 so now you're displaying your ignorance on the matter every single every single one listen closely no they listen listen closely no they have every single one of the no they don't hold on hold on let me finish what I'm saying every single one of the eight thank you James and everyone with modern-day debate for hosting this soon-to-be legendary exchange and a special thanks to Kenny for challenging me yet again to show why Muhammad most certainly is not the noble pattern of conduct the Quran says he is courage is a virtue my friends and what can be more courageous than Daniel Hakikachu and Kenny Boomer challenging Mike Jones and the Dizzle himself to repeatedly hit Islam in the most sensitive of all soft spots the character of Muhammad so hats off to these gentlemen for their fearless defense of their prophet before we get started I have to ask as always there are any jihadis here who would like to stop me from saying what I'm about to say before I say it because this is going straight to the internet folks once I've said what I'm about to say it's permanent like a sharpie chopping my head off later won't magically erase everything I'm about to say indeed chopping my head off later we'll only amplify what I'm about to say so better get to chopping before these truth bombs start a drop-in no one well they can only we can only conclude that everything I'm about to say has the stamp of approval of jihadis everywhere was Muhammad's marriage to Aisha in Borough if you're new to this topic here's the problem in a nutshell according to Islam's most trusted sources Muhammad the prophet the prophet of Islam married a girl who was six or seven years old and he consummated the marriage with her when she was nine years old Muhammad the pattern of conduct for Muslims was 54 years old when he had sex with a prepubescent nine-year-old girl was that ethical was that moral was that the sort of thing a divinely ordained pattern of conduct should have done was that the example Muhammad should have set for his followers here we are having this debate in the 21st century because Islam now there are several different ways to react to Muhammad's marriage to Aisha Muslims generally go in one of two directions on this issue some Muslims will say Muhammad is our pattern of conduct so if he had sex with a nine-year-old girl there must not really be anything wrong with having sex with a nine-year-old girl these Muslims then defend the ethics of child marriage which we just saw in the previous debate other Muslims will say Muhammad is our pattern of conduct but having sex with a nine-year-old girl is clearly wrong so he must not have actually done it these Muslims will then attack the credibility and reliability of their own sources in order in order to attempt to show that Aisha was older than nine when Muhammad had sex with her non-Muslims have a range of possible responses on one end of the spectrum there are moral relativists who say who were we to judge someone from a different time in a different culture and on the other end of the spectrum we have people who think that Muhammad was a disgusting pervert they'll say Muhammad was a fiend an obscene fiend an obscene fiend flirt with a preteen that obscene fiend made a preteen scream this is a harsh but understandable response to the issue our job in this debate is to present our perspectives and more importantly our reasons for our perspectives so that everyone will be in a better position to make an informed decision about Muhammad's relationship with Aisha so was Muhammad's marriage to Aisha in moral not surprisingly the Quran the collection of revelations received by the man who married the prepubescent girl says no it was absolutely fine according to surah 65 verse 4 of the Quran a Muslim man can marry have sex with and divorce a girl before she's reached puberty and surah 65 verse 4 of the Quran Allah gives rules for divorcing women and girls who don't have a monthly menstrual cycle earlier in the Quran Allah had declared that if a man divorces a woman there's a waiting period called the iddah before the woman can get married again the waiting period was three monthly menstrual cycles but Muhammad's followers eventually asked him what about women and girls who don't have a monthly menstrual cycle either because they're too old or because they're too young or because they're too pregnant and Allah answers this question in surah 65 verse 4 of the Quran he says that if a man divorces a girl who's too young for a monthly menstrual cycle a girl who hasn't reached puberty the girl has to wait three months before she marries another man not three menstrual cycles the girl doesn't have a menstrual cycle yet she has to wait three months instead so according to the Quran a man can marry a prepubescent girl then have sex with her then divorce her then pass her on to the next man who can marry her after waiting three months then have sex with her then divorce her all before the girl has ever reached puberty but don't take my word for it let's read surah 65 verse 4 of the Quran this is the study Quran as for those of your women who no longer await menstruation if you are unsure then their waiting period is three months as it is for those who are yet to menstruate but as for those who are pregnant their term is until they deliver and whosoever reverences God he will appoint he will appoint ease for his affair I went ahead and quoted the entire verse but the relevant portion for this debate is their waiting period is three months as it is for those who are yet to menstruate this is about girls who haven't started menstruating just so there's no confusion about this verse let's read a few classical Muslim commentaries and a modern commentary so that you don't think D. Wood is just making this stuff up it's the tafsir of Ibn Kathir Muhammad's companion and cousin Ibn Kathir comments and for such of your women as despair of menstruation because of old age if you doubt about their waiting period their period of waiting shall be three months upon which another man asked oh messenger of Allah what about the waiting period of those who do not have menstruation because they are too young along with those who have it not because of young age their waiting period is three months Ibn Abbas gives the historical background someone was actually asking about remarrying a prepubescent girl who's already been divorced so according to the two Ibn Abbas at least part of surah 65 verse 4 is responding to this question about what how long do we wait when we marry a prepubescent girl after she's been divorced and then the Quran says well since she she hasn't started menstruating yet just wait three months instead this is the tafsir of Ibn Kathir considered by many to be the greatest tafsir of all time but Ibn Kathir is one of the most respected Muslim scholars of all time after mentioning the three month waiting period for a woman in menopause Ibn Kathir writes the same for the young who have not reached the years of menstruation their ida is three months like those in menopause so three months like those in menopause for those who are too young to menstruate this is tafsir jalalain certainly one of the most popular and respected Quran commentaries of all time in the case of those of your wives who are past the age of menstruation if you have any doubt about their ida their ida should be three months and that also applies to those who have not yet menstruated because of their youth those are classic Muslim commentaries we can go through a lot more but I wanted to go through a modern Muslim commentary this is Maududi's the meaning of the Quran Maududi comments on this verse making mention of the waiting period for the girls who have not yet menstruated clearly proves it is not only permissible to give away the girl in marriage at this age but it is also permissible for the husband to consummate marriage with her now obviously no Muslim has the right to forbid a thing which the Quran has held as permissible thanks for quoting thanks for giving us the meaning of the Quran Maududi and in case that's not enough for a new generation of Muslims who prefer listening to their favorite YouTube die rather than Islam's greatest scholars of all time Muhammad hijab the amazing Muhammad hijab posted on his YouTube channel what he thinks about sort of 65 verse 4 he said and I quote if you look just at the Quran you will get the indication that you can have sexual intercourse with a five-year-old his words not my hijab quotes surah 65 verse 4 of the Quran as his proof text he says that according to surah 65 verse 4 sex with a five-year-old girl is Halal he says that the verse specifically refers to marrying and divorcing prepubescent girls and he says there's no way around it now to be clear Muhammad hijab doesn't believe it's okay to have sex with a five-year-old girl because of Muhammad's example in the hadith Muhammad waited until I show as nine but hijab correctly admits what the Quran plainly declares namely that sex with prepubescent girls is 100% halal certified and the Prophet of Islam was a shining example of surah 65 verse 4 in action we find Muhammad's favorite pickup line and Sahih Al-Bakari Islam's most trusted source on the life of Muhammad 51 25 narrated Aisha Allah's messenger said to me you were shown to me in a dream an angel brought you to me wrapped in a piece of silk and cloth and said to me this is your wife I removed the piece of cloth from your face and there you were I said to myself if it is from Allah then it will surely be accomplished so a man in his fifties had a dream about an angel giving him a six or seven-year-old girl as his wife and instead of going to a psychiatrist he went to the little girl and said baby I had a dream had a dream about you an angel wrapped you up gave you to me as a present even though you're a kid and I'm 52 just a few pages later Bukhari comments connects surah 65 verse 4 to Muhammad's marriage to Aisha the chapter heading in this passage of Bukhari is giving one's young children in marriage is permissible giving one's young children in marriage is permissible by virtue of the statement of Allah and for those who have no monthly courses i.e. they are still immature it's quoting the Quran there surah 65 verse 4 the ida for the girl before puberty before puberty before puberty is three months in the above verse citing the Quran and then Bukhari gives the example of marrying a prepubescent girl in context Sahih Bukhari 5133 Sahih Bukhari 5133 narrated Aisha that the Prophet wrote the marriage contract with her when she was six years old and he consummated his marriage when she was nine years old and then she remained with him for nine years i.e. till his death how old was she when Muhammad consummated consummated the marriage nine years old we get more details about the engagement and marriage in Sahih Bukhari 3894 narrated Aisha my marriage contract with the Prophet was written when i was a girl of six years we came to al-Madinah and we dismounted at the place of Bani al-Harith bin al-Khazraj then i got ill and my hair fell down later on my hair grew again and my mother Umrahman came to me while i was playing in a swing with some of my girlfriends she called me and i went to her not knowing what she wanted to do to me she caught me by the hand and made me stand at the door of the house i was breathless then and when my breathing became normal she took some water and rubbed my face and hands with it then she took me into the house there in the house i saw some Ansari women who said best wishes and Allah's blessing and a good luck then she entrusted me