 Okay, good afternoon everyone. My name is Hong Fu-Tang from Vietnam. I run a 4th Asia organization. Supporting open source and free software movement in Asia we are connected with many developer communities and of course GBN is one of our favorites. So we host I think two midi DevCon at our 4th Asia annual summit in the past but this is my first time in DevCon. I'm really happy to be here and okay so I have here on stage with me six excellent developers, GBN developers coming from very diverse backgrounds and especially they come from six different regions around the world. So today they will share with us their life story experiences challenging working in the community and also they will suggest ideas and best practices how we can scale and sustain projects within DBN. With that I will start to briefly introduce our panelists. I will start with Peter Gabby. He's from the US. He is probably the earliest DBN contributor here in the room. Started in 1994, 24 years with the project. Yeah I was blown away by reading about all his work in the Wikipedia page. It is an honor to have you here with us. Thank you. And super happy to have Debbie Breville from a very special place, Tahiti. Yeah anyone here have been to Tahiti? You know where that is? Well Debbie perhaps will tell you more later. So Debbie right now working as a high school teacher from... The current government? Yeah the current government. Okay yeah you can explain more later. I met Debbie last night in my first impression with you really friendly and very helpful. So thank you very much for showing me around the way and everything. And I have here Jonathan Carter from South Africa. Jonathan actually became a DBN developer early last year. He's a very special story about his journey and his relationship with DBN which you will share with the audience later. And Hideki Yamane from Japan right. So maybe you already know Hideki, he played a very important role in drawing the community, the local community in Japan. He also tech writer for a local magazine. Yeah and I have here, I try to have to say your name correctly, Hoshui Otega from Guatemala. Even though he looks very young, he actually has more than 10 years experience as a free software advocate. And he's also a member of the software label Guatemala which is a very important organization that foster free software movement in the country. And last but not least I have here with me Nikola Demontri. Thank you. So Nikola is actually one of the organizers of this DevCon. If you haven't noticed that, he's the man behind the scene. But not only this DevCon but many other events. And thank you, I know you are very busy but thank you very much for taking this one hour here with us. And seeing I have you here, thank you and the team for putting up such an amazing event. Thank you very much. Okay, so to kick things off, I would like to ask each panelist this question. What brought you to DBN in the first place? And what is your current goal? What is your involvement in DBN D-Day? And finally, please tell us one thing about you that people he wouldn't know. So I will start with Peter. Okay, let's see. The story of how I became involved in DBN is actually kind of long and involved but interesting. There was a reporter in the UK several years ago who published a lengthy interview with me with lots and lots of details. The very short version is that I was involved in a project to develop a payload for an amateur radio satellite. And I was collaborating with people in many different countries. And this was before Linux had become a really big deal. And one of my friends started using Linux as his platform for working on the project. And that caused me to begin to take Linux seriously. And I started looking for which sort of version of Linux I should play with. And I discovered that there was an effort to figure out how to use Devian for doing ham radio related work. And that sort of the thing that brought me into the project. I got sucked in very, very quickly. And within two or three months of joining the project, I had taken over several packages, was maintaining different pieces of software, had built the first server that was fully dedicated for Debian use, and had become sort of very involved in the center of the project. That was in late 1994. Something about me that people don't know. Well, okay, today I've done lots of things in the project. Those of you who know me will recall that I was Debian project leader at one point. I spent almost 10 years as chairman of the Debian technical committee. I've been involved in all sorts of craziness over the years in terms of architecture for our infrastructure in the project and some other things, big decisions over the years. Today, I'm actually retired in the corporate world. And the things I still do for Debian are to maintain a few base essential packages, things like GZIP and TAR and SUDU, which I've been working on fixing some bugs in today. And something that people don't know about me. Actually, many people have been immensely surprised that given the amount of travel I did during my corporate career, this is the first time I've ever been in Taiwan. So there's something most people don't know about me. Well, just a quick question there. So I just heard over the break that you also run your own company that developed hardware for rocketry. Do people here know about this? Yeah, actually almost everyone knows about that. But for those who don't, and those who are watching on the video stream, Keith Packard and I are partners in a small company that does open hardware and open source solutions for the electronics that are used in high power model rockets, which is a hobby thing. I've also personally built electronics that's now on satellites that are in orbit and lots of other stuff like that. But yeah, it's enough about me, other folks. I'm sure I have things to say. Okay, thank you. Hi. So to answer the question, I'll get involved in the project. How did you start it with the DPN? Yeah, and I had quite a busy life 15 years ago when I was living in Paris. And after that, when I moved overseas in a little island, I began to manage too much time in front of me. And I could finally use that time to do something constructive about the tools I was actually using. That's where our, for the tips that made me, free me some time, actually, to contribute. And first thing that I met because I was not in the computer world, actually, was to have the translation project to have people who don't speak English very well, like me, as you can see, to actually be able to install software or understand the documentation. And that's what drove me in the beginning. And once you get involved, if you're happy with the project, you do more. And that's how I came involved in that project. And say some things that some people might not know about me, it's pretty hard. I don't know. Maybe you don't know, but I am very much like rabbits. Okay. Cheers. So my Debian story and how I got there is also long and twisty road, so I'll try to make a short version of it. But in 2000, when I finished high school, my family wasn't doing so well. So there wasn't a way for me to go to university. So I just continued support doing a bunch of IT work around the neighborhood and a few companies I knew. And at this stage, I discovered Linux and played with it more and more and found that I can do a lot of things that I did with Windows servers, just with Linux, just installing Apache and Samba already blew my mind. So I started doing this for all the companies I supported already and found that it was great. And I thought I should really get Linux into schools and teach other high school kids how to use Linux and how to administer it. So at this point, I posted about it on a Linux user group. And at this point, the Shuttleith Foundation, who was also in that Linux user group, was talking about getting thin lines into schools for educational purposes. I thought that this is great. I should get in touch because I could piggyback on that to teach Linux in schools. And so a year later, I started working for them full-time and it snowballed into a lot of things. I became a Ubuntu contributor and later on a Moto and by 2012, I joined my first debconf and then things snowballed into the Debian direction from there on. So, yeah, and last year, I finally became a Debian developer. So that's, that's in a nutshell. Something that someone might not know about me. I'm a big StarCrate fan. That's all I can think of right now. Thank you. Hi. I was, I started to use Linux as a system administrator in small company. And because there's no money, so I should use Linux for the proxy or DNS or web server. And there are people and Debian people in Linux user group, local user group. So I choose Debian for the first choice. And I asked many questions to local mailing list. Then I thought, I want the answer from the reliable people. Then what should I do for it? Then, and I thought, if I am kind of contributor, they probably don't ignore me. If there's people and just a user and a contributor, probably they choose the questions from the contributors I built. So I started to work in about translation work because I'm not good at English. So I don't read much English at Google. So I studied to the translation, Debian message from English to Japanese. That's the, that's the start of my Debian contribution. Recently, I play with some packages, like Debut Slop. How many uses Debut Slop? Oh, thank you. And fix bags and make some regressions. And some people are angry with me. Why? When you update these packages? But it's a fun time for me to get some reactions from users. That's all. Well, my first approach with Debian was in the university with the compiler scores. For some reason, it was a requirement to install Debian to run some Java lecture tools. So I installed it and I really liked it. Then I went to DevCon 2012. And I really loved the community. It was like, oh, I need to be part of this. So I started to contribute maybe two months after DevCon. And then I become a DD two years ago. Actually, yeah. And one of the most things I like is I started contributing with the Debian Astro team, which I am kind of astronomy fan. So I'm kind of contributing with a lot of people in the astronomy community. One thing you don't know about me is I'm a hobbyist bass player. So that's all. Hi. So I started using Linux when I was a high school student. I was using Gen2 back then because watching compilation lines scroll by was cool. And when I started university, I became involved in the student ISP there. And all the servers were running Debian. So I started using Debian to understand what was going on. And I guess I had to package something and I started getting involved in packaging. And then the infrastructure to actually submit packages wasn't that good. So I contributed there. And then I got root access to the server. And so basically, yeah, you just put your hand in a small cog and then your arm gets sucked in. And you keep contributing, I guess. One thing that people might not know about me is that I watch way too many TV shows, like a lot. What kind of show do you watch? Oh, one of the last things that I rewatched was Halt and Catch Fire, very good show about the 80s. Okay, so before I move on to the next question, I just want to ask the audience quickly, how many of you here are non Debian contributors? You want to be in the future, but you are not yet Debian contributors. Could you please raise your hand? Okay, good. Okay, so back to the next question. What is your greatest accomplishment or your proudest moment during your Debian time? I will start with Nicola. So during my time in Debian, I've contributed to the outreach team, which runs Google Summer of Code and Outreachy internships in Debian. And I think the thing that I'm the most proud of is making sure that the project keeps funding Outreachy internships in a regular manner, so that people can get involved in the project under representative groups. A question for you. So do you need to be a Debian contributor to join the outreach team or is open for anyone to, what is the qualification to be? So I guess if you have some, I'm not currently involved in the outreach team anymore, but if you have something that you want to be done inside Debian and you're not a contributor yet, I think you're going to be accepted as a mentor inside the team and actually get like an internship slot to do the project that you want to include in Debian. It's way easier if you're already maybe known in the community, but it's not a strong requirement. And of course, if you want to do an internship, then, yeah, new contributors are of course welcome. The same question for, who's there? Well, my, one of the things I'm proud is the packaging of Globis, which is a data analysis tool, which I make helps to analyze astronomical data. So it took me like a packaging a lot of stuff to bring all the stuff to Debian. And I really like that. But actually, I really enjoy every time I close a product because I know there's a lot of people is relying in Debian packages. So I'm just there to help them. So that's a question on the book. So do you remember any like very difficult bug and how much time did you spend on the hardest bug in your life so far? There are plenty, probably once with PiSBN, which is not related with, yeah, but it's really hard packaging. It's really hard to keep it building in a lot of architectures. So that's one of maybe two weeks. You have a question? So we'll leave some time at the end for questions. We only have two minutes. So as she said, I'm a tech writer. So I am writing the Debian article in Japanese tech magazine for five years. So I read the Debian information around the people in Japan. Okay, so I have a question about when people talk about Japan, they always talk about the Japanese manga. It's really popular for Japanese people. Because my nickname is the picture, the Japanese manga character. Do you have plans to make a Debian manga to promote the project? There was the Ubuntu manga. I know, I know the author because I'm also the Ubuntu local Japanese team. But the magazine was suspended because of the company issue. It's nice if I can see and read the Debian manga. But I saw some hacker comic in Japan. The character uses Debian. Oh, that's the way he uses Debian, I guess. Okay, so another question for you. So you said that you are a writer for a local magazine. So magazine is a very traditional media that could help to send out the message to the public. Are there more tech writers like you in Japan about Debian? Are there more tech writers like you about Debian or do you have any plan to get more people to become writers? If there's a lot of money, I don't know. Is there any incentive? Do you get paid by writing for the magazine? Yes, I got, but it's not so much. I spend every weekend. And the, but the, the time is not so much because probably you know the tech issue is so hard to reproduce or to use the correct word. Checking the correct word is hard. And I want more people to get involved to write about Debian. But if you want more money, I don't, I don't, well, it's not a money issue. It's a kind of love. So I think the motivation could be to have your name on a printed paper. Now everything online, but now you get open the book, open the magazine, it's your name right there. I think it could be a good motivation for people here who want to write about Debian. So there's a few things that, that I was proud of in Debian. One thing wasn't really my fault, but that was how well Debian 16 went in Cape Town, which is my home city. That was really nice. Debian for nice. Still have people telling me, oh, that was a great day. I'm glad to, but I was just a very small part of it. But that's definitely one thing that stands out for me. But also, during the stretch released, I did a lot of testing on the, the testing images that were available and found some bugs and fixed one or two of them as well. And that's something I'm really happy with. And I'd also suggest to anyone who wants to get involved into Debian, testing the pre-release images is extremely useful and valuable to the project. And it's a good way to get exposure to many parts of the project as well. Because you learn to file bugs, you learn to try to reproduce other people's bugs. So it's a good idea to keep a watch on when alphas and betas are released, and especially the final images and install something like virtual box or QMU on your machine and learn to install Debian images on there. And that, that will get you a long way to get involved with Debian. A question for you. I'm just curious, what is so good about the DevCon in CapTal? I think many people here haven't been to CapTal before. What is the, what is the good? Well, it was a lot cooler and not as you. Jonathan, we just started today. We haven't finished DevCon yet. You can't tell. And we had lots of places to relax and sit around and chat. And the social aspect of it was really good. And I think that makes a big difference. Okay, but we can't tell if this is not better. You know, we have to wait until the end. Sure. One of the things I was, I've been most happy to, when I was contributing to Debian was, was actually the first time, the first time I wrote a bug repo that was actually acknowledged by the manager. The first time I proposed a patch that was accepted by the manager. The first time I made my own uploads. The first time I met actual Debian developer in real life. That was, that was the thing that made me personally happy. And for the things that I'm most proud of, that might be the, the people around me that are now using Debian just because showing them there's something that works. It is interesting that, that might solve the problem. And, and so the, these people are either around me or further away, but I know I contributed for them to actually use Debian or go further. That, that makes me proud to be in the project. I think that it's very important to get people around you to use Debian. Not a question for you. So you are a high school teacher. Do all your students use Debian? Sorry? Your students, do they all use Debian? Actually, we, at the school, when I'm, when I'm currently, we, we don't use Debian on the, on the computer. But a few years ago, I managed to, because I'm a teacher in mechanical engineering and some of these software are not running under Unix BIOS, BASC computer. But a few years ago, I managed to teach some computer science. So I was able to install my own servers, install the actual clients. So I run Debian Edu. That's why I got involved in the Debian Edu project at the time. And yes, there was more than one room that is, that was running Debian, that is still running Debian actually in, in Martini. And at least one of the students of mine, after a few months, came back and, and showed me his computer and said to me, oh, now it's running Debian and now it's running. So, yes, that works. Oh, okay. So, but I think, you know, I have a story of one, a First Asia member who is also a high school teacher. So being a teacher gives you a lot of opportunity. You can just teach anything you want, even though there is a lesson line that you need to follow. But you can get the students together one evening and, and try to do something extra that get, that lead them into one direction. So I think that being a teacher is a really cool position to have the impact in the young generation. So thank you very much and hope that you continue to teach Debian to more people. Well, things I'm proud of. It's really hard to win that down to just one. So I won't mention three. One of them is that because my corporate professional career caused me to travel an immense amount around the world, many of you who know me know that there were several years where I did more than 400,000 flight miles per year. And in that crazy period, one of the things I got to do was to meet people in different countries who were interested in Debian but didn't have any way to get their key signed so they could start the process of becoming a Debian developer. I can think of at least three countries where the first DD in that country was able to join the project because I visited their country on business and was able to meet them and sign their key. And so that was, that's something I thought was really cool at the time. The second thing is that there was a year when I was invited to attend the Linux kernel summit on behalf of my employer to talk about what my employer needed from the kernel community. And I took advantage of that opportunity to rip off my HP shirt, exposing my Debian swirl T-shirt underneath and ask the kernel community the question is Debian violating its social contract by shipping the Linux kernel in Maine. And that was the beginning of the discussion about getting all the binary firmware blobs out of the kernel, which took several years of work and the kernel community had to buy in and agree to work on that. But the way we handle firmware for IO devices around the Linux kernel today, I think the only reason that work ever got done is that someone like me was willing to stand up and in some way sort of embarrass the kernel community about the issue and get them to take it seriously. But I guess on some level the thing I'm probably personally the most proud of and Debian is that today when people talk about Debian, many of the things they talk about as being significant and important are things that I articulated in the second DPL election platform that I wrote the year that I actually got elected. And there are things like the importance of internationalization, the use of the universal operating system as a meme for the project. I'm not the one who came up with that phrase, but I elevated it in my DPL platform that year and it's been around forever. And one other stupid little thing is that when I was the Debian project leader, I started a habit of writing bits from the DPL and where the bits thing came from is a very long story. But it amuses me now every time I see a status report from some Debian team that says bits from because that's something I introduced to the project. Sorry, that was actually four. I totally understand, it must be very hard for you to pick something like in your 24 years of history working in the community. There are certainly moments that are even more infamous to the crowd, but they're not necessarily things I'm proud of. So I know the audience will have more questions for you, but I have like all the topic questions a little bit. So you said that you travel so much, but this is your first time in Taiwan. Do you have any goal that you want to achieve during this trip or getting a partner for the rock history companies or something that you want to achieve? Right now I'm just trying not to melt. After that, we'll figure it out. Actually, I'm very excited to be here because I've had lots of business relationships over the years with companies in Taiwan and I don't actually know. I can't really understand how it is that I never had a reason to travel here, but it's been very interesting already and I'm looking forward to some of the things we'll see on the day trips and so on. Thank you. Okay, so let's move on to the next question. What do you see as current challenges in the community and do you have any idea suggestion for better scaling and sustainability? Who would like to start first? You can decide. I guess I can start. I think what I see in the community is gradually more diversity in the people that are represented inside the community and I think this is like really critical for the long-term sustainability of the project, having people from different backgrounds, from different viewpoints. I think the days where the average Debian developer was a 30-40-year-old Western male, are getting over and I think that's good. I hope this trend continues. To ask you, I just want to help you a bit here. The question is, you are an organizer of this DEF CON, so is there anything that the audience can help you during this week or anything that you want us to have for the upcoming? So if you're sticking around for the conference, please go to the DEF CON website, click on the volunteer link on the top of the website and sign up for some shifts and we'll be very grateful for you. I already shy of my shift, so please go look on the volunteer page. They do need more people to support. Yes. Can you repeat the question please? Okay, so what are the current challenges that you see in the community and you have any ideas to overcome the challenges? Okay, one of the big challenges, because I have noticed with the people that are normally in Guatemala is like probably it's really hard technically maybe to get to any commerce that are contributing in Debian. So probably we need a better infrastructure or better tools to get these people to get easier to contribute, because sometimes you have to jackshaving a lot of stuff, so that's the challenge I see in the community. Maybe we need more tools to get contributors easy and maybe now we are using GitLab in Salsa, so maybe we'll help better to get people to contribute with the packages. And how big is the Debian community there in Guatemala? Do you know? Well, in Hawaii it was a very big community, but the people start to work or having family. Now right now we are 2DDs there, but I'm the only active one, so basically it's just me. So do you meet up from time to time or how do you get connected with other people? Well, right now just I RC, that's kind of the problem, because there are the software industry over there is more like private private private software Microsoft is pushing a lot in the university, so people is not using Linux at all, so it's really really hard to combine people to show them, because they are like all money money or something like that, so they are not contributing for for passion or something. Yeah, so it's the same question we have in Asia, but maybe the audience could have could help us later on. The challenge, the people should share the current status of each other. It probably becomes a chance for the contribution. People should not shout about the idea of the package name, talk about the current program of the package, your translation or website or event, talk about anything in the current state and another challenge is many in Japan, many younger people says, Archie is cool, Debian is not, so we should make Debian cool again. Yeah, so I could talk all day about challenges, but one thing that I noticed, I was in Rwanda two weeks ago upgrading a computer lab there and all the young people, they only use their phones and tablets and this is the primary computer that they use and I've spoken to some locals in Taiwan and they say the same thing is happening here and if you're using Android then as your primary operating system then it's basically a consumer device, so you don't use your device to create and to make things, you just consume content, you watch videos, you download games and that's what your computer is about. So I think in the larger free software community we have a challenge to try to make mobile devices better for creating things and at least on Android you get fdroid now which is pretty cool, it's like Google Play but only contains free software and it's easy enough to use so that I can tell family and friends to install it and they can figure out how to install the apps from there, there are cells without any further involvement from my part, but there's a lot of things that's still difficult like just getting a good python environment on an Android device is quite difficult and I think projects like the Librim 5 which is a phone made by Purism that will basically Randebian will be great for many people who use a phone as a primary device and if that can at least support some level of of Android app compatibility then that will open up a huge world for people so I hope that because it's a pity for me that we're a universal operating system but we don't run on the most popular kind of computer that people have these days so it feels like something that really should be solved somehow or another I don't think there's any easy solution for it yet but I think it's something we can think about and talk about more often. Thank you. Among the challenges what I'm thinking of is on the human level sometimes we are a group of people when we see each other can work but sometimes when we are all in remote places we only address each other via mailing list or IOC and we come from various different places various different cultures and sometimes we forget it and we assume why is this person not thinking like me and sometimes we begin to fight with each other and it's not always all right but when we see each other in real life like this kind of event we remember that everyone around me is actually nice and I can have a real discussion and sometimes just based on the misunderstanding and we lose it so I just remember we are a diverse community and remember that we are human that's one of the challenges I think we are sometimes fighting against and we can improve and do better I hope. So it's sort of interesting being from the United States I sometimes think that the free software community in my country is disadvantaged in a way because so many of the large proprietary software companies are based in the US and this leads to a real inertia problem in industry and in the government to do things that are really in favor of free and open source software I also think sometimes we are handicapped by the fact that English is our primary language and English has this sort of horrible problem that the word free has multiple definitions and so when we talk about free software the difference between gratis and Libra is hard to explain to people and this led to the whole creation of the term open source is a sort of alias but not really for free software and it's led to a lot of discussion a lot of confusion over time and when I think about you know what would it take to make Debian cool again and what would it take to cause Debian to show up on all the mobile devices in the world I think in order to get there you know we have to somehow figure out how to make sure that our mission and our messages and the things that we're focusing on stay fresh without losing sight of the original sort of fundamental set of objectives that the people who started and put a lot of early energy into this project cared about and if you go back and read the Debian manifesto or if you look at the social contract or you think about the free software foundations for freedoms all of those things are even more important today than they ever have been in the past and yet it's really really easy for some of those fundamental values to get lost in the noise because there's so much going on and so many things that we're all talking about and so I worried that somehow with so much stuff being worked on that we have so many things to talk about that we forget sometimes the importance of focusing on some of those core original values which are still I believe a really significant part of why Debian can and should and must continue to exist. Thank you very much so I just want to do a quick sum up about the ideas about I hope here to overcome the challenges so diversity is a good thing to get like open up to more people to join the community and then we talk about the tool that have developed to engage to work with the project and also how to motivate people yeah different way different suggestion not only about money but you know that it's not direct money but people could be motivated in the way to work in the project and it leads to more opportunity for them in the future is something that we can go around like send out message and then we have something to create a good environment where people can meet more often face-to-face discussion is always good and then we want Debian to run on more mobile devices and what I have here so then finally we have be there talking about whatever we do we need to have a clear vision and we need to to focus on our core values not like to too many different project and finally just one last question before we open up the floor to the audience if you could change one thing what what would that be yeah just one okay so if it's to do it doesn't matter if it's too difficult to answer this question then I would like to open the floor to to the audience we have about six minutes for you to interact with the panelists when you asked the question was what's the most difficult buck you fixed I'm I do not remember but I remember the most difficult buck I was able to put on somebody else which was an outreach student and she took two weeks for this but it was really cool I'm probably able to have taken longer and she reported on the depth on it and I think it's more spreading the workloads to to young people is also something I remember more lively than maybe other things I needed to fix any other question or some idea so how do you you can reach out to more people like in Guatemala if people young people nowadays care about having a good job and earn more money so how do we motivate them to contribute into a free software project any idea we have a very big idea it's just sometimes the needs are very very local and very very specific to the people involved so I remember hearing a story about getting grandmothers learning grandmothers learning how to code motivated by their need to have access to photos of their families who are far away so it was just photo management and so they were motivated to do that just a little thing but I think it exposes a principle of solving the need presented by the people who you're trying to help maybe ideas to attract people before they are and at the age that they need money because if you talk to kids they it's usually easier to relate to express them our values and why we think free software is important and since they don't have to think about money yet then they can already share some values with us because if we wait until they are young new professionals then it's more difficult yeah I totally agree with you so recently I visited a high school in Vietnam in Hanoi and I was really surprised at most of the students there you are clean up you know most of the people in the university even university didn't actually they all use windows but they went to high school they actually started to use Linux already at a very young age so it's a very good suggestion to reach out to younger generation and it's the job of teacher like you so more people should become teacher and bring free software idea into school or even your kids and raise you have kids right okay I saw a few children here I hope they all become DBA contributors in the future any more question for our panelists over here please to the previous question about what can we do to sort of bridge the goals of financial incentive and and also helping the community that actually at our company Hudson River trading we do summer internships for college students and this year what we did was just paid college students to fix open source bugs so now they get a feather in their cap for the resume they get some experience maybe we hire them to do general purpose development but at the same time give back you know to the community to the people for some things that were requested in the first place I I think the main challenge in like bringing new people inside the beyond is that we have a strong culture of scratching on each so basically we welcome people that want that have an issue and want to fix it inside the project we are starting to shift towards having a few lists of things that people could do but we don't really have time to do but this is like a very very marginal part of the project there's the for instance in the bug tracking system there's a newcomer attack that maintainers can use to mark bugs as being fixable and buy newcomers and basically they're offering mentorship to get the bugs fixed but this is really a very very tiny part of the issues that the project has and it's been a challenge for a few years to get actual internship subjects for the outreach team I don't know how to fix it mentorship I actually I have a question about how do you practice mentorship here in the Indian community I know that Jonathan wrote an article about you got your boss to play a very good mentor in the beginning so how is it here so I think the main the main area where there's mentorship in the beyond is packaging we have a few processes that are in place to actually get people to well maintain new packages or update existing packages I think there's some initiatives around the beyond science as well mentorship of the month is that still running so that's not from the beginning probably we are doing this is mentoring of the month and I get three to four people finishing one package per year so starting from scratch and to ready package and frequently these are upstream developers who learn packaging and then they are most competent people way more than we ourselves and this is I really try to propagate this because other teams could do this as well any other question so we have time for one more question I totally agree that they've been used more young people to join so I am here I'm just challenging when they've been come through a rules that encourage diversity people to join deepcon over 35 years old that that rule needs to change to add one rule if the diversity people under 35 years it's also welcome yes you're right okay everyone so we have come to the end of our panel please a big round of applause for our panelists here big round of applause please thank you very much for sharing your story your experience and thank you the audience for your participation again final reminder please go to the website on the volunteer page and sign up for some shit thank you very much