 When I posted the snippet, it wasn't with the goal of releasing a song. It was like I found a YouTube instrumental like from the song and I just recorded something over it. It was an idea I had and then an hour later I recorded it and posted it. Like it wasn't a planned thing. When you haven't figured yourself out as an artist yet and you haven't fully developed a fan base who like is really you know connected to you and what you're making, then there isn't that much that a label can offer you because they're not gonna give you you know millions of dollars of marketing and all of this you know personnel support to blow up the thing that you post. Like if you are early in signing a label deal what you're doing is they're like we're gonna have you in-house in case you blow up and then we're gonna do all this stuff for you. Early on I'd be going to these meetings and it's kind of like the conversation is like okay cool what are you gonna post on TikTok? What are you gonna do? They're just asking me what I'm gonna do to you know promote all this music. I'm like wait what am I talking to y'all for? What's up? What's up? What's up? I'm Brian Manshawn and I'm Cory and we are back with another episode of No Labels Necessary Podcast. You can catch us every Tuesday, every Thursday on YouTube, Spotify, Apple Music wherever you stream your podcasts here at the intersection of creativity and currency and as you know we love to bring on guests who have something to offer insight. They're doing something different and today we have on an independent artist, a dope artist by the name of Paul Russell. Appreciate you pulling up man well actually allowing us to pull up my bag. You guys are welcome, welcome anytime. Yeah thanks for having me. Well man there's a lot of things that I would love to talk to you about today you know like because obviously you've had this wave on TikTok you're you know almost at two million monthly listeners but of course we got to get some backstory so you know you're wait from the cater you know want to claim you all right but the catered judge but you moved to Dallas early on and now you are here in LA. Now obviously there's a lot of artists that come to LA but like were you creating music in Dallas as you you know came up and what was it like then what was your inspiration early on? It was it's weird because I mean I definitely think my music has changed a lot over time like back then you know there's like a big like folk music kind of scene in the Dallas area and so I grow up going to all these folk shows and I was listening to a lot of that kind of stuff and so I would make you know I got a ukulele because this girl had a ukulele and she was pretty cool and I was like you know trying to spit game and so I get a ukulele. You're all pretty cool man. And so I started playing with that and just like making little songs and then I you know I went out to college and I started to you know think about the music that was being made in Atlanta being made you know back indicator you know and feeling like how can I kind of bridge the gap between this kind of folk stuff where I'm playing the ukulele and I'm singing and this you know hip-hop stuff that I'm really interested in that you know my family is listening to that that I'm really connecting with from you know a culture perspective and so yeah yeah so it kind of shifted over time and but but yeah by the time I got to college it was just a lot of trial and error of trying to do both of those things justice in the same type of song and then I think that's that's kind of what I was trying to do as well when I came out here to LA but I think there's there's just so much in LA that inspires me and I think those two pieces plus the kind of LA vibe of like it's sunny outside it's summer it's like a feel good place I think those three elements together is kind of what created the sound that I I'd say I have now though. What's it like to work on combining sounds? Is it intentional or did it just organically happen? I think yeah I think it organically happened you know like the first time I ever made music I made I made some folk stuff and I made some hip-hop stuff and it was like those are two separate worlds and I'm just you know playing to the two sides of myself but I think over time I would start making one type of song and then it would just feel like oh okay like I can go into this you know it's like okay I'm singing but now I'm rapping because it's like I'm used to doing both of those things and so that's kind of how it started to happen but then I think over time you know you start to realize oh you know maybe there's a lane here and then it became like let me try to figure out how to weave it all together which I think TikTok helped a lot with that as well like because you get to just test stuff out with people you know like I would I did a thing on TikTok where I was like remixing songs like I take a song that's already popular and then I'd find an instrumental to it and then I'd like wrap a verse on it and so with that I have to try out a bunch of different types of music like as the instrumentals and you know think through okay what would I do here how would I you know and I think that also played a big role in figuring out what the sound is and like where the intersection lies between the two or the three kind of worlds I'm in like and how to communicate that you know sonically yeah that's really interesting because you know obviously there's been a lot of pushback about TikTok from artists or even having to create content but then of course you see the ones take advantage and you say oh man this is a great space where you can build an audience without having to like spend a lot of cash right yeah but then even this practicality of finding my sound or testing and not just testing a song like we talk about that even as marketers but like I'm testing what type of song I want to be on and seeing the audience's reaction I haven't really heard that before can you go deeper into like maybe a specific song or just multiple songs of how like the things you observed and that kind of gave you that direction in that process yeah yeah yeah yeah because I remember when I first started doing the remix thing I think one of the first remixes I did was like it was a hip-hop song and because that was what I thought like okay um you know I like making the hip-hop stuff and you know that he was like like what's popping or something and I was like okay I'll take the beat and I'll rap on it you know and then I think you know that did decent and like people connected with it but it just felt like okay how can I keep doing the same thing but with stuff that's maybe more surprising and I think a lot of it came out of that and so I remember uh doing some like pop records like some some Dua Lipa songs where you know I would same thing and it kind of felt like okay like maybe the maybe my voice and the sort of cadences that I you know go to mentally when I'm writing something work well with the kind of