 I hope that we can now move to the next item of business, which is a member's business debate on motion 275, in the name of Paul Sweeney, on our factory, our future, the fight to save McVitie's at Tollcross Glasgow. This debate will be concluded without any questions being put. I would ask those members who wish to speak in this debate to please press their request to speak buttons now, and I call on Paul Sweeney to open the debate. Thank you, Deputy Presiding Officer, and thanks to all colleagues from across the chamber who supported this motion for debate today. I would also like to declare an interest, as a member of Unite and GMB, both of whom are fighting relentlessly to protect as many jobs as they can. The struggle facing the workers at McVitie's in the east end of Glasgow echoes the struggle of so many skilled industrial workers in Scotland over the last 50 years. From Mitchell and Tires in Dundee to the Cali railway workers in Glasgow, it is a grimly familiar story of an overseas owner, asset-stripping Scotland's industrial base, but like so many other cases, closure is far from inevitable. Indeed, this Parliament, founded in the face of such struggles, has a duty to prevent it going the same way as so many other proud Scottish industries and brands. The workforce is highly dedicated, talented and loyal. It is a workforce that is rooted in its local community, and it is incredibly proud of the work and the history that extends through generations of families to the foundation of McFarlane and Lange's Bakers in the Gallagate two centuries ago, building a brand that is famous the world over. It is a credit to its community, and it should be extremely proud of its conduct throughout the period of distressing uncertainty. We saw what the plant and its employment meant to the local community in the immediate aftermath of Pladys's closure announcement in May. It sprang into action and, to date, its petition to save nearly 500 jobs has amassed over 75,000 signatures. To be fair, the Scottish Government is to be commended for at least setting up the action group that has developed the counter-proposal with Scottish Enterprise and the Interpath Consultancy as an alternative to the end of McVitie's production in Scotland. They engaged with the relevant trade unions and agencies, and they put together a viable and credible alternative. The blame for this closure lies squarely with Turkish-owned multinational Pladys, which took control of McVitie's and the wider United Biscuits group in 2014. However, the Scottish Government is far from exhausted all options at its disposal. Deputy Presiding Officer, Pladys and their parent company, Yildus Holdings, are a classic example of the unacceptable face of capitalism, loading the required companies with debt while extracting profits and running their assets down in a programme of managed decline. I have long argued that Scotland and Britain as a whole must have an industrial strategy that protects homegrown brands from takeovers by asset stripping overseas predators. The situation at McVitie's in Glasgow is just the latest example that proves exactly why that must now be a priority going forward. As far as I am concerned, its conduct amounts to industrial vandalism that will inflict misery on a working-class community that simply cannot afford it. The east end of Glasgow already has an unemployment rate that is almost double the national average. The latest available figures show that more than 5,000 people claim unemployment benefits in the area. We now face the prospect of another 500 being added to that figure. It is not just 500 workers in isolation, Deputy Presiding Officer. It is 500 families who now face uncertainty. It is absolutely shameful. While the executives at Pladys were planning to wield the axe at the Tollcross plant, forcing hundreds on to the dole, they enjoyed a record turnover of £2 billion with profits amounting to £154 million. Is anyone really going to argue that any of that would have been possible without the dedicated and skilled workforce that they are now abandoning? The counter-proposal robustly addresses the company's justification for closing Tollcross, a high cost per tonne and low volume relative to production capacity across the UK. The counter-proposal centres around a purpose-built state-of-the-art 250,000 square foot factory on Government-owned land at nearby Garchosh, giving Pladys a blueprint to develop a new, highly efficient factory system in the future to replace what is admittedly an aged portfolio of seven production sites acquired by United Biscuits over the years. The problem is who is going to pay for it. Deputy Presiding Officer, that is where my praise for the Scottish Government is not quite so forthcoming. Last month, the company rejected the proposal, meaning that we are now essentially in a stand-off situation. The company wants to know who will pay for the counter-proposal, and the Scottish Government wants to know that Pladys is committed to maintaining a presence in Scotland before they will commit to detailed financing arrangements. Deputy Presiding Officer, for as long as that boardroom stand-off continues, 500 families are left in the lurch. It is becoming increasingly clear