 Hello, fan. Thank you so much for watching this video. Today I have the honor of sitting down with Joni Evans, one of the co-presidents of the Federation of Gay Games. Joni, welcome. Thank you so much for sitting with me. My pleasure. My pleasure. I know you have an insanely busy schedule, so I appreciate you taking the time out really to sit down. And for probably a lot of my followers who aren't even aware that gay games existed, I didn't know it was a thing until a year and a half ago. OK. So I'd like to start just with a little bit of background on you and your life and your involvement in sports. OK. Well, I grew up in Birmingham, which is like the second city in the UK. So and growing up, there wasn't a lot of opportunities for me to play the sports I wanted to play. Football was my sports soccer on the other side. So in the UK for girls, there wasn't the opportunity to play after a certain age because it was football was banned for women for about 100 years because after the war, women used to play football. When the men went off the war, the women were playing football. And then when the war ended, the FA, the Football Association, banned women saying it wasn't the sport for women. And it sort of taken like 100 years, like the recent euros that we had in the UK was like, there was a lot of information came out about the banning and whatever because there was a lot of women who continued to play, you know, in secret, in secret. How bizarre to not be able to play a sport. Yeah, because the first England women's team, they played without the permission of the FA and they only recently got their original cap. They got the caps for their game. So in terms of that, it's like women, women have never been stopped by playing whatever sports they have, but it's actually getting a recognition for playing the game, which is another thing. So in terms of that, I never felt that I had the opportunity to play football as I was growing up. So when I came out, I came out when I was 25 and it was like, well, I wanted to be doing something. And then I knew I wanted to do football and but was how I was going to do it. Because at the time I was playing netball, which was more acceptable. So and netball, it's a it's a bit like basketball, but you can't keep bouncing the ball. And it's quite a national sport in the UK and Australia as well. So it's now become more professional. But that's always been the go to female sport in the UK when the men had their go to sports football. So and so now it was like, so I came out at 25. I wanted to do something. I wanted something recreational that I did. So I found a team of women that I assumed were all lesbian because somebody told me it was a lesbian team. And so in playing, but in the times that we were playing in our in our leagues and stuff because we were relatively out anyway. And we weren't afraid of being expressing who we are. You were not afraid? No, no, we weren't at that time. Because the moment I came out, it's like, yes, I found myself. And was there danger in that though? Not not on the women's side, really, because it was more that that gay men had more because people didn't recognize lesbians. You know, you're talking about the late 80s, early 90s. There was no laws against being a lesbian, but there was laws for men and stuff like that. So in terms of that, it wasn't. But it was really just thinking that for my team, we just wanted to be out because we were getting so much abuse like homophobia, racism from other teams because we just, it didn't matter if we won or lost, we just wanted to play the game. And so we thought, well, if we're going to get a lot of stick because people saying, I'm making fun of us being lesbian, we might as well own that and say, right, we're lesbian, so what? Yeah, the less you have to lose, the easier it is to just say, f it. So we did get a lot of flack from the league and stuff around stuff that we did. And, but, you know, we played in like East, East London in Hackney, on Hackney Marshes, and, you know, so we were very much a grassroots team. And in terms of that, we became the, once we decided we were going to come out, we then had to change our constitution, we had the code of conduct. And in terms of that, it's really, and we couldn't say we were totally out, we had to say we were predominantly lesbian because we didn't realize at the time that at least one or two women were straight. Oh, yeah. So, and it's more about our team being accessible for everybody. So it's like, it's as long as there's a woman that wanted to play sport, they had to come with the understanding that the team was predominantly lesbian. So everybody was welcome. So, yeah. And so am I correct in stating that that was like the first of its kind in the UK? It was. Yeah, we always thought that we were first in the world. And I was telling everybody we were the first to out team in the world because we didn't know of any other teams until we actually went to the gay games. And then it was really then we found out there was a team in Australia called the Flying Bats. And then we're saying, well, when did you come out? And it turns out there's only like a month's difference between both teams coming out in the same year. So I said to them, well, you can have the world and we'll have Europe because teams from Europe don't really travel too far. So we could live with that and that was fine. But it was a good time for us to do that as well. A