is there actually yeah so I'm trying to think so we're exactly yeah that's this is 61 per year 61 additional per year yes to become flat this is a conservative estimate but yes so this is yes so is there actually enough land? yes so this is based so if you look if we look at Allard Square which is next to us that's built on less than an acre and that's 34 units our building is 50,000 square feet and it's built on 0.6 acres so and so these are each of those years I took our high forecast which also had condominiums and it had some retail because some of the locations are on great retail corners so one would think that would happen but just stripped all of that out and said if we only have this on this land what would it look like? so it's not just it's not just Greenfield it also includes redevelopment but it doesn't include the Chinese place of question street so it goes all the way down San Remo oh okay so that's yeah yeah can that how many stories can San Remo Drive go up? because it's T4 but it's T4 limited meaning that it can only go up to four stories not five like in other parts but it can go up four stories and I'm not sure and then there's a setback from the neighborhoods and I'm not sure if that's all of San Remo Drive or just the block that's between San Remo and the neighborhood so just to we'll need 900 new units during the life of the bond in order to be able to fully service it is that what you're saying? I'm saying we would need a value that's equal to 900 units today and was that what we anticipated when we issued the bond or is that new? we haven't issued the bond yet no we just didn't have a unit figure okay but that's not new I mean this is what we thought we would need yes we wanted to present it this way to you is that the TIF is very much a living breathing thing that we are invested that the us's of 10 years ago have planned and the us's of 10 years from now will continue to monitor so we wanted to give it to you in a way that was very big but hopefully very clear and accessible so you knew exactly where we stood every year so every year during budget time we will re-up this grid for you so you know the increment growth we've had and what we still need but we also wanted quite frankly to share the messaging that while there is a lot going on in city center and it is really great and exciting and aligned to the community's vision it is not nearly enough to successfully wrap up the TIF project and so again if only the what we is if only the only thing that gets built is within the pipeline now the city is going to be on the hook like 6 million bucks at the end of the day okay and the top graph both of these tables are assuming that the TIF bond is for everything we've done bond is so far plus the bridge plus everything that they voted on in the last one sorry which line so both boxes reflect the total TIF debt we intend to incur including with this winter bond which is the votes that were taken last time and then the second one down reflects so everything related to the reserve includes the city share of this building this building now you were talking last time when we were talking about the east-west crossing that you were going to be looking at other revenue sources that is not included those other revenue sources are not included in this and we firmly believe that the bridge is a regional project and that the amount that we have committed to it is the funds that we have allocated to it and that we should be looking for other partners for the remainder whether that's federal or state so the top table some is a worrisome model for years 30 yard out in terms of expense to the city because there's not more incremental TIF it's assuming just what we know right now we don't think the top is what's going to happen we think the bottom is what's going to happen but we want it to be very clear of if there's no more development in the TIF district the top is everything that's permitted there's plan to be permitted within a short amount of time it does include some some parts of this Night of Raven developing incrementally so there's a parcel across the Potash Brook it's pretty small but we don't see it developing we haven't seen any plans or heard any noises about it developing in the next four or five years but it could develop in the next four or five years north side of Market Street near Heinsberg Road that's not included that's not in the top lane but that's potentially developing but the TIF generated revenue stops I mean the you know the extra money I thought it was just 10 years I thought no it was 20 we collect from 2017 until 2037 oh okay we have 10 years to incur debt and 20 years to collect alright and then at that point then the taxes most go to the state so we're going to sell this Ed fund they'll get a kick a big boost from our development yes what are some of the costs that the city incurs using in the TIF? Is that the roadways and infrastructure like that? Yes so this building is partially funded with tax increment financing city center park Market Street is also partially funded with tax increment financing and then upcoming is the boardwalk that connects to city center park street parts of garden street and the bridge and then the reconstruction of the Wilson Road streetscape intersections and Wilson Road streetscape so if development starts occurring along San Remo Drive there might be less city cost involved there since the roadway already exists I'm thinking of the parcel that was the former I don't know the name of the company but the big parcel in the middle that's not being used anymore the Cairns the oil company so the TIF district extends down remote yeah so there's this 61 additional units is not necessarily in the city center it's in the TIF district yes the potential for housing development in that further so the potential looks more realistic versus just market street and garden street you need 10 story buildings you know garden street and market street are really the center of the properties but there are it changes every year like the number I know we started with 53 different properties and I'm not sure what number we're at this year although I have a nice chart of it which will be presented to you when we present the annual report for how many separate parcels there are but just to add one statement it doesn't have to be housing units that's just what Alana has modeled as a financial model to give us some sense of scale it could be commercial space it could be any non tax exempt space that would add increment but the market really isn't calling for any retail it's not but by 37 it will for several of the parcels if they're on Dorset street for example that's really great exposure so there could be retail on them I think you mentioned earlier though that the development from beginning to end is a three year period minimally so that fits into the schedule somehow you're not going to have that fiscal year 34 you're not going to realize a big starting off something later in this schedule isn't going to help us in this scenario the more front loaded the development is the more impact that it has so what are we doing to you know I'm glad there was more to that ensure that we're going to satisfy the 900 units or the same amount of commercial or like what are we doing as a city to encourage development that