pop thing and then it's like I did some you know I did some like country stuff a couple times I did you know I think one of the ones that did the best was it was like I took a Disney song and it was like uh won't say I'm in love from like the Hercules movie and I like I just added it's a good movie and the soundtrack is goaded like it's undefeated it's so good and so yeah I just I took the instrumental and I added some trap drums on it and I just wrapped over that and like that was like my first big moment on on tiktok and yeah I think from that I started to feel like at least like okay people are okay with me taking risks from an instrumental perspective like and so I think that gave me the freedom to be like okay let me try to make an actual song that you know I'm not making songs that sound like Disney songs but I it's like I know that I can try something new and it can connect with people okay and I think to some degree what I started to realize was that like if the stuff that I'm saying and the way that I'm saying it is very like you know it's got some swag to it it's like rooted in like culture and it's uh it feels familiar and it feels like it feels like hip-hop but it's also melodic like doing that sort of thing on top of any beat even if it's a really weird beat like has the potential to connect with people and I think making that realization for me is what freed me for just trying a bunch of new things with like you know from a production standpoint when I started making stuff that I'd release um so yeah I guess that's how I saw it I think it's not necessarily the case that I hopped on a song and I was like man I want to make something exactly like this song so I can drop it and I'm you know blah blah blah it was more like okay I know the sorts of risks I'm able to take and I know what people you know like about you know whatever I make got you got you yeah that's a dope insight man like just to hear you go through that process it sounds like you're pretty I mean it's like you're you've you straddle those sides well of like being free like taking risks having that artist side but then still being a little bit of analytical on at the same time yeah are you deep into the stats and the analytics like hey how's this doing and I got a post a certain amount of times a week like what's your process I mean on TikTok and stuff like that I'll pay attention to the analytics like I've had seasons where it's like bro I'm like looking every day I'm like okay what did this do they stop watching at two seconds or you know whatever but honestly a lot of that didn't necessarily help me to make better stuff I think it's like I think I am very much looking at like trial and error of like okay this went well what do I think did well about it like why did people connect with this video as opposed to that video or this song as opposed to that song and then I'll just try to think through that when I make another thing like I definitely think like biggest learning for me early on was that like having something that either I say something that captures your attention or there's some like aspect of the song that I'm posting that connects with the audience like that helps so much like I think the remix things work because it would be a song that oh I know that song and so now the get you know and whenever I would write my own music and release that I start to learn like okay if I write a song and the first sentence that I say in the song is a sentence that someone's used to hearing or something that they would expect to hear in a song then maybe they're gonna swipe but if I say something that you know is clever or something that you've never heard before then that's gonna make you go oh what did you have to say you know so like I think a lot of it's been figuring out that makes so much sense because the first thing I think about actually two things that we we can't we didn't we talked about these artists right so hello Christ I'm about to send again right fly in a boss and then we talked about the uh you brought up uh what's his name central c right and we all know how that's all so the first time you hear you gotta right so that that makes a lot of sense it's almost it's like thinking of the first line as a hook yeah yeah yeah absolutely absolutely when you because I sat down one day and similarly I looked at all the songs that have blown up on tiktok for the past couple of years and it felt like every single one of them almost like 90% of them the first line was something that I was not expecting to hear at least you know which yeah it seems like that's a lane for sure so are you taking into your current song writing like do you do you go into certain songs thinking like okay I need to have a part of make sure I have a line that's hitting them hard out the gear or something yeah yeah definitely and I think like it's a thing also where I'm learning how to do that because I think you know I think I've I've started to incorporate that into music which has been a benefit but I've also started to realize like okay that's not the only way to you know like the song right now that like I put a post up about it and it's growing a lot it doesn't say anything that crazy in the I mean I guess you my little boo thing is not like I guess it's it's different but it's not like whoa what is he talking about you know but I think the fact of the sort of beat that it's on and the fact that it's something that it sounds unexpected as a total package like I think yeah yeah so I don't know I think about it all but I think it's just a process of trying to learn what applies to what song and how you apply it yeah okay that sample how do you get a sample like that that's a classic classic so it's like was that hard to clear or so I mean we're still like when I posted the snippet it wasn't with the goal of releasing a song it was like I found a youtube instrumental uh like from the song and I just recorded something over it and I it was just like a fun thing like I it was an idea I had and then an hour later I recorded it and posted it like it wasn't a planned thing and then now on the back end we're going through the process of clearing it and like we've made a lot of progress and so I think it's gonna be I think I think we're gonna be set um but yeah yeah it's just a thing where like I was lucky that this video blew up at a time where I already had like a management team and like labels who I was talking to and like connections in the music industry and so it's like okay this is working now all these people are willing to help turn this into a real song whereas if I you know that would have blown up a year ago it wouldn't have you know I wouldn't have had any avenue to get it cleared you mentioned labels you're not signed yet why is that I mean I I think I think signing too early is well I think on one level signing too early is a bad idea oftentimes because you haven't really figured yourself out as an artist yet and you know I mean I think everyone has their moment where it's