that the company is not going to budge, and that is why I implore the Scottish Government to put their cards on the table and take a lead. Do I think that the counter-proposal is credible? Yes, I do. Do I think that the Scottish Government genuinely wants to save those jobs? Yes, I do. Do I think that they have exhausted all the options available? No, I do not. Last night, the Scottish Government claimed that Pladys had given no indication that financial assistance and state aid would change their approach. In response, I would like to ask the cabinet secretary a simple question. Has the Scottish Government in negotiations explicitly said to Pladys that it would provide the capital funding to build the new factory? If not, why not? Pladys operates sale and lease back arrangements for a number of their sites in Chiswick, High Wycombe and Carlyle. Therefore, the assertion that they are not open to the financing structure is unconvincing and does not stand up to scrutiny. Frankly, we need more from the Scottish Government. Today, I ask once more to commit to funding that counter-proposal. Let's save those jobs and ensure that we do not add McVitties to the growing list of brands lost by Scotland's lack of an industrial strategy. John Mason, to be followed by Annie Wells. It is incredibly disappointing that Pladys is refusing to change its position, which is likely to mean the loss of some 468 jobs in the east end of Glasgow. In some cases, that will mean two or more wage earners in the one family, so the financial implications for some will be huge. I also understand that there is criticism of the redundancy packages that have been offered, and I am sure that the GMB and other unions will be pressing Pladys on that, and I am sure that we will all be wanting to help them if we can. I certainly trust that Jobcentre Plus, Skills Development Scotland and other public agencies will be supporting those who are losing their jobs. I broadly accept that the biscuit and snack markets are very competitive and there is probably overcapacity. Younger people do not seem to be eating biscuits as much as my generation has done, whereas I have a rich tea or ginger nut or chocolate digestive with my coffee, I do notice that younger staff who work for me tend not to do so. Therefore, it was highly likely that Pladys would have to close some factories, and I suspect that Toe Cross may not be the last. So, in practice, Toe Cross was competing with the other Pladys plants. I know that the Government and the Council and the unions did not want to say this, but I consider that it was the reality. If we were to save Toe Cross, it would be because another factory in Manchester or Liverpool or Carlyle was to close instead. It has been clear for many years that Toe Cross was not being invested in, and so I think that most of us have been half-expecting closure for a long time. Pladys had been offered support, if it is brief, yes? Daniel Johnson Does he not acknowledge that there is any role for the Scottish Government to preemptively or support industry and to reinvest, so perhaps investments can be made in biscuits that young people do want to eat? John Mason We will hear from the Government in due course. I think that the Government and the Council together with the trade unions have put a lot of effort into this. I am not aware of more that the Government can do, but we will hear in due course some of the responses to the points that Mr Sweeney made. It has been clear for many years that Toe Cross was not being invested in, so I think that, as I said, most of us were expecting something like this to happen. Pladys has been offered support to relocate in Glasgow some years ago, with both Scottish Enterprise and Clyde Gateway involved. The Government and the Council have strengthened that offer in recent weeks. The galling thing is that all of this has been happening at a time when the Scottish food and drink sector has been doing very well. Even within the biscuit sector, we see tunox, walkers and border biscuits doing well, while backsters and bars have been other success stories. We know that Scottish food produce is high quality and often commends a premium price on world markets, as is the case with salmon and whisky. So one disappointment for me has been that McVitties have consistently refused to brand their goods from Toe Cross as Scottish. I guess that makes it easier to package all their biscuits in the same way, but I do feel that they missed a trick in this. Another significant factor has been that McVitties was not Scottish owned with the Scottish headquarters. Being a Scottish company does not guarantee that there will be no problems and no closures. We know that other Scottish businesses have had to cut costs and trim staff, but when the HQ is in Scotland it does mean that there is generally a stronger commitment to continuing here and to supporting the local employees and outside contractors. It also means that the jobs here will tend to be higher quality than if a Scottish factory is just one among many branches. It seems to me that one of the lessons out of this is that we must more strongly resist the takeover of Scottish companies. I accept that that will not apply in every case, but