to them and they prepared me for the marriage unexpectedly Allah's messenger came to me in the forenoon and my mother handed me over to him and at that time i was a girl of nine years old imagine the scene little girl on a swing little Aisha girl needs a babysitter playing on a little swing and Muhammad climbed on top of her there are a lot more passages like this in Bukhari but we find the same thing over and over again so we'll go just go through some examples Sahih Muslim Sahih Muslim 3481 it was narrated from Aisha that the prophet married her when she was seven years old and she was taken to him as a bride when she was nine years old and she took her dolls with her he died when she was 18 years old how old was she nine years old sex at nine it's not very noble Sunan Abu Da'ud 2121 Aisha narrated the messenger of Allah married me while it was a girl of seven years Suleiman one of the narrators said or six and he consummated the marriage when i was a girl of nine how old was she nine years old Sunan on the side 3380 it was narrated that Aisha said the messenger of Allah married me when i was six and consummated the marriage with me when i was nine and i used to play with dolls girl was six when he began the betrothal but she was too small so Muhammad waited how was she consummation nine years old still playing with the doll Sunan ibn Maja 1877 it was narrated that Abdullah said the prophet married Aisha when she was seven years old and consummated the marriage with her when she was nine and he passed away when she was 18 Muhammad this is the man that Allah chose as the pattern of conduct for Muslims he saw a little girl and said give me that body how old was she nine years old oh look there's a footnote here the marriage bond of a girl who is not yet an adult i.e. has not reached the age of puberty is perfectly valid in Islam i wonder where they got that idea hint prophet mode Sunan ibn Maja 1982 it was narrated that Aisha said i used to play with dolls when i was with the messenger of Allah and he used to bring my friends to me to play with me you noticed all the references to dolls Aisha always got her dolls with her as it turns out saying a girl was still playing with dolls was the Islamic way of saying that the girl hadn't reached puberty we can see this in Bukhari Bukhari includes some parenthetical commentary from ibn Hajar al-askalani considered the greatest hadith scholar of all time Bukhari 6130 narrated Aisha i used to play with the dolls in the presence of the prophet and my girlfriends also used to play with me when Allah's messenger used to enter my dwelling place they used to hide themselves but the prophet would call them to join and play with me the playing with dolls and similar images is forbidden but it was allowed for Aisha at that time as she was a little girl not yet reached the age of puberty did you catch that not yet reached the age of puberty not only did Muhammad like to watch Aisha playing with her little friends you also like to play like to watch her playing with dolls dolls are images images are forbidden in Islam so why was Aisha allowed to continue playing with dolls passage tells us she was a little girl not yet reached the age of puberty not according to me according to Islam's most trusted sources henry's puberty we can sum up the testimony of the hadith with a passage from ibn kathir this four volume biography of Muhammad ibn kathir writes after quoting so in his four volume commentary he eventually quotes urwa ibn al-zubair that's Aisha's nephew who says that Aisha was nine when Muhammad consummated the marriage then after quoting urwa on the age of Aisha ibn kathir says this his statement he contracted marriage with Aisha when she was six thereafter consummating marriage with her when she was nine is not disputed by anyone and is well established in the in the sahih collections of traditions and elsewhere when scholars disagreed on some topic ibn kathir would point it out he would draw attention to the disagreements on this issue he specifically says no one disagrees on this how old was she nine years old so how do our muslim friends respond well we're going to hand this over to kenny now i have some idea of some of the responses but we'll see where kenny goes with this thank you very much we'll kick it over to kenny for his 23 minute opening statement as well kenny the floor is all yours okay mr mr moderated before we start the time i'd like to say that i want to acknowledge that david wood his son recently passed away so my condolences go to him on that i do bear witness there's no god other than Allah and i bear witness that Muhammad is his final servant the seal of our prophets i would like to thank james and everyone with modern day debate for organizing this and inviting me once again and because david wood because david wood is known to have cross-dressed a few times time or two i would like to give him as a token of our debate relationship a copy of my most recent book your right to self-identify my right to disagree who is oppressing whom so with that being said uh mr moderator i'll go ahead and start my time so was muhammad's marriage to aitha aisha rather ethical peace and blessings be upon the both what we should be asking ourselves is how can a religiously valid marriage be anything but ethical i'd like the world to remember this if nothing else throughout the course of this debate there's no written record of anyone accusing the prophet peace be upon him of any wrongdoing and no one claiming that this marriage was unethical before the year 1905 this is strictly a slander produced in modern times and fortunately in opening my argument i have a quote a quotation by someone whose words will be accepted even by my opponent even david would have to agree with this this is a quote by a non expert on religious matters uh in a in a recent video published this very year just last month march 2023 and in that topic uh that that the topic of that video the person was discussing two hadith in particular that relate to aisha's age at quote unquote consummation the person says and i quote we have all kinds of reasons for believing aisha had not reached puberty according to the muslim sources but there are some hadiths that muslim used in the west to show that aisha had in fact reached puberty well now i'm just confused everyone i mean it looked like we had good evidence that aisha had reached puberty that she had started menstruating would take it to muhammad to quote unquote consummate the marriage and there are muslims all over the world who use this hadith to show that aisha had in fact reached puberty but i look at a different translation of the exact same hadith and it doesn't say one word about aisha menstruating so now i am just confused i don't know what to believe here i don't speak arabic and so who was that person in that recent video it was none other than david would himself and in that recent video david would was acknowledging contradictions within the hadith they caused him so much confusion he said i don't know what to believe so so let's remember that as we proceed we talk about his double standards so allow me to lay the foundation of my argument in this debate by rehashing a few things from the previous debate during that debate i presented evidence to establish reasonable doubt my argument was based on conflicting evidence that's produced conflicting theories amongst modern and classical scholars both muslim and non-muslim alike and my argument was based on the same type of conflicting evidence that david would has admitted to being so confused by he admitted to being confused because conflicting evidence means there's reason for uncertainty skepticism confusion that he's admitted to and that's therefore a reasonable doubt so we should ask ourselves does an honest jury in modern times convict people when evidence produces skepticism and in confusion and uncertainty you know no it doesn't they're not supposed to a jury in modern times is instructed to presume the accused innocent unless evident unless guilt is clear beyond a reasonable doubt but even in the admitted confusion of david would he chooses to accuse and convict mohammed peace be upon him by relying on the opinions of some classical scholars while ignoring other classical scholars who have rejected what has been proven to be questionable and fabricated had he also attempts to discredit the in-depth research of modern scholars by claiming that they're somehow looking for excuses because they are ashamed of the prophet peace be upon him however i haven't heard any of him say that uh so i'm not sure exactly where he drew those conclusions from but the reality is modern scholars have the luxury of using modern technology to look at all the evidence presented which was a luxury that wasn't necessarily afforded to classical scholars of hadid but by using gross double standards david would use his modern accusations that once again did not exist before 1905 to accuse the prophet peace be upon him but refuses to accept the modern scholarship that's used to defend him and that in fact is a double standard so however let's let's make it clear that i don't i don't need to solely rely on modern scholarship because as i'll demonstrate in due course uh there was disagreement about the reliability of the age of aisha quote-unquote consummation hadith even amongst classical scholars of hadid many of whom who knew the primary source of those hadith hisham ibn urwa and rejected the hadith in question deeming them to be unreliable hisham ibn urwa died in the eighth century but hadid didn't start being classified as sahi meaning reliable or da'if meaning unreliable until the ninth century but you know why do i say david would use his modern accusations i say that because the first person on record making this an unwarranted accusation was an english scholar of oxford university another david long behold named david marguluth in his work mohammed and the rise of islam published in 1905 and this is why dr jonathan brown by example says in his book mohammed a short introduction he says and i quote interestingly no critic no critic of mohammed from his fiercest opponents in the chorus to mid-evil christian clerics objected to his marriage to aisha until the modern period so for all of that time up until 1905 everyone thought that this marriage was perfectly ethical so ask yourself is it intellectually honest and morally acceptable to accuse someone of wrongdoing when the evidence against them is debatable what makes something debatable maryem wepster says it's something open to dispute something capable of being debated something open to interpretation cambridge says it's something that's not clear or certain because different people hold different opinions so regarding the opinions of classical scholars of hadith versus modern scholars of hadith yes it's true again that some classical scholars of hadith such as ibn kathir and a few of his contemporaries said that there was consensus of agreement about isha's age at quote-unquote consummation uh but what does this word consummation mean and we're going to address that here shortly later in the debate the fact is those early scholars were relying on what's been proven to be questionable and fabricated hadith with the common link hisham ibn urwa as the original original primary source and he and his students were of the al shafi school of thought in islamic jurisprudence which originated in iraq it was the only school of thought to have endorsed child marriage so those early scholars were also and and those those people were also repeating