the right time but I think when you haven't figured yourself out as an artist yet and you haven't fully developed a fan base who like is really you know connected to you and what you're making then there isn't that much that a label can offer you because they're not gonna give you you know millions of dollars of marketing and all of this you know personnel support to you know blow up the thing that you post like if you are early in signing a label deal what you're doing is they're like we're gonna have you in-house in case you blow up and then we're gonna do all this stuff for you you know and so it's like I'd be early on I'd be going to these meetings and it's kind of like the conversation is like okay cool what are you gonna post on tiktok what are you gonna do they're just asking me what I'm gonna do to you know promote all this music I'm like wait what am I talking to y'all for and then you know and so like I think like over time as like music has grown for me the conversations have changed you know and and it's like the conversation has turned into like oh okay there is a radio angle for this or that or you know they're talking about oh maybe you can hop on this person's tour hop on that person's tour or like oh we can connect you this artist that you know we think you'd be really good with you know so it's like once you've built up that fan base and that brand to a certain point then it starts to become useful because they see the value and actually putting resources behind it you know all right so I want to give a reminder that being independent it's not just about not being signed to a label it's actually making money without being signed to a label being able to have a sustainable career and for those of y'all who actually want to be able to make money from your fan base you're serious about figuring out how to monetize I have a free video that you can check out I don't need your email I don't need your phone number I don't need any information all you have to do is go to www.nolabelsnecessary.com slash monetize and I'm going to show you the lies that artists have been told that have been keeping them proudly you too from monetizing your fan base and how shifting that perspective has allowed one artist we're working with to be on track to make over $500,000 this year this is a different era don't fall for that trap saying artists can't make money artists do not have to be broke so if you want to escape that trap go to www.nolabelsnecessary.com slash monetize you do have to make sure you put the www in the beginning when you type it in your URL and watch this free video again you're not going to be asked to put in your email you're not going to be asked for your phone number but it won't be up forever check it out yeah so so what are you because it doesn't sound like you're against signing to a label obviously like you don't sound like you know what's wrong with me we're like hyper independent in that regard right so like what are you looking for in this situation what would be the perfect situation for you yeah I mean I think the I think because of like the type of music that I make is very like I don't want to say it's pop but it's like pop leaning you know like I think it's it's music that you could hear on on on a radio it's it's music that like you know could get a you know sort of mechanical push like it could there could be a label behind it and it feels authentic and it feels like it works you know so like what I'm when I'm going into these conversations it is that it's like I want to be on someone's tour I want to be you know I want to be on the radio I want to get you know connected to certain opportunities that only labels will have I think a lot of it is just like connections of even if it's things that are kind of like random connections where they get reached out about hey there's this opportunity we're looking for artists at this festival or we're looking for you know an artist at this you know this movie this whatever it is it's like they do have those connections and it's kind of hard to specifically in the kind of pop leaning lane to to grow to you know of sizable size without that whereas you know in maybe in if you're like straight hip hop I think it's it lends itself more to the the like I'm independent thing and obviously if you become a superstar then you're going to want to sign a label but like I think yeah genres definitely matter in that it's funny we were just talking I think yesterday about how pop doesn't have an underground scene or it doesn't feel like pop has either you're nonexistent or you're at the top of it yeah do you feel that way like they're popping oh definitely yeah yeah that's definitely a thing yeah I mean I think it's I mean I think part of it is that it's the type of music that if it hits it hits you know what I mean like I think for better or for worse if you make music that feels like it's in kind of a pop lane it's harder to make the music connect with a specific niche it has to connect really broadly you know it's it's like you know because you're not like bro hey come on check out this new pop song that just dropped you know it's like yeah like it's it so like kind of part of the whole theme of the music is that it's like very like accessible and so you have to you know when you're making the music you you can't really be an underground pop artist or you're just I mean you can be that but you're just you're not able to like you you're in a box you're small you're you're like you you're trying you have to be trying to be a pop artist and you know I mean I guess that's it you just have to be trying to be the huge thing and there's not really in between because like the type of music that it is doesn't really connect that way yeah I would say it is though it feels like I guess the closest to pop on the ground is early tiktok stars right and what I have noticed about it is that you guys finally get to be unpolished in the way the other genres get to be unpolished right like rap is very known for that like they can go shoot something off a flip phone and you know what I'm saying have a hit hit crib next day but like pop art it's almost expected for you to come out as if you're already a successful artist to really capture people's attention like so do you feel like you're seeing the like the authenticity or even just some of that more unpolished up like connecting with the with the pop audience or you feel like it hits that side the same way it might hit the rap audience yeah I mean I think I think the authenticity part of it is huge and I think like like specifically on tiktok especially like the stuff where no matter what your genre is where it's you and the camera on a phone and you're able to really connect with people about the thing that you're making like that stuff performs really well you know so I think people I think you're right that it makes it the way that everything is set up now that you can have a direct relationship with your fans because of tiktok it makes it to where it's easier to have something grow without being super polished and I like that I mean for for me it's like I think the way that particularly we're talking about in pop music has been in the past is it only is like a label thing it's like you know you have to you have to be in a crazy music video on MTV and you have to be on you know every radio station but I think now even though there is still that like you're either big or you're small on your way up and even when you're big you're able to like have more touch points with your fans because there's not the pressure to only talk to them in these huge like polished things you know yeah yeah that makes sense it makes sense but so then I said before off camera we were having a conversation where you were saying you're working on leveling up your content you feel like it's time for you to kind of step into the more polished content right so if you're you you've seen results with the the lower quality content is obviously working for you what do that thought process come from like what made you go like hey now it's time for me to level this up and maybe go for a more polished look yeah I mean I think it's a mix right like I I don't think that the goal is to just have the polished stuff but I think what what I want to do is add in with the you know the iPhone stuff polish stuff just because like I think subconsciously when you see someone always like it's them and their phone it's them just chilling I think you see them as an up and coming person you see them as like I'm trying to make this thing work but if you start to grow and then you start to switch up your content to like there's some more professional things I think in people's brains it starts to feel like oh okay like this person's a real artist now you know and so that's what I want to do which I think yeah I think it wouldn't be wise to just be you know now everything's shot on a red and I spent you know 20k on every TikTok video like that's not like I'd want to have the iPhone stuff and the other stuff but I think you just got to figure out what the mix is over time and maybe there's a point where you're such a huge artist that it doesn't make sense to be posting iPhone videos at all but I think I don't know I think right now it's just like it's time to at least start to look like there's some real like intentionality behind everything that I'm doing yeah that makes sense because we we've got other videos where we've said you know if I'm a a music fan and you know most music fans aren't super paying attention to rising artists like they found a couple that like they watch you but they're not really paying attention to the underground space it's typically artists and people in music industry that are doing it so if I'm paying attention to Travis Scott, Cardi B you know what I'm saying these big artists and they all have a certain quality to it and then I come across you know you not you but like an artist with that doesn't match it then your brain does go to like okay maybe they're not as serious as these artists that I'm watching that are doing that yeah yeah yeah it's it's real and I think it's the same I mean it's the same way that if you see an artist on a festival lineup that you like or you see them hanging out with other artists that you like then you're like oh wow like they're they're pretty dope yeah yeah they made it you know and it's the same way even if they really haven't even they really haven't yeah so yeah I think that's that's what I'm trying to do at least from a video standpoint yeah that makes sense makes sense you were talking about doing showcases right now in Atlanta showcases have a bad rep all right and artists that where you that's where you are probably would like look down on a showcase right like I'm I'm too poppin I already have a million plus monthly listeners etc how do you look at showcases why and why do you still do showcases yeah I mean I I like the well I think LA we were talking about this before we're shooting like it is true that the community here is like different from in other places like around music it's like there's there's a lot of artists there's a lot of sessions going on but I think it can be hard to like as a fan or as even as an artist like feel like okay here I can name the up-and-coming LA scene like here's all the you know so I like showcases because it like allows me to be around other artists and to the fans it's like this is the LA like this is the LA scene you know what I mean but I mean I do I do see why people don't like showcases I think you have a lot more control when it's just your thing you know and so I'm not you know I'm not going to tell you I'm trying to do showcases for the rest of my life you know it's just a thing where it's like I like it right now because it's a way to do a show without prepping it all like I don't have to call the venue I don't have to do anything somebody emails me and I like want to hit another one and I'm like bro easy I'll do it and then I tell my people and then people show up you know but I do think that as I've grown it's become a thing where it's like when you're at a showcase and a lot of the people at the showcase are there for you and like the majority of the people at the showcase are there for you it's like man would I be making more money if I was just doing this on my own and I wasn't you know giving away this cut to all these other people you know I think that's definitely a part of it that I'll think about now but yeah I like I like feeling like I'm a part of a community of artists that are rising up and so that's that's great to hear because again a lot of artists are not trying to be around other artists which is an interesting take but I always love to hear artists who are like really collaborative and sounds like you like probably learn from other artists what do you do you look at it as practice as well in some sense oh absolutely absolutely yeah yeah and I think a lot of a lot of the showcases that I've done it's like the person hit me up before I had another thing that I was going to be performing at and I'm like oh I get to I'm going to run the same exact set list and it's basically my rehearsal for this other thing that you know so I think a lot of times it it helped in that way for sure like I just did one last week and then I have a show coming up next week and it was like all right let's try out that show and like there's some new music that I it's like a comedian where they're like trying out new jokes you know it's like hey I've never played this song before anybody so let me play it here and then when I you know do it in front of a different audience I'll be ready got it got it now you also mentioned that you know you have a cool situation where you got hired by a company all right you had an upcoming company with one of their founders was interested in you as a fan said hey come out have a forum for my company one like that sounds pretty cool like was there was that kind of like yo this shit is kind of cool yeah it's like so you have your first was this your first like private show like that yeah yeah and that was like they reached out to you not nobody seeking to book it anything like that yeah yeah just hit me up yeah so this is before that experience so we can't ask how it was or how it's gonna go yet we would definitely love to hear what what that's like but you know it's it's cool to like be in that position and know that that could happen still pretty early yeah right because you think about Beyonce performing for some royal family's wedding right you don't hear hey I'm not even signed yet and I'm like taking off on tiktok and I'm performing at for some legitimate event that's private that's kind of cool yeah no I like it I like I think it's I think it's a cool way to like connect with fans and I think it also like it plays it it works well for me because like right now I have a song that I have not yet released that's doing well on tiktok and I like the song is finished but we still have some paperwork stuff that we're figuring out so there's a lot of people who haven't heard the song and a great way to tease those people is to be like I just played it for this private group you know what I mean so like stuff like that it kind of works for me because it's like oh we're in a cool venue there's not that many people it's a secret thing this wasn't told to everybody and I played on the song that nobody's heard but that a lot of people want to hear and then I you know make a video of that and I posted it and I'm like hey y'all better you know look yeah I like that I like that speaking of like the marketing bag actually you alluded to like still figuring some things out right you haven't done I guess as many as your own solo shows yet and I think you touched on like still trying to figure out some of the things in terms of your content it all alludes to like what is my brand right have you thought of like what is the Paul Russell experience for your shows right how is that different from a showcase have you started to get there and think about that it's a thing I started to think about yeah and I think I think just in general like branding is a thing I've been trying to figure out because I think figuring out who the audience is is the first step right of like you know who's connecting with the music and that's a thing that now that like I've grown a lot even over the past month like everything has grown by like 5x and so a lot of right now is me being like who are all these people you know and and trying to figure out how that fits into thing like what are the what do they like about this music so that as I'm trying to create experiences and create you know whatever like it doesn't feel like it misses what they were interested in the first place you know but yeah I mean I guess for me it's like the type of music I make is very happy and it's very like I don't know it's the type of it's the type of stuff that you listen to when you're driving around with your friends like my my music spikes on Friday afternoons because it's like people are chilling with the homies you know so here that's so specific and so so yeah so it's like like the I want everything that I do to feel like that to feel like hanging out with your friends so it's like we've been thinking about like okay what are pop-ups that we can do what are shows that we can do and even you know like just how can we make everything feel like you're in a you're part of a community by liking the music and how can we turn that into you know not just here's me doing a show but what if it's a party that's vacation themed or something or like it's a cool pool part or it's like you know like I think there's all these different things that you can look at and like references you can take in that like connect more with the like hanging out with my homies but it's really a big show for an artist you know so I don't know that's that's how we've been thinking about it right now but it's still a thing that I'm figuring out it sounds like when you think about community like you get into pictures like what are these environments what's actually happening while they're listening everything you just said that like what I'm almost like a focused group like a very traditional marketing focus group would be like what do they drink what do they watch what are they but you're saying that but it's not in like a really marketing way it's a very organic like hey my music sparks spikes on these days I would love them to feel like they're hanging out with my homies but those vision like there's a lot of different versions of hanging out with my homies so can you get more specific on like what you think your world looks like yeah I definitely think it's uh I mean I live in LA it's very summery here but I also a lot of the music that I make is like music that you would hear on vacation or music that you would hear like honestly some of it now is like wedding music even like at a celebration or it's like I'm chilling by the pool like that kind of thing and so yeah I mean I think I think figuring out how that ties into specific places and how that ties into specific events is a thing that we're still trying to get more specific on but yeah I mean I think the world feel like the Paul Russell world definitely feels like this kind of like it's my day off type of thing like where would you be on those days and how can we like I think we've talked about a lot like there's a brand called Vacation that is like a sunscreen brand and they're really cool because their whole thing is like like vintage uh like pool beach resort type of stuff and it's you know it all is like the the photography on it you know it's all like vintage type of stuff and they like they like really lean into it and I think the way that I'll think about it is I'll look at a brand like that and go like okay like how can I create a version of that around the music that I'm making that's a dope hat yeah they did they did the work already they did the work all right let me kind of see it's kind of painting my world for me a little and I love the the language you're using man it's very much so not like hey yeah I'm going to I don't just be happy or I'm trying to reach like I'm emo or something like that to say my day off like that I actually felt something when you set my day off you know what I mean like like painting those pictures it seems like you're probably gonna be like do very well that at getting um you know that community and painting that world as you're talking about because even the vintage I already kind of felt that from you person maybe it's the bowling shirt you know but I already felt that that vibe like that would make sense in your world what are you inspired by to that degree like for instance you got a couple albums over there are do you actually listen to those are those I do yeah yeah grab grab them let's let's get it let's let's talk about these right here oh man we gotta start out with Stevie Wonder Stevie Wonder songs in the