 Good morning, everyone, or good evening. Welcome to the last day of the Zero Emissions Solution Conference in the sidelines COP26. First of all, I'd like to thank the SDSN and organisers of this conference, which is proving to be a huge success. We are delighted that you have all joined us here today. This important panel exploring solutions to bridge oceans and climate action. I'm Sally Baish, the Climate Works Australia and Monash University, and I have the pleasure of moderating this session. Before we start, I'd like to acknowledge and pay respects to the traditional traditional owners and elders past and present, the Wurundjeri people of the Kulin Nation, from where I am speaking to you today. Today's sessions all revolve around the topic of nature. This is the first session of the day, and it's concerned with priorities in ocean climate inclusion. After many years at the periphery, the Climate Talks in 2019 saw the oceans for the first time ever mentioned in the UNFCCC Output Document. This led to it being termed the blue cop and to the convening of a dialogue on oceans and climate change under one of the subsets. We are here today as part of building momentum for the inclusion of oceans in the climate regime. For too long, oceans has been marginalised, considered a buffer to climate change, and inadequate recognition has been paid to the grave impacts that have been caused by the high level of heat and CO2 absorption by the oceans. Climate change has altered the ocean chemistry, biology, and had critical impacts upon those who live near and rely upon the ocean for their livelihoods. Also lacking has been an understanding of substantial mitigation opportunities offered by maritime industries and ocean technologies and ecosystems. Today, we're talking the three expert panellists across this wide area about how we can raise ongoing ocean ambition and turn it from an afterthought to a centrepiece of the climate talks. Before I introduce our first speaker, a point of housekeeping. We welcome questions today. Please submit these in the Q&A area and we'll get to as many of them as we can. And now we turn to our first speaker. Russell Reichert has played a leading role in Australia and overseas in marine science, management and conservation, for which he was recognised with an order of Australia several years ago. He is currently the Australian Sherpa, representing the Prime Minister to the high level panel for a sustainable oceans economy, a group of 14 nations and growing, which has been vocal about the role of oceans as not a victim, but as a climate solution. Russell is also a current serving member of the Australian Advisory Climate Change Authority. Prior to this, he had roles leading both the Institute of Marine Science and the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority. And with that, I hand over to Russell. Well, thank you very much, Sally. And the organisers, it's the Sustainable Development Network. It's a terrific privilege to speak to you all. And you can see in my background, I love the Great Barrier Reef. I love the ocean. And this is where I did my graduate studies some 40 years ago. And it remains close to my heart, but not as close as the saltwater people of Australia and the traditional owners. I want to pay my respects to the Ugambi people on whose country I'm talking to you from. The Australian indigenous traditional owners are the oldest continuous living culture on earth. And so we learn so much from their traditional knowledge. But on the issue of zero emissions, I'd like to share my screen right now and just talk you through some issues which are how will what is it we have to do? How do we have to think about the ocean to achieve zero emissions? And I'll do that through the lens of the high level panel for a sustainable ocean economy. And which is hopefully you can now see me see my opening slide. It is about solutions for transformational change. And I'll be referring to the sustainable ocean economy throughout. This is a quick reminder from the organizers, the Zero Emissions Sustainability Conference have set out these goals. How do we achieve it? What are the key technology pathways, innovative solutions for a low emissions future? And what about the partnerships with all the aspects of our society? And I'll touch on these. Well, look, the I have to say the ocean health is off track, is if Peter Thompson, who's a member of our Sherpa Group, he's the UN Secretary General's envoy says repeatedly that we're actually losing the battle right now to achieve the SDGs. And I won't dwell too much on this because I'm sure those of you watching feel that strongly as well. Do we have significant biodiversity declines? We will lose food yield if we continue overfishing. And we are increasing plastic and an alarming rate as pollution. And I'd be wrong not to mention acidification and global warming will radically alter the ocean ecosystems. And I know that personally having grown up on the Great Barrier Reef, it is in extreme danger. It's at risk. And so we need to reverse this. What can a healthy ocean give us? It can give us a lot more food. These are all statistics from our 250 scientific experts led by Jane Lechenco and Peter Horgan. And also there's been a lot of these are underpinned by quite quite a lot of scientific research. But we can we can produce a lot more renewable energy. We can reduce greenhouse gases. We can actually provide 20% of the reductions needed to achieve the 1.5 can come from ocean energy. A lot of employment and a lot of benefits to investors as well. And I'll include some links in this slide so that I'm happy to share through the organizers if you were to save you taking a lot of notes. And I refer you to the oceanpanel.org website on these slides as a good reference. Now the panel the panel is shown here and it's a very diverse group from we have developing countries, less developed countries, we've got Africa, America's, Indo-Pacific. And and recently, as in this week, the president of the United States announced that the USA will join. France has made an announcement some months ago and still to be confirmed and possibly others will join the 13 first members. Our Prime Minister is proud to be a member of the panel. And it gives us our focus tends to be on our region, the Indo-Pacific and our northern neighbors, especially Indonesia. It's great to have Mubarak here to speak about his experiences. So it's it's and the thing to tell you is it's not a UN body, it's personal membership of these leaders. They're passionately committed to the mission, which is to essentially create a sustainable ocean economy where there is effective protection, sustainable production, and equitable prosperity where they go together. We need all three for people for nature and the economy. There's a great publication. I'm very proud to have been involved with my colleagues and to support our leaders to produce the transformations for a sustainable ocean economy. And Mubarak, I work closely with Indonesian fisheries colleagues on this and also the Blue Carbon Group you'll be speaking about. This document is the vision and it also talks about the actions. How will we get there? It addresses that the fact that we cannot have a sustainable ocean economy without a healthy ocean. It it's a necessary precondition. Wealth is important and it needs to be equitable wealth. We can grow our industries and we need to respect the rights of all people through equitable benefits. Capital is important. Underpinning it and these five pillars stand on ocean knowledge. We need evidence. We need to be science driven. We need innovation. We need to capture the benefits of where our new science can help us deliver the goals. I want to talk to you about that was the first phase of the panel to produce that transformations report. Now we're talking about phase two of the panel. This phase will conclude at the UN Ocean Conference mid next year and phase two is already being discussed amongst my colleagues the Sherpas with looking at what actions can we take? How can we encourage different groups and partners just as the initial slide from the Zero Emissions Sustainability organisers mentioned. No single sector, no single part of our community, whether it's government, industry, not-for-profit, philanthropy, indigenous society as a whole in different ways can play a role. Here are 10 action coalitions that are already in the process of either forming. Some are quite mature and these are some very driven by private sector like ocean renewable energy was announced before the transformations document and it's a large coalition of many billions of dollars of investment in offshore wind particularly in different parts of the world. The International Chamber of Shipping announced that its members which represent 80 percent, 80 percent of all shipping and transport in their membership are committed now to a process of decarbonisation and rapid transformation away from fossil fuels. Other of these efforts are not so visible to everybody like the Global Ocean Accounting Program led with Canada and Australia but it's about accounting for nature. It's about how do we put the proper benefits and wealth that comes from ecosystem services to people. So I've just given you some examples. There's others tourism, blue finance, blue carbon and so on so we can talk more about those perhaps later. I do want to mention Australia is particularly all of my scientific colleagues and the indigenous people and the state governments are very passionate about the protecting and restoring our blue carbon ecosystems. This is just a personal note about Australia. These figures are now out of date. The three billion tonne of carbon is probably a gross underestimate. We have very large mangrove areas still intact and some areas to be restored, tidal marshes and I heard this week that seagrasses five to nine million hectares, the seagrass in the Great Barrier Reef World Heritage Area is I think 11% of the world seagrass. It's got extensive continental shelf covered in seagrass. So Australia from where I come from is passionate about blue carbon and we're working, I'm working on that now. So look for giving it 100% is a tagline from the panel and it was really a way of saying in a few words we all not just the panel members but all countries with economic zones should be working hard to look after the ocean and properly manage it. If all of the members this is before the US joined that would represent 30% of the world's economic zones and we also the ocean panel also supports the 30% by 2030 protection. Look that's I think I've come to the end of my comments. I did want to mention I'm seeing if the slide is missed in my this one here. I think I skipped past this one. This is the how. How do you do coastal restoration and aquaculture? How can you have renewable energy and fuel food production? The thinking behind this is that individual sectors will make advances like the Blue Economy Cooperative Research Centre in Southern Australia by joining sectors. So instead of and I've heard Sally your colleagues in Climate Works talk about this. We need to set bold ambition for rapid change and if you say if you're a little bit overweight that you're going to lose 500 grams a year you'll never get there in your if you say you're going to lose 10 kilos next in five months you will. That's an example I got from Climate Works but you need to set ambitious goals that's what drives innovation and even better as my colleagues in systemic Martin Stushtay said if you can combine multiple sectors you get transformational. It's not incremental change it's exponential and so food production with renewable energy people are working on that everywhere in different ocean basins in Tasmania they're looking at using offshore production of salmon for instance fueled by green energy to process with artificial intelligence as well. There's other examples there cheaper fuel green fuel low-cub fuel green ports hydrogen hubs renewable energy and recycling and also finance and equity. These are just some examples where sectors can work together to get a step change to to get us to zero emissions. I think I'll stop there Sally thank you very much stop sharing my screen. Great thank you thank you that was incredibly interesting and it's really nice to hear about the second phase of the panel and that it's going ahead stronger than ever before. We're going to hold questions to the end and we're going to go across to our second speaker now and it is my great pleasure to introduce Janine Phelpsen today. Janine is an ambassador of Belize and an advisor to the Alliance of Small Island States and the Caribbean community on climate and ocean matters. For over 20 years she has been a leading voice for small island developing states in key negotiations including the 2030 Agenda for Sustainable Development, the Paris Agreement and the Intergovernmental Conference for a new high seas treaty on marine biological diversity. Janine served as an expert on and facilitated for several UN bodies in the fields of human rights international law and climate change and was recently appointed a member of the board of the Green Climate Fund. She's concurrently an enterprise fellow with the Melbourne Sustainable Society Institute where she's focused on integrated approaches to global policy making on climate oceans and sustainable development. Thanks Janine. Thank you very much Sally and I hope you're able to hear me I am at the COP in Glasgow and it is quite an active space notwithstanding the contacts within which we're meeting. It's a pleasure to follow Russell as well I'm from Belize as you mentioned and Belize also has a barrier reef which is part of the world heritage system of UNESCO and we're very proud of it but it is a reef that is under threat under siege as my prime minister recently stated to the COP because of climate change and there's no question about it but let's get to the issue of the ocean climate nexus as far as I'm concerned that case has been filed it's accepted that ocean action is climate action what needs to be the point of focus now is operationalization and operationalization in terms of the support that would be needed for that ocean action to be maximized be optimized in order to support climate solutions. We know and as Russell just pointed out ocean action can have both mitigation it can also have adaptation co-benefits because there are so many people who already depend on marine and coastal services and in the billions and that is part of those people's livelihood there's also an integral part of the ocean to national identity so Russell spoke about First Nation people in the Caribbean and the Pacific the ocean the marine identity is very strong it's part of who we are it's our national identity so these are important aspects that also need to be taken account when we're talking about ocean action as climate action. Climate action isn't just about environment it's about people and I want to take the point of the perspective of the small island development states who are indeed pioneers of climate solutions in oceans in ecosystem-based approaches for climate and we've been doing this for years and it's not just because of the Paris Agreement it's not just because of the UNCCC the United Nations Framework Convention that we are doing climate solutions or taking climate solutions it's just part of what we need to do in order to adapt and ensure that our people have sustainable livelihoods but since we talk about Paris let's talk about what's happened in there and I want to mention what the lease has been doing in its own climate plan so it's submitted a new nationally determined contribution which significantly expands coverage of not just our forests but also our marine ecosystem and coastal areas this is very important and it's consistent with one of major announcements that was recently made where Belize launched the largest blue bond initiative at a value of something to of in order of 360 million dollars it's the largest blue bond initiative after since Seychelles another small island development state launched the first blue bond initiative here again is that leadership the pioneering leadership of small island development states so as part of that initiative Belize will expand its marine protected areas it's currently 50 percent of our territory the 30 percent by 2026 so we're we've blown past that 30 by 30 and I would like to say that that's also the case in the Seychelles they've already gone 30 by 30 and they're looking even to go beyond that so in the case of small island development states we have already integrated ocean action as part of our climate action and conservation I think that's really a point that I want to also hone in on conservation as part of climate action it's very significant in our case and it's really important also to bring that point out because it also demonstrates how integral small island development states are to the overall global climate response and and it gets to this other part that I want to address which is these are national efforts these were done under depth of climate swap arrangement in the case of Belize and in the case of of the Seychelles so they're essentially domestic efforts to mobilize finance and in this case it's not just mobilization of finances creating fiscal space because many need to be aware that small island development states are experiencing very high depth to GDP ratio for instance in the case of Belize we're double the threshold of what would be considered sustainability that sustainability would be considered for that sustainability and and and one would think well why is that it's been shown in reports after reports including most recently by the OECD that small island development states like other vulnerable countries have to pay for the climate action we are being given loans for us to carry out responses to something that we didn't create because when you put all the small island development states together 44 countries we contribute less than a percentage of global greenhouse gas emissions in the caribbean 14 caribbean members members of the caribbean community less than 0.2 percent 0.02 percent of climate change greenhouse gas emissions so what needs to happen is that there needs to be an international support mechanism for small island development states who want to do these ultra-nation so you look at the climate funds and what their strategic approaches are i'm talking about the green climate fund and it's not significantly capitalized and it's also overstretched but that one is an area where we could tap into currently we can look beyond the climate regime we could look to the green the global environment facility which also covers part of the climate regime but it covers as well the other environmental agreements and they're currently going through a replenishment process and it would be a tremendous boon who's to ocean action if the the pie the piece of the pie that addresses ocean could be extended or expanded to address these areas. I think i also want to address the importance of ensuring that we're not once again repeating the mistakes of the past and just making finance available at a cost to small island development states so you know grant-based financing public climate financing is really important yes we speak a lot about the private sector but when you think of small island development states with this economies of scale with already high risk profiles because we are highly vulnerable to climate change it's not easy to tap into the private sector so we need to ensure that the channel and the sources of funding still go back to the public sources of financing and a final point because we have others on the panel looking beyond national jurisdiction so the ocean covers 70 percent of the earth surface but a lot of that is actually in areas beyond national jurisdiction the high seas and if we did nothing about that then we effectively could write ourselves off the planet because the oceans are life the ocean is a life support system the high seas is essentially carrying all that carbon all the that's in the air it's serving as a sink it also helps with or weather circulation patterns of the oceans important to that Russell pointed to all the different aspects of you know what we gain from from a healthy ocean but we can't actually do that if we leave out the areas beyond national jurisdiction so there's a new treaty that's being negotiated the high seas treaty on marine biodiversity has a very long name we we've condensed it to bbng but too many acronyms in every process so let's call it the high seas treaty for now that's being negotiated and i think it's really important that we consider now how a treaty of that major that deals with an area that belongs to no one and belongs to everyone how we can envision a freemer that will accelerate and a collective response with adequate collective support and i'll end it at that thank you very much Alan thank you for that it was um really interesting and it's um heartening to hear about Belize's blue bond because the first one from seychelles has been a bit of time that has passed so that growing a critical mass of countries that have successfully engaged for that process is really fabulous thing to hear is happening um i'm going to move on because i know janine has to leave on the next hour um and introduce our final speaker for today um Mooraka Aqmad is Indonesian country director of conservation strategy fund um SF for those who don't know builds a capacity of the community of change makers both inside and outside of government agencies in policy analysis and design from sustainability economics and governance mabarak holds a phd in natural resources and environmental economics and teaches at both the faculty of economics and the school of environment in the university of indonesia prior to joining CSM mabarak worked as a senior environment economist with the world bank and jointly led the strategy working group at indonesia's red plus task force he's also worked with the wwf the indonesia equal labelling institute and served as a member of the world economic forums council on ecosystem and biodiversity all whilst also on the editorial board of elsa viz journal of forest policy and economics we are thrilled that he has the time for us today because there's an incredibly busy agenda that you have and look forward to hearing from another thank you thank you salio for the introductions good morning good afternoon good evening everyone wherever you are thanks for the organizer for bringing me into this panel and to share a few things about what i think is important as a as a way to to advance the agenda of the adoption of ocean climate actions into the uh at the national as well as at the country a lot so i i would like to share my slides in here this goes to the very end i don't know why okay let's see okay so um um i'm my my presentation is structured into a very simple the first one is the some backgrounds uh on at the international stage as well as at the indonesian stage and then how does it relate to the potential um uh needed decisions uh be it at the uh unfcc corp as well as at the country level in this case of course indonesia i'm using indonesia situations as a way to to try to to put things on the table that can perhaps be relevant not just for indonesia but also for other countries in the unfcc unfcc community so uh i'm sure everyone uh is aware about this report this is a report on ocean and creosphere in a changing climate this is the the most recent report on the impact of ocean climate change uh to to the ecosystem and and and the the next level of impacts uh through that so i'm citing here one uh graphs from that report in which it shows the potential benefits uh if mitigation is taking place uh uh between now into and into the future so this is the future that we're putting here is two hundred uh two thousand fifty as well as two thousand uh one hundred um basically in terms of uh warming impacts uh the reports uh highlight some of the very important uh impact on on the ecosystem and on the human system livelihood livelihood system the first one is the of course the the impact on the marine and coastal ecosystem itself there will be acidifications uh changing in the ocean dynamics about the the upwelling and all the the technical stuff and those all impacts the biodiversity as well as the uh the stability of the climate and then that could create some some uh potential problems with the climate situation in which there will be more increasing there will be increasing incidence of storms uh upsurging of of waves and things like that and of course sea level rise everybody knows about that and the small countries uh are very nervous about being submerged by the end of the century and then the disasters related to this uh this ocean changing climate as well as ecosystem is also uh in front of our eyes and then the last one uh mentioned there quite significantly is the the impact on the food system uh with the ocean dynamic changing there will be change in the productivity of the oceans in terms in terms of food just food productions as other thing and then uh of course then the the report leads to the issue of mediation and adaptation as the as consequences that uh each country should take if we are to live uh with the with the we still want to live in the future whether we would like to reduce the the impact by the mitigations or or on the other side is trying to live uh uh and and adopt to the uh changing uh risk and um and then at the uh this is from other reports actually uh here we also learned that uh from a lot of scientific uh literature already that we know that the the if you compare the ecosystem uh between boreal, temporary, tropical, upland forest and the mangrove in the in the Pacific it shows here uh the the the capacity of the mangrove in in saving in storage in storing the carbon so this is just an illustrative of why this the why the mitigations as well as adaptation would be it would be needed so moving on to Indonesia as a background as a background um i'm putting here uh pictures that sort of represent Indonesia blue carbon ecosystem in which we have uh seaweed meadows we have coastal wetlands we have uh mangroves we have uh seaweed uh um seaweed um meadow uh this is seaweed uh for for food uh for human food the one on the right hand corner the one on the left hand corner is the uh the one that dugong uh eating and the uh one at the bottom right corner is the uh the corals uh with the school of fish uh consumption fish uh in in the place so these are part of the blue carbon ecosystem in Indonesia's marine environment concept context and if you look into statistics a bit deeper uh related to the blue carbon i guess everybody knows that we have lost lost lost a lot of our mangrove forest and also corals but by 2015 we still have more than three million hectares of mangrove this is the largest mangrove ecosystem in the world and then more than 300 uh thousand hectares of sea grass meadows um we also have lots of coastal wetlands um i don't have the information with me i think this is not very well active uh map yet and then we also have natural and cultured seaweed areas we have coral reefs um uh i think these numbers are around but uh not many uh used in not so much used in the uh so far in the climate discussion and also fishery stock and then this is i'm putting here fishery stocks uh deliberately as a way to to gauge discussion whether there is whether there is an issue about putting that as part of the carbon balance calculations and then uh if you talk about carbon storage capacity these are the thing that has been recorded mangrove that uh Indonesian mangrove uh uh store about 3.2 billion tons of carbon uh with annual mitigation capacity of 100 million ton and then the seagrass and seaweed uh is about 0.6 billion tons uh we don't have information what corals we don't have information about fishery stocks in terms of its carbon storage capacity um and generally uh again this is uh some international numbers uh blue carbon total ecosystem values if you look at the values it's very visible here that the that nothing matched the the values of the mangrove ecosystem uh not even the seagrass before that comes second into this so this is just an illustrative um so with respect to that the informations about the related to the IPCC report as well as the Indonesia's uh context i suppose uh we would need to find out and hopefully uh it's coming from this uh the so-called blue corp and uh what kind of decision will actually coming out of this this time uh of the the blue corp this time uh uh would the political agreement about inclusion of ocean into climate action uh uh be out of this uh if not then why why would they call it a blue corp and and then um of course after the political agreement we would need some sort of mechanism for inclusions of ocean into climate action there will be technical matters there will be uh compensation and slash market matters here i put it this is like uh this this highlights where Indonesia case before if we have 100 million ton per year carbon sequestration capacity and we want to comment that uh into this uh mitigation who would compensate us for that uh that's only cost 1.5 billion a year uh in terms of u.s. dollar so um i guess Indonesian government would be happy if someone put that 1.5 billion dollar a year to compensate for the for the uh uh mount roof ecosystem functions to sequester carbon and then uh we don't know uh at least i until today we do not hear any specific commitment in terms of financial uh amount to support the the ocean climate actions uh from the corp yesterday there were three announcement about funding but none are related to to action so maybe you guys can can update us later on then in terms of Indonesia's policy context so this is what is going on in Indonesia within the past uh year uh government is very progressively putting a lot of policies there is an NDC and an SDG that commits to 2030 as a as the target timeline then the net zero emission will be achieved in 2016 uh domestically uh there is a lot of discussion about whether to 2016 will be too late for Indonesia because most people most experts believe more scientific experts believe that um this can be achieved by 2040 or 2045 by Indonesia and then government also have this policy and sustainable blue economy i guess these related to what rasal has explained before then uh specifically there is quite uh uh uh feasible mitigation policy government is doing large scale amount of rehabilitation starting this year and then also a little bit of coral reef rehabilitation uh on the adaptation side government is doing coastal zone protection as part of what they have been doing in the past and also uh more ecosystem conservation and restoration so this is related to the NDC and then the net zero policy the other one here is that the the the one that you saw in the previous slide is the one that has been officiated as government policy through the coordinating points of all um um development policies which is with the national planning agency this one and the slide after this are informations coming out of the coordinating ministry of uh maritime affairs and investment so this is how they are foreseeing the implementations of this big policies into the government uh regulatory framework so um there are legal basis already there are various agreement that has been adopted as as a law in Indonesia um so the four uh big items in in the middle are the one that government is trying to do more specifically at the moment restoration and conservation public awareness building as well as capacity building and then also so trying to to get the informations right through a more integrated database system and then the the uh the planning agency is working very well with this coordinating ministry uh coordinating all those five ministries in the right hand side and then trying to get it to the district but um i think um the my understanding is that at this point coordinating happens at the central level only not yet going to the province and district so uh this is a much more the delicate picture of what government plans to do but this is just an illustration uh we don't need to go through this one um so as i see what are the key levels for change for countries like Indonesia as a way to govern the the ocean uh ecosystem better uh for for for all of us not just for the Indonesian so the first one is that uh i would say a better integrations of landscape and oceanscape climate policy system is needed uh uh the government is doing it at the moment through spatial planning uh the the landscape space spatial plan is trying to be integrated and synchronized with the uh marine spatial plan uh government is also in the middle of trying to identify the blue carbon potentials and mapping it um uh blue carbon accounting and valuation as at early stage i would say adoption into ndc and net zero plan are not uh is not quite feasible yet at the moment but techniques to be there if we are talking seriously about uh uh ocean climate action then uh the next level would be uh the need to adopt ndc and then zero into sub-national uh development planning and budgetary system uh the second big ticket item there is that uh integrative sustainable blue economy uh integration integrating it into development policy is also important uh government keeps talking about using the fisheries management area as as a platform for a sub-national planning using the the marine ecosystem as the base uh and then this is yet to be implemented uh in a more meaningful way in indonesia but we do believe that uh if this is uh uh being significantly uh improved then we have a better future in terms of uh sustainable uh blue economy or sustainable ocean economy if you like uh protected area management has always been a challenge in indonesia uh government has 24 million hectares at the moment as a way to reach the 30 30 target but the priority is to improve the effectiveness of this uh management within the existing part and then uh alignment of investment with mitigation policy is also highly needed in the context of developing this blue economy uh the second part here about the the items for the that will significantly change the playground for for improving policy is this investment in capacity and knowledge system this is a human oriented investment human capacity investment uh public awareness and education needs to be better tailored for this purpose and also uh capacity of planners and policy measures needs to be built last point is that uh financial financing mobilization um government has committed actually uh to some extent uh doing um allocating the budgetary system um uh in line with the climate policy and then they have uh the so-called budget tagging system as a way to to monitor the implementation um on carbon compensation system of course the market and non-market the measure has yet to be divine and then i think uh before it can be implemented at country level then the UNFCC decision is needed then blend blended finance this is something i think i would like to put a strong footnote about the role of private sector here uh because uh uh countries and governments uh tend to be to be obsessed about scaling up uh in achieving sustainability but public sector doesn't have enough money and philanthropic sector doesn't support enough so there is the entry point why we need the the private sector but of course we know private sector are there to make money to make profit so they would always find ways to to make profit out of the uh of the opportunity of investment uh although they said we uh we would like to use our money to to to maintain the sustainability but what's in it for us and this is the tricky point in which country can get trapped into into uh into um selling uh more uh their resources uh uh unsustainability to the private sector a lot of tricky points needs to be considered there this is in line and i think with what raso was saying proper resource governance is is absolutely necessary in this and also the the the free private fund consent is part of the governance system needs to be there of course then the my very last point here is that this alignment of climate change and investment policies you know um as a developing countries we are we are we still have a lot of investments for growth but as you see and even if you you see controversies along around news of government policies uh in the in cop but uh how should indonesian align better their their climate change policy with the investment policy since this is the one of the big one work for us in indonesia so i think if those things can be aligned better i think we will have a better so i'll stop there thank you excellent thank you very very um all right so we've got a few questions that have come in but i know we've only got janine for a short length of time at the moment so i'm gonna actually direct one to her initially um janine you mentioned that there's been a move in towards the acceptance of there being an ocean climate nexus and it needs to be part of the climate discussions but how do we move from that to actually operationalizing it i understand the small island states are doing a lot of work but there are a lot of states that aren't doing a whole lot in that area and where do we need to look next to actually extend that thank you very much so the the climate system it's a sorry the climate negotiation process is has a very huge agenda and it covers it has already established items that include science um sorry i'm not sure if there was a question should i continue yeah please okay sorry about that yes um so there there's a way to bring up some of these issues for instance in what is the term the research and systematic observation considerations in the climate process so that we'll look at the science which could include of course ocean related type science for consideration as to how that can contribute to the goals of the paris agreement or the ultimate objective of the framework convention and there's also a push this year at this cop to have a specific reference to oceans in the the omnibus resolution that comes out of the cop to bring attention political attention essentially to that and as i mentioned during the discussion there's already examples of countries put in ocean internationally determined contributions so once the whole process of reporting comes out measured against the global stock take which will happen every five years starting with 2023 that that will in itself create a practical channel or practical platform to highlight ocean action in context of climate action um one thing that needs to be underscored is that the paris agreement is not a top down um a type of agreement it doesn't prescribe action it comes from the bottom up so as much as there can be sharing of information on activities that countries are doing ultimately as we saw with moobhark's presentation it has to be integrated in what countries put on the table for their climate plans and for some not all countries because you do have landlocked countries um for some countries you will be able to integrate ocean funds into your climate plans and we hope that that will be something that that countries will will see the benefit of through some of the pioneering activities from countries like the small island development states or indonesia in the case um that it will address um that that area um but i also think there there's a way to incentivize um ocean action which is why i mentioned the climate funds i think that operationalization is through investment it is through financing and one of the key fillers of the united nations framework convention is that there should be support provided to developing countries to implement climate actions and one of the channels to do that is student green climate fund which sets out its strategic areas of focus and it will do so based on its replenishment processes and it would be good to see advocacy within that body so it's through the board pour ocean to be part of the strategic priorities for that fund similarly with the global environmental facility um so you know i think there are ways and many different avenues just can be through the process it can be through the climate plans from the national institutions it can be through the climate funds um there are multiple opportunities to do that and i think we're at a point where because that case has been filed we're at a point where we can now just we just need a political signal to keep going um but let it not stop at climate you have the biodiversity framework that biodiversity framework as we heard a couple weeks ago will now have a new fund and that fund necessarily will be linked to the framework and implementation of the post 2020 framework and oceans is that's that's one of the component of the post 2020 global biodiversity framework let's let's see how we can have complementarity across these different platforms to ensure that we do get the the necessary investment into um ocean action so i will leave it at that um i'm happy to answer any other questions but i do unfortunately have to leave in in about eight minutes thanks jeanine that was a very comprehensive answer as well so that's fabulous i don't know if either of our other speakers want to take up any of the points that janine's mentioned there barbaric shall i yes please yeah um yeah i that's a very comprehensive answer thank you janine um you know i my uh my sense is that innovative finance is rapidly advancing um the commitments in top 26 uh you know through um you know with mark carney and others you know this there's been massive increases in in general commitment to uh the decarbonizing agenda but i i agree with you it's beyond climate i mean we need to um you know if i could tell a personal anecdote my colleague uh ruth from kenya my sherpa colleague i was talking about uh boosting productivity and uh sharing the benefits of increased food production and commercialization and uh she brought me down to earth by telling me in my country um food is very important so is the ocean but the issue is hunger the issue is uh loss of livelihood there's uh and where when you have hunger you have anger and these are social issues that are intimately linked with the health of the ocean the food production um so people are critical and so the systems that uh protect and restore coastal systems my colleague from indonesia barbaric in in the panel talked about i u u fishing illegal unregulated unreported fishing but said equally important is coastal livelihoods uh poverty and so i i think we need systems of financing the blue bonds and fantastic news about belize thank you uh but it was um has to integrate the equity has to integrate the well-being in a very general way for multiple cultures by but do it by reducing emissions improving livelihoods and just the well-being of people so i say put people in this equation with the financing and the restorations thank you yeah if i could have just one one small point which is about the uh the life the people's livelihood uh my my primary concern at the moment with the entry of private funds into this issue is the uh the the demand for territorial rights exclusive territorial right for fishing under the pretext that okay we will protect the the the protect area effectively uh and then so we can fix uh exclusively in the area and then we promise you millions of dollars of profit to finance the project area and there is very dangerous propositions but this is being put out by private sectors around here so um i'm i'm very uh uh concerned about that uh and then uh uh trying to be awareness uh so as Russell said equity should be in the forefront when we are talking about about uh for a livelihood system Sally can i just jump in right there because i think i totally agree um that when we talk about blue economy when we talk about mitigation any type of action it really does need to have an inclusive component equity of course being part of that conversation um and so that's where i guess i have some challenges with a completely decentralized approach to promoting action because you then you don't have the oversight it's it's part of the criticism that has been brought against the mark carney initiatives on voluntary carbon markets and the net zero alliance is that your friend essentially as we say in the Caribbean put in the fox the mind the chicken coop and you need to have some type of ability to monitor um that you know these commitments that are being made they're actually being made um in preserving environmental integrity and ensuring that people benefit and that's really critical and i just forgot to mention about the the markets issue that moobarak um mentioned and that's something that's being discussed here there are already markets um voluntary carbon markets um at play and um i think it's really critical that the rules that come out of this cop so thanks moobarak for putting that there that the rules that come out from this cop ensures that there will be environmental integrity um it will necessarily address issues like blue carbon in addition to other aspects but but really critical it will be it will be ensuring that there's a robust framework to ensure environmental integrity thank you thank you all um while we've got janine for a brief length of time i'm going to ask one of the questions that we received in the q and a which relates to the 30 by 30 target and the risk for the remaining 70 of the ocean um the part of the question that grabbed my attention is what kind of conservation status would apply to the 30 protected area to achieve both climate and biodiversity goals um do you want to touch on that before you have to leave us yeah um i think that's really um a great question i think the the there's also a lot of question marks about what a collective 30 by 30 goal means in practice um but you know one of the things that um has been on the negotiating table for some time now is this idea of the area based management tools and there's and a lot of emphasis of course comes on marine protected areas which can have multiple um thresholds of protection could be complete protection and then there are other modified areas but that is one of the one of the tool in the toolbox um but there are other areas in terms of policies that could address some even potential sustainable fisheries um that can be used to to implement a 30 by 30 um um to goal a target um what's critical what is critical is that it's not just a paper park or a paper protected area it has to be there has to be a framework for monitoring and evaluating what's happening with with those um whatever activity or approach is taken to promote um conservation and sustainable use wherever if it's in the high seas or if it's if it's at home it there just needs to be proper monitoring and evaluation so we don't end up with with some nice figures but no actual impact thanks thanks that leads on to sort of one of the other questions I noticed that both Russell and Maraak and their presentations talked about sustainable ocean plans or spatial planning and the idea of how these will function and how these will interact with the existing plans under the climate system such as the NDCs and the adaptation plans that we've already got happening is there a space for those to interact or will they be totally separate arrangements um okay I think for for the for the protected areas I think uh there there will be a more uh stringent rule oriented toward protections uh of the resources rather than the the 70 part of the of the system but uh as I mentioned in the question as well uh lively local livelihood is a big issue to be taken care of so I think it should be should be uh whatever the system there is should ensure the continuity of these livelihood resources for the local people and there's I think that's fundamental aspect to it uh in another uh bigger issues on the uh spatial plan synchro synchronization I think this is a big challenge for us especially as the the mining sectors uh some of them started much earlier than than the issue of climate change and then the the ocean climate actions so uh we have places where uh government is struggling about about alignment of uh of uh mining in the coastal area or near coast area vis-a-vis the fish production as well as the the protections uh the protected areas issues so Jesus uh it will take some more time for us to to get that line but I think the the awareness is increasing now with more uh participation of of private sector uh getting into into the dialogue uh we are also hearing more and more productive dialogue but uh that is what we are seeing uh in in the in the what we call it in the sort of uh process oriented activities how to to make to align these two these two forces one is the the the private sector who wants to make profit while trying to help and the other one is the uh stakeholders who wants to make sure the sustainability aspect um but uh we have a bigger challenge that I think we was put in the question there and I think it's a different question uh how do we see the prospect of blue carbon uh amid the trend of government policy on investment and development so uh it's it's it's very challenging I would say it's very challenging in the this context that I want to talk about uh where is the meeting point between a serious climate change policy uh vis-a-vis the pro-investment policy that try to boost the good the economic growth so uh you see sometimes uh zigzag pathways uh along the around the the sustainable pathways and and so far we are seeing there are there are forces try to to bring the deviation always to the center but uh it it's it's yet to be seen how effective we can be in terms of pulling this uh this uh what do you call it the um unfavorable pool uh back to the central pathways for the sustainability I would say um thank you Mabarek, Sally may I comment please please please there's a lot to cover there I'm sure you'll have some thoughts yeah look um one of the listening to uh I I many years ago I worked with the Indonesian colleagues and the oceanology institute and and the we were looking at Palau Saribu in the Jakarta Bay and um it struck me of I just had different the challenges were for the different countries and uh Indonesia has um extremely diverse 17 000 islands uh some areas of high populations and so the challenges for each country uh in in the high level panel are very different so when we wrote our conclusions we made sure that everywhere we put in some recommendations we said according to national circumstance uh to make sure that we recognize cultures are variable solutions that work in one culture will not work in another I've worked with Polynesian culture is very different it's more dynamic they allocate the year to year who who has access to different resources by the chiefs and uh Sally you know is better than me probably but the um the western culture is different um in thinking about Australian sustainable ocean planning uh our government hasn't set it's committed to making one along with the other members by 2025 but the um the government hasn't yet settled on exactly how that would happen um but I think we can draw a lot of lessons on um essentially uh well we can in the states New South Wales uh I work with that government on their marina state which is the coastal waters out to three miles they have a process called threat and risk analysis um it's different to the methods used to create marine parks in the barrier if for instance where there was what they call comprehensive adequate and representative was the uh methodology where you look at the biodiversity bio regions um that works well where there's not many people where there's many people uh and uh coast of New South Wales has a high population if you're looking at the values uh or the environmental values the natural values um it's worked out well for that government to look at the threats and risks and find local solutions um which I think is much more like the thinking of Indonesian colleagues you know there's compromises there's things that uh locally work in one part of the their country and not in another there's some common elements to it uh wherever possible be evidence based you know have the evidence to discuss the compromises um have a concept of equity and sharing the resource and ultimately if I said what's the key uh what's the key success factor I would say it's leadership uh and uh inspiring leadership which brings multiple parties together to share resources or to prevent conflict to and allow equitable benefits for very some rich people some poor people some you know the community benefit uh that takes a lot of wisdom and um leadership and and is very challenging to echo my colleague Mabare it is very challenging so um that's what I'll contribute thank you thank you um I wanted to ask we know that at the moment we are entering the UN decade of ocean science for sustainable development and I'm wondering what difference we think that this decade will make in terms of where we're looking at the science I know as the Barak had a number of areas with questions in the blue carbon assessments where are we headed and what would be the changes that we see through the implementation of this new research effort okay um well uh it's you know uh being here uh you know Indonesia is a fun place um uh you see a lot of diversity in the in the in ideas in people in culture in approach including in the policy approaches so that's what makes us uh almost always zigzagging around the pathways towards sustainability I would say so sometimes we see a very consistent approach and sometimes we see a very inconsistent approach and then again leadership does matter I do agree with that the problem is that uh where is the leadership taking us to there's something uh there's part of the uncertainty that we need to take into account there's what that what's been there has been the lesson in Indonesia's contest for the last 11 years uh uh getting serious into the climate change policy you can see it you can you can trace how how how the leadership uh is is uh something sometimes changing courses and you you would wonder uh are we still going into the same direction that we declared we want to go people not sure sometimes really I'm serious sometimes we cannot be sure about that so uh as always uh countries politics are colored by the political economic choices of the leaders and that is what what determine the directions um so I would say at this point we are we are in in the challenging in in a very challenging situations to gauge uh where is actually we are going in terms of policy so maybe Russell would have a different take on that one um Sally can I have a right of reply um absolutely I couldn't I couldn't agree more I I'm not familiar enough with your government's policy uh to comment on Indonesia but I do know that um I'm a scientist by training so I tend to think we can solve it all if we just have enough data or we know that's not true that's definitely not true um so what I I come around with some experience with ocean policy in Australia 25 years ago and other things that um uh the ambition to solve the problems uh I think needs to be a dialogue yeah you have the scientists you have the local people and the regional government and the federal governments so state government whatever different layers of government um and in some countries the NGOs play a very strong role possibly in asian countries you know the um differently from in Australia but so the right people need to look at the resources available the conflicts um I give you an example if you want to put a wind farm in a shipping lane which has been released for aquaculture development you need to be talking about that uh and so you know that's a classic example of emerging industries but if there's and that you need to manage that space so that's what I call spatial area management or integrated ocean management but um but that might be a limited area where those things combine um but if you ask a scientist they would map the 11 million square kilometers of Australia's EEZ where there's no conflict in most of it you know so there's not enough hours in the day or money in the bank of the government to an industry to work everywhere so do a threat and risk approach there's a risk of a ship colliding with an aquaculture farm and drifting into a wind generator that's where you should focus now we have to get organized and manage the space and work um I would say uh not not in my experience with Indonesia and some parts of coastal Australia um what do the local people need for their livelihood now they need some return from the tourism that's happening in their area uh my colleagues in Mexico were very passionate about this that um some forms of tourism don't leave anything behind they they don't leave anything with the local people uh and so they call it leakage leakage of benefit away from the people that's when I said put people in uh and that's where the local leaders the uh province leaders and the national leaders can help put the regulation in place to look after the local people from the people that would otherwise just take the money and run away yeah uh if I can add a little bit to that that is of uh of choices of of uh investment types so to speak like the tourism uh this is uh exactly uh among other things that uh my organization is promoting uh around the world how can we use science and including economics in presenting options for decision makers uh and uh and people so one of the one of the work of CSF in Palau uh was that uh they were able to show uh put on the table to the government the cost-benefit analysis of who will actually be benefiting from uh the choice of make uh maintaining keeping the tourism uh small and and served by the community fees versus uh giving it a sophisticated large-scale investment to to international companies and when they uh one decision um factor that they really look seriously into is the percentage of of uh spending uh enjoyed by the local people and then so uh with that they can they can show and and build motivation for the for the for the locals uh the livelihood decision will depend on it and they can they can bring and the the the resources the marine resources can bring them better prosperity if they manage it well and so they make the choice so tourism is anchored in that particular area as a as a non large-scale uh sophisticated tourism but rather uh manage very very uh it's a kind of uh it's it's uh what do you call it it's actually it's a it's an expensive tourism but managed by the local and they make everything local so the providers of the of the things enjoyed by the tourists are all local and and yeah through various populations they manage to so then and it becomes a good choice. Sally there's a good point to make on tourism sorry to butt in uh that I talked to my tourism colleagues a lot here in Australia and Mexico and Jamaica and um there is a changing market for tourists now uh post COVID and it's um tourists don't want to go somewhere and be not not received well you know they don't want to be seen to be damaging the environment uh I think the cruise ship industry is addressing this now because they've had problems in the past in the Caribbean Caribbean um so the market for a smaller scale not so cheap but giving benefit so they're welcome they leave something for improving the environment they're seen as helping the local people look after the environment not damaging and taking away so there's that market according to some of my industry colleagues is a growing uh growing market people people don't want to be a tourist uh in a place that's beautiful but they're not they're not welcome yeah yeah absolutely um and linking from I guess that across into a theme that I'm hearing here from the that livelihood and local focus and to an issue that one of our Q&As raised is how are these systems interfacing now with the emerging issue of plastic pollution which is obviously both petroleum based and expanding as an alternate for other fossil fuel uses of petroleum industry and has what we're finding out are growing concerns in how the plastics break down and impact the ocean and the oceans ability to absorb uh CO2 have either of you got any thoughts on that area I have some thoughts shall I go yeah go ahead please um yeah look the plastic story um is boils to the Pew Foundation did a really disturbing report um uh well now I lose track of the years with COVID but I think it was two years ago now um but um it is a very difficult problem because most people don't realize that the main source of the resins that make most of the plastic come from methane which is a cheap byproduct from the gas industry and that there's probably a hundred companies that account for most of the source but it's very cheap it's very cheap in fact you nearly get paid to take it it's um so virgin plastic they call that virgin plastic which means not recycled uh is um is cheaper for people that need to make a lot of plastic containers to use the raw material rather than recycle material and um I know Andrew Forrest is talking to him he's a an iron ore exporter and is looking at hydrogen technology he had an idea about those hundred companies perhaps uh imposing imposing themselves a self-imposed levy to make it um worthwhile to recycle so reversing what you call the value chain make it just as cheap to use recycled plastic which is cost money because it's more expensive but ultimately I think we need new materials I mean because whether it's macro plastic or nanoplastic uh crossing the blood-brain barrier my friends in the the pacific tell me that you know that it's one of it after climate change it's one of their biggest issues because uh nanoplastics are in their diet they eat it's in the fish it's in their diet so um this is very important to people highly dependent on fish and so I think um we need different materials we need uh materials that can be reused we need Ellen MacArthur and circular economy we need thinking differently about the uh the take it from the earth make it into something and throw it away we have to change that to a more traditional culture of reuse recycle um and it's a very complex issue because it's so ingrained you think plastic only was invented less than a hundred years ago and we're already making more plastic than there are weight of humans on the planet you know it's it's something that got away from us when we weren't looking so so I think it's it's up there with climate change something we should change as soon as we can let me take on the the feasible part of the plastic pollution is not the micro and the micro and nanoplastics are more difficult to to to respond to but in in our context I think in many countries we are still facing these feasible plastic collisions from the waste uh from the inappropriate waste waste management I would say um and this is her tourism uh clearly uh you you see uh about Indonesia a lot of republications uh came out two years ago after somebody diving in the middle of the oceans of plastic he called it um and put it in YouTube and it becomes viral but uh the situation uh like that usually happened uh because lack of integratedness in the uh area management or territorial management I would say uh if you take examples of a national park a bunakin national park in the North Sulawesi uh most plastic perhaps all well 99.9% maybe of plastic waste in the bunakin parks come from the island of Sulawesi which is the city of Manlado which is right in front of it and then it seems so fierce to us uh uh from as an outsider how come they they cannot just get the plastic at the river mouth before it enters the sea well it looks like it's a very very simple and and doable technical solution but the fact that it it didn't happen uh raised a lot of questions um why why is it why is it didn't happen it's so like like sounds like a very uh simple problem to to resolve but uh four years it's not yet uh completely resolved and then the other uh example is Bali uh Paro Bali are um uh Paro Bali are infected by the uh by the uh plastic waste from Java during the the west uh wind season but if the wind comes blows from the east there is no plastics uh and that means clearly that the plastic comes from Java and and then what to do in that kind of situation and so this is this is where perhaps the concept of regional blue economy uh which is in the Indonesia context uh the fission so far is using the fisheries management area as a platform of coordination can work well so um if uh inter-provincial government can work together using this platform to coordinate actions and and policies to to manage their waste at least the feasible waste um then that can perhaps uh help to get the Asian ocean much cleaner and also uh maintain the value of tourism quite high body for the national economy and for the local yeah thank you thank you um um but only a little over five minutes left I want to leave you both with a very short question or any other round-up comments that you might like to make but Marara made a comment in his presentation about what decision comes out of the blue cop and it makes me wonder what does the cop have to do to earn the right to be called blue and what needs to come out of this to earn the right for this cop to be called a blue cop yeah I've been asking this person around since yesterday and no one answered no one no one seems to be no one seems to feel hot enough to answer that I really wonder what the more uh technical question would be what are the directions of decision that is being expected coming out of the cop so it is being called blue cop no no no no one has answered the questions um so I really I'm really wondering um and then it's been it's been four days right uh how much is that in the agenda I don't know so perhaps uh you guys who are in in Glasgow at the moment can share some of this perspective ah Mubarak I was thinking the same thing um now who which one of which one of us is actually in Glasgow now um not Sally none of us but uh sorry Janina's not here she could tell us but no I I honestly don't know but I do think that um some recognition and a creation of a rules improving the nationally determined contribution assessments of blue carbon um assistance for um especially developing countries with restoreable blue carbon uh there I'm just the brainstorming ideas that for me would tick the box of a blue cop uh if some of those things were being discussed and especially some of the um I mean we we have finance uh uh under the uh TCFD you know the task force on climate related financial disclosure and we have the blue finance principles so we're seeing an emergence of those but I haven't seen them I haven't followed enough the detail of the cop to know if they've had any prominence in Glasgow but I would like to see some acknowledgement um out of this conference that the ocean can be a solution to climate build the resilience of our natural systems and help billions of people increase their well-being and improve the climate reduce the impact of climate change if they are taken into account more directly in the financing mechanisms and the priority setting for development aid and for blended finance of the uh philanthropic and and uh government intergovernmental and private investment ethical ethical investing in ocean-based enterprises that's what I like to see I don't know if they're doing it sorry yeah I think uh in relation to what Jenin was highlighting a lot before about the role of TCF the green climate fund so I wonder if that will get strengthened in there after this call because so far my personal view is that the the the marine marine based climate action is not very specific and not very strong in GCF in the green climate fund professions yeah yeah look at and the the point about the the it's very positive to hear investment is moving away from damaging emission you know the industries that would damage the climate goals but someone also heard a comment today that not all of the investors in the old industries the looting industries actually come through that kind they come through private equity you know they come through things that aren't controlled by black rock and by others so this is very complex the finance world so I but I I like where the what I've heard from the World Bank the IFC the development banks and the the intentions seem strong in in these banks that are close to the people yeah yeah no definitely definitely well that draws our session to a close I want to thank you both and Janine and absent here for your contributions in the discussion today it was fabulous to be a part of it and I guess moving forward from here we hope to see in a range of different ways that blue is marked as something that finance and other elements of climate have to attest attend to and that the processes such as the one Russell's involved in with the panel for the sustainable ocean economy continue to push climate is one of the issues that are so important to ocean so thank you both for being here and thank you everybody for joining us today thanks for being in the end thank you so much thanks for listening thank you thanks everybody