one another on the issue in a similar way that david wood by example repeats and uses the works of shamsham on from the answering islam website and as we've seen in our current political environment when lives are repeated often enough they become facts in the minds of uneducated and gullible people so during the previous debate i clearly stated that i wasn't there to debate hadith what i did argue without the need to take time to break down multiple hadith because it's very time consuming are the very are the conflicting views that classical and modern scholars have held about them conflicting views exist because the evidence is debatable facts aren't debatable people don't debate about whether or not fire is hot but they do and always have for centuries debated about these hadith in particular that are in question here today but so the there must be standards to go by and i'm saying all this is a as a sunni muslim who believes in the sciences of the hadith but also believe in using fairer objective standards when studying and drawing conclusions from them so allow me to make a point when lawyers present evidence in court they often bring in expert witnesses in forensics by example the lawyers themselves don't break down the specifics about forensics they have the experts do it and in turn the lawyers give an overview of those findings of those experts via bullet points to either confirm the evidence or to establish reasonable doubt that's what i did in the previous debate by mentioning 10 books by muslim and non-muslim scholars and articles by many others whose findings about the age of aisha differed they all apply in different ages from yes is our earliest nine years old to as old as 21 and i didn't come up with those numbers the experts did and i simply gave an honest representation of those findings uh and again they are muslim and non-muslim scholars and historians who have studied and analyzed these these works in depth and the works of previous scholars so keep in mind that during this debate i'm going to mention the works of non-muslim scholars and i'll tell you why is along with muslim scholars and i mentioned non-muslim scholars because they have no dog in the fight they they give their opinions and they can't be accused of making excuses and being ashamed of Muhammad peace be upon them like david wood likes to accuse the muslim scholars of as we have seen here today and so like expert witnesses in a court case when scholars who have studied the age of aisha quote unquote consummation hadee in depth when they come to various conclusions they do so because the evidence is again conflicting and when experts give conflicting statements in a in a in a trial um an honest person would only conclude that there's no way to convict the accused because the evidence is again debatable based on conflicting conflicting views of the experts that may cause doubt and yes the confusion that david wood has admitted to in his recent video so there must be standards to go by not the double standards of a person like david wood but fair objective standards so addressing the principles of hadith standards and their acceptance with the institute of islamic jurisprudence on the dar left eye website principle number three says clearly scholars can disagree about the authenticity of a particular hadith they say and i quote since classifying hadiths is based on the independent research of each scholar sometimes we find mixed opinions of expert scholars regarding the authenticity of a particular narrator or hadith they say remember that when a scholar says that a hadith is sahi meaning reliable or daif meaning unreliable it's not a factual statement it's merely his personal opinion based on his independent research at in his time principle number four says a sahi or reliable hadith may also be be considered daif or unreliable in later times they say the following and i quote and this may be hard for even some muslims to hear but they say and i quote at times it is possible that an earlier scholar finds a particular hadith to be completely authentic when it reaches him through the companions the companions of the prophet meaning the sahaba and those succeeding them the tabiyum and however they say a weakness in the chain of narration could have appeared as it progresses that past that imam and in such an instance it would be wrong to accuse the earlier imam of using a weak hadith if it was perceivably sahi meaning reliable in his time but daif or unreliable after that later on therefore they say a hadith which was regarded as daif in imam imam bukhari's time for example was not necessarily as such at the time of the earlier scholars and the same applies in current times for a hadith that imam bukhari would have listed as sahi or reliable then after further scrutiny is found to be unreliable which is the case with the age of aisha quote-unquote consummation hadith under question here today principle number five says how they're answering the question how authentic is a sahi hadith and do we leave uh okay so how authentic is the sahi hadith they say the following and i quote imam iban al-salah the renowned hadith expert states in his mukadima that just because a hadith is given the status of being sahi or reliable does not necessitate that in actual fact it is undeniably sahi or reliable it merely means that from a technical aspect in terms of fulfilling the five conditions of collecting the hadith that the hadith is sahi and therefore will most likely be sahi in actual terms as well but they say however there remains a possibility that even a hadith considered a sahi may not actually be as such since a reliable narrator can make mistakes but they say but the possibility is not given any credit unless there are indications and strong proofs elsewhere such as a hadith opposing a clear chronic verse or the more authentic hadith and in both of these cases david wood's going to find out here in a moment uh these hadith in question fall into both of these categories and they say if these strong proofs are found it's perfectly acceptable not to act upon or accept those sahi or so-called reliable hadith so let's keep those principles in mind while considering the views of the following uh scholar of hadith in october 2022 dr joshua little ironically also of oxford university was wrote an article titled why i studied the aisha hadith while discussing his dissertation on this topic dr little is a non-muslim scholar of hadith with no dog in the fight and an admitted former islamic phobe who originally began studying these very hadith that we're talking about in his own words to attack islam and just like david wood gets paid to do and in dr little's dissertation videos and articles and so forth he mentions many of the exact same points that i've previously mentioned in the other debate and those that i'll mention here today thereby confirming my arguments in both the previous and current debate and he says in his article and i quote i first encountered the hadith of aisha's marital uh aisha's marital age as a teenage new atheist in islamic phobe and he says naturally islamic phobes will assert that the muslim acceptance of the authenticity of these hadith causes child marriage amongst muslims therefore he says by criticizing muslims for accepting this hadith islamic phobes claim that they're somehow making the world a better place but he says this is false on two accounts firstly most islamic phobes are simply lying or deluding themselves when a muslim does reject the hadith in question islamic phobes will point out that the hadith is canonical at least the sunni muslims such that the muslim must accept it but he says if the goal of the islamic phobes really to eradicate child marriage and this makes no sense why are they taunting their muslim interlocutor or indeed arguing in such a way to move their muslim interlocutor towards accepting a hadith that validates child marriage he says if however the true intention of the or impulse of the islamic phobes simply to lash out at muslims like david wood always does then this makes perfect sense he says no matter what the position the muslims take islamic phobes will find some pretext to attack them he says this is true of most bigots and their sided rationales invariably turn out to be pretext and their real motivation is simply a deep-seating resentment hatred and discomfort towards the given target group and this year sounds like he's describing david wood to me and these are also points that i mentioned in the previous debate when i said by attacking the credibility of the prophet peace be upon him islamophobes are indirectly attacking all muslims and islam in general so the honesty of dr joshua little was quite profound but once again he is a non muslim scholar of hadith with no dog in the fight and he's describing the thinking tactics and motivation of islamophobes he's describing the tactics of a person just like david wood so each and every description dr describes david wood to a t excluding force the financial gain that he receives from his followers who keep showering him with money for his ongoing efforts to discredit islam so it's important to note that dr joshua little has again no dog in the fight and he claims and i quote that every single one of the age of aisha quote unquote consummation hadith were developed from a single unreliable source so in addressing the findings of dr little an article by muslim brother dr javad hashm with the study of religion at harvard university also known as the impactful scholar on youtube he said the following in his article oxford study sheds light on muhammad's quote unquote underage wife aisha new scholarship suggests the story of islam's prophet marrying a minor is baseless propaganda fabricated for political and sectarian motive motives and he says the following his article and i quote after analyzing all the various versions of the isha marital report dr little concludes the hadith was fabricated whole cloth by a narrator named hisham ibn urwa after he relocated to iraq little includes other reports such as isha reportedly playing with dolls in muhammad's household in his overall critical assessment deeming them to be partisan sectarian and political stories that are historically untrue in other words he says critical historians have little reason to believe aisha was in fact married as a child what makes little's contribution especially noteworthy says is that he argues the case from a rigorous academic perspective even refining a scholarly methodology called the ishnad kumatan analysis and he says it should of course be noted that even within classical islamic tradition there has always been reason to doubt the isha marital hadith that are in question here today as little writes in his dissertation hisham ibn urwa the originator of the report was considered unreliable even according to traditional criteria at least after he relocated to iraq he was accused of senality and a form of academic deception called tattilus which is either it's either outright lying or a slapping us in transmission or both and according to little the claim about aisha's age was once again a part of a medieval sectarian propaganda concocted by a sunni figure to bolster the image of aisha against Shiite detractors and this is why dr dr jonathan brown says in his work how we know early hadith critics did modern criticism he says the following i quote he says i'm not suggesting that a hadith critics like albukhari and ibn hanbal were forerunners in the historical critical method meaning that they weren't and he's been quoting them