I do think that it should be our assumption that it is better to keep HQs in Scotland unless there is specific reason otherwise, and that should not just be making the shareholders a fast buck. United Biscuits was listed in the stock exchange in 1948. Such a listing is sometimes seen as a sign of success, but it is also a sign that control has been lost and the link with the business routes have largely gone. There was an excellent article in the Herald in May this year by Martin Steppeck of the Scottish Business, Scottish Family Business Association. He argued that we need to look at other ways of succession for family businesses, for example, selling to its employees. I do hope for the best for the employees of McVitties at Tocross. If the Government can do anything, that is absolutely great and we are all here to support. I also hope that the Government and Scottish Enterprise will take on board the need to try and keep more business headquarters in Scotland. I am grateful for the opportunity to speak today. It is an issue that will have huge, indeed adverse consequences for the east end of Glasgow. Like many local residents, I am bitterly disappointed and frustrated over the fashion in which Glasgow's McVitties factory has been pushed towards closure at the expense of so many jobs. My thoughts, first and foremost, are with the workers, their families at this difficult time. I would first like to pay tribute to the efforts made by the many public figures, organisations and individuals across our communities who came together to fight for those jobs. In particular, I would like to say a thank you to the saver jobs McVitties at Tocross, who, due to their sheer determination and campaigning, attracted almost 80,000 signatures to save the factory. Despite the bitterly disappointing outcome, efforts to leave no-slone unturned in saving those jobs has been truly remarkable, but yet more can still be done. I am not sure whether your microphone is on. Is your card in? Thank you for giving way. Does the member recognise, however, that the regulation that resides at the city of London, as commented by Paul Sweeney in his speech, has allowed the company to pull money out of it to have very opaque tax arrangements and so on? Therefore, will she join me in asking the Westminster Government to sort this out, because this is a repeating theme across a number of businesses across the UK? As we are talking about 500 individuals here, I want to concentrate and focus on them right now. I will happily have a conversation with the member after the debate. I know that my colleagues and Glasgow Conservatives, including Councillor Thomas Care, have been campaigning tirelessly alongside Labour and SNP counterparts to champion those workers in the face of Pladys' decision. It must be said that I share the anger that so many people share, that Pladys have appeared to be determined to press ahead with the closure of this factory, almost 500 jobs set to be lost. For too long, they have failed to fully support this site, and now this is the final blow to the workforce. The impact that this will have on those involved, their families and the local community, cannot be understated. Generations of workers in the local area and beyond have helped to bring success to this historic manufacturing institution in Glasgow. More recently, workers have gone the extra mile by continuing to manufacture, despite the difficult circumstances arising from the Covid pandemic. To see it close in such a fashion, therefore, is a true blow to the local communities and the whole of Glasgow. To be absolutely clear, it is a slap in the face to a loyal and highly dedicated workforce. The public health emergency that is presented by the virus is still, sadly, unfolding. However, given that we are facing one of the biggest economic challenges in our lifetime, the pressing need to secure Glasgow's and Scotland's economic recovery has never been more urgent. Many Glasvegians have been forced into financial hardship over the past 18 months, and we are supposed to be looking ahead to a new period of promising economic recovery. That is why, with the loss of those highly valued jobs, it is certainly not the start of the economic recovery from Covid that Glasgow needs. We have also seen major retailer Tesco extra park head also in the east end of the city, signalling that it might have to downsize potentially, leading to further disruption of jobs and livelihoods in the local area. To be clear, I fully expect that the parties involved to explore every avenue in order to help and protect as many jobs as possible. That ultimately matters now, is that those who are faced with the prospect of redundancy get the right support, and I urge the Scottish Government to step up and commit to making that the case. McVittie's factory means a great deal to me personally. By the factory, I do not mean the buildings, I mean the people, I mean the workers. For five years, working with the GMB with representatives like Phyllis Riddle, Margaret Boyd and Tommy MacDonald, we organised those workers in battles over skilled shortages, under staffing, equal pay, long hours and yes capital under investment. Many battles we won, some we lost, but now those