meets these targets yeah so that's you know as we obviously the first big thing is to build the infrastructure that supports this type of development but as we have now had the first code for a fair amount of time and we've heard from many people about how it functions we can start to look at tweaks for example that's one thing and I think that was discussed I believe this summer so that's one thing that we can do we've also been meeting with developers and property owners individually I would say more on a case by case basis so we haven't been doing that universally yet and we will certainly be moving towards that as we move off actually developing infrastructure so those yes go ahead I don't think that's fair to you a lot Alana and I not necessarily once a week but once a month twice a month are meeting with developers looking to come and do things in city center so it is a case by case basis but you are certainly actively working on that now yeah and also just getting the word out that we have a form based code that we have all this infrastructure coming and inviting people here so that they can see someone else is investing here look at what they are doing I think if people haven't been driving on market street they don't realize what's happening here yeah so Alana Tim is asking the Tiff district line goes all the way to the back of the village green drive correct includes two units two of the houses and it goes so the district includes the anchorage in to the north on Dorset street down to adjacent to PC construction so just north of the middle school on Dorset street and then on Mary street it includes the parcel that is on the right so not the bank but what's now Berkshire Hathaway just touching Williston road and then all of the properties south of that on Williston road and then east over on Heinsberg road including the village green apartments or village green drive so there's definitely some brown fields that's not a problem there's I believe most of the brown fields have been addressed within the district but then we've been talking with CCRPC about their brownfield program and so they do have a pretty good brownfield program okay are there do you have other comments or are there other questions I would just say that we haven't settled on the actual terms for instruction for the debt that we would apply for but that would be part of the documents that would be brought to you later okay so just once again to wrap up we were we're trying to present final model that clearly presents to you what the implications are of knowns and unknowns and what we as a community need to be planning for this is something that we at Martha and Alana and I intend to talk to you about at every annual budget process moving forward is to update these projections on where we actually are with increment growth so year to year that will be part of your annual financial planning and certainly hopefully as we get towards the end of the TIF district we'll be able to see what those balances are that will be at the end of the general fund okay one last question why does rental housing yield the least value that it's how it's assessed it's assessed on an income it's often assessed it's either it's so it's assessed off charts but then it can also be assessed off income it's not like a residential you know straight forward assessment based on the value so it's not necessarily based on sales value in the same way and I think also there's less it can be slower the tables can be slower to change because there's less sales data so say hypothetically we figure out as a state how to have condos be more and a more attractive possible financial thing multi-unit building of 25 condos would be valley potentially valued very differently 25 rental apartments I get it now well we need to sell some more condos where's the condo guy yeah okay thank you very much no there's no vote needed is there it would so it would be great just to have a vote to to approve the application for the funding I don't think we can ask them to approve the application for the funding now because that will be additional documents we'll bring back to them correct but we can ask we could ask you to approve us to apply to submit the the winter bond pool so I move that we approve your applying for the development of a bond winter bond program so I check it okay any further discussion all in favor signify by saying aye thank you winter bond pool sounds you know he has icebergs floating around in it right thank you I hope not alright so okay so we're going to go back to item 8 and specifically I don't know what page it is 18 18 Paul's ready to get Councillor Barrett if you really like the sound of winter bond vote you're going to love census data on transportation and jobs oh yeah we know how to have a good time there's a Venn diagram between those two alright I'm ready when you're ready okay I just have to find the page but go ahead because I'll find it alright so I believe page 18 is where you were so when last we left off there was a question about a statement on page 18 of the conference and plan city plan describing the city having nearly 18,000 jobs and that number significantly exceed in the approximately 10,000 workers living in south Burlington Councillor Charleneck brought some information from the American community survey that showed something closer to 11,000 jobs in the city so both are correct so that clears it all up very very different data sources both census so if I can do a quick screen share here and I promise I won't spend too much time actually have a proposed way to address this for you but I think it is useful to see it so bring up on the screen here just really quickly this is the American community survey and you will see right there sort of in the middle workers aged 16 and over 11,400 that's approximately what Councillor Charleneck showed and then if I switch screens hopefully it does this this is the census on the map and it showed this is sort of number of workers coming into south Burlington who live elsewhere 15,500 number of people who live and work in south Burlington 2300 and number of people who live in south Burlington and work elsewhere 7,700 so basically the American community survey that was the last number is the number on the it's a five-year average of the people who get the survey question come to their home and they say in this given week, the assigned week that they're given, where did they work and then the so that's basically the source of it and then they average it over five years whereas for the on the map data they pull the census pulls unemployment characteristics it pulls office of personnel management employment and wages data all these things here so it comes at it from the complete opposite end one being sort of the output and one being the user the actual employees saying what they do so thankfully to our friends in north Carolina at their department of commerce they say how do these two things get line up with one another and how do you look at this so as I said coverage of people those who work during the reference week versus jobs covered by state unemployment insurance job definitions etc etc and then they say which one should you use and when so they talk about they say it depends super fun right so for the American community survey transportation needs when you're comparing it to other demographics the American community survey long-term historical patterns and then for the loads which is the on the map it talks about for labor market identification and most importantly I think for analysis within a county to understand how people are working or moving within an area so that is a ton of information with your ok I'll show you a proposal for how to yeah so it is but I think the source of the one that you brought here is the American community survey which is that about 11,000 so if I bring this back here sorry I was sort of rushing through this but if I bring this one back here at 11,000 there that I showed so if you go down a little bit further it'll say of that so this is workers worked in place of residents 38% worked outside a place of residents in this case means city 61% so if you look that's more or less your 7100 and your 4400 so that data does line up it's just very different data sources that bring the tell the story and there's not one that's more right or more wrong it's just I know it's wildly different but that's where it is so here are a quick shot at a recommendation for you as to how to maybe address this give me one second here so the red text is the change here just let me zoom in just a little bit there okay so for the purposes of page 18 which is really a section about housing to not use the numbers at all net import of jobs in a daily basis is part of a closely economic system which is basically what it says below with residents being working interchangeably because the main point here is range of housing needs options in our community and acknowledge the need to address the issue regionally and then further down in the section the introduction for transportation there's a section here that talks about we recognize the south is a regional node for road rail and air transportation and then I pulled in the data that talks about the number in and out for the purposes of understanding how far people are going so in 2021 15,000 people came in each day 2311 worked 7700 worked a demonstration of how interconnected our communities are further over 53% this is more of the data we're commuting less than 10 miles and that basically lines up with exactly what was presented at the start of the time and action plan to talk about what is our work so it brings back the data it is the on the map one but it's in the transportation section rather than in the housing so that would be my very quick recommendation I think that in the subject of employment that having these other data sources is probably better than a one time snapshot you know I remember I filled out this serving myself a month ago and it was during a it was in April and they say how do you how did you commute to work this week and I was well it was snowing all week and so I had to say I drove my car every day or no it didn't even say on the majority of the last week how did you commute so three of those days if I drove by car I did which is not a reflection of 12 months but it was the question that was asked I think that the data sources here that pull from the outputs of the unemployment data and all that is probably stronger because it is looking at all of these other sources for the purposes of where people coming and going on an average daily basis so that's my recommendation I also have a recommendation for Bob Brits request about Heinsberg Road not to change the topic too much but here just moving the text around a little bit sorry it's jumping around there so talking about Heinsberg Road generally this area should be slower in speed with bike pad connections throughout I guess I should say this corridor is the word I meant to say yeah corridor sounds good should be slower in speed with better bike pad infrastructure throughout including over 89 traffic calming measures which is new words that is maybe some of what we've heard from V-Trans about how to fix this catch 22 and more focus on use of serving neighborhoods use as neighborhoods lining the road so that speaks to the whole length of the road so I'll go back to the first one because I know that's more of where your discussion was so does that meet everybody's needs for accuracy and clarity thank you I mean that's quite quite service happy to help the North Carolina page there thank you to them too for helping digest that quickly do what? what did you say? pause while I took a jump oh well there you go there you have it well don't you be thinking about skipping somewhere to help together so I can say not on the list a lot is here through 37 right so she's got a long-term contract was it your turkey that got stolen on pine street off the porch do you read that front porch for them item like two nights before Thanksgiving the family had their 25 pound turkey in a cooler on their porch and it got stolen but then the person discarded the turkey to somebody else's yard and it was found but it was returned to the family they're like we think we could cook it we think it's okay because it was did you hear that story? still covered that was not me though I will say that last winter I found myself in the same problem which was that I had cooked a large chicken and then I didn't know what to do with it because it didn't fit in the fridge I didn't want it stolen off my front porch but I was going cross country skiing so I put it in a cooler with ice in it and took it cross country skiing with me so I have faced the problem I just had a different solution than the front porch did you tell it behind you while you were skiing or left in the car okay he has a big backpack that's sicking yeah like a fanny pack okay so let's anyway move this along so we what do we need to do I think we're just a motion to if you were ready to a motion for a public hearing at 7 p.m. with the changes you made tonight the correction about those first four lines at the beginning that were not intended to be there redundant on the the addition of the and the table contents and the addition of the table contents the mapping and the two actions that councillor charlenick all right so I'll make that motion that we warn a public hearing for january 2nd at 7 p.m. to discuss the city plan second any further discussion I hope not okay all in favor aye okay that's unanimous thank you very much thank you for doing that so now I would like to consider entering into executive session for the purpose of discussing the negotiation or securing a real estate purchase or lease options and specifically the long property oh did you remove the first paragraph in red from page 2 yeah yes I said that in my description of the motion but it's in it's in our copy here right so it was removed in the word version and then when it got translated to the design it just got missed so that was unintentional and it will be removed okay so we have do you have the motions for the executive session so I would like to move hold on I would like to move that the council enter into executive session for the purpose of discussing the negotiation or securing a real estate purchase or lease options relating to the long property inviting in Jesse Baker, Steve Block, Paul Conner and Colin McNeil into the executive session second any discussion all in favor aye that's it right we won't be so I guess we can't really adjourn but we won't be coming back