they weren't analyzing these hadith in that way he says as generations of western scholars have demonstrated even the revered sahin the people that he's mentioned a moment ago are replete with anachronistic reports that grew out of a political legal and sectarian feuds of the first two centuries of islam end of quote but maybe david wood needs the awards of even earlier muslim scholar who already came to these same conclusions many years before muhammad haykal in the book life muhammad a book i've had over 30 years i mentioned in the previous debate published in 1930 he says and i quote after muhammad's death the muslims differed and they fabricated thousands of hadith and reports to support their various causes and upon the murder of uthman civil war broke out amongst the muslims and aisha fought against ali and ali's supporters and the fabrication of thousands of hadith spread to the point that ali had to reject the practice and warn against it but he said this didn't stop the hadith narrators from fabricating their stories either in support of a cause they advocated or of a virtue or practice that they thought would have appeal invested in prophetic tradition he says hadith narrators deprecated the prophetic traditions reported by the party of ali and those reported by the party of aisha and he says this is why the objective researcher the objective researcher investigating these books must therefore have a standard by which he can evaluate these various claims end of quote so again not the double standards of a person like david wood but fair objective standards so in regards to these standards back to the institute of islamic jurisprudence regarding addressing the standards of hadith principle number seven they're answering the question what happens if two authentic hadiths contradict one another and they say that just having a stronger chain of narration doesn't necessitate a hadith superiority they said this is one of the many reasons why it's not recommended for people who do not possess the mastery of hadith which david wood does not have to take up a position where they devise their own rulings on what they understand from the hadiths that they read more than often they say they will find many contradictions in the hadith collections and this will lead them to unnecessary confusion that david wood has admitted to strife and conflict with others that david wood always tries to cause and division amongst the muslim body of believers that david wood tries to instigate so in his admitted confusion about the hadith david wood is certainly guilty of causing the strife and confusion and the conflict with the others and attacking the muslim body of believers but know what what author carolin bow says and once again a non-muslim scholar with no dog in the fight in her book her monograph rather minor marriage in early islamic law she says and i quote that numerous debates still swirl about the authenticity of the narrative of aisha's marital age implying that these these debates have gone on for centuries she also mentions another strong point which is and i quote the seeming absence of this hadith from early islamic law where we might otherwise expect its usage in early islamic jurisprudence she also mentions that imam malik a very well respected scholar of hadith imam malik is one of the many jurists who do not rely on the hadith by hisham eban urwa and those of his students and also mentions that eban tamia and eban alkayam also shy away from its usage and regarding hadith of aisha's marriage to the prophet peace be upon them both with the international journal of islamic discourse volume 21 published june 2022 they say the following and listen to what these early scholars had to say they say clearly that the rejection of these hadith was also posed by malik eban anas hisham eban urwa's former student who became a prominent scholar with himself who did not accept the hadith by hisham eban urwa his own teacher while he was in iraq their next source on volume volume 11 page 50 says i have been told that imam malik objected on those narratives of hisham eban urwa in the reports that reported from the people in iraq the third source states that when he was old hisham eban urwa's memory suffered quite badly so in closing i've demonstrated that no early enemy of muhammad ever made that this claim that this marriage was anything but ethical they never say it was unethical now i've given an overview of the on the opinions of multiple scholars who have questioned the reliability of all the aisha marital hadith that were generated over time from a single unreliable source and i'll expound upon that as we proceed and i've also discussed the principle principles of hadith standards both before and after eban kathir by the way with scholars who disagreed with them because of the conflict that existed between the age of aisha quote unquote consummation hadith and other historical events mentioned in more reliable hadith and also according to the institute of islamic jurisprudence all scholars are giving their opinions and opinions aren't necessarily factual which means that there's reason for doubt so are the hadiths open to dispute interpretation and debate yes here we are still debating this topic is the reason for confusion that david wood is admitted to yes the hadith are the evidence about the hadith is questionable and debatable therefore there's no there's depth there's reason for doubt and confusion that david wood is admitted to therefore there should be no justifiable reason to accuse muhammad of any wrongdoing or to suggest that this marriage was anything but ethical and i will close with that thank you for listening thank you very much for that opening we are going to kick it into the rebuttal section we'll start with david these are 12 minute rebuttals david the floor is all yours thank you kenny uh kenny has a picture of me in my life's nighting pretty creepy that he carries that around but he left out the fact that i was making fun of muhammad in that video because there are tons of hadiths where muhammad used to dress up in his wife's garments but maybe those hadiths are also horribly unreliable as for the act check check as for the actual topic i'm seeing a tremendous irony in some of my recent debates these debates are turning into david wood defender of orthodox islamic sources versus muslims attacking and destroying their own most trusted islamic sources these are great times to live in my friends i have to say though muslims if we now live in a world where david wood has become the defender of islamic orthodoxy you guys got problems in my opening statement i pointed out that according to the quran muhammad's marriage to aisha was perfectly acceptable because the quran allows sex with prepubescent girls so i don't know why kenny is so sensitive about this issue and attacking the idea that muhammad would have sex with a prepubescent girl when the quran clearly allows it i pointed out that according to islam's most trusted sources muhammad married aisha when she was six or seven years old and he consummated marriage when she was nine years old i specifically quoted what sahi al-bukhari sahi muslim sunan abodad sunan anasai and sunan ibn maja these are supposedly the best most reliable sources on the life and teachings there's a silence button kenny um these are supposedly the best sources on muhammad's life and teachings if they're wrong this means that islam's best most reliable sources are pretty unreliable ibn kathir one of the most respected muslim scholars in history a man who knew the muslim sources better than everyone here combined said that no one disputes the fact that aisha was none kenny thinks that this hadith originates with hisham ibn urwah we'll we'll talk about that in a bit but keep in mind hisham is aisha's grand-nephew who says he got this from his father urwah ibn al-zubair one of the most trusted hadith uh collector i mean one of the most uh trusted traitors in hadiths and he knew aisha so if you want to just say hisham's making this up he's a liar i hope you're prepared to stand before a law and explain why you're calling hisham a liar um as far as islamic scholars on this you do have differences of opinion between scholars so let me give you an example uh muhammad salah ibn munaj who runs the islamic scholars website islam q and a lots of interesting stuff in there uh he says in his article on this topic where it was being pointed out that hey there are some people who actually dispute the age of aisha he writes the definition of the age of aisha when the prophet did the marriage contract with her as being six years and of the age when he consummated the marriage with her as being nine years is not a matter of it's an individual opinion on the part of scholars such that we could argue whether it is right or wrong rather this is a historical narration which is proven by evidence that confirms its soundness and the necessity of accepting it and then he gives a ton of reasons we can go into more of them i'll just give a uh i'll just give a couple a couple of examples he says one it was narrated by the individual concerned herself namely aisha and it's not something that someone else said about her or the description of a historian or hadith scholar rather it comes in the context of her speaking about herself two the report from aisha is in the soundest of books after the book of Allah namely the two sahiz of abukari and muslim which i quoted three it was narrated from aisha via a number of chains of narration not by only one is not only as some ignorant people claim and he goes on and on and on he also addresses the claim that uh isham ibn urwa was uh was uh uh had a faulty memory and so on he attacks that he says this came from one guy and it's not even what he meant and you can't trust that you can't trust that we have other people generally trust hisham ibn urwa but he goes on to point out there are reports from all kinds of people even reports that don't include hisham ibn urwa says there are reports from people other than aisha that speak of the prophet's marriage to her when she was nine years old five this is what aisha narrated concerning herself and it was conveyed by the narratives narrators from her and is what is stated in all the historical sources that give the biography of aisha there is no difference among them concerning that six the historical sources are also agreed that aisha blah blah blah anyway he gives a a well i don't know how much of i want to read this because i definitely want to get to joshua a little all right let me go on to uh to some of kenny's other points here um kenny cites jonathan brown that's weird brown was asked about the hadiths on mohammed's age to marrow and she was nine and how they would stack up against criticism he said i think it's an authentic report in fact i think the scholar whose work does represent the state in the field of the field in western scholarship on hadith the german scholar herald muskie if you were to take his methods of dating hadiths i think you could date that report of aisha back to actually about the time of aisha so he's saying you can date this to the time of aisha using the methodology of critical scholars of hadiths so pretty strange to attribute it to someone later kenny appeals kenny appeals to joshua little to reject this hadith he says joshua little has no dog in this fight that's nonsense of course little repeatedly says that he's combating islamophobia and he's going to take this argument away from islamophobes and so on and also he wrote his master's thesis arguing that uh