workers are facing Armageddon. I say to MSPs here this afternoon that it is our duty, the duty of this Parliament not to walk away and accept defeat but to stand with them, stand firm and fight with them, because there is a simple injustice here at the heart of what's going on. The injustice that a company or a factory can be bought and sold and now facing closure with little or no say for the workers and a transnational corporation unwilling to co-operate. The injustice that quality brands, some over 100 years old, built up over decades by generations of workers, can be taken over, asset stripped, those brands robbed in just 2,000 days. This is banditry, nothing less. People say to me that the idea of class is out of date, that class does not matter any more. We will look at the concentration of wealth and power in the hands of the owners of Pladys and look at how little wealth and how little power is in the hands of the workers of Pladys in Glasgow and tell me that there is no class system at work. In fact, if ever there was an example of why we so desperately need a different future beyond this kind of corporate extractive asset robin bandit capitalism run by an ever narrowing elite, this is it. What is happening at McVittie should ring alarm bells to this Parliament and to this Government. Alarm bells about our economy's precarious exposure to external ownership, which the present government appears to be at least at best agnostic about at worst positively enthusiastic about. Alarm bells about what happens when you separate corporate management and control from so-called mere operations, even though it is the mere operations that maintain the quality of the brand that makes the money that lines the pockets of shareholders and it should ring alarm bells too. Why we urgently need at last a Scottish industrial strategy, a strategy investment-led, jobs first, people-centred, manufacturing-driven, based on democratic economic planning, because the day must surely come when working women and men like those at McVittie's toll cross finally have the power to shape their own destiny. When we have an economy which works in the interests of the many, not the few, where the rights of owners are not absolute, where jobs and livelihoods cannot simply be bought and sold and then sold down the river, on Tuesday we marked the centenary of the birth of Raymond Williams, who once said and I quote, to be truly radical is to make hope possible rather than despair convincing. That is why this Parliament needs to be awakened this afternoon. Ministers must understand the anger of these workers because they know that the deck is stacked against them. Ministers must understand that we need concerted action from the new coalition government, not sending in the pace team but concerted action because there is still time to save these jobs, to save this factory, to save these workers and that is the task that lies before us. That is what we are sent here to do, because I tell you that I do not just want old memories of the McVittie's factory, I want today's workers and the generations to come to have the new future that they deserve. Thank you Mr Leonard. I now call Pauline McNeill to be followed by Pam Duncan-Glancy and Pam Duncan-Glancy will be the last backbench speaker. I want to begin by thanking Paul Sweeney for bringing this important debate so timely and for the work that he has done so far. It has been an incredible campaign and it has been an incredible campaign because of the amazing workforce that it is at McVittie's. It has given us hope and motivation as politicians that we must win this fight. GMB, which I am a member of and I declare that Presiding Officer and Unite, have left no stone unturn in the resources that they have applied to this campaign, working with Kate Forbes, who we will hear from later on. I have worked with McVittie's over the last five years on various issues and there were points where we felt changes to the production line signified a lack of commitment, but we were always given that assurance. We did have a doubt in the back of our mind, it has to be said. As Paul Sweeney says, this has been the highest performing of all the UK sites. There is no reason on the face of it to select the Stirlaskell factory, key performance indicators such as efficiency and maintenance, manufacturing and running on time, despite the fact that it is probably up against it in terms of the investment that it clearly does need. I have to say to John Mason's contribution that I have spent a lot of time in this Parliament. I have been constituency MSP, I have been a regionalist MSP. There is just something in you, John, that seems to be holding back. As the constituency member, it seems to be giving up this fight too easily. The lines in McVittie's were adjusted to reduce sugar in the biscuits, to accommodate, obviously, a concern for many factories that produce products with sugar in them. That is a bit of a diversion. The site also worked through the pandemic as an essential service. We all as MSPs helped the workforce to get through at a difficult time, but they were there serving their community. When the workforce was told that the plans to close the site were shocked and devastated at the news, we knew the ripples, the implications financially, to Glasgow's east end and the Scottish economy are deeply concerning. I welcome the fact that Kate Forbes and Susan Akin got together very quickly to work on an alternative plan, and we must work together on it. I said from the beginning that when I addressed rallies, I spoke to the workforce and, in this chamber, directly to the First Minister. I have always believed that her status as an international figure, which she is, was instrumental in getting pladas to the table. I know that she has met her. I am sure that the cabinet secretary will appreciate the point that I am making. I think that she has been dedicated to this fight, but I think that we have something added here with the First Minister. We need to make sure that she is going to fight with us to the death on this, because there is more to give from the Government. It is one of the central points that Paul Sweeney makes. There is more that the Scottish Government can do and can give to make sure that pladas will not walk away from the site because the offer is too good to refuse those of the terms that we need to offer. I will continue to fight alongside the workforce, unions, Government ministers, my colleagues, John Mason and anyone who believes that we cannot give up the fight on behalf of the workforce and the people of Glasgow in the west of Scotland and the industrial landscape that does not need the closure of McVittie's factory. I would like to declare an interest as a member of the GMB union. I congratulate Paul Sweeney MSP for bringing this debate today and to thank my colleagues across the chamber as well as the GMB and United Trade Unions for all the tireless work that they have done so far to protect the jobs at McVittie's toll cross site. I would also like to express my on-going solidarity to the workers at the toll cross site and their families. Your fight is our fight and we will be behind you every step of the way. Glasgow is a great city, which I am incredibly proud to represent. The fact that it suffers from some of the worst poverty in Scotland is a tragedy and is not inevitable. Unemployment rates are rising more in Glasgow than in other parts of the country. Almost half of Glasgow's residents live in deprived areas. Glasgow has consistently more people claiming out-of-work benefits than anywhere else in Scotland and, according to this Government's own data, last year 34 per cent of children in Glasgow were living in relative poverty. To make things worse, social security is being cut to the bone. An estimated 40 per cent of Glasgow residents are set to see their benefits slashed by the upcoming changes to universal credit and some of the worst affected areas, with more than half of families with children affected by the cuts, are in three of our city's constituencies. On top of that, the council budget has been cut by 11 per cent since 2014, despite the Scottish Government's funding having increased to that by more than 3 per cent. Those cuts to local councils by the Government is equivalent to more than £1,500 per household. People in Glasgow can take no more. We must go hard and fast on poverty and inequality all across the UK. When it comes to doing that, I am afraid that neither the UK nor the Scottish Government are hitting the mark. Against the backdrop of poverty and insecurity, the workers at the McBitties factory in Tollcross have been told that they are losing their jobs. That is 500 more workers and families facing uncertainty, 500 more workers and families at risk of being pulled into poverty and 500 more workers and families that have been let down by the lack of safety net to protect people when they lose their jobs. Throughout this pandemic, the McBitties tollcross workers showed up day in, day out. Tollcross is the highest performing McBitties site, as we have already heard, with a dedicated and diligent workforce. They have given so much to this factory and this is the thanks that they get. The factory has stood in Tollcross for almost a century, generations upon generations of Glaswegians of work there, and there are cases where whole households work there together now. Many workers have said that the factory is like a second family to them, with others describing the overwhelming feeling of devastation at the prospect of losing it. The factory is not just a workplace, it is central to their lives and the cornerstone of the community. To see Pladas turn its back on its employees as appalling, yet another example of how the people of Glasgow are being disrespected. The assault on our jobs and our communities cannot be allowed to continue. The McBitties workers deserve better, Glasgow deserves better, and the people of Glasgow want better. As of today, the Save Our Jobs petition has 77,456 signatures. A staggering number speaking to the volume of overwhelming support that the people of Glasgow are showing to the workers at Tollcross. There have been displays of solidarity, like the rally in Tollcross Park and the tireless efforts of the GMB and Unite the Trade Union to protect jobs. However, the support for the McBitties factory reaches beyond Glasgow too, because we know that McBitties' story reaches beyond our