significant accomplishment regardless. And even today, because when they had the women's euros, I was called upon. I've done like a video for the FA talking about my experience of playing grass roots, football and where it's led me to, which has led me to be the co-president of the gay games. So it's actually having that is showing like where women has taken their sport over the years. And it was really great to be part of that because it meant that the history of my team is now in the annuals of the FA when they would give us such a hard time in the beginning. So yeah. Okay, so while you're playing on this team, you also happened to be the team was part of a documentary called Running Gay. Yes. Can you tell me a little bit about that? Yeah. The woman that actually did it, she'd already had two people that were in the film already. There was a male athlete and a female athlete, both were white. And it was a view that they wanted somebody grass roots, I mean. So, and for something else that was, you know, because it was a team sport that was showing a different aspect. So they had the guy that was there, he was like, I think a triathlete. So he did several sports and he was gonna be attending the Vancouver Gay Games. And the woman, she was a long distance runner. So she did long distance running. This was in the 90s? Yes. Okay. So it was then, so basically she came along, filmed my team, she came and filmed us. I had to do a special coaching session so that they could see that they came and filmed it at Gay. How did that feel knowing that you were gonna be a part of something that was that widely distributed on media? I didn't even realize what it was gonna do. Cause it got shown at the first thing, the time I saw the whole thing together, it was shown at the lesbian and gay film festival that was on that year in London. And then it was shown on national television cause they used to have a gay streaming program. And at the time, cause I lived in Hackney and it's a predominantly black area. You're not really sure how it is. If you're not street wise and stuff. And the day after it was shown, I was standing at a bus stop and this black guy came up to me and he goes, you was on Italian and I was thinking, oh my God, what's he gonna say? Yeah. And then he went, he went cool and he fist bumped me. And then I knew it was like, it was just like, the thing is, is that if you, the most that you fear and it doesn't happen like that, it just really changes your, how perspective that people think. And I think if somebody is a perfect stranger that somebody that I thought it might have a different, a negative reaction to get a positive reaction from that just meant that there was no fear then about it. But what it did, it really highlighted our team and what we were doing. And, you know, our membership just grew. Like we were one team and then we like have three teams. And you're talking about 30 odd years ago, my team is still going. They still followed the same ethos. At the moment, I wish they did more because I sort of carried them and I'd want them to carry themselves. But, you know, the thing about having exposure is to make it less for anybody else coming up behind you. Because at the time, we weren't the only lesbian team in London. There were other lesbian teams, but none of them was as vocal as my team. So we would sing everywhere where we went. And like, after doing that film, is that's when we found out about the gay games. And it was like, we're gonna go to the gay games. And so my team, we took two teams to the gay games, thinking we were the only team from the UK going and that nobody else knew about the gay games apart from us. And then when we, because my first games was New York. So when we arrived in New York, we found out there was another women's team from England that we knew and there was a men's team, their Stonewall men's team were there. And then we found there was other athletes. So there was a quite a small group of a contingent from the UK that none of us had met each other before that we knew we were there in New York. And it was the best experience. So in a way, gay games kind of brought the visibility within the community to know that you're out there. Yeah. I think one of the things about the gay games is that you don't, when you're in your own bubble in your own town and city and you don't know that there's this big event that happens every four years, that is part of what you do on an everyday basis at home and you can go and showcase what you've been doing all that time. It's just a huge, I don't know, I can't explain how it is but it is such a, it made such a difference to my life knowing that whatever I wanted to do, there it was. And it was how can I get involved in that and do more and what would it mean to be part of that? And that led you to becoming the co-president. Well, you're talking there's been many years in between that from 1994 to eight years ago. But I think because I was never part of any city teams or whatever and in the UK, we never did a lot of things. So for me personally, it was very much an individual thing, my involvement with the federation. I used to go to meetings as observers, pay my own way just to be there to hear what was going on. I'd be do committee work. That's what I did this time. And that was my way in to see how it was. And then there was a time when I took some time out and I wasn't involved in the federation at all. But I never was there as a delegate for any particular, the only time I was as a delegate was in 2006 and it was because somebody had asked me to go in their place. It was a guy called Ivan Bussins and he was, he had terminal cancer and we had connected in Chicago and he was saying, look, there's loads of things that we do and I want you to be involved in, you know, Team UK for us to sort of like do bits and pieces as a yes, I'm on it. And then he couldn't go to the meeting, the Arga that was in Leon. And then he asked me if I'd go in his place. And it was at that time that the federation introduced the role for a specific female role for the female vice president of diversity. And so with people that were there, I had some guys from Germany, one of the German teams are saying, go for it, go for it. I was going, no, and I was really shy thinking, I can't do that. I don't know enough to put myself in that position. And they encouraged me. And then I phoned Ivan who was in hospital and I said, what do I do? And he goes, go for it, go for it. And the thing is, is having somebody that believes you're new enough that they want you to go for something that would make such a difference, not just to the organization, but to yourself. But at the time it was difficult to, the post was for a year and then it was gonna start on a two year term, but I only did it for a year because I didn't feel confident enough to take it on. It was at a time I didn't have a home computer and all of that. And it's like, it just seemed really daunting at that time to take on something on such a vast scale on an international level and be responsible for people's diversity. It was a bit daunting. So. And now here you are? Yeah. But being co-president came about because London did the bid for 2018 and weren't successful. And at a time there was a vacancy for the co-president. And they asked me if I'd do it and I was thinking, why me? I did say to them is it was because I was black because there wasn't any diversity on the board at the time and I made them feel uncomfortable for about a few seconds. But it's not really that, it's people within the Federation would look on the commitment that you give over the years and whether or not you do big things or little things, people do watch you and they do listen and they do make comments everywhere else. So I know that I'm in this role because of the work that I had put in before because people don't take people on the board lightly, especially a co-presidency position. And in the beginning I didn't feel like I could do it but for me it's all of what I've believed in all of the years and now I've got the platform to say that I want to be there to be the voice for the person who like me didn't know about the gay games, like me didn't know that I could play any sport that I wanted. You know, opportunities are out there not just to do a sport but all different manners, coaching, managing. You know, trying to get people involved you don't have to be a sports person because there's all background stuff that still needs to be done and it's important. Well, I find that oftentimes the leadership determines the culture of an organization and being an outsider and coming to the aga for the first time in any gay games related event at all. I find that between you and Sean, yes, you have your wealth of experience and your knowledge but your energy, you also have a very generous spirit. You're open, kind, big hearted and so coming to the aga and witnessing that is it makes me want to be here so I think that's great. I think it's that, you know, we want to be an open organization because my main focus is that our board reflects the membership we serve because if we can do that we know what our membership needs and we can continue to give them a good service. I think one of the things is that I love our board. We all get on, we all have the same, the makeup of the board is that we all have the same feeling, the same idea about what we want and we are very much here for the participants. We're here so that whatever we're producing every four years is going to be acceptable for whoever comes, they're going to have the best time. Nobody knows what goes on in the background, it's like we're like gray-haired and pulling teeth and you know what I mean, all of those happen but then we know that nobody, that would never be reflected in the games because somebody would have the best time. We have a new officer at large and he was in the last games and I'm telling, no, Marquis, Marquis, yeah. He was in Paris and then it was like, I'm selling him all the horror stories of Paris and they're going, I never saw any of that. I said exactly because that's the experience. We don't take any negativity that happens in trying to get things done. That is never, we never get that reflected to our participants because it's about them having the greatest experience that they can have. Okay, so to sidestep for a moment, why a gay games and why not just the Olympics? The Olympics is there, there's other world competitions. So what's the need specifically for the gay games? Well, the thing is, is that I think Tom Wendall had the right idea because he was an Olympian and he was in Mexico and he felt that he wanted to bring the same sort of thing to the community. I mean, in the beginning it was called the Gay Olympics but the USIOC wouldn't let us keep the name and they bought Tom Wendall to court for the name to be removed. So they had all of the medals, banners, everything said, gay Olympic is on there to go and cross everything off. As if they have the legal right to own something that's been around for thousands of years. But if you're thinking about 1982 and what the world was like around HIV, AIDS, the gay community, so in terms of that, the USIOC didn't want to be associated with that because at the time, you know, there was like the Petal Olympic, the Petal Olympics, there was all different Olympics and they never got anything but the Gay Olympics, that was it. I mean, now it's stigma. But now the relationship, we could use it, do you know what I mean? But it's gone so far beyond just like what would be the benefit. We run exactly the same type of event. It's quadrennally, it happens every four years, the Olympics happen every four years. It's a multi-sport event. The Olympics is a multi-sport event. Although we probably do more because we also have arts and culture because we are reflecting the whole of our community. And then it's like, if you look at the number of participants, the Gay Games has more participants than the Olympics. But obviously we don't have the same risk. In the spirit of inclusion. Yeah, yeah. But we don't have the same prestige, money, you know, or whatever. So it's because we're a voluntary run organization, our board is fully voluntary. And we're gonna change that. Yeah, of course, of course, yes. We're looking for paid stuff. Any sponsors out there, please. We're gonna work on that. Yeah. But yeah, my thing is that if we can generate our own money, we can do a lot more because it's not just about producing the games at the end of four years. It's the work that we do in the run-up to that and how we promote ourselves, how we engage the community. How do we engage more women? How do you get more young people? You know, we say that are the only thing that you need to attend the Gay Games. The only qualification you need to be is 18. But we also recognize that there's people under 18 maybe 16 to 18 that we can get involved because it's at those crucial ages before they reach adulthood that there's nothing for young people. We're very much aware of young suicides and stuff like that because there's no outlet. And it's how can we change people's attitudes? Because if you start going at people under 18, it becomes, people make it sorted when it's relation to the gay community. And whereas we're trying to say we've got young people who don't know of confusion about their sexuality, their identity and all of that. And what the Gay Games gives anybody is a place just to breathe. You know, it's that thing when if you're at home and you can't be out and you've got to be cagey about it, you go to the Gay Games and it's like all gay abandoned basically. You know, you can be your true authentic self and that's the main focus of the Gay Games. It's a sense of normalcy without it necessarily being focused on being gay. It's, you're there to be an athlete and you happen to be gay, that's celebrated. That is exactly it. And that's the thing. It's just about being your true authentic self. And people can't be that where they are in certain instances. But you know, I make a point of being my true authentic self in everything I do because I know that people look to say, I want to be that person. People say that they can be. You know, it's like that saying, you've got to be the person that you want them to be. And it's like, I think it was Gandhi saying, you know, we'd be the change. Well, I can't remember the word in his, but you know what, that sort of thing. You know, if people don't see it themselves, then they don't know what possibilities are out there. And I think over the years, I don't even know half of the things that I've done and what I've done, but I keep hearing things and, you know, people say things to me, but I'm just doing what I feel is a natural thing in my life because I would never want anybody to go through what I went through about not having any knowledge. I had no knowledge. I grew up in Birmingham, the second city is like, it might as well been in the boondocks or whatever because the city wasn't aware of anything. I didn't know of lesbians till I was 25. You know, new gay men were there, but nothing about being a lesbian. And so for me, it was like the first time that I was in control of my own destiny in my own life. And that I wasn't going to let anybody be in a position where they were in silence and didn't have an outlet. So. Do you have to be on a team to compete? No. No, when I played in New York, I played with Hackney and for me, I went to my first, I went to Chicago Games as an individual player. I put my name in to say I'm looking for a team. I got picked up by some women that played in Dallas, Texas. I had a fabulous time. I met new people. Individually, if you play a team sport and you're on your own, you put your name in a hat and somebody will pick you up from another team because not everybody can have a full team. Some people may. And those sports were, it's not even a team. Yeah. No, some teams are made up because if there's, I think in Paris, they had people and because there was enough people that had said they were playing soccer, they made up a soccer team of all those spare people. You could, you meet people from all over the world and even as an individual and doing an individual sport, if you go on your own, you make so many friends. I've got friends all over the world. It's just incredible at the experience that you get that it's, yeah, it's more than I can imagine that it could be in any instance, yeah. Okay. So in that same vein, what words of encouragement do you have for someone who is watching this, never heard of the gay games until now, is interested, but it's still a little hesitant, reticent to either participate or attend. Well, obviously, I mean, you've got not very good website, but you could probably look on our website. But I think it's trying to find out where the teams or if there's a team in your area, because say it's more easy in America because Americans have been a bit more aware of the gay games than most of the world. But in terms of that, it's trying to find where your local groups are. That might be a start, but it's also for us at the gay games, people can contact us if they wanna get in contact with local teams or we can be a first protocol. We've got contact at gaygames.net if people have any questions. We can get people in touch with, if there's somebody in their area, we can get them in touch there. People wanna help us. We've got loads of work that we're doing. People don't have to be part of any sort of team or group because we've got loads of work that we're doing on a year-by-year basis. That's great because for me, even my first question, because the physique bodybuilding is not gonna be available for 2023. However, there's powerlifting. I've never done powerlifting. So my initial reaction is, okay, what are the logistics? What do I need to wear? What does the process look like? So knowing that- We could get you in contact with whoever runs the powerlifting thing. And that's through the website. Yeah. I mean, I can tell you now because Adrian's here. Yeah, I'm saying for the folks at home watching and thinking the same thing. Yeah, it means that we can be the first protocol for them to get in touch with whoever's part of their, whatever sport they're doing. In terms of that, if we know individuals, because if we know an individual, that individual we know will give that person anything that they want to get them involved because we're just always looking for people to help. We especially want women and young people because we are an ageing board. And it's really to get people involved in that way. So you don't have to do it as a city team. I don't have a city team that I follow. We have out for sport in London, but I'm not really part of them. I'm just an entity on my own. But there are ways of getting involved. And if we don't know it yet, unless we know what people want, we can't know how we're gonna give it to them. So first protocol, you can go through our contacts at gaygames.net. And feel free to questions in the comments, wherever this is posted, feel free and I'll do my best to link you as well. Yeah, cause we can answer anything. And part of it is that we want to know people are asking us questions cause we don't know what is wanted cause then we can do better or do more or go look at a different area that we could. I mean, we're really nice to know how we can engage younger people into our organization, especially if they don't know about it. It'd been really nice to know what young people are looking for in an agency like ours. I mean, I know it's called the gay games, but people need to look at our mission because our mission statement says a lot more about what we do. But it is that thing, is that we welcome anybody to assist us. Okay. Yeah. Is there anything else that we haven't discussed that you'd like to share? No, it's just that we've got two coasts, hostly, personal and registered. If people want registrations are open for both the games and in Hong Kong and Guadalajara. And then we've got our next gay games in Valencia in 2026. So there's lots of opportunities to participate. Is there a hard deadline for registrations? I think, no. I think for registrations now they're open. We're more than likely to take registrations up to day of events because it's really about making people, it's about inclusion. Yeah. So that's great. Everything that we do is either that, it's really around trying to make sure that we do everything so that people can participate, do everything that people can be included and we do everything to make people be able to do their personal best. Okay, great. Please come, say hi. Well, thank you so much for sitting down and having this conversation with me. I know this is so valuable for everybody watching. It's my pleasure. I mean, the thing is, we want people to know that we are a welcoming organization and that people can come to us for everything and we want people to know about us anyway. So anytime, if you need me to come and speak again, I'm quite happy. Yes, and I was going to say that I would love to follow up with you throughout the year. If questions come up for my followers, we can maybe deep dive a little bit. I'll be happy to do that. Okay, fantastic. Thank you. All right, thank you. All right. See you. It's very important for me to be out as a lesbian because that's part of me. And I think because I enjoy football so much, if I can't give myself to football, the whole of myself to football, then I wouldn't feel comfortable and feel comfortable at all about me being a lesbian. So I have to be out as such. I don't sort of go around jumping around saying, oh, I'm a lesbian, look at me. But it's like, you know, people ask me, I'd say yes, I am.