aisha wasn't nine years old and then later of course he rejected his own argument and then presented a new one so it kind of looks like he's you know taken multiple cracks at trying to respond to this um but he did write his doctoral dissertation on the age of aisha and he does conclude that you can't trust these sources uh what kenny doesn't seem to tell anyone is that joshua little thinks the hadith are garbage not not these hadith in particular hadiths in general are garbage let me tell you a joshua little since uh this is pretty big part of kenny's case there's a quote from his dissertation that hadith are unreliable that given any that a given matin cannot be taken at face value as an accurate datum from the first islamic century and that any given asnad cannot be taken at face value as an accurate record of a matin's provenance cannot be seriously contested for multiple reasons and his first point is pretty pretty much everyone christians jews uh muslims everyone was making stuff up by back then that's his first point he says secondly there is the high frequency of contradictions within the hadith corpus which necessitates the occurrence of a huge amount of fabrication interpolation and or mutation and therefore skepticism towards any given hadith thirdly there is the ubiquity of fabrication and interpolation both reported and demonstrable in the hadith corpus which again casts doubt upon the rest of the corpus fourthly there is the rapid extreme mutation and growth of reports that evidently took place over the course of a century or more of oral transmission which means that any given matin matin is like the content of the story so what's the story being reported which means that any given matin regardless of the asnad is likely at best heavily distorted and at worst obliterated beyond its original form fifthly there is the belated emergence of hadith as a genre and corpus largely during the eighth and ninth centuries which straightforwardly precludes the authenticity of most ascriptions to the seventh century joshua little thinks these hadiths are garbage to be clear he does believe you can occasionally find relevant points or material about muhammad there but it's basically like walking through a garbage dump to him you can walk through a garbage dump and find some useful things you can walk through a garbage dump and say oh look here's a toothbrush hardly been used you can find things in a garbage dump that's how he treats the hadiths now he wouldn't say garbage dump but you i just read you what he said it's like a garbage dump going to the hadiths this is the man that kenny is relying on to argue that aisha was not nine years old when muhammad had sex with her uh but i have to say kenny yes if we're treating these hadiths like garbage if we're treating sahih al-bukhari sahih muslim sunan al-badawad like garbage that you can sift through and maybe using the methods of western critical scholars come up with something by an argument but that other than that you just can't trust you have to you have to approach them with extreme skepticism if you're arguing that kenny i will agree with you that if you use that methodology you don't have to conclude that muhammad married aisha because you can't conclude much of anything about muhammad you don't have anything to go on if your most reliable sources are garbage congratulations we don't know how old aisha was because we don't know much of anything about muhammad it was written it was a bunch of material written by liars and passed around by morons that's not my position we are once again in the very strange position where i have more respect for muslim historians than muslims do this isn't a these are great times to live and i have to say so there are really only two possibilities here before us either islam's most trusted sources keep in mind there are all kinds of sources and they are kind of ranked according to their level of authority kenny keeps insisting on maybe these hadiths kenny these these collections they come up with they have they even have little grades at the bottom of them over and over and over again when you read the hadiths about aisha sahi sahi sahi sahi sahi so you're talking about multiple sahi narrations spread around the various collections and it's josh will little who said there's there there's there are over 200 he counts over 200 of these he thinks they're all wrong i'm fine with that if you want to say we don't know anything about muhammad the sources are garbage we don't know anything about him great you can do that you can you can you can tell us if kenny if you're if you want to go down that road i'll go down that road with you but you got to pay the toll and the toll is you don't know anything about your profit so stop dressing like him walking like i'm talking like him because you don't know anything about him thanks david for that rebuttal will go to kenny for a 12 minute rebuttal as well kenny the floor is yours okay thank you i would like to thank david wood for proving my argument this these things that he's quoting from about these hadith in question that dr little's talking about we're talking about these specific hadith that we're talking about today not all hadith he's talking specifically you can look it up for yourself all for all the little gigglers out here in the front row you can go and look this article up yourself why i studied the aisha marital hadith by dr josh will little and he's talking about only the hadith from his sham ibn urwah and those of his students he's not talking about all of the hadith like david wood is saying and you mentioned as i mentioned that dr little says in his article that the salamaphobes are usually lying or deluding themselves right lying or deluding themselves david wood is being deceptive in that he's not telling you that the hadith in question are not all hadith again dr josh will little is addressing specific hadith that are related to aisha's marital age and all of those from his sham ibn urwah not just those from his sham ibn urwah but all of those from his students that all came from iraq where in the al shafi school of thought where child marriage is accepted only those hadith is he calling garbage and so am i so let's let's walk hand in hand if you want to although i won't shake your hand because i told you earlier that i would not and i told you why because again this is comedy hour for a person like david wood he uses mockery and shock value and trying to make it seem that he knows something that he doesn't actually he knows more than than than he's he's given uh uh uh than than he's relaying to his followers he's only giving you a half half of the story just like he did here today prime example prime example so let's say let's say for the sake of argument let's say for the sake of argument and despite all the evidence to the contrary that aisha was in fact nine years old at the time of quote unquote consummation what does this word mean and allow me to recall the two hadith that david wood mentioned in his recent uh uh video where he said he was so confused hadith 4915 and 4933 and abu dowood what says the following and i quote some women came to me and while i was swinging they took me and made me prepared and decorated me and i was then brought to the messenger of Allah and he took a cohabitation with me when i was nine now note none of these hadith in question not a single one says the the prophet had sex with me when i was nine none of them say that so why would translators use the word consummation and somehow adi and use the word cohabitation in others is because it's some big cover up because the muslims are somehow ashamed of looking for excuses or could it be that these hadith or these words are synonymous with one another and that a marriage in islam is actually ethical and considered quote unquote consummated upon cohabitation either with or without sex so before i address those points allowing me to address the double standards of david wood again according to the bible isaac married the possibly three to ten-year-old rebecca and that evidence is debatable and marry the mother of jesus peace be upon them both is depicted as marrying the levin the 90 to 80 to nine-year-old uh joseph when she was 11 or 12 years old the evidence is there is debatable so were those marriages ethical and consummated and did those couples cohabit with one another is it possible they ever seen ever seen anyone another naked well sure there is with or without sex they i don't believe they had sex so why doesn't david wood accuse them of pedophilia and attack them it's because he has double standards but personally i have no problem with those marriages and i'll tell you why because in my research according to christian canon law which is strikingly similar to the laws of marital laws of judaism and islam out as i'll demonstrate the marriages of these those marriages are both uh were both ethical and consummated even without sex so according to so as far as consummation and cohabitation these words are synonymous according to the saris dot plus it says cohabitation and consummation are semantically the same so consummation defined by dictionary dot com is to bring to a state of perfection to fulfill build establish no mention of sex being required for that to complete an arrangement or agreement or the like by the pledge of assigning of a contract they use the example of the company consummated its deal to to buy a smaller firm no sex was required for that deal to go through uh maryam webster described goes on to say that consummation is described as the consummation of a contract by mutual signature you can consummate a deal by mutual signature no sex required and they say specifically the consummation of marriage through mutual agreement again a couple can get married they don't necessarily have to have sex of course they're probably going to eventually but uh the ultimate end to to finish to establish no mention of sex for that being required cohabitation is defined by maryam webster as to live together as a married couple married couples can live together with or without sex they cohabit in a small apartment as the example they use and look at the example of the prophet Muhammad cohabiting with aisha in a small room peace and blessings be upon the both to live together in one another's company people can live together in one another's company with or without sex to exist together people can do that with or without sex so both consummation and cohabitation are used to establish relationships with or without sex so uh what's the arabic word that's used the arabic word in the hadith is banabiha sometimes you see wabana or thabana biha wabana biha you may see um um other over other slight derivatives but most of the time you'll see the word banabiha for the word consummation or cohabitation as a matter of fact they use it for both words all right banabiha which means to build establish cohabit that's the definition in the arabic well lo and behold in the in the biblical hebrew the word bani that's mileage of the word bani in the biblical hebrew from the verb bana once again according to abraham publications says the definition is to build establish begin or forge no mention of sex being required to do those things and according to fatwa 127305 regarding the word bana biha used in the hadith in question here today it says al mubarak a very well respected scholar of hadith said according to the master masterpiece of al awani another great scholar of hadith said the words in the hadith bani biha translated is consummated and or cohabitation in the hadith