key of life which is a hard-ass title by the way you're sounding like confused I was just trying to make sure I read it in an articulate way you know you know what I mean I'm warming up my reading right now you know I'll read the other ones faster saying cursive I've been read cursive in years so what does this project mean to you as an artist man well I love Stevie Wonder I think he's obviously a great musician but I also think that he's someone who uh you know I talked about the wedding thing I don't see myself as somebody who's generally making wedding music but like there's a lot of Stevie Wonder songs that you'll hear at something like that you'll hear at a big celebration right and there's not there's a lot of artists not there there is not a lot of artists who are making music that feels like it fits in that place right now at least in my opinion I've had some conversations with even labels about that about the fact that like there was a time you know obviously we can talk about the Stevie Wonder thing but even you know more recently like we talked about people like ACON or people like even I know it's corny but like Pitbull like though I love Pitbull though I'm a big fan of Pitbull but like those people were making like the party songs of an era but it wasn't club music it was just like happy like outside feel good music you know it's not cool to be happy right now it's not cool to be happy for some reason but I think the reason that some of the stuff like my more recent stuff is connecting is because it is that happy music you know and it's like I'm trying to think of it in a different way and I've been trying to create it in a way where it's like how can you make something happy but not corny and I think part of it is what you're talking about in this song part of it is the way that you say things in the song and you know but I think that's what I'm trying to do and so talking about Stevie Wonder it's like I feel like he did that for sure in this album like making stuff that like you connect with and it feels real but it also is just a happy song you're gonna listen to you know when you're outside. You made me think of something before I go to the next project so Marvin Gaye like came out as an artist you know people loved him but when the world changed it was in the wars all these things going on you know he wanted to talk about music of that time Barry Gordy didn't want him to come out with that like be political or anything like that he comes out with what's going on and it connects right. Happy music right do you think it's a good time for happy music right and when you think about the the climate because you actually touched on a version of this earlier when you said that like people didn't want to hear music on TikTok right because I was tired of music at the moment we're burnt out on music and now we're good on music on TikTok well maybe there's a time when we don't want to hear happy music but then maybe this space could be or maybe a year from now maybe this is a time how do you look at the climate in that way. Yeah I mean I think I think part of it's a framing thing for sure like I remember it was crazy the like there is a song that I released that happened to come out like you know I planned it weeks in advance this was back in 2020 it came out the week that George Floyd died but it was the happiest song and I think like you know I was like crap like nobody is trying to hear this right now but the song ended up doing really well but I think the reason that it did was because it I framed it as kind of like this is an escape from the world that we're in right now. You framed it in the like packaging of how you introduce it from a marketing perspective or in the song it was framed that way. In the like from a marketing like packaging perspective yeah yeah yeah so I definitely think it's like if you're gonna make happy music you're right you have to be cognizant of like what's happening around you at the time and like you have to communicate to your listeners in some way sometimes it is in the song like is this a song that is saying I'm happy with my situation or is this a song that is happy but it's talking about something completely different you know maybe it's an escape or maybe it's like I'm happy I'm looking back on the good old days or maybe I'm happy for you know whatever so I think I think storytelling is important for that for sure. Gotcha. Lionel Richie can't slow down. Bro Lionel Richie is sick man I actually I went to uh I was in the like the live audience for American Idol like this last season randomly it was like I had to connect thank you shout out um and I saw this man live uh playing like I mean yeah he's a lot older now obviously but yeah I like Lionel Richie a lot I don't have that much to say about how it connects to him the music that I make now but I mean I think it does there's some especially like the Commodore stuff like yeah. How do you um you know even if it's not drawn into your music specifically just what do you appreciate about his artistry? Man like I I think uh I think that era of music was just fun you know and I think that uh yeah Lionel Richie's just somebody who has a wide variety of different types of sounds but that all feel like they're under one umbrella you know where it's like yeah it's the kind of like soul pop type of lane but you know you've got you've got a lot of different stuff in there that you can grab from and I think he's somebody that did that in a cool way so yeah I'm a fan. So Louis Armstrong a remembrance. Yes yes I think yeah I mean obviously Louis Armstrong has a really interesting voice uh and I think like you know I think well I think I my voice is distinct like to some degree like nowhere near his but I think like he's someone who I feel like he really learned and understood his voice and like where it fit and how to use it you know and how to do that in a way that is extremely like it's clear that it's obviously you know he talked you know it's him but like it feels like he understood that which is the thing that I'm starting honestly like over the past like year or so in music like realizing how my voice is not just like the vehicle that I'm using to communicate the melody and the lyrics but it's like something that's drawing people to the song in itself and like thinking yeah it's an instrument and thinking about like you know how can I use that instrument I guess what I mean is like thinking about okay how much rasp do I need to be in me singing this part of this song or like how like I think something can I can be singing it more nasally or I can be singing it more from my diaphragm and I think there's different reasons to do that in different types of parts of songs uh and I think the way that that interacts with specifically the way my voice sounds like I think learning more about that has helped me so much with music you know because I think there's a lot of times when I make a song and someone's like this doesn't sound like you and I'm like bro this sounds like me what do you mean I just sang it but like figuring out what are the quintessential things that people connect with about my voice and then figuring out how to like optimize that for whatever I'm trying to create that's dope just hearing that like this it's so what I love about it is it specific to you as an artist right like we all know beats and songs and just some of your interests and things like that but then like your voice is specific that's what you have right and you saying something doesn't hit like somebody else saying something right like GZ like GZ tells the story of how Kanye used his his like one bar or whatever and uh what's up oh can't tell me nothing about that yeah right and but and it changed the nature of that so that's that a little bit right so it's cool to like it's like a to hear it's like this self exploration that has to occur beyond the art form of the music itself yeah yeah yeah it's real I like recently my friend got you know the like the thing where you can like put different voices uh I guess you can like replace your voice with other artists voices via AI like and so we there's a song that I made that we're playing with like okay what would it sound like if Drake sang it what would it sound like with it and I realized how much like there's some artists where the AI can easily swap out my voice for theirs but there's other artists where no matter what they do it still just sounds like me and it's like even if you get the melody right I mean sorry even if you get the the like pitch right it just still sounds like me but it's like as because there are certain ways that I say things that this artist would never say it like that like they wouldn't you know and so I think understanding that also it's like a thing where I realized like okay there is something like really unique about how I sound you know and then you don't have that maybe there's a problem yeah true I mean and I think yeah if you don't have that I think you have to figure it out in different ways like there's a lot of artists who hate their voice but they're able to in the way that they mix it or in the way that they sing things in a really weird unique way like make it still connect and you're like you know this is dope but they don't even like their voice you know yeah I think Neil was somebody who said something like that before I think I heard him say his voice was nasally or something now I don't know these people so make sure I say right the Dave Brubeck quartet yeah that's pretty good yeah yeah so tell me about the Dave Brubeck quartet it's real chill jazz music no lyrics you know it's it's it's a jazz band they're incredible it's like it's very good just like chilling music you know and it feels classy which I like that's what you put on when you know about to go on a little date with the lady it's like yeah come on in I got you a little glass of wine like let's have a conversation like it's good you're very vibe aware it's all about the vibes for me for sure that's dope that's dope man and he's it's a nice collection man I'm aware of three of these gotta like check into this one because I do like jazz music I do like jazz music uh okay well with that being said man um one of the final things I definitely want to kind of just get an idea from for you is you were in college when you like were like hey I'm pursuing being an artist still right yeah yeah you said you were studying labor relations yeah okay uh for for the audience who probably haven't heard what that is like can you explain what labor or relations is before I get into my question yeah for yeah it's a it's a weird major because like I feel like if you asked any person who studied labor relations what the major is about they all give you a different answer but it's like I mean obviously it's about labor it's about like the work of businesses and like like it was about work right and so I took a lot of classes that were about like labor economics or about labor law you know but I mean I think overall it was interesting to me because like basically every social movement that happened in like American history was been at least 80% related to labor you know like even you know you think about the civil rights movement it's like we want to be able to get the right types of job like we want to get the the jobs that other people are afforded the opportunities for you know like that's a big part of it and that's like so you know you look at any movement there's that labor aspect that's involved like how am I making some bread on a day-to-day basis you know so uh yeah learning the history of that was was cool but I don't use it at all anymore but I mean what even connected about it to even yeah what yeah what what made you choose right of labor relations in the first place yeah well at the time I thought I wanted to be like a labor lawyer I want to be a lawyer for unions but it also is a sort of late sort of major where they tell you in the beginning like just do it and you'll figure out your path later on you know because I mean to some degree your your major doesn't matter as much as I felt like it did when I was a high school kid trying to choose it you know but then when you get into it you're like oh yeah whatever I can do whatever and like figure out a path those kind of choices say something right because even though we don't have any idea what this really looks like in the real world when we go to college and we choose majors like there's an idea at least in our head of what we think that is so you said I want to be a labor a lawyer for unions never heard anybody say that messing with my life right what about that idea was attractive to you yeah I guess part of it is two things it was really like part of it was I really liked the idea of feeling like I was helping people which I mean I think is very broad and I think everyone to some degree wants to do that but I think to me it felt like law was an area where you can have a impact on people's lives by helping them in some way to you know fight against whoever and the reason I was interested in the labor part of it was just because you know I think for lots of different types of law there you know I mean there's a wide variety and there's not necessarily a great way for a lot of them for you to feel like you understand the nuts and bolts of the industry that you're trying to be a lawyer in like the industry that you're you know practice of law is related to and so for me it was like oh I can study labor and learn about helping people with getting jobs or with like being represented as an employee somewhere and then that can easily translate to a job where I'm a lawyer and I'm helping them specifically in that and it felt like it felt like an area where it was like there's a easy there's a clear at the time this is not really the case but in my head it was like really easy good guy and a bad guy like the good guys the guys who's on the side of the workers and the bad guys the company so I can easily I'll study this and then I'm gonna graduate I'm gonna go to law school and I'm gonna be a good guy and then I'm doing it you know and I also liked English a lot like as a subject which people were like oh you like that like you should be a lawyer so English words writing artists you know it all connects I mean even happy music right it seems to be there's always been this common thread with you where you care about people in some way or another and you want to be the good guy yeah where's that definitely man I mean I think you know a big part of it is like my faith you know like I I feel like I'm on earth for a purpose right and so and I think a big part of that purpose is helping people you know like so you know I think when when wanting to go the labor route you know a lot of it was just me being like man like whoa like aren't God like what is the way that I can help people you know and I think as I've done more music stuff I realized that that is a way to help people that I kind of neglected for a while like I thought that you're really helping people if you're helping them with the the legal stuff but you're not helping people you're just making them feel good but then I got in the real world and I was like dang like the amount of times that a song has completely changed you know my year or my my day just by making me happy at the right time you know like I realized that's important you know so yeah I guess it comes from my faith and I don't know where else I just want to I don't know I just want to do good so what was that like when you say hey I've been pursuing this career I'm playing around with music but then when you knew like I want to pursue being an artist instead yeah I mean it was a weird process like like I went to so you know I was in college right and then I went to I went to do an internship in like in Southern California and it was weird because you know like I said I wanted to be a lawyer and I was just really struggling to get an internship that felt like it was connected to that and I ended up taking an internship that was in in Orange County that had nothing to do with anything other than it was not law related it was not related to anything at all for me that I thought was even cool but I just applied to it because it was in it was in LA it was in Orange County which was close to LA and I just really felt like like almost like like I felt like God was like bro I need you to be in LA and it just I just was like okay so I applied to this just because of that reason I came out here and that's where I met people like Ruslan who's like an artist that I made a lot of music with in the beginning and I saw those guys like and the impact that they were having and the way that the stuff that they were making was like is a soundtrack to these to people's lives so like their fans lives you know and like as I started making more music and like doing stuff with them while just out here on this internship I just saw the you know the purpose in it I guess and I saw like what I wanted to create as well like I saw a path for myself of like I like what's going on here I like what I'm doing and I also see now what I want to make and I see like this could maybe be a career you know and this could check those boxes that I wanted of helping people and so so yeah I mean it wasn't like a one moment all that happened and then I'm like all right screw all the work now I'm out here making music you know I think it was like realizing that and then going on a journey of like figuring out what that looks like and how to live it out but yeah so when it's all said and done what would you like to have at least accomplished in your career wow big stuff um wow okay I think you know on a I mean a given is you know connecting with people building community having people like really feel you know feel like the music that I've made has had an impact on them or feel like the music that I made has changed their mood at moments that it mattered but I also want to make the song that can replace hotel room service at the weddings bro you know the song hotel room service by pitbull bro that song if you are the dj at you're a dj at any multi-generational event play that joint and everybody's gonna have a good time hotel room service is a song I probably know the song and don't know hotel is the song you know I never know names all right we at the hotel hotel holiday boy we gotta get that copyright strike it's all gone bro that song gets me hype bro and it gets ever it's it's always I did a little dj name in my time and it always hits and so it's like bro it's like I want to make a song like that where it's like if the party's dead just put that on and everybody's gonna have a good time you know what I mean like I think that's definitely something I want to accomplish for sure though though I love that my dumb brain cookout music but cookout music bro that's it that's what it is that's a special feeling that for real for real like the multi-generation we can all have a good time there's a there's a innocence to it a purity to it where we're just having not that we don't enjoy other types of music but it's it almost allows you to escape as you said you know oh yeah I love that I love that well thank you for allowing us to interview you man have a conversation come home with your friends or well yeah you know what I mean and capture you with this matching back painting behind you you know what I mean and yeah I just want to say everything I've seen from you and like everything that I I've even heard in this conversation man like the thoughtfulness it's really really cool to see um throughout the journey and it's things are probably just happening sometimes it feels like they're moving fast but like a person to a lot of people that we work with that go through the process like you definitely seem like you have a a great like mind around and you and you take it seriously so I'm looking forward to playing some happy music in my in my future so music that I could play with my daughters and not have to cut it off you know man there's a place for that there's a there's a huge place for that um everybody thank you for tuning in this is yet another episode of no labels necessary podcast I'm brand man Sean oh Cory and I'm pa and we out appreciate you for watching if you like content like this you'll love seeing our music marketing strategies that we use as an agency to actually blow up artists to millions and even billions of streams that are available for free at no labels necessary dot com and the cool part about it that's going to really make you love it is we don't have to be all entertaining and add all this fluff just to get some use that we do on youtube we get straight to the information there's play by play in courses that give you a breakdown of every step that you should do to get success and you have the ability to have communication with us we get on live talks a lot of cool things for members and it's free just to hop in so check it out right now at no labels necessary dot com