city. With demonstrations outside M&S stores, for example, in Edinburgh and Dundee, the people of Scotland see this injustice and demand action. It is not good enough to sit back and watch as 500 people lose their jobs. We have a responsibility to do everything possible in our power to prevent the closure of the site. There is a window of opportunity here, and it is vital that we grasp it and do absolutely everything that we can with the right funding and support. There is no reason why the factory needs to shut. I welcome the efforts that are already made by the Scottish Government to try to save the Tollcross factory and protect jobs, but I echo the sentiments of my colleagues on those benches. The decision by Pladdus to reject the counter proposal and continue with the plan to cease operations should not mean that we give up and turn our backs on the workers. Instead, we need to now double down our efforts and not rest until we have exhausted every option. There are solutions available, whether it is capital funding or investment in machinery and resources, but should the worst-case scenario come to bear, the Government must also continue to support the workforce, support them into new jobs without allowing anyone to slip into poverty and use all the powers that it has on social security to support them to do that. The workers and their families deserve our support. The fight is not yet over and we have your back. Now is the time to step up that fight for the future of McVity's Tollcross factory. I urge everyone in this chamber, regardless of political party, to join the fight and work together to save those jobs. Thank you, Ms Duncan Clancy. I now call on Kate Forbes, cabinet secretary, to respond to the debate, and the cabinet secretary is joining us remotely. Can I start by thanking Paul Sweeney for the debate and also welcome union representatives like Pat McEvoy to the Parliament today? As we have heard from members this afternoon, the importance of McVity's Tollcross called for robust cross-party collaboration and a very strong partnership with trade unions in order to save the factory. I believe that, over the past few months, we have all risen to the challenge since the announcement by Pladys. I would like to thank the trade unions in particular. They work tirelessly to represent their members, even in the face of constant hurdles. I would also like to pay tribute to local representatives, particularly David Linden, for all that he has done to engage the UK Government in this fight. How disappointed I am not to be in the chamber today, unexpectedly, due to my contact with a Covid positive case in the family. Nevertheless, I hope that I can speak robustly for the workers. I know that it is perhaps not the done thing, but I know that it is not possible to take interventions when speaking remotely, so I wonder if you would allow me to pause during my speech later on to take any questions or interventions from members who would have wanted to intervene. If I pause, perhaps you could call on anybody who stands up. The announcement by Pladys in May that it planned to close its site in Toulcross with the loss of almost 500 jobs was, as other members have articulated, a devastating blow for the workers directly affected, but also for the local area and indeed for our country, because the implications of this decision will have a ripple effect not just on the workers themselves who have been through a hugely stressful period, but also on supply chains and on others whose work relies indirectly on that factory. Paul Sweeney and others have rightly pointed out that this is a site with a very rich history in the east end of Glasgow, having been established almost 100 years ago. In addition to the direct effect on those employed, the loss of this brand to Scotland is also one that is very difficult to accept. That is why, from the very beginning, my priority is and always has been the workforce at the site, and I have ensured that the Scottish Government and others have taken every action possible when it comes to Pladys. We moved very quickly at the outset to respond to the news with a collaborative partnership approach. We obviously immediately established the action group, and I have chaired that action group alongside the leader of Glasgow City Council. The action group's membership includes the Scottish Government, Glasgow City Council, a number of public sector partners such as Scottish Enterprise and, as well as that, GMB and Unite. Representatives of the non-unionised staff are also members of the action group, and they have made contributions that have been invaluable and have represented their workforce admirably throughout that very challenging process. All of us would have liked to have had representation from Pladys on the action group. It would have given the group an opportunity to understand the company's thinking at first hand and also allowed us to put direct questions to management on their rationale. Most importantly, it would have allowed us to use all the evidence and all the data to build the best possible counterproposal. I wrote numerous times to Pladys' managing director inviting him to attend the action group, but to date, every single one of those invitations has been declined. Instead, we worked closely with the unions, offering advice and support as they developed the counterproposal that they presented to Pladys on 27 July. We enlisted the help of external commercial advisers to support and assist the unions in the development of that proposal. As others have said, it was a well-formed, compelling proposal. It took a lot of effort and that makes it all the more disappointing that, just two weeks after it was presented to the company, Pladys rejected it and announced its decision to proceed with closure. What is doubly hard to take for workers, unions and the action group is that that disappointment is compounded by the fact that the First Minister and the Deputy First Minister met Pladys' global chief executive on 29 July. He gave very firm assurances that there would be full consideration and engagement around the proposal. I and the First Minister have written separately to Pladys after their decision to remind the company of that commitment and ask that it honour it. At this time of difficulty, I want the members of the Parliament and the workers to know that we have worked tirelessly to save this factory and we will not give up. Richard Leonard said that we should not walk away. We have not. We have constantly, continually and unrelentingly pursued this. Richard Leonard said that ministers should understand the anger of the workforce. I understand it because I have been speaking to the workers that we should not send in the pace team. We will not. We have established the action group to look at all alternatives to closure. The evidence for my speech this afternoon is that in every step that we have taken over the past few months, every meeting that we have had with Pladys where robust words have been exchanged and every action that all of us have taken, we were prepared to engage with Pladys on how we can help to maintain a presence in Scotland. Before discussions had begun, Pladys confirmed their intentions. Our aim was always to present the most compelling case and we will continue to work together to try to secure the best possible outcome. We stand prepared to continue to engage with Pladys on how we can help to maintain a presence in Scotland. Before I see if there are any interventions, I want to touch on a point that has been raised by a number of members. In order to continue to provide support, we need assurances and trade unions are agreed on this. We need assurances and commitments from Pladys that are committed to Scotland, that it will remain in Scotland and that it will continue to provide employment for the longer term. I want to pick up on Paul Sweeney's question about finance and be clear that the First Minister and I have been absolutely transparent and open that we are willing to provide financial support if it means that Pladys will keep the factory open. We have articulated that position in letters as well as in face-to-face conversations, albeit virtually. What is not helpful to the workers or to the negotiations is to offer a blank check without firm commitments that Pladys will keep that factory open. The fear is that whatever we offer will always be too low for a company that is determined to shut down that factory. My last letter to Pladys in the past few weeks and the First Minister's last letter to Pladys also in the past week or so asked a very clear question. What value would be enough to keep you in Scotland if what we have offered so far is not enough? What will it take to keep the factory open? The answers to those letters, one of which I have received, have still not answered that question. Presiding Officer, I know that it is not the done thing, but I would be happy to take any interventions at this point if you wished to interview me. I am sure that it is very much appreciated that there is a willingness to engage in that way in this debate, because you are currently self-isolating and that is why you are not in the chamber. However, I have been advised by the senior clerk that, particularly from a technical perspective, the technical platform that is available simply would not allow meaningful engagement in that way at this time. I would suggest that, of course, if members wish to take up the cabinet secretary's offer during the debate, they will find the means to do that. I am quite confident by correspondence, by email, by oral written question or indeed by any other means. I think that we would have to leave that matter to the cabinet secretary and I would ask if you would now proceed to bring your remarks to a conclusion. Thank you. Thank you, Presiding Officer. It is always worth trying to be pioneering at the very least. As I draw to close, I am very happy to continue those conversations and discussions with members separately to this debate. I am not somebody who likes to give up. I am absolutely adamant that the toll cross factory is vitally important not just locally, not just to each of those workers but also nationally, and we will continue to work to try and secure a future for Pladys and its staff here in Scotland. Thank you, Presiding Officer. Thank you, cabinet secretary. That concludes this debate. I suspend the proceedings until 2.30 this afternoon. Thank you.