means to build or establish a home for the woman to enter into you can do that with or without sex even abu zaid al kawani he differed slightly saying the meaning what means to establish a relationship or a union in the name of Allah no need of no mention of sex being required al barui from the shafi school stated that the terms means to be shrouded together is a is a thunder a tunic or a covering or a hijab or a as a garment of husband and wife being a garment for one another in a close quarter where sexual intercourse could take place doesn't mean it's a requirement for the marriage to be ethically established so it's reported by our shehab that even malik and even in abu said that the words abu that bani biha means in the hadith that a husband and wife have entered into an islamically acceptable agreement and that means touching and kissing are now acceptable that doesn't mean that they can't still establish obviously they can cohabit with one another in a quote unquote consummated and ethical marriage even before sex happened and i remind you that the prophet himself peace be upon him um no let me go to the the code of canon law to discuss uh double standards of david wood for a moment in the code of canon law by example it says the consent of the parties in 1057.1 code of canon law title title seven uh 10 10 57.1 by by example says the in christian canon law says the consent of parties legitimately manifested between persons qualified law makes marriage doesn't say that sex is a requirement not that they won't eventually have sex but the marriage is established upon the consummation and cohabitation of the couple 10 57.2 says matrimonial consent is the active will by which a man and woman accept one another in a covenant in order to establish marriage they can do that before the sex takes place 10 61.1 says listen closely a valid marriage in christianity between baptized people is called ratum tantum even if no sexual intercourse is taking place so are those marriages ethical and valid upon consummation uh i mean consummated upon upon cohabitation yes they are marion joseph did it didn't they they cohabit with one another and travel around without having sexual relations was their marriage unethical was it consummated was a legitimate marriage well yes it was so is it fair to presume at all that the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him if in fact aisha was nine years old even though the evidence is highly debatable would presume uh is it fair to presume that the prophet could establish a relationship with with aisha and cohabit it with her and waited until she was physically and mentally and emotionally prepared to have sex before he did so is it at all possible yes it is therefore there's reason for doubt and and you shouldn't accuse uh someone uh in regards to this so so consummation of marriage without without intercourse in islam consummation of marriage without in islam without intercourse in islam you can find this information on the math of our website the article says there a marriage in islam is still valid if sexual intercourse is not taking place as per the comfort and mutual agreement of the couple in islam they say quote unquote consummation of marriage occurs when the couple spend time together after the marriage in seclusion and or privacy they state clearly in this article that you can find yourself intercourse is not necessary for consummation of marriage from an islamic point of view this is the greed upon position of the majority of jurors including the hanafi the jafari the maliki the hanbali schools of thought and this was also the four opinions of the four caliphs after the prophet Muhammad those are the most reliable sources in islam the four schools of thought and the four caliphs after the prophet Muhammad who all agreed that a marriage is ethical and valid in islam when you go have it with your wife with or without sex the prophet peace be upon him had set him himself did this and the el shafi school is the only school of thought that said that you have to have sexual intercourse for this to be a legitimate marriage but again that's from the el shafi school of thought from iraq where these hadith and question here today originated that was on their their their school of thought and most most Muslims do not accept that so according to the prophet himself in authentic adith is found in our adult al-khutni you can read about it the prophet peace be upon him was recording is saying the husband who lifts the veil of his wife following the the marriage ceremony the nikah and looks at her privately the mahar the bridal gift becomes mandatory whether he had sex with her or not so therefore they're living together cohabiting ethically with and without sex with and without sex and it's recorded in an tafsir al-hawi that imam uh even omar may Allah be pleased with him said that when the doors are closed and the curtains are drawn and nudity is seen the bride is entitled her mahar the bridal gift and inheritance and must complete the waiting period before sex can take place so therefore they are living together uh in an ethical marriage consummated cohabiting with and without with before and after sex okay so in the sealed nectar we have the example where the prophet himself did this he had two wives that did not consummate marriage through sexual relations in the sealed nectar biography of the prophet page 485 it says the two wives that Muhammad peace be upon him never had sexual intercourse with one from the tribe of bani qalab and the other one from the royal arabian tribe of the banoa mustali so to summarize the prophet peace be upon him 30 cohabited with he cohabited with two of his wives in consummated marriages without having sex with them was it was an ethical consummated ethical marriages cohabiting with them did not have sex with them the marriage was still valid muslim can marry divorced muslim women and cohabit with them in a consummated marriage with the requirement of waiting to kind of move three months yes sir and so i'll close with that we'll jump into the six minute rebuttals and then after that we'll have 25 minutes of open dialogue with that david the floor is yours for six minutes uh kenny says joshua little uh wasn't talking about hadith in general he was only referring to these specific hadiths about the age of aisha and kenny there are only two possibilities in this world either you haven't read his dissertation at all or you're lying those are the two possibilities no i i've never seen anyone who who has more contempt for the hadiths in general and by the way i already i i just quoted him for you that hadith not a specific hadith this is on his introduction to his methodology so it's before he goes through the hadiths about about mohammed and aisha his met his chat as a matter of fact this is chapter one chapter one methods and debates that hadith are unreliable that any given mountain cannot be taken at face value as an accurate datum from first century of islam and that any given is not cannot be taken at face value as an accurate record of a man's provenance cannot be seriously contested for multiple reasons then he goes through all those all those reasons about how there are all these general problems for these sources if you if you keep if you continue reading uh or if you listen to his lectures he's pretty clear he believes that in early islam things were regional like there's the area of kufa and there's the area of syria and there's the area of mecca and there's the area of medina and these guys they had some commonalities like on how many daily prayers or and so on other than that they're contradicting each other left and right and it's later on it's later on when you eventually get to this pan islamic consolidation where they come up with a methodology and then they're picking and choosing ah we'll take this from mecca we'll take this from kufa and so on because the islam back then just completely contradicting i mean everyone was contradicting everyone else and so when they had to sort of consolidate and come up with what is real islam they came up with this methodology this hadith criticism and so on and then joshua little's view is that these people are all arguing amongst themselves and if you're into it if you and i are in an argument i just go back i write a hadith that supports me and i attach a list of names on it because that was the new official islamic method joshua little believed that these people were cooking up hadiths like they cook up falafel and the population just gobbling it up like it's ramadan so that's that's that's joshua little's view again if you read it he treats the hadiths like a garbage dump of course you can't trust the hadiths about muhammad and isha because you can't trust the hadiths in general so again kenny either you're not familiar with what he actually said or you're just flat out lying because there's no way you can read that that dissertation and think that he has any respect at all for the hadiths again just to be clear he does believe you can get some details about muhammad's life from them but that's by applying western academic standards and using some very interesting methodologies to attempt to get anything of value from them then we have consummation now doesn't mean had sex with kenny kenny kenny quoted maryon wefster's dictionary uh here's maryon wefster's dictionary consummate to make marital union complete bisexual intercourse guess what that means the same thing in islam you know why because we're not as familiar with we're not as familiar with this anymore but back then marriage was a process right you had the proposal then the then the betrothal period and then there was the consummation that's when the two become one flesh where they actually have sex that it's consummation because that's the final step right kenny no no no that just means that even though they were they they were already married so notice they're already married at six or seven and then there's this consummation ah that's when they can start kissing seriously that's how desperate we are that's how desperate we are now uh on this issue consummate no longer means consummate now consummate means move in with maybe do a little kissing well what's then what's the what's the other stage what's the what's the future stage so very very strange um now once again all these sources which talk about consummating marriage uh don't refer don't have anything to do with having sex once again i have to wonder what why would this be a problem so now is sura 65 for also not talking about having sex with a prepubescent girl when the entire reason for the hadith for the hadith was to establish a waiting period after a divorce after a man has had sex with with a girl before another guy could come along and marry her and have sex with her maybe none of this is having sex maybe there just is no sex i mean we're just i don't know what to do um so consummation doesn't mean had sex with and then he gives examples and is asking why uh we don't call these other people pedophiles isaac mary rebecca have you noticed have you noticed how much they toss this around rebecca is called a young woman over and over and over again and if she was three years old when she was uh hauling hundreds of gallons of water for those camels she's basically a superhero that's that's how desperate they are uh and then he brings up of course the age of mary mary is called a woman in the bible in the same bible that calls 12 year olds little girls she's called a woman we have no authoritative source on the age of mary do you see that look when