 Good morning, and welcome to the third meeting of the Social Justice and Social Security Committee. Our committee convener, Neil Graf, is appointed as Minister for Culture, Europe and International Development on Tuesday and has therefore resigned from his convenership of this committee. We wish Neil all the best in his new post and thank him for all the work that he's done for the committee. As deputy convener, I welcome Elina Witton, MSP, to the committee. Elina will replace Neil as a committee member. Apologies have also been received by Merodic MSP and we welcome Evelyn Tweed MSP back to the committee as her substitute. Before we turn to the appointment of our new convener, I invite Elina Witton to declare any relevant interests. Thank you, and good morning to colleagues and committee and witnesses. I'm just so that everybody knows that I need to declare that I'm still a councillor in East Ayrshire Council. We now move to the appointment of our new convener. On 15 June 2021, the Parliament agreed by motion that members of the Scottish National Party are eligible to be chosen as convener of the committee. I nominate Elina Witton to be our convener. Are we agreed? Yes, perfect. Congratulations, Elina. I will now pass over to you to chair the remainder of this morning's meeting. Thank you very much for that, Natalie. I am looking forward very much to working with the committee. This morning, we are going to be considering three items of subordinate legislation as outlined on the committee's agenda. The minister will begin by making a joint opening statement on the adult disability payment regulations and the related information sharing amended regulations before we consider each motion in turn. We will then consider the remaining negative SSI on today's agenda. The committee has undertaken some work in advance of the regulations that are being laid. The committee took evidence from the Scottish Fiscal Commission on 7 October and heard from some stakeholders at our meeting on 16 December. The committee also wrote to the minister following these sessions to seek further information in advance of today's discussion. The committee wrote to the cabinet secretary after our session on the budget on 13 January. This letter also included some questions on ADP. We look forward to our discussion this morning on the very important regulations. I welcome to the meeting Ben Macpherson MSP, Minister for Social Security and Local Government. The minister is joined by Scottish Government officials. Today, we have Kayleigh Blair and Camillo Aaron Dondo, both solicitors for the Scottish Government. We have David Hilbert, who is team leader on case transfer policy and Nathan Gale, team leader of disability benefits policy. From Social Security Scotland, we have Janet Richardson, deputy director of client services delivery. Just now, I would like to invite the minister to make an opening statement. Over to you, minister. Good morning, convener and members, and welcome to the committee and congratulations on your new role. Thank you all for inviting me to give evidence today on these important regulations, which, if passed, will introduce adult disability payment in Scotland. Adult disability payment will be the 12th benefit to be administered by Social Security Scotland, and it is the biggest and most complex undertaking for the organisation to date. I strongly believe that those regulations deliver on the principles of the Social Security Scotland Act 2018 and the Scottish Social Security Charter. That is, in large part, due to the extensive input of a range of organisations and individual disabled people across the country. I would like to take this opportunity to thank all those whose contributions have helped to shape adult disability payment. I am immensely grateful to the members of the Scottish Commission on Social Security Scotland, who have given their time generously and engaged openly with me and the officials. Scotland has made a number of insightful recommendations on the regulations, almost all of which I have accepted. Convener, those regulations will enable us, the Scottish Government and Social Security Scotland, to commence the delivery of adult disability payment for new applicants from 21 March, initially in Perthshire and Cairnross, Dundee and the Western Islands. We will then introduce adult disability payment across two further pilot phases before rolling it out nationally on 29 August. Critically, the passage of those regulations will enable us to take a very different approach to delivering disability assistance, developed around our principles, dignity, fairness and respect. We will put an end to the stress and anxiety of private sector assessments. There will be no undignified physical and mental examinations. We will end the stressful cycle of unnecessary reassessments and the adversarial approach of the DWP. In contrast, we are introducing a system that is rooted in trust and supported by the input of suitably qualified in-house health and social care practitioners. We are funding an independent advocacy service that will support people to access social security throughout their journey. Only one piece of information from a formal source will be sought to support the general care and mobility needs in a person's application. The onus of collecting that information will be on social security Scotland. Equal weight will be given to all sources of information, including from people who know the person applying best, their friends, family and informal support network. Applications from people with a terminal illness will be fast tracked so that they can access the support that they need and are entitled to as quickly as possible. Overall, the experience of applying for and receiving adult disability payment will be fundamentally different than the current DWP. I must also state that, if regulations are not passed, people will not be able to benefit from the significant improvements that they intend to make. People will be left on-pit for longer, potentially subject to the indignity and anxiety of private sector assessments. It is crucial, as a Parliament, that we pass those regulations. We intend to begin the case transfer of PIP awards to adult disability payment when it launches nationally in August. The case transfer of approximately 300,000 disability benefit awards from the Department of Work and Pensions to Social Security Scotland is an unprecedented exercise in both its scale and complexity, and we have therefore consistently prioritised the safe and secure delivery of adult disability payment. The approach has been supported by SCOFS, the Disability and Carers Benefits Expert Advisory Group, and by many responses to our public consultations, disability assistance and adult disability payment. We have therefore, as I have laid out, focused on making changes that will have the greatest positive impact on how people experience accessing support, whilst not risking safe and secure delivery. That is why the rules for adult disability payment will be broadly the same PIP during the transition period. I want to stress, though, that what will be delivered on day 1 will be significantly different from how people experience the DWP, but it is also not the limit of Scottish ministers' aspirations. We have already announced an independent review of adult disability payment, which will be carried out in two stages. The initial stage will commence later this year, and we will look at the mobility criteria, and then the full adult disability framework will be considered during the second stage of the review, beginning in summer 2020. In conclusion, I am confident and determined that from day 1 adult disability payment will deliver a new and much improved experience for disabled people and those with long-term health conditions. That experience will reflect the human right to social security and the ethos of dignity, fairness and respect that is at the heart of the new system that we are creating and delivering. I welcome this opportunity today to assist the committee in its consideration of the regulations, and I am now very happy to take any questions that committee members may have. Thank you very much for that opening statement, minister. I know that this is an area that my fellow committee members are very passionate about, and they have very many questions this morning to put to yourself. Our questions are grouped around themes. Theme 1 is changes to eligibility criteria and independent review. Theme 2 is about the transfer from PIP and DLA over to ADP. Theme 3 is moving from child disability payment to adult disability payment. Theme 4 is about gathering evidence and consultations. Theme 5 is about the financial impacts, and theme 6 is about monitoring and devaluation. I am going to move to committee members for their questions. I am going to start with Maria McNair and then over to Pam Duncan-Glans after that. Somebody over to yourself. Thank you, convener, and congratulations on your appointment. Good morning, minister. Is it the case that if the Westminster Government got rid of the 20m rule for PIP, it would create the space for a similar change in Scotland to take place for ADP? The important consideration is about the theme of what Maria McNair is raising about why the criteria that we are bringing forward, eligibility criteria, needs to be largely the same. Fundamentally, as I know, the committee is aware around three important considerations. One is safe and secure transfer. Two is making sure that we do not create a two-tier system where people on PIP who are still to transfer into Social Security Scotland would be subject to different conditions than those who are applying for ADP. And thirdly, fundamental important questions around passporting and ADP being considered on a like-for-like basis by the DWP as PIP is for passporting benefits. I think that it is important to point out that we have made some changes within the eligibility criteria that relate to the better experience that we want people to have. Throughout our engagement with DWP, it was important for them that there were no significant changes to the eligibility criteria in order for ADP to be considered on a like-for-like basis for passporting. Now, related to the 20-metre rule, which Maria McNair raised and that you have received as a committee, a lot of evidence of that, as have Scottish Government ministers, had a lot of engagement on this issue with stakeholders and others. It is important that people understand that if the DWP were to make a change to their eligibility rules, that could have an impact. One, it would mean that we would be able to be more assured that the DWP would consider ADP with different eligibility rules that were concurrent with any changes that the DWP were making for passporting issues. However, the considerations of any added payment out around the fiscal framework would also be built into the resources that are received by the Scottish Government in terms of having greater resources for paying source security. Of course, we are already committing a significant amount of additional resources in order to pay over and above what we received from the UK Government through the fiscal and social security benefits system, because we want to do more and assist people more in our communities. Of course, we have had no indication from the DWP that the intent of changing the 20-metre rule would certainly not be a suggestion in their green paper. Thank you very much for that answer, minister. Mary, do you have anything further? Yes, I have two further questions, convener. You are clear and sour scoffs that safe and secure transfer must be the priority before major changes are considered to the approach to any further change that will be given by the independent review. You have indicated that the first stage of the rule will focus on the mobility criteria. What is the rationale for this? Can you say any more about the wider remit of the review? Of course, the independent review was announced by Shirley-Anne Somerville when she was Cabinet Secretary for Social Security. That was a recognition of the fact that, as we deliver adult disability payment, we want to receive feedback and insight as to how stakeholders believe that the new system is performing, but to think ahead as to when we move beyond the period of case transfer and all the people in receipt of disability benefits are in the Scottish Social Security system, what then can and should we change whether that is the eligibility criteria or other considerations? We are in this system at the moment, not just the hybrid system of the UK Government, but a system in which we have the two processes in tandem from the 21st of March when we launch adult disability payment. We will accept new applications for adult disability payment and simultaneously transfer 300,000 individuals who are on-pip into our system. The review is really important, and it is important that it has the feedback from how people are experiencing the system. We plan to establish a group to undertake the review with its members and chair drawn from outside the Scottish Government, and it is intended that the group will secure input from people with experience of applying for and receiving ADP. I appreciate that there will be a lot of interest in the review, and I am determined that, as many people as possible, we will have the opportunity to contribute to the process. The review will be completely independent, as I have said, and therefore it would be wrong for me to pre-empt any recommendations. However, planning and scoping work is already under way on the first stage of the review, and I will provide a further update as soon as possible to the committee and Parliament. The reason why we wanted the review as I laid out to my letter to the committee on the 17th of December to commence with consideration of the mobility criteria is because we are very mindful and respectful of the significant amount of evidence that the committee has received and discussion that there has been around the mobility criteria, and we want to make sure that we are getting that process of reviewing those considerations under way as quickly as we can. The changes to terminal illness criteria will make a huge difference, and the change not only does not require a time limit anymore, which is fantastic, but also gives a more generous award and PIP, as I understand it. It is a diagnosis that will automatically get an enhanced rate of daily living in mobility. Is this change motivated with the intentions of ensuring that those with a terminal diagnosis get a higher possible financial support by a time of greatest need? I am absolutely right to highlight the important differences. I am mindful of the fact that, not so long ago, when I was a member of the committee going through the process of the Social Security Act 2018, when it was a bill, there was really powerful evidence provided by those organisations that support people at a time of terminal illness and their families. I think that it is a real tribute to the Parliament as a whole and the stakeholders that we work with that we have got to the point of delivering that support for those with a terminal illness. Of course, it is important that there is an appropriate adequacy of support, but that people get that support quickly. That is exactly why we have taken the position in which we will rely on the evidence of clinicians in order to make our decisions around granting those with a terminal illness that support, so that it is not a consideration around time periods but a consideration around people's situation and the medical position. That will enable people to get that support as quickly as possible. Thank you for your questions and thank you to the minister for his responses. I will now move on to questions from Pam Duncan-Glancy. After that, we will bring Jeremy Balfour in for his questions. Over to you, Pam. Thank you very much, convener, and congratulations on your appointment to the committee and as chair. I also put on record my thanks to Neil Gray, who was an excellent chair of the committee, and who we will miss much and well in his new role. I also want to say thank you to the minister and his officials for coming here today with the regulations. The current system of support for disabled people is wholly inadequate. I recognise and congratulate the Government for the work that they have done to make the improvements that they have. However, it will come as no surprise to the minister, the officials or other members of the committee that I believe that we are considering regulations today that are a serious missed opportunity. In the midst of a cost-of-living crisis, when 31 per cent of disabled people are living in poverty, we could have been looking at addressing things like eligibility and adequacy of these payments, but instead we are looking very much only at process. I recognise that some of the changes in that process will improve it, but the bar was very low. I am underwhelmed by what we see in front of us today. Let me start by picking up the point about the 20-metre rule, if that is all right, minister. The minister set out that the UK Government has not yet indicated their intent to get rid of the 20-metre rule, but I note that neither has the Scottish Government nor the minister, despite the fact that I have asked a direct question several times about your intention about the 20-metre rule. Could the minister set out today whether it is the Government's intention to get rid of the 20-metre rule? First of all, thank you to Pam Duncan Glancy for her engagement and for her recognition of the significant changes that are being made. On the points raised around the fact that we have been constrained in our process of how much we can consider the eligibility criteria for change and consider adequacy for change, I would just refer to my points in my opening statement about the fact that, in this current situation where we have these two work streams in tandem of launching new benefit for applications and undertaking the significant case transfer unprecedented in its complexity, we have to make sure that we are providing a situation where those who are receiving the new benefit of adult disability payment and those who are being transferred under the case transfer process from August receive the same allowance and are subject to the same criteria for assessment. That is about equality and parity and making sure that, while we are in this two tandem work stream that we are treating people the same and not having a two-tier system. I talked about the review earlier and I think that that is an important point that I would just like to emphasise again that we recognise that once the case transfer has been complete, we should, as a society, as a Parliament, together consider what changes we should make at that juncture and what people's experience has been of adult disability payment. We will receive, through the process of that review, once there has been experience of the new system, what people's perceptions and experiences have been through that process. We appreciate that we have heard time and time again over recent years that the pit descriptors are not consistently applied to individuals, particularly with mental health conditions, fluctuating conditions for learning disabilities. That has been indicative in the fact that numerous successful appeals to the DWP show that the pit criteria have been wrongly interpreted. For example, when an individual is asked whether they can complete an activity, either at application stage or during a consultation, the pit criteria and the way that DWP has considered those issues has not been properly applied and consistently considered. However, in our system, when an individual is asked whether they can complete an activity, either at an application stage or during a consultation with Social Security Scotland or a practitioner, the full impact and activity on the individual, including pain and fatigue, will be considered. We will apply the reliability criteria properly and consistently. If someone tells us that they cannot walk a certain distance without losing balance, it will mean that they cannot walk that distance safely. The changes that we are making to the delivery of adult disability payments, such as providing additional application channels and replacing assessments at personal centre consultations, are intended to address many of the concerns that people rightly have around how mobility criteria are applied. We will monitor the impacts of those changes on awards and collect feedback from clients and stakeholders, as I have said. We cannot know for certain what the impacts of the improvements that we are making will be until we commence delivery. That is why it is important that we have the pilot and the review. The Scottish Fiscal Commission has also projected that we will spend more on adult disability payment because of the way that we are delivering it. That is an indication from them about the fact that they believe that more people will be successful in obtaining awards. Now is not the time to be definitive on particular parts of the eligibility criteria and whether they should change once we have undertaken the review. We will undertake the review and see what people's experiences of the new system are, and then together we can consider what the recommendations are of the review and what change we could or should make once we merge past the process of the twin set of work streams that we are going to be in very shortly of delivering the new benefit and the case transfer at the same time. Thank you very much for that minister. I can see from the chat that Evelyn Tweed would like to come in. Is it on this point, Evelyn? Sorry, convener. Is it on this point that you want to come in before I hand back to Pam? Yes, it is, convener. Good morning, minister. Can you outline for the committee how the Scottish Commission on Social Security fell about how the Scottish Government was dealing with eligibility and what was the review on the approach that the Scottish Government had taken? Thank you, convener, and to Evelyn Tweed. I think that it is an important point to raise, because I know both in committee's evidence on the 16th of December and from correspondence that I have sent to the committee that the committee will be aware that Scots support the position that we have taken after significant engagement with the Scottish Government and further consideration of the issues. That was really important engagement that we had with Scots and we were very grateful for it. They endorsed our overriding commitment to stay from secure transfer, stating that they are persuaded that changing eligibility criteria at this time would risk undermining the delivery of adult disability payment with extremely detrimental consequences for people who depend on it. We are also mindful that, in the short term, we agree that those significant changes should be made to eligibility rules to ensure a safe and secure transition. We have engaged with those that you would expect on this really important issue, and we are both reassured, comforted and grateful that they share our position. Of course, collectively, we want to, in time, not just in the short term, through the delivery of ADP and all the significant improvements that we made that allayed out earlier in the session, but also in the years thereafter, once the case transfer has been undertaken, we all want to improve the situation as much as we can for disabled people. It is important that we undertake the process in the years ahead of case transfer and launch in the way that it is envisaged in those regulations to make sure that we both deliver adult disability payment better than it is delivered in terms of experience and the approach that I have laid out and the important changes that we are making, and then that we consider after safe and secure transfer where we go next with benefit. I should also state that the changes that we are making, particularly around the reliability criteria, will make a significant difference for people, and the experience of adult disability payment will be much improved. Just like the feedback on child disability payment to the Scottish Government and Social Security Scotland has been very positive about people's experience of it being a very different system on approach to that, which they had experienced previously in the DWP. Thank you very much for that minister. I am going to hand back to Pam for her to continue. Thank you, convener, and thank you for the points that you raised as a result of my question, minister. I am not sure, though, that you said whether or not it was your intention to get rid of the 20m rule, so perhaps you could address that in your closing remarks. I also noted your point about not being the time to do that. I can't help but say that we were also told that in 2018, when disabled people were keen to put the ambition that they wanted on the face of the bill, as were the Scottish Labour Party, and we were told in 2018 to trust that that would be sorted in reds. Here we are in 2022 and still eligibility criteria and adequacy of the payments aren't going to be addressed again until the payments under that new system will be after the review. Looking like that will be at least 2025, so it seems for disabled people who, again, 31 per cent of whom are living in poverty across this country are being told now is not the time, so, hopefully, the time will be soon. I ask the minister to set out when is the time. I have other specific questions if it's okay and I'll move on. On the descriptors, thank you for your reassurance about the way that they'll be applied. I'm confident that some of the work that's gone into training through Social Security Scotland may indeed bear that out and we'll look forward to seeing that and scrutinising that further. Can you set out whether you've considered what a system is not a functional system that looks at points-based systems? Have you considered what else you could do to address that and when? Is the minister able to more explicitly reference psychological distress and how that will be applied in the descriptors and in the assessment process? We've also heard from many, many people who have given evidence to the committee that there's not enough in the regulations about being able to make a journey safely. That can make things really difficult for people who have mental health issues, particularly to get the enhanced rate. How does the Government plan to address that? Related to that, changing and variable conditions is something that a number of organisations and people have told us are not significantly addressed in the regulations. What could the minister do to set out on the record how those concerns will be addressed in the regulations or future guidance? I appreciate that there are a lot of questions here, but I realise that I have the talking stick for a limited period. Can the minister also set out how he sees the relationship and possible divergence between case law in the UK and Scotland as the payments were rolled out? What would happen, for example, when a change in UK case law would mean that the UK system became more generous than its counterpart? Finally, will there be any explicit reference in guidance to how the new system will support people with mental health through the application process, and can the minister set out what that support would look like? Thank you for your questions. I will try to come back on as many of those as possible, but I will forgive me if I have come back on some of those, given the extent of the list of the questions that you have provided. First, in terms of considerations around the 20-meter rule, we need to consider that in the process of the review to get the feedback of how adult disability payment is performing once we have commenced launch, and we need to undertake the independent review in order for the Government to receive feedback on the eligibility criteria. Of course, we are undertaking consideration of mobility criteria in 2022, as I set out in a previous answer. In terms of the considerations around the points that have been raised with the committee with regard to those with fluctuating conditions and mental health, mental illness and ill health, I appreciate the evidence that the committee received on 16 December and considered that with interest in intent and in a proper manner. I am grateful for the evidence that was provided. I will go back to some of the key fundamental points that our new system will deliver, which is that we have removed all functional examinations from the process. As members will know, the DWP carries out examinations such as testing flexibility and strength or the mental state examination. Those tests do not meet our values of fairness, dignity and respect, and we know from the feedback from individuals who have been through the process that they have caused widespread stress and anxiety, and we do not want that in our new system. The liability criteria, which I mentioned previously, require a client, a person to be able to carry out activity safely, repeatedly and to an acceptable standard in a reasonable time, are more fully defined in our legislation in order to help us to make sure that when an individual is asked whether they can complete an activity such as walking 20 metres, the full impact of that activity on an individual, including pain and fatigue, will be considered. When the points of consideration are there with regard to fluctuating conditions, which I really appreciate, has been a point in the evidence that the committee has heard, and the improvements that we are making to the delivery of ADP such as providing additional application channels and replacing assessments with person-centred consultations are intended to address many of the concerns that people have around the eligibility criteria and how they are applied and its impacts on people with fluctuating conditions such as MS and epilepsy. We have proposed a new way of making entitlement decisions for adult disability payment, as I have said, to ensure that the criteria are fairly applied to all clients, to all people, and that includes stringently applying the reliability criteria, which I have just pointed out what that involves, and the fact that, as I have said, the criteria are more fully enshrined in the regulations and embedded in every step of the decision making process, which means that decisions will take full account of fluctuating conditions. As I have said earlier today, the application process will be inclusive, accessible and provided in a range of formats through a range of routes that is online, phone, post and in person, and will be transparent throughout the process to help in the individual's journey. That will also include comprehensive guidance to clients on how the eligibility criteria are applied so that they know the process as well. Of course, we will ensure that the client is supported in providing relevant information, guided by the reliability criteria about how they feel after completing an activity and how long those impacts last for, and throughout the process, of course, we will have the advocacy service as well. I am just going to bring in Janet Richardson with regard to the agency's perspective on support for clients with mental health problems, and I would be grateful, Janet, if you could elaborate on some of what I have said for the benefit of having them on clients in the rest of the committee. Good morning, convener, good morning, committee members and thank you minister. I just wanted to really pick up on the point about what support we are providing for clients with mental health to make sure that they feel supported through this process. It is fair to say that from the very beginning we have worked really closely with stakeholder groups to look at what concerns clients, particularly with mental health problems, about interacting with organisations such as ours, and we have really taken that on board in terms of how we are dealing with people. We have also recruited our health and social care practitioners, many of whom are specialised in mental health issues, and the fact that we are directly recruiting those people rather than being in an agency, they are working really closely with our case managers to create that relationship and to create that interaction so that they fully understand some of the issues that clients will have in that space. Equally, our local delivery teams are working again closely in every local authority with third sector and stakeholders, so they are getting to understand some of the issues and the concerns that clients have and again build that trust and relationship with people so that, hopefully, they feel more supported and able to come to us for the advice and support that they need. That is very much part of the training for all of our colleagues in Social Security Scotland is around creating and building trust, and we recognise that that is something really important for people so that they understand why we need to ask them for the information, what we will do with information, how it will be used and create that relationship, which we think is missing from the process just now. Thank you very much for that contribution, Janet. Minister, do you have anything further to add? Thank you, convener. I just also wanted to bring in Nathan Gale, as he will be able to elaborate on some of the points that I made on psychological distress and safety and case law, which I think will be helpful in answer to Pamdankan Glancy. That is fantastic. Thank you. Good morning, convener and members. I think that Ms Duncan-Clancy raised an important point around the ability to do activities safely and evidence that has previously been raised to the committee around people safely completing journeys. I think that it is important to note that in our regulations, we have more fully defined safety to take into account developed case law. That is intended to ensure that our case managers understand clearly how that criteria is supposed to be applied. We have done a great deal of work with welfare rights advisers and other expert stakeholders to ensure that developments in case law that have happened in relation to PIP are fully incorporated into our regulations. We know that there can sometimes be a lag between case law coming in and the PIP legislation being amended to reflect that. We have made sure that the case law is embedded in our regulations from that outset. In relation to psychological distress, that relates to people with mental health conditions and their ability to mobilise and move around outside. We are aware that that is an issue that stakeholders have raised. They have concerns about how those criteria may be applied. To build on what the minister said previously, those are examples of how the criteria are applied and making sure that they accurately reflect how the client experiences their life will be instructive as we go forward into the review and if there are concerns around psychological distress and how that is handled in that disability payment. Again, that will be something that will be able to get raised during the review by stakeholders. It is definitely something that we are aware of. We are keen to see how that develops as ADP is launched. Thank you very much for that, Nathan. Minister, do you have anything further to add or are we able to move on? Nothing further for me. I hope that what I and the officials have been able to provide has covered the points that Ms Duncan-Glancy wished us to do. Thanks very much. I will hand the talking stick over to Jeremy Balfour next, but Pam Duncan-Glancy will hand it back to you when we go into the next theme. Over to you, Jeremy, thanks. Good morning, convener, and can I add my congratulations on your appointment, and I look forward to working with you and also to wish Neil all the best in his new role in the Scottish Government. I have about four or five questions to ask the minister, but perhaps I can just take them one at a time so that we do not get lost in them. The first question is easy to develop, but the final point is just made in regard to case law. What is the Scottish Government thinking in regard to case law that happens once ADP is up and running? If there is a case decided in a tribunal in Newcastle, which would affect someone's mobility, will that automatically be applied to Scottish case law, or how would it be implemented and who makes that decision? Thank you, Mr Balfour. The considerations around the application of case law force and, as new case law emerges, and the repercussions of that in terms of what it means for the delivery of all of our benefits, which are related to the particular case law, is something that we undertake consideration of, as you would expect, on a regular and consistent basis. At this juncture, I will bring in Kayleigh Blair in a moment from the Scottish Government legal division. Of course, we are absolutely committed to considering case laws that emerge in different parts of the UK and what repercussions that have for our system and people in Scotland. Kayleigh, I would be grateful if you could speak briefly on that matter. Thank you, minister, and good morning, convener and members. Thank the member for their question. It is correct, as the minister has said, that, as case law emerges, consideration will be given in individual instances to how that should be taken on board and perhaps implemented further within the adult disability payment regulations, as the members will be aware. Once adult disability payment is a benefit separate for clients within Scotland, that limits the reach for UK-level case law with regards to personal independence payment and the obligations as far as making changes in line with personal independence payments, so that a determination is made as to whether the developments in UK-level case law would be beneficial and should be carried forward within adult disability payment as well. The ability for us to determine whether or not we should follow the same approach as UK-level case law for personal independence payments will be broader in the sense that we will be able to make the decision as to whether it should be followed within our benefit here in Scotland with adult disability payment. Separately, we will be seeing case law in Scotland around adult disability payment itself, which will go on to impact the criteria and how it is applied in practice in relation to adult disability payment. I think that we should play for that answer. I just clarify with her then if and some of the most key decisions around PIP and DLA previously have been made by the Supreme Court, so any decision made by the Supreme Court would not be binding on PIP, would not be binding on the Scottish system, but can she clarify what all decisions have been made previously, so they have been made up to the transfer of ADP? Are they binding on decisions made now, or are we starting with an absolute clean page? I would be grateful if you could answer, Mr Balfour. As my colleague Nathan mentioned, the regulations have been developed with all the case law that has been in place so far in relation to personal independence payments in mind. Many expansions have been made on the face of the regulations to ensure consistency with the case law that has developed in relation to personal independence payments. Examples of that can be seen, as we have already discussed, in relation to the reliability criteria being expanded, such as in the definitions of safely and to an acceptable standard. The case law that is currently in existence is being carried forward so that it will be applied in practice in relation to adult disability payment. The reason that we have made that on the face of the legislation is because had we not been moving into adult disability payment, those aspects would not be binding in the same way within the Scottish system, so by pulling them into the legislation that way, we have ensured that consistency on those points. Minister, you say that one of the reasons that we cannot change the criteria is because of passport benefits that might be affected by that. How many meetings have you had with the UK Government and DWP to discuss whether that is the case and what line the DWP is taking on it? What individual decisions have you had with Westminster cabinet ministers or ministers? The considerations around passporting and ADP being treated on a like-for-like basis, as PIP with UK Government took place before my appointment, so I can say that the discussions that I have had, the three things that I have had with UK ministers since my appointment, have focused on where we go forward and other aspects of the social security system, but also considerations around UK Government's green paper and what that will mean for delivery of disability benefits in Scotland and the interaction between the two systems. The engagement that took place with ministers and officials in consideration of passporting were in the last Parliament. It is important to emphasise that, throughout those discussions, the DWP has consistently made clear and, throughout numerous discussions over that period, that passporting is subject to delivery of such a like-for-like system at this time. That was the clear position of the DWP through that period. I should say that the changes that we have made to eligibility criteria, which my officials and I spoke about earlier in relation to, for example, the reliability criteria being more fully defined in our legislation, and that, for us to achieve that within the regulations before us today, required significant engagement with DWP. There has been engagement in the process of a hybrid system and the need to deliver new benefits but also undertake case transfer. We, based on the feedback from stakeholders, prioritised, safe and secure delivery and, because we think that it is the right thing to do. Part of the safe and secure delivery is making sure that passported benefits are secured in the process and that adult disability payment is treated on a like-for-like basis as PIP in a similar way by the DWP for passporting. Is it just to clarify that you have not had any direct discussions with the UK Government in the last 10 months about changing the criteria and how that would affect passport controls? That has all happened in the last Parliament. You have not discussed that at all with any UK minister in the last nine or 10 months. I do not want to be definitive and to say that it has never come up, but it certainly was not a point of negotiation because, in order to deliver adult disability payments safely and securely, those discussions had to take place in time prior to my appointment. Because of the engagement around that disability payment has been on-going for some time, it was unfortunately delayed due to the pandemic because DWP had to reprioritise resources away from the Scottish Government and, as a whole, had to deal with the situation of the pandemic. Those decisions were part of considerations, negotiations and discussions in the period past. Thank you. The last question is from this section. The minister will be with me on that committee as we took through the legislation. If you go back and look at the comments by particularly Jeane Freeman when she was the cabinet secretary for us, there was a whole expectation that the criteria and eligibility would be very different from the time that we brought to her stage. The only significant change has been around terminus owners, which, interestingly, was amendments that were brought by me, Labour and the Greens. I might have been the only significant change that we have seen. What would you say this morning to someone with MS or epilepsy or another available condition, who, yes, might have a nice experience but will still be turned down because they don't meet this? Having waited six years for some significant change around eligibility, don't you feel that we, as the Scottish Parliament, have let those vulnerable disabled people down? First of all, I think that there has to be a recognition of the effect of the pandemic and there has to be a recognition of the fact that we are in a hybrid system and we are in a system at the moment where we are undertaking two really significant pieces of work, the launch of new benefits and the transfer of individuals from the DWP into our system. I would also say that the impact of the changes that we are making should be understated. We are introducing a new, simplified and compassionate system that will treat everyone with dignity, fairness and respect and provide people with that really improved experience. The impacts of those improvements, as I have stated, are reflected in the Scottish Fiscal Commission forecasts in which more people will be eligible for adult disability payment than can. Awards are also expected to be higher than PIP as a result of the improvements that we are making to the application process, decision making on entitlement and reviews. I would say to people that the change that we are delivering is significant and will make a difference. What I am looking forward to seeing and receiving is the feedback from people as they go through our new system. What we can think about together, once we have undertaken the really significant challenge and important task of case transfer in the years ahead, considering what the needs are for people and considering together how we provide more and continue to extend and enhance our social security system in the years ahead. We are at a period of really important introduction and delivery and transfer in order to build the strongest system, not just for the next 12 months, not just for the remainder of this parliamentary term, but in order to deliver a social security system for years and decades ahead that meets the needs of people across Scotland. The progress has been remarkable in the three years since 2018, the fact that we are about to deliver our 12th benefit. Seven benefits are new, we have established a new agency, it is growing, it is delivering, it is helping people and adult disability payment will be a significant new addition to what Social Security Scotland will deliver and will make a difference for disabled people all across Scotland. Is there more work to do in the years ahead? Absolutely, but we should be excited about what we are delivering in the period ahead about passing those regulations and about the difference that they will make for many, many people. Thank you very much for that minister. I am going to hand back over now to Pam Duncan-Glancy who is going to explore the issues in theme 2. After Pam Duncan-Glancy it will be Marie Wittnerigan. Thank you very much. And whilst I echo some of the sentiment that the minister has shared with us this morning around the changes to the process, I have to say that excitement is not the emotion I feel about the adult disability payment regulations in front of us today and I am not sure that other disabled people will either. Safe and secure transition is of course incredibly important and is someone who uses personal independence payment. I understand the importance of that payment still coming in order to pay for things like motability vehicles, but had we asked disabled people in 2018 if they wanted to wait until at least 2025 for fundamental changes to who was eligible or whether the payment was adequate, I think and also Bill Scott agrees in his evidence that he gave that we might have had a different answer around that. So I urge again the Government to pick up the pace on that. On the transfer of claimants from disability living allowance and PIC to adult disability payments, I just have a couple of questions around that. During the earlier years of the discussions around social security, opening adult disability payment was due to happen earlier, but it was delayed as a result of the pandemic from summer 2021 to 2022. Organisations such as SamH and others have said that they understand that the coronavirus pandemic has impacted on the original timescale and to a degree I can see that too. However, it is getting on a bit now. We believe that there should be mitigations for those affected by the delay. The Government made a welcome commitment that once adult disability payment was open to new applications, no-one with an existing award would be reassessed under the UK system. SamH has identified that the delay by a year on the regulations could mean at least 141,000 people in Scotland will still be on PIC or have entered the PIC system, who would have otherwise perhaps been assessed through adult disability payment. About 55,000 of those people may have a mental health problem, with a large proportion likely to have gone through a very difficult, as we have highlighted to PIC face-to-face assessment. To mitigate that, will the Government prioritise transfer of people from adult disability payment from PIC who successfully made a PIC claim during the delay period, and would you introduce a rapid review of failed PIC applications made during the delay period and a publicity campaign to encourage people to reapply? Thank you. I will try to come back to as many of those questions as I can, and if Pam Llywodrae wants to raise any others at the end of my remarks that I have not managed to cover, I would be happy to have them re-posed. I have to challenge the question about picking up the pace, because it is extremely unfair on the delivery of what the agency has undertaken. It lacks appreciation for the situation that we have been in with the pandemic and the fact that we are in this hybrid system, where we have to deliver the new benefits that require significant engagement with the DWP, but also undertake case transfer. I appreciate the evidence that the committee has heard. I listened carefully to what Bill Scott and others said, and it is somebody who, throughout my time on the committee, I have significant respect for. However, the case has been remarkable of what Social Security Scotland has delivered. The fact that we have a really strong agency that is performing, that is delivered well and that has delivered a new benefit in that time period that was not expected in the Scottish child payment, was created by the Scottish Government, delivered by the agency in a very short period of time, and it is something that I know that Parliament really strongly supports. Of course, we are doubling from April and working towards going out to under-16s from the end of this year, providing that we get the data from the DWP. Talking about the achievement of Social Security Scotland down, it is no good for the collective determination that I know that there is in this committee and across the Parliament for the agency to be a success. That is an agency that is delivering strongly and will deliver adult disability payment strongly as well. Yes, we can all be ambitious about how we want to do more, but we also need to be realistic about what can be achieved in this doing process while we have to undertake the case transfer as quickly as we can, but also about the fact that building a new agency and delivering a new service in the way that we have is an extremely complex process of building IT infrastructure, transferring data, engagement between two Governments, making sure that we adhere to all the legislative requirements, making sure that we have all the checks and balances in place, making sure that we have all the people in place. That is a significant exercise, and I think that the reason why Social Security Scotland and the Scottish Government directorate have been award-winning in the recent times for their achievements is because the progress that has been made in the delivery of Social Security Scotland is remarkable, and adult disability payment is a significant and key next step. I want to bring in Nathan Galan in a moment to talk about the fact that the changes that we are making will make a significant difference, but they are not just cosmetic. I will bring him in shortly, but I will touch on some of the points that are in case transfer. I know that there is significant interest in understanding that. Members will be aware from my letter yesterday that the case transfer process for those who will be approaching a reassessment will be prioritised so that they are naturally case transferring to our system, but we cannot consider it retrospectively because adult disability payment did not exist when people were assessed for PIP in months or years past, but, of course, if people want to make an application to adult disability payment when it is rolled out, it will be absolutely entitled to do that. Of course, Pam Duncan-Dansley rightly asked Bollard be a campaign to promote adult disability payment. We are continuously, as members know, through our benefit-take-up strategy and our various initiatives, promoting people to apply for all benefits that they are entitled to. One of the key differences in the Scottish Social Security system is that we want people to get the entitlements and the benefits that they are entitled to. We are proactively promoting the take-up of benefits because we believe that social security is a human right and that it is a collective investment in ourselves and each other, and it will be for the benefit of building a fairer society for everyone, and that will benefit everyone. We will continue to be proactive in encouraging people to apply. Nathan, I would be grateful if you could come in with some points around the fact that the significant changes that we are making. To build on what the minister has been saying about the changes, it is very important to remember the significance of those for disabled people. Throughout the two consultations that we have done, one on disability assistance in general and one specifically on adult disability payment, we have heard from so many disabled people who have had a negative experience in trying to apply to PIP and from people who have, just because of what they have heard about PIP, been too anxious to even try and apply. The fundamental changes that we are making, for example, to remove assessments and replace those with person-centred consultations that will not involve humiliating examinations that simply provide a snapshot of how that person is able to function in that one moment, are significant changes. It is hoped that those changes will encourage people who have previously been too anxious to apply for PIP to consider applying for ADP. It is important, when we are talking about the legislation and the changes that have been made, to look at those beyond that, particularly as I say, around our new consultation service. I wish to bring David Hillerbar in briefly on case transfer, just to add over and above what I have already said that it may be helpful for me to say that. Thank you minister. Good morning members. Specifically on the prioritisation issue for the PIP to ADP transfer, what we have heard very clearly from stakeholders as we have discussed case transfer for a number of years is that one of the main things that they want is to avoid DWP face-to-face assessments and to deliver on that commitment, which we agree is important. We have decided to prioritise for PIP to ADP case transfer those who would be subject to one of those DWP face-to-face assessments after ADP launches nationally. That is the prioritisation that we have decided. Someone who reports a change of circumstance to the DWP, their case will be selected for transfer. Someone who's fixed-term award is about to end and they would have to make an advance claim to PIP to continue, they are going to be selected for transfer. Those who are scheduled to have a review of their PIP award would likely require a face-to-face assessment. Those are the people who are going to be prioritised for transfer. We feel that this is a really good and we have strong reasons for deciding to prioritise cases for transfer in this way to avoid what stakeholders have told us can be a very stressful assessment with the DWP. That is why we have decided to prioritise in that way. Thank you very much for that, David. Minister, anything further to add before I come back to Pam to see if she has further questions? Nothing further, I just hope that we have answered most of the questions that Pam Duncan-Glancy put to me. Thank you. Pam, do you have anything further to ask at the moment? I do. Thank you, convener, and minister for your answer and to the officials for theirs. I am particularly reassured by the answer around the prioritisation of reviews or people whose circumstances change. That is helpful to have that on the record. I do have a final question, but before I turn to that, I would like to raise the point about talking down the work of the agency and the people who work in it. That is not how I characterise the problem here. The issue that we have is that the minister and his Government have promised since 2017 that there would be significant diversions within the PIP regulations to adult disability payment regulations. That is a significant number of years ago, and we do not see a significant difference between the PIP regulations and the adult disability payment regulations. It is that delay that I take issue with and that others take issue with. It is the Government's direction of that and not the delivery of the agency or the staff working hard, in particular during a pandemic, to deliver what they have done. The final question that I have on the transfer from DLA to PIP is about the fact that the regulations do not yet have anything in them about the transfer for people who are on DLA to adult disability payment. I wonder if the minister can set out why those are not in the regulations at the minute and what the scores note that they are forthcoming. It is just to ask the minister if there are any timescales that he has available to him that he can set out today. Of course, the undertaking of case transfer in all of these complexities is one of the main reasons why we have to be considerate of making sure that we do not create a two-tier system and making sure that that transfer is secure. I think that the comprehensive race has really important points around the transfer between DLA to ADP. I know that the committee received evidence on that as part of its consideration. Although it is not part of the regulations that we are discussing today, I can assure the committee that I will be updating them on this process shortly ahead of bringing forward separate draft regulations to make provision for transferring those cases. What we are covering today is our plans for adult disability payment and the detail of our processes for transferring the PIP awards of approximately 300,000 people safely and securely to adult disability payment and our commitment to make sure that they are paid the right amount at the right time. We also know that the considerations around the transfer from DLA to ADP is a really important process. As I said, we will bring forward regulations shortly and I will update the committee as soon as possible on that separately in following this session. That is great. Thank you very much, minister. I am going to move now to my colleague Marie McNair. Before I do so, I realise that we have quite a lot of themes and questions to still explore so that we can get everybody to try and ask their questions and answers to them as well. I know that I sound like the Presiding Officer, but I am conscious of time and we have a lot of questions to put to the minister and his officials. We will bring Jeremy McNair back in after that. Thank you, convener, and I will be quick. You have set out clear timescales for the transfer of PIP to ADP. The history of DWP transfers appear to suggest that timescales are often frequently missed. For example, for DLA to PIP and legacy benefits to universal credit, how confident are you that timescales that you have set out will be met? We are confident that the process for case transfer for child disability payment is operating well. Adult disability payment is a significant undertaking in that we initially will be looking at around 7,000 application transfers per month, so estimating around 7,000 a month initially, and then we will look to ramp that up as we get the system under way and be gaining more experience and confidence with the processes and making sure that everything is running properly for that safe and secure transfer. We continue to be determined to transfer all benefits by 2025. That is for the delivery of our case transfer for all benefits, and that is our aspiration, particularly for adult disability payment. Thank you very much for that, minister. Mary, do you have anything further to ask or add? No, for the questions, convener. Thank you. Thanks very much for that, Mary. Helpfully Jeremy has indicated to me that Pam covered his question, so if we could move on to my colleague Faisal Chaudhry for the next theme, three, he has some questions. Over to you, Faisal. Thank you very much, convener, and welcome to the group. Congratulations. I would also like to co-resulate our colleague Neil on his new post. Can I ask what support will be given to young people who are transferring on ADP and how will it be deployed? Thank you. I will try to be succinct as possible, convener. We discussed those issues when I brought previous regulations to the committee on 28 October. Although CDP and ADP are both types of assistance, they are different types of assistance and they are different because the eligibility criteria are different and reflect the difference in daily needs in the support of adults and children. For disabled children, their needs can change as they age and grow and up to the age of 16. One of the deciding factors is what their needs are when compared with a child of the same age who is not disabled. The criteria for adult disability payment, alternatively and more complexly, assesses the individual's ability to carry out the fine set that is necessary for daily living and the ability to safely accept a little stand when repeatedly and within a reasonable time period. If we were to treat this process as a transfer from one form of disability assistance to another, the information held by Social Security Scotland in relation to a CDP award would likely not be sufficient to make a decision on the entitlement to adult disability payment for many clients. Therefore, we need to provide further supporting information and potentially be required to make an application to adult disability payment. Therefore, in the best interests for young people, for clients on child disability payment, to make an application to adult disability payment, extensive support and advice will be available to young people and their families undergoing this process through a choice of channels. We are committed to making this process as smooth as possible with no gap in payment to ensure that it will be less disrupted than the current system. Scotland will welcome the changes that are likely to strengthen the rights of clients undergoing the process. I will leave at their convenience. Thank you very much for that minister. Do you have any further questions on that issue? Yes, I do. Thank you, minister, for the answer. In terms of the application process, will there be much difference for those who are and are not on the CDP? First of all, I will set it out from a CDP perspective. The process of applying for adult disability payment has been designed to minimise gaps in the entitlement to ensure that the process is as smooth as possible. In contrast to the current system, young people will be given significant flexibility in choosing when to apply for adult disability payment after their 16th birthday. Someone's child disability payment will only stop when a positive determination is made for adult disability payment. If they do not receive any award of adult disability payment or child disability payment, they will continue until their 18th birthday. There will be additional support. A range of measures will be put in place to ensure that the process at this key transition point is as straightforward as possible. They will be able to access a single secure digital portal to apply for all forms of assistance, update information and check eligibility. Our local delivery service team will be there for in-person support. Young people will also be entitled to the support of our independent advocacy service, which will, of course, cost £20 million to provide if they need support applying for adult disability payment. There will be considerations in place for those who are on-child disability payment and in their applications for adult disability payment, as I have set out in the last two answers. I hope that answers Mr Foesler to any of his questions. Thank you very much minister. Faisal, do you have anything further to ask? Yeah, just the last question, convener, and thank you very much. The short-term assistance is available while someone challenges a decision to reduce or stop their benefit, and it is not available for someone applying for a different benefit. The Scottish Government had rejected the SCO's recommendation. Can minister explain more in detail about their decision? First of all, some members will be aware that short-term assistance is something that is only available in the Scottish Social Security System and is not available in the DWP system, and just another one of the points that I need to emphasise are the fact that our system will be different and more supportive of people. Short-term assistance, as members will know, supports people in challenging a decision and accessing their rights under the Social Security Act 2018. It addresses barriers to accessing justice through removing certain financial disincentives to challenging decisions that exist in the UK DWP system. However, and this is the important point and answer to Mr Faisal's question, child disability payment and adult disability payment are separate forms of assistance with different eligibility criteria, and short-term assistance is not designed to be a bridge payment between two forms of assistance and extending the scope of the short-term assistance in that way would represent a significant departure from the current policy intent of short-term assistance in requiring to be paid on the basis of an award a client would not longer be eligible for because of their age or because of the indemn receipt of adult disability payment. Continuing to pay a client's previous award during the redetermination relies on a client having a previous award for a particular form of assistance that has been reduced or stopped. If short-term assistance were to be extended to cover the smooth between forms of assistance, it would be paid on the basis of a different payment relating to different eligibility criteria to cover a period where a client was challenging a decision on a separate form of assistance. It is effectively short-term assistance for the redetermination and appeals process, not as a bridging payment. Thank you very much for that answer, minister. I am now going to bring my colleague Miles Briggs in and after that will be my colleague Natalie Dawn, who will speak to theme 3 but also move on to theme 4. Over to yourself, Miles. Thank you. Thank you very much, convener. Good morning to the panel. Congratulations on your appointment. Can I also pass on my thanks to Neil Gray? We all miss his colourful socks, I think, in committee, when we are able to meet in person again. Good morning, minister. There are a few questions that I wanted to carry on from the line of questioning for social charity that have developed there. Specifically, I wondered what the Scottish Government's view was with regard to the merits around a single disability benefit that would apply for children working age and older people. Thank you for that. The process of considerations around that, I presume that the committee's interest in it, is with regard to considerations around the green paper from the UK Government. We do not want to pre-empt the review. The necessary prioritisation of safe and secure delivery of adult disability payment means that we have been clear throughout this process about our intention that changes to eligibility criteria should not be made for the case transfer process, complete, as are stated many times today. The second stage of the independent review that I talked about earlier will enable exploration of wider considerations around how we want us in Scotland. That will provide an opportunity to consider alternative approaches, such as a whole-life disability benefit, without introducing a significant change to eligibility criteria that should put safe and secure transfer at risk. In order to do that, we need an agency capable of delivering change and adapting, and that is why it is therefore important in building the capacity of Social Security Scotland that we undertake the period ahead in a safe and secure way. However, we want to hear what the independent review says, and I think that the point that Mr Briggs raised is, of course, that will be a point of interest in that review process. Thank you for that answer. It would be useful to update the committee on any timelines that the Government is aware of with that independent review, because we are quite keen to add value to that where we can as well. I wanted to ask about some of the changes that have been announced today by DWP with regard to PIP application processes to try to make it easier for people to start a new claim. Have the Scottish Government captured and been involved in that work? As we see the changes going forward, specifically for individuals who need assistance to make a claim, people who will not necessarily be the individual who is making a phone call, for example, but supporting someone, will that be captured in any changes to the ADP system? Is that something the minister is aware of? We see a system that can be flexible, both at the UK level and in Scotland. Excuse me, I am not aware of the changes that have been announced today, which might be something more about the UK Government's approach to intergovernmental relations than anything else. However, I look forward to examining it with interest. Our system, in terms of its accessibility, is the fact that people will be able to apply in a way that suits them best, whether it is online, in person through our local authority teams, whether that is on-phone or through video calls. All of those aspects in terms of the accessibility of our system make a difference. The fact that people will be able to apply online will be significantly improved. The process of going through an online application that we have designed, the interface in a way that will be much more helpful for people in order to make sure that we get accurate results in terms of the findings that are cited at the end of the process, but also the experience for people. Of course, there will be support in Scotland both through the local delivery teams and the independent advocacy service that are not available elsewhere in the UK. I am grateful for Mr Briggs for raising the points that he is aware of in terms of DWP announcements. I look forward to examining it and perhaps dealing with Mr Briggs on the committee on them further in due course. Thank you, minister. I must ask you to have further questions. Just finally, thank you for that. It is an important area that we should develop on some of the work that is going on. Specifically returning to younger people, because it is important that we really see a system that can meet their needs. How do you think that the system has been designed to really consider younger people and how they may not be encouraged, they may not be aware of what benefits are available, and how will we see that change compared to what has gone previously? Of course, the introduction of child disability payment, which is already in place, is a significant improvement and change that has been undertaken. As I talked about earlier, as the number of people in the child disability payment system reached the age of 16, in that period between the age of 16 and 18, there will be significant improved support and awareness of how they go through the process of applying for adult disability payment. I will bring Janet Richardson in a moment to talk about it from an agency side, but the way that we, as a Government, are promoting our benefits more widely is that all the discussions that we have had collectively with ourselves on committee and more generally as a Parliament on the importance of the benefits take up strategy are the importance of utilising all communications and networks to raise awareness of what sort of security support is available. We are in a healthy place on that, but there is always more that we can do to raise awareness in communities of what is available. Of course, an adult disability payment is launched if Parliament chooses to pass those regulations, which is what they hope they do. That will be again an opportunity for all of us, in every constituency, in every region, to promote those new benefits and to encourage people, or if they need it and if they are entitled to it, because we want them to get it. Thank you very much for that, minister. Males, is that you? I am happy to hand it over to you, convener, if you are interested in time. That is great, thank you very much. I said that I would bring Janet in, but perhaps I could... Oh, sorry, there you go. Yes, no, if you want to bring Janet in on you, but come in, Janet, thanks. Thank you, convener, thank you minister. I will be brief on this, because minister, I think that you covered quite a lot there in terms of the support for young people. We are working closely with Young Scotland. Our local delivery teams are out and about in our local communities and reaching out to stakeholders who are supporting young people. Obviously, we have had quite extensive feedback so far from the way that we are interacting with people for child disability payment, and we are linking that into how we will take that forward into adult as well. There is a lot of learning going on at the moment. The other thing that we have done, obviously, in that young people space, which is primarily for the child disability payment at the moment, but will come into force for adult as well, is that we have recruited practitioners who are specialists in children's health and wellbeing issues. We have proactively recruited people into that space as well to support young people going forward. Thank you very much for that. Just briefly, convener, I would just also say that I noted Bill Scott's evidence to the committee on the member and his positive comments around the difference that the local delivery teams have made in the delivery of child disability payment, and his important points about how word of mouth around the different experience and the better service has been quite significant when it comes to child disability payment. I am confident that when we deliver adult disability payment that we will see a similar effect of people having a different and improved experience in that and helping to build confidence in the communities that we are providing. Thank you very much for those additional comments, minister. They were very helpful. I am going to move on to my colleague Natalie Dawn, who has some questions on this theme and also theme 4, and then we will bring Evelyn to read and to speak to theme 5. Natalie, over to yourself, thank you. Thanks, convener. We have touched on a couple of the points that I was going to raise, but I am just going to seek a little bit more clarification on theme 3, and then I will move on to theme 4. I think that it is really, really positive the flexibility that we are given to 16-year-olds in terms of applying between 16 and 18. I am just wondering if you can give me a little bit more information on the sentiments and the reasoning that we have chosen to do. We also touched on the local delivery services a second ago, and I just want to elaborate a little bit more on the information that you have given. Do you feel that they are going to have a strong role in helping people to transfer from child disability payment to ADP? I think that the feedback from Bill Scott on this point to the committee on 16 December was powerful and feedback on the difference that the local delivery teams have made with regard to the delivery of CDP and helping people to undertake those applications. Of course, that would be the same for adult disability payment. The pandemic and the restrictions have had an impact. For example, local delivery teams are running out face-to-face assistance, whether that is in community settings or in people's homes. However, as restrictions ease, those aspects will gain even more prominence, but local delivery teams, the fact that they are in author to local authorities and making impact on what people apply, is a significant improvement with regard to the Scottish local security system and is making a positive difference in communities. The importance that we have given to people transferring from child disability to adult disability payment, we have prioritised the awards of of clients who are between 15.5 and 18.2 that they will be receiving child disability payment and can be supported by Social Security Scotland when it is time for them to transition to adult disability payment. That also minimises the need for those who require an appointee upon turning 16 to have to go through two different appointee processes, one with DWP and another with us once they are awards are transferred. We decided to prioritise those who meet the special rules for terminal illness to make sure that they can avail themselves of our more generous eligibility rules as soon as possible. We are still working with DWP to determine how we will prioritise the awards of clients who are under 15.5, but we will do so in a way that best minimises the biggest impact that those who are staying with the DWP system may face. That is helpful in the time answering those questions. Sorry, convener. I was just, thank you minister. As I said, it is positive to flexibility. I think that it shows that we are really taking a person-centred approach to this. I will move on to theme 4. Again, we have touched on some of this, but I just went a little bit more clarity. Can you give us a general update on the recruitment of the 2000 additional staff, how that is progressing and specifically how it is progressing in relation to the case managers and the specialist practitioners? I know that that was mentioned in the letter that you sent. I would also like to ask again, we have touched on some of the training and how we are taking people on in terms of how people are going to deal with those applying for disability benefits. We have all heard sort of horror stories of how people have been treated by DWP, et cetera. How will you ensure with the most complex of benefits where people really need support, they need respect? How will you ensure that that will be adhered to at all times? Such important questions. I will bring Janet Richardson in shortly, but briefly and personally for myself. I hope that the letter that I sent yesterday was reassuring and of interest to the committee. We are on track with the recruitment of case managers and practitioners. We have treated case managers, practitioners and senior practitioners with backgrounds in social care, social work, nursing, learning of disability, mental health and general health, physiotherapy and occupational therapy. The skill set spanning across those backgrounds is vast. It includes cancer, kidney disease, neurodiversity, long-term, mental health, adults with problematic alcohol or substance abuse, arthritis and in disorders. Our recruitment has been focused on senior practitioners ensuring that there is experience of meeting the needs of the health and social care professionals when we have been recruiting senior practitioners. We facilitate monthly information sessions internally in social care. We invite those who are interested in our vacancies to come to an information session to learn more about our job goals and to encourage further recruitment. In terms of training, everyone who delivers disability assistance, including practitioners, will undergo robust training reflective of the core values of dignity, fairness and respect. That will include training on the impact of common health conditions. Wherever possible, that training will be developed in consultation with and delivered in conjunction with people with lived experience of health conditions and disabilities. Training will be on-going, and social school Scotland will continue to look for ways to add to training for staff and work with organisations in order to provide that, and that is to ensure that we continue to get that insight from stakeholders, particularly around conditions where it is important that there is an awareness within the agency and those making decisions of the subtleties, complexities and nuances of certain conditions. Specific training and guidance will also be provided to practitioners and case managers on the special rules for terminal illness. I can say a lot more, but I will leave it there in the interests of time. I would be grateful if Janet could come in briefly with any points that I have not made yet. Of course, Janet also referred to the fact that we have recruited people with expertise in working with young people, so she has already made that point as well. I would like to re-emphasise some of the points that the question was about how we can make sure that people have the skills that we need when they are looking at some of the complex kinds of disabilities. What we are doing is using a scenario-based approach and using case studies in our training. The case managers are working alongside our practitioners with cases that we have put together from liaising with clients themselves and also from stakeholders of real-life cases, obviously anonymised, but to help us to understand what the impact of some of those conditions are to make sure that the case managers and the practitioners work closely together on that. In terms of the recruitment, we already have people in place now for adult disability for the pilot, so that training is already on-going. It takes somewhere around two months to get our case managers up to speed and they then have quite a lengthy period of consolidation before they actually go into that live working environment. Our recruitment has been really successful in terms of case managers. I think that we are welcoming something around 800 different colleagues, not just as case managers, into the agency between the start of the year and the end of March, so absolutely our recruitment processes are really in the technical training that we give to our case managers. It is important to say that they all go through what we call intelligent kindness and trauma-informed approach. It is not just about how they assess the information that the client gives, which is absolutely important, but it is about how they deal with clients and how they make them feel. The main thing is that we trust the information that comes from the client in the name and that we are not always looking for additional information there. Briefly on the practitioners, the recruitment for that is well into way. We are expecting that we will need around 300 practitioners when we get fully into adult disability payment. That is a ballpark figure. It is not something that we are aiming to definitely get to, but that is what we think we will need. We do have around 30 practitioners in place just now. Again, they are going through that really comprehensive training, which we talked about earlier. It is not just about the experience that they already have. It is about how we will need them to help us to get to the right decision for the clients working closely with the case management. Thanks very much for that, Janet. That is very helpful. Minister, anything further to add? I know that Natalie would like to come back in with a further question. You will note in the letter that I sent to you yesterday that there are also confirmed start dates for 37 candidates, 20 practitioners and 17 senior practitioners between now and April. As well as the 29 that Janet mentioned, there is what I have just said. Thank you very much for that additional information. Natalie, go back to your question. The answers are very informative, so I appreciate that. That is just more of a general question. It follows an issue that I raised last week at last week's meeting as well. Obviously, the legislation is, as always, full of jargon, and it is not very easy to read. I am just once in confirmation from the minister that there will be guidance and eligibility criteria that will be simple and easy for people to understand. Obviously, that relates to the CDP and the CDP. Absolutely. In our communications with stakeholders and applicants, there will be significant understandable but also accessible correspondence. Janet, I do not know if you want to add anything further to that. I do not have anything further to add to that point. That is great. Thank you very much for that, Natalie. I am going to bring my colleague Eveline Tweedyn, who will speak to both theme 5 and 6, and then, after that, Jeremy Balfour will come back in as well to speak to theme 6. I will learn over to you. Thank you, convener, and congratulations on your new post. I would like to wish Neil Gray all the best as a minister. I am sure that he will be absolutely great. I am very excited about ADP and it has been a long road since 2018. I think that the Scottish Government has not done an absolute power of work. As we have heard from people with lived experience, that is going to be an absolute game changer. My first question is about the financial impact of the changes. How do you square the two areas of keeping an eye on rising costs that need paid for, alongside the duty to encourage take-up and promoting that benefit? I think that some of the important points, in fact, to Eveline Tweedyn for her are important words around the efficient moment that we are at at this point with the launch of adult disability payment. On the question about how we keep an eye on the rising costs that they paid for, alongside the duty to encourage take-up and promoting that and other benefits, I am absolutely clear that social security is a human right. Therefore, we are committed to ensuring that everyone who is entitled to support in our system is able to receive it. Our benefit take-up strategies detail how we will encourage and support people to overcome barriers to accessing support. Of course, we have a duty to promote take-up regardless of how much is being spent on adult disability payment, and that is a duty to promote take-up that is in the 2018 act. Indeed, many of the improvements that we are making to the application decision making process are intended to remove barriers to applying for disability payment benefits that currently exist in the system. We will be promoting, we will be making it more accessible, we will be making it more straightforward, and we will be helping people on their journey through our advocacy service and through our local delivery team. It is a real shift in consciousness from the approach from the Department of Work and Pensions and some of the experiences that people have had in terms of the fact that clothing benefits have attracted this completely unjust and unethical stigma that we all need to now knock away. We want to remove stigma, we want to promote take-up and we want to encourage people to get the support that they need, because a social security system that is there to support people and is accessible and delivering is good not just for the person who is receiving the awards that they are entitled to, but it is also good for a wider society as a whole as we create a wider society together and also in terms of distribution in the economy and the fiscal impact that that can have and the multiplier effect that that can have on the economy. That is not the most important thing, the most important thing is that people get the support that they are entitled to and we are very committed and I hope that you feel that from what I have said, to encouraging people and helping people to get that support. Thank you minister, I absolutely do. There is a range of new support available to people applying for disability benefits, including short-term assistance and advocacy service. What are the costs of those and do you think that that is a good use of resources to come from the Scottish Government budget? Yes, absolutely. They are a good use of resources because they will be there to help people throughout their journey and there was strong demand in the process of the 2018 act, the bill going through the Parliament in 2016-17 and then the passing of the 2018 act for those initiatives to be introduced. They are an investment in the people of Scotland and they are a result of extensive consultation with people with experience of the social security system now and disabled people's organisations and experts. I am confident that these changes will result in a significantly better experience for people who are applying for and receiving added disability payment. Reflective, again, of my point that I made earlier, which is important that social security is a human right and that we want to deliver it within the principles that we are committed to of dignity and fairness. Why have you chosen the same council areas for the pilot as a CDP and what lessons have been learnt from the roll-out of the CDP? We have selected the areas for the first pilot that are similar to the child disability payment because they represent a mixture of urban and rural geography. Using the same local authorities for phase 1 of the pilot for adult disability payment enables us to build on the working relationships and constructive engagement that we have had with Gersen, Carrots, Dundee City and Wishnell's local authorities. I should put on the record today that we are incredibly grateful for all the engagement that we have with local authorities, health boards and others on the delivery of adult disability payment and all of our benefits. After phase 1 of course, adult disability payment could significantly more local authority areas through the pilot phases. We have created the programme in a way that considers geographical spread and builds into our commitment to delivering things in a safe and secure way and making sure that we continue to build up the system up so that when the roll-out happens at the end of August, we have undertaken a significant amount of local authorities being engaged in the system already and we are in a strong position to deliver the service nationally. Thank you very much for that minister. Evelin, is that you finished or do you have? Yes, that is very interesting. That is great. Can we move on now to question from Jeremy Balfour on this topic? Thank you, convener. Just a fairly brief question, minister. Have I outlined previously that there will be a track review for this and the first one will start later this year? When will you expect that first track in regard to the mobility issue to report to you, Scottish Government? Are you going to sit on my timetable and can you outline that for today? I am happy to come back to the committee. I have future juncture, I should say, to talk about the review more generally, and I think that it will be helpful. I am certainly keen to give that undertaking today. As I said in a previous answer, the planning and scoping work is already under way for the first stage of the review and I will provide a further update as soon as possible in due course to both the committee and the Parliament. I will help the minister to know when the review will take and when that will fall back to you and to the Parliament. Thank you very much for your question, Jeremy, and your answer. I am sorry if everybody can hear that there is a dog barking outside the door. That is translating through blue jeans or not. Do we have any other further members who wish to come in at this juncture? I am not seeing any indications if it is okay. I myself will put a question to you, minister. For me, it is clear that the regulations will hold a new benefit for disabled adults, which is of course a major change in social security in Scotland, but it is also a change in how people will be treated. As somebody who has a personal and professional experience of the benefit system, that is really important. I ask the minister to round up this session by explaining to the committee how you will measure success or failure of the benefit and how you will ensure that disabled people in receipt of the benefits themselves will be involved in that valuation, because I think that that is really important. First of all, I think that it is such a significant moment in terms of the fact that we are delivering in a way that will be as straightforward as possible, that we will always start from a position of trust, that people will be able to choose how they apply in the channel that best meets their needs, that we will be funding the independent advocacy service, that there will be no DWP assessments, and there will not be functional DWP style assessments, and there will not be any functional examinations. The fact that we will only need to collect one piece of supporting information when making a decision, a formal piece of information, and that they will miss to collect that will be on social security Scotland to do so on people's behalf, that we will be giving consideration to all social security Scotland information, including clients, family, carers, friends, and that we will, as has been emphasised through our discussion, apply the eligibility criteria fairly and consistently to get more decisions right first time that we will take full account of people's needs and fluctuating conditions, and that people challenging an adult disability decision will be able to access short term assistance when challenging a decision. Of course, we will fast track applications from people with a terminal illness. There is so much that we are doing that we should be positive about collectively. Of course, as we have discussed today, we will, as the process of delivery of adult disability payment combined with the case transfer process, as that progresses, we will also think collectively through the review and through our discussion about what constructive changes we can make over and above those significant improvements. The evaluation programme will provide assessments on the operation of key aspects of the delivery of the new benefits. Those include new procedures applicable to adult disability payment as they unfold, including the provision of supporting information, special rules for terminal illness, client consultations, a case transfer from UK benefits and decision-making processes. The first of those thematic evaluations is an assessment of the operation of provision of supporting information for benefit decisions drawing on the experience of child disability payment, which will be commissioned later this year. Further aspects of evaluation might require more evidence from adult disability payment, in particular, such as consultation, terminal illness rules and award duration, which require the case flow to build up over time and the consequences to be emerging. We will, of course, be considerate of that. The engagement of stakeholders is so important and has been up to this point. We invite academic and third sector organisations to our annual social security evaluation forum to discuss our approaches to evaluating benefits. We will continue to engage with our stakeholders appropriately and meaningfully. As I have said throughout the process of our considerations today, we deeply value the input of our stakeholders, not just in considering those regulations before us but through the whole process of establishing our new social security system in Scotland, which is and will continue to make a significant and meaningful difference for people in our communities all across the country. I understand that my colleague Miles Briggs has further two questions to come in before we move to the formal debate on the motion. Miles, go over to yourself. Thank you, convener. I just have two questions on the back of the letter that you sent to the committee yesterday with regard to the recruitment around practitioners. We have discussed this previously with regard to the development of hubs and where people will be located to work. If you could update the committee on that. In some of the discussions that I had with yourself previously with regard to local authorities and potential to create hubs where people could go access those individuals or for them to be actually helping people in their homes as we see the lifting of pandemic regulations around that. Just wondering where the Government was on the development of potential hubs for those practitioners. Just for clarity, I am presuming that Mr Briggs is talking about local delivery teams, which are active now, and they are operating in community hubs and undertaking with consideration the restrictions around the pandemic in recent weeks and months. I have been undertaking face-to-face assistance with clients already for CDP and I stand ready to do that for ADP. I am going to bring Janet Richardson in a moment from an agency perspective, but I just emphasise that that service is up and running already in terms of our local delivery team. Janet, could you elaborate further, please? Thank you minister, and yes, thank you for the question. This is around the practitioners rather than the local delivery teams. On the Scottish Government's view on hubs, I cannot comment on that, but what I can tell you is what we are looking to do for the practitioners. As we have said all along, we do not necessarily envisage a large proportion of our clients needing a face-to-face interaction with practitioners. If they choose to do that, or we feel that it is necessary, then we cannot offer that. By and large, we feel that they will be there as an advisory capacity, but they will be within that local vicinity. The minister has already talked about that our local delivery teams are based in hubs and offices within our local authorities, so what we are looking at is whether there are opportunities for practitioners to be in those premises as well. It might not always be appropriate, but absolutely that is something that we can do. If a face-to-face is needed, we will look at that. We are also looking at if it is necessary that that could be done in the client's home if that is their choice. We do think that those appointments in that way will be a few and far between compared to the current process. That is helpful. Last time we discussed that, it was not necessarily clear if they would be located within the hubs. I welcome any additional information that you could provide us with as and when that develops. I wanted to ask about the financial projections. The information that the committee has given, and specifically some of the work that the Scottish Fiscal Commission has been doing around updating potential spend around ADP, suggested that in 2026 we would see a rise to £567 million. The new budget looks towards £38 million, so I wonder if there are any updated figures given that we will be debating the budget this afternoon for stage 1 and where the current financial projections currently stand. The financial projections that the Scottish Fiscal Commission recently published are the projections that we are considering collectively. As I mentioned earlier, our commitment to social security as a human right and our commitment to the benefits for delivering will mean that through the forthcoming resource spending review we will be considering funding and spending forecasts more generally as we continue to deliver plans on targeted public spending to where it delivers the greatest benefit. Of course, our commitment to social security delivery is a key part of that. As I stated in an earlier answer, our commitment to delivering to the people who are entitled to benefits is absolutely clear. The finances will be made available in order to make sure that we meet that commitment to people. That is absolutely clear. I say this as a statement of fact and regret. There is a significant amount of resource that the Scottish Government has to spend directly mitigating the impact of UK Government policies, particularly through discretionary housing payments but also through the Scottish Welfare Fund. Of course, that totaled £140 million in the financial year 2021-22. I say that as a reflective point of, it would be much better if we could spend that resource elsewhere rather than having to mitigate bad policy decisions from the UK government. I will try not to get into a debate over policy decisions by the Scottish Government at this light stage in the committee meeting. I hand back to you. I do not have any further indications of anybody wishing to speak at this point, so we will move on to agenda item 4, which is the formal debate on the motion. I remind committee that only members and the minister may take part in the formal debate. I invite the minister to move motion S6M-02604 that the Social Justice and Social Security Committee recommends that the disability assistance for working-age people, Scotland regulations 2020-22, be approved. Do any members wish to speak in the debate on the motion? Please type R in the chat and box if you want to come in. My doorbell goes. What would you believe that? What can you do when that happens in your live to everybody who is watching? I have three people who have indicated that they would like to speak, so I am going to bring Pam Duncan-Glancy in first, then Evelyn Tweed and then Jeremy Balfour. Pam Duncan-Glancy, please. It is over to you. Thank you, convener. Too many disabled people are in poverty. Thousands have spent blood, sweat and tears trying to get the support that they need to live their life, only to be told that they don't qualify for that or that support is being cut. The regulations here today could have changed that. We could have consigned to history degrading and arbitrary measures like the 20m and 50% rules. We could have developed indicators that reflect the real experience of disabled people and the support that they need. We could have been voting on rates of payment that reflect the real cost of living for disabled people, but, convener, minister, we are not and I cannot mask my disappointment. None of the regulations in front of us change who is eligible or, for how much, they don't address problems with the descriptors. They replicate the PIP rules, most disappointingly of all. They miss the opportunity that we have to recast the rules on something that could properly have addressed disabled people's poverty. In 2017, in response to Scottish Labour's ask for assurances that the new system would be ambitious and that we would not have the same effects as the PIP rules, the then cabinet secretary replied that the Scottish Government does not intend to replicate the UK Government legislation in our social security, as will be clear from our actions. Five years later, we are asked to vote for underwhelming rules and trust that something better is coming again. Disabled people have already waited years on a promise that those regulations do not deliver. Every day they wait as a day we all lose out on their potential because poverty holds people back. Despite our disappointment, because of the need to not delay this further, Scottish Labour will vote for the regulations today. However, I would like the record to show that we are voting for the regulations because disabled people have waited long enough and so they must proceed. We believe that the current PIP system is so appalling that we will not block an attempt however unimaginative or unambitious. We will make sure that the promises that this Government made to disabled people in 2017 will not be broken or delayed a minute longer. Thank you, convener. As I said in my earlier remarks, I am very excited about the introduction of ADP. The Scottish Government has done a power of work in preparation for this, and we have heard from stakeholders and from those with lived experience that this is to be welcomed. I very much hope that we will achieve cross-party support today for ADP. Thank you very much for that, Evelyn. Over to you, Jeremy Balfour and then Maria McNair. Thank you, convener. As someone who has walked this journey for five years, I will be voting for amendments, but I will be voting with them with a heavy heart. Unlike Evelyn Tweed, I see no excitement in these regulations today. It is interesting that both members of the committee who are actually on PIP and who have disabilities are voting with them with a heavy heart, and perhaps that says a lot about who we are today. The disability community are accepting this because there is nothing else on offer. This is not what we were offered by the Scottish Government five years ago. I and Ben Macpherson, when our minister sat on this committee, we heard from cabinet secretaries, we heard from civil servants, we heard from stakeholders that we wanted a system that was radically different from what we are having today. We are not addressing fundamental issues such as mobility. We are not addressing people who have variable conditions such as MS, epilepsy, who are still not going to get an award. We may be told no in a nicer way, but we are still going to be said no. This is a lost opportunity for this Parliament and for this country. We started five years ago with a blank piece of paper, an opportunity to design something that would have helped those with disabilities to get the benefits that we need and deserve. In fact, that is what we were promised by the Scottish Government. All that we have done today is paced across what we have had for many years. I hope that the cabinet secretary and Mr Macpherson will hear what people are saying—maybe not in public committees but in private—about the regulations. We have taken five years to get to this point. I do not blame, particularly, the new agency. I think that the Scottish Government has dragged this process out and I have taken far too long. I will vote for them because there is nothing else on offer, and we do not want to delay what has happened. However, I do so with no excitement or heavy heart and I do hope that any review will be quick and speedy and will implement the changes that people in Scotland with disability deserve. I thank you very much for your contribution, Jeremy. I will now move to Mairi McNears for hers. Thank you, convener. I do not agree with Mr Balfour's comments, but I think that those regulations are a key point in the biggest transfer of social security powers in our nation's history. They are key to giving the disabled people the dignity and respect of the long-denied by the Westminster system. The approach that is set out makes a safe and secure transport fair a priority. That is how it should be, and that is what the consultation has asked for. It allows us to make changes, a more compassionate, generous approach to claiming to a terminal illness, the introduction of short-term assistance, not providing any other part of the UK, and this is recognition of the financial hardship experience in real life but many of our constituents. More time to challenge decisions and assistance to get the best possible information to aid decisions, and to add an ending to the use of the private sector assessments that cause great misery to disabled people claiming what they were due to. Those are just a few examples of what we have achieved in a short term. An independent review helped us to guide us to further important change, so I think that we should just agree the recommendations, because they take a massive step forward to providing a social security system that has been long overdue. Before I hand back to the minister for his right to reply in winding up, I would like to state that, as a disabled adult and somebody who has self-excluded from the benefits process due to being somebody who has represented people at tribunals in my professional life, I do believe that those regulations are set out. I would speak to those people who, like me, have self-excluded and perhaps will see them applying to Social Security Scotland for adult disability payment. Minister, can you come back to yourself for a right of reply before we move to the vote on the motion? Thank you, convener, and thank you to all members for their summing up remarks. I listen attentively with respect and good faith to all the points that have been made, and I am grateful for and very much welcome the cross-party support. I appreciate the points that have been made by the Opposition parties. I acknowledge their determination to see further change in the way that they wish to see it. As I respect that, I would ask them to respect that as well. We are in a situation right now where we are in a hybrid system and we are in a situation in which we are under two very important work streams of launching new benefits and undertaking case transfer. In that process, we have to make sure that we do not create a two-tier system. We have to make sure that we undertake safe and secure delivery, and we have to make sure that we have passporting agreements in place with the Department of Work and Work. As I ask them to respect the reality of the situation in the hearing now, I also ask that I appreciate their wish to see further change, but there should be acknowledgement of the changes that have been made. The changes that have been made to make sure that we apply the right reliability criteria in a consistent and proper way in each case and the changes that are being made to make sure that the application process is more accessible and has a better experience for people. The changes that we have made around terminal illness, the changes that we have made around the assessment process in terms of there being no private sector involvement, there being no DWP-style assessments and there being no functional examinations, and there are other changes that I have laid out in the course of today's session. This is a really important moment in the development of devolution in the delivery of our new source security system. Together, by passing those regulations, we are taking an important step collectively for the benefit of all of our constituents and also in creating a system that is strong, robust, passionate and organised and structured in order to deliver for people in our communities in the years ahead, but also with a strong foundation for their delivery in the years and decades to come. I am grateful for colleagues for vindicating their support for the regulations and I look forward to working with them as we progress into the next phase of delivering adult disability payment and continuing to build our social security system here in Scotland. Thank you very much minister. That concludes the debate and I will now put the question on the motion. The question is that motion S6M-02604 be approved. Are we all agreed? Yes, we are all agreed. Thank you. The motion is therefore approved. I invite the committee to agree that the clerks and I will produce a short factual report of the committee's decision and arrange to have it published as soon as possible. Are we agreed on that? Thank you very much. We are now going to move on to agenda item number 5, which is theordinate legislation. I will now move on to the debate on the motion for the information sharing regulations that are already discussed. I now invite the minister to move the motion S6M-02603 and that the Social Justice and Social Security Committee recommends that the Social Security Information Share in Scotland amendment regulations 2022 be approved. Thank you very much. Do any members wish to speak in the debate on the motion? Please type R in the chat box if you wish to come in. I will give it just a wee moment. I am not seeing anybody want to come in. Minister, do you feel you need to wind up on this at all, respect to it? In the interest of time, I will just wish to proceed to the voting process. Okay, great. I will now put the question on the motion. The question is that the motion S6M-02603 be approved. Are we all agreed? I am seeing everybody's agreed. Thank you very much. The motion is therefore approved. I invite the committee again to agree that the clerks and I will include consideration of this instrument for a short factual report. Is that agreed? Thank you very much. Thank you minister for attending today with your officials. We are now going to consider agenda item number 6, which will consider a negative SSI. Members are invited to consider the social security period for redetermination requests, miscellaneous amendments, Scotland regulations 2021. Backgrounds of the regulations are outlined in paper 4. Do any members have any comments that they would like to raise in relation to those regulations? If you do, please put an R in the chat or indicate. I am not seeing any indication, so are members content to note the instrument? Yes, that is great. Thank you very much. That concludes this morning's meeting. At our next meeting on 3 February, we will be taking evidence on refugees in asylum as part of our work to explore the breadth of the committee's remit and establish key priorities for this session. I look forward to that. I now close this meeting.