we're talking about muhammad's relationship with aisha there are dozens and dozens of sources that i have right now that i can quote you if you factor in the arabic you're dealing with hundreds of sources of their most authoritative sources and you're comparing this where no age at all is listed 30 seconds left young woman or or women and they will look at that and say see why aren't you calling them a pedophile i'll say it here folks if isaac had sex with a three-year-old i would in a heartbeat call him a pedophile in a heartbeat in a heartbeat so problem is for kenny there's no evidence we've got a ton of evidence on muhammad and time we'll kick it over to kenny for his six-minute rebuttal as well Kenny the floor is all yours i would like to thank david wood for once again proving my argument for me david wood has mentioned dr joshua little again and i remind you that dr joshua's little dissertation was specifically on the aisha marital hadith so the hadith when he's talking about those hadith in that article and in his work in his in his dissertation he's talking specifically about those marital hadith that are questionable and yes garbage right and so i have no problem saying that uh because in fact that they are garbage so so again david wood is being deceptive he's being dishonest with you you can read the information yourself go find the article read it yourself he's talking specifically that's why it's called his one article is titled why i study the aisha hadith his dissertation is on the aisha hadith not all hadith in general it is known it's a known fact the muslims themselves know that there was sahib i sahib bhakari by example had to go through 600 000 different hadith most of which they tossed out and threw away because they were garbage because as you will see that there was political strife amongst the muslims they were writing against one another it was a political game so they're trying to bolster the image of aisha against shiites and the shiites are trying to counter that with their own hadith back and forth back and forth just like david wood who's admitted to he's proven my case for me about the reasonable doubts a innocent i mean a decent person with intellectual honesty you do not accuse someone of wrongdoing when the evidence against them is debatable if means in any other muslim is sitting up here and he takes one side of the argument and i take another side of the argument it's because of an ongoing for centuries long debate amongst the muslims themselves i mentioned that hanbali and and all the the four schools of thought the primary four schools of thought in islam they all reject the hadith by hisham eban urwa the four callas rejected the hadith by hisham eban urwa they state that you know these hadith weren't reliable and so thank you david wood for proving my case in regards to surah 65 for surah al talak regarding divorce who gets who gets divorced in this world do children get divorced men and women get divorced these so in the hadith in the in the in the in this verse rather in the surah it says urib layman she turned the regime it says if you're in doubt the waiting the period of waiting will be three months for those women who have ceased menstruating and those women and for those who have not menstruated the waiting period of those who are pregnant will be until they deliver their burden and a lot makes things easy for those who are mindful of him but what does it say in the arabic the words in the arabic it says for those who are in for those who right so it's referring to if you are in doubt the waiting period will be three months for menisa ikam menna menisa ikam what does that mean it means women and when it says for those women for for those women the arabic word there is for those women these the arabic it says nothing about children says nothing about little girls it says why for those women in particular it's talking about the whole surah surah al talak right is about divorced women in particular how do you engage in and so forth with with divorced women so the verses addressing women that one one intends to divorce who's already been divorced who has had sexual relations already in a previous marriage is also giving guidance to help ensure that there's no confusion about who the father is for the child and so forth in the event that the that the divorced woman is pregnant it's also addressing mature women who are past the age of menopause and mature women who have not yet menstruated for whatever reason so when it says why for those women who have not yet menstruated for for whatever reason it's not talking about little girls if it meant little girls it would say specifically little girl little child little baby in a diaper it's not saying that it's saying why for those what those women again the word the initial word used is mena menisa ikam for the women nisa ikam the word nisa is women nothing to do with children nothing to do with little girls okay so uh so yeah so um again in in regards to the arabic terminology consult quran.com according to a narrative reported by akhmad even at hanbal after the death of prophet prophet Muhammad's wife kadija um um well i'm not going to get in that because it's too long of a point to address but nevertheless nevertheless so what's transpired here is that david wood is again proving my argument in both the first debate and this debate by by by himself admitting that there's there is disagreement amongst the muslims there's disagreement amongst the muslims themselves i said this from the very beginning and i've used non-muslim sources along the way because they have no dog in the fight they're just giving their honest opinion based on what they found or what they've studied in depth. Dr. Joshua Little has done in-depth scholarly research on the isnad kamatan analysis in depth and he is a non-muslim with no dog in the fight has no reason to lie and he's specifically addressing in his dissertation in his dissertation to get his doctorate he wrote specifically about the hadith regarding this marriage to aisha in particular all the hadith could come from the original primary source hissham ibn urwa after he relocated to iraq and those of his students who also embellished upon those hadith and then fabricated their own hadith in support of what was stated thank you thank you very much for that kenny we will jump into the open dialogue this will be 25 minutes then we'll have four minute closings and qna afterward gentlemen the floor is all yours yeah uh kenny oops sorry kenny uh i'm still really confused by your appeal to uh joshua little i'll just read a little section here i already read a large section where it goes through uh multiple reasons why he doesn't trust had he's talking about hadith in general and then he says these general conclusions are primarily primarily the result of and he gives a bunch of other western academic hadith scholars and he says for all of these reasons and indeed for any one of them skepticism obtains any given mountain was likely created long after the relevant relevant events and or distorted in the course of transmission and any given is not was likely created long after anyone could remember the actual transmission history of the matin in question there was a quite a range of specific mechanisms or processes involved in the creation and alteration of hadith which are often attested in traditional islamic scholarship the matins of hadith were variously and he gives a long list crafted by oral storytellers and preachers who valued notice it's preachers not talking about one guy ish m oral storytellers and preachers who valued education education entertainment above all else from a common stock of material so it should not be a surprise right i know this article david so i can't tell you do so hang on i just wanted to get the final go ahead but you taking a lot of time i'll skip to the end i'll skip to the end yeah i'll skip to the end he says the relative weight of these various processes or mechanisms is still up for debate but the general falsity of the general falsity of hadith entails that some combination there of or something like them must have been a play in the must have been at play in the formation of the extant corpus during the eighth and ninth centuries says regardless skepticism obtains regarding hadith as it stands okay any given hadith sahi or otherwise should be presumed to be inauthentic or unreliable until the contrary can be demonstrated a lot more thank you thank you thank you for proving my case you prove you went on for quite a while there you have proved my case with the very article that i mentioned a lot whack bar because those what he's talking about again his dissertation and this article that he's reading is that article titled why i studied the asia marital hadith is that what you're reading there david this is his 500 page oxford doctoral and i've got that right i've got that right here okay so exactly so along along with that he's not even talking about those hadiths yet this is on his general methodology chapter right so general methodology chapter so based on my argument based on my argument where we're arguing whether or not this marriage was ethical and my argument was at the very beginning do you accuse someone of wrongdoing when the evidence against them is debatable and when people are arguing and debating with one another and they're writing against one another it's it's the scholars know about this david this is not like some big surprise you're saying this is though that you know the muslims themselves don't know that there was 600 000 hadith that uh that uh sahib abukari had to go through and 500 000 that sahib muslim had to go through and they only chose a small number to add to their collections right and so that means that the hadith were in question that doesn't mean that all the hadith are in question dr joshu little is specifically find the articles yourselves find the article find his dissertation yourself and you'll see that it even if even if he was talking about all hadith which he was not he's talking about specific hadith when he's using same general and he's mentioned sahib muslim and he signed and sahib abukari he's talking in reference to the aisha marital hadith that are in question today that's what iraq wrote his doctorate on so let me summarize with this david that so you have proven my case you've literally fallen on your face and proven my case a lot what just like i knew that it would happen i knew it would happen that way i knew it would happen yeah let me go and respond to that you proven my case again there is no way no way you read this dissertation unless you're you know you're lying about this because there you you cannot go a page in this dissertation without without seeing especially in the in the methodology section that he thinks these things were made up long after in fact the methodology the methodology in his discussion of methodology that that western academic hadith scholars use is is virtually the opposite in many ways in one second i just want to explain the methodology that the methodology that that western academic hadith scholars use is the opposite in the relevant ways of the muslim methodology in other words when a muslim hadith scholar looks at an snot he says oh look at this perfect snot this shows that this is this this is this is this works in favor of hadith when a western academic hadith scholar looks at that same snot if he sees a perfect snot he said this is clearly identified this is clearly made up this is clearly made up because the methodology didn't exist in the first century of islam so they made it up later a muslim hadith scholar looks at a broken okay i'm just telling you what he said which is broken is not let's just let me get this part hurt western a muslim hadith scholar looks at a broken snot and says oh we can't trust that a western academic hadith scholar looks at a broken snot and says well that that's a good sign that it came before the development of the methodology so that's actually probably earlier they come to the opposite conclusions all right let me go ahead let me chime in here david before you try to take over the whole session here okay so now note this malik ibn nas one of isham ibn urwa's own students rejected the hadith from isham ibn urwa and those of all of his students malik ibn nas an early scholar of of hadith who lived and walked with isham ibn urwa who knew him personally was his students rejected the hadith in question that we're talking about today hold on hold on hold on do you mean he didn't quote it or said it's false hold on quote it or you said it's false i do want to just i do i'll give you a chance david i do want to just hear more from kenny so so malik ibn nas the student of isham ibn urwa one of his students right rejected those hadith that we're talking about and those of all the other students that saying that they're unreliable many others have stated that they're unreliable david wood has proven my case now in regards to dr joshua little saying criticizing the hadith remember i'm the one that said that there was 600 000 hadith the imam bukhari went through he only chose i think 6000 uh if i remember correctly uh imam sahib muslim chose even less than that but hold on hold on don't chime in yet you went on for about seven or eight minutes now now dr joshua little mentions that in in his dissertation in his articles in his general consensus about the hadith meaning that yes there was multiple hadith multiple hadith within those 600 000 500 000 collections that they had to look through that weren't there there were there were garbage they were unreliable they tossed them out they're they're unreliable then there's others that was given no no no notice for one hadith didn't become start being being uh uh labeled for one being graded until the ninth century this is long after these hadith originally began uh being collected they began being collected in the eighth century they were given grades in the ninth century and in that grading period they named they they uh they had some that were reliable being um sahib they had some that were hasan which are questionable which means some some of the hadith and question and i'll summarize won't take much more time but some of the hadith and question by example in the ishnad in the chain of narration they had uh some of the hadith by hisham ibn urwah and some of his students that had a a broken link in the chain meaning that some of the hadith didn't have the name name mentioned and in the other hadith that had a particular name mentioned that person mentioned in that chain was unreliable that makes that sahih that the hadith unreliable within itself that's why they tossed out many of those hadith and so the hadith in question again dr joshua little was writing specifically and did he give a consensus about all hadith as i have done myself here today you haven't scored any points with that i'm the one that brought up 600 000 hadith at most of which was was tossed out you didn't score any points with that david wood all right let me go and respond because kenny i mean you know i've said i'm willing to go down this road with you i'm willing to agree we'll put your boots on coward i'm willing i'm willing to agree so if you're going to say well let's let's let's go through what you just said again so for anyone who's new to this bukhari depending on your source has is said to have gone through 300 to 600 000 hadiths to get to the most the absolute most reliable which are recorded in sahih al bukhari these are considered the best of the best over and over and over again in sahih al bukhari we read about aisha being six when mohammed married her and nine when the marriage was consummated then you have all the details about her dolls and so on playing on a swing you have all those stories right so notice bukhari went through literally hundreds of thousands that he thought were were not good enough to be included and then he gets to the best of the best and now we're finding out from kenny that the even this and keep in mind this is considered the greatest he's considered the best of the best right so the best we aren't talking about all hadith in his collection we're not no no this is what you see what he's doing you see what he's doing we're not talking about all the hadith in sahih bukhari's collection i didn't say that we're not talking about that but but but but let me say let me say something just real quick let me say something okay then i want to remind you uh i'll remind you my battery is running low there but i remind you i wanted to read the quote that i mentioned earlier in regards to i'll just summarize in regards from the islam institute of islamic jurisprudence that says that um that uh when a weakness a weakness in the chain of narration could have appeared as it progresses past a particular imam right and so even those that are that were perceived as being sahih or reliable in a particular at a particular period of time could have been deemed as unreliable later on as more more in-depth scholarly research of those particular hadith come into play and that's what's happened with the with the uh scholarly methodology of of dr. joshua little and others who have determined that through the uh it's not kamatan analysis that when you start analyzing these hadith and putting things together that things things start don't start adding they're not adding up regarding these particular hadith in question the aisha marital hadith right so therefore based on the institute of islamic jurisprudence you can reject those hadith you reject those hadith even if an earlier imam accepted it some of them did we we know that we realize that but as more progressive scholarship comes about with the advent of modern technology as i mentioned earlier then you can look at all the evidence and say okay now that we've we've studied this even in more in depth we can reject that now let me remind you the sahih bukhari and sahih muslim and the collectors of the hadith were just that they were the collectors of the hadith they didn't have time while going around and looking through 600 000 hadiths and trying to analyze these you know all that they didn't have time to break down and and go into great detail about about the change of narration and so the modern scholarship has given us the the ability to do that just like modern scholarship with any other field that you would you would look into sometimes the modern a modern look at at something from the past gives a more clear understanding of what's going on with it and the fact of the matter is that the hadith in question we should not accuse the prophet peace be upon him unjustly based on what he's agreeing that the hadith in question are unreliable thank you david wood you proved my case all right yeah and so you basically got two methodologies here got what's what's considered orthodox islamic methodology as far as hadith criticism if you if you use that methodology kenny's pointing out yes you you there are various reasons for dismissing specific hadith the hadith about aisha that's everywhere you can't just say oh i found a weakness in one great there are dozens and dozens they all come from the same so hold on let's clarify something the hadith that we're talking about all the marital hadith as you'll see in dr dr little's word and the works of other scholars as well not just not just a non-muslim scholar others have said this is the same thing that all of these hadith come from the people of iraq after after he shan eban urwa moved to iraq that's when he started bolstering the image of aisha against shia detractors over there the party of ali he was writing to uplift the status in image of aisha amongst that party and so did his students he started conveying this information and his students embellished upon it took some of those hadith embellished on it twisted some words and invented their own hadith so they all come from the original primary source being hisham eban urwa and all of those hadith coming from that region of iraq unreliable toss them out all right so uh notice kenny's kenny's claiming that all of this comes from one guy in iraq so this is uh i didn't say that i said hisham eban urwa and all of his students yeah yeah so like you always do you're twisting and turning the words it comes from him if it's him and his students he's the original primary source yeah so it all comes from him thank you that's all right that's all right but i didn't say he's the only one that we're only we're only talking about hadith from hisham eban urwa i never said that never made that claim we're talking about hisham eban urwa and the hadith of all of his students yes you're saying it all came from him okay so it was so this is uh this is again from islam qa this is a little muslim scholar side it was narrated from aisha via a number of isnaads not by only one isna all some as let me finish all let me finish the quote why don't you go ahead it's all from the same source i just mentioned by one not by one is not only as some ignorant people claim i know you're not saying there's one i didn't say that let me finish okay the most he says the most well known chain of narration is that of hisham eban urwa eban al-zubair from his father urwa eban al-zubair from aisha this is one of the soundest narrations as urwa eban al-zubair is one of the most well acquainted people of people with aisha because she was his maternal aunt it was also narrated by another chain by azuri from urwa so i ended now hold on now let me hold on let me finish this short quotation go ahead please do okay it was narrated by another chain by azuri from urwa eban al-zubair from aisha narrated by both of them so it's from urwa it's from hisham's father but by a separate by a separate narrator it was also narrated by another chain by al-amash okay hold on ibrahim from al-aswad from aisha so a separate narrator from aisha it was also no hold on that's enough that's enough hold on you made a false you made a false claim no i did not hold on let's clarify what you're saying let's this is the last this is the last one this is the last one it's one sentence it was also narrated via another chain from muhammad ibn amr from muhammad ibn amr from atin from aisha multiple narrations from aisha okay hold on hold on this is david wood's story time here so what we have here is these hadith from hisham eban urwa the problem with it is and you'll find it in other hadith and other from other scholars that they say that when he when he was giving these hadith that sometimes he he gave a contradictory stories about these hadith and and this is one of the many reasons why these hadith are rejected why he was considered unreliable and untrustworthy and fabricated some of the hadith and deemed deemed unreliable because the fabrication was going on so it's that's a fact so what you're saying is in in support of my case thank you very much because what what now he's trying to what he's trying to do is trying to use the saying it came from aisha and came from this and came from that wait a minute wait a minute uh hisham eban urwa is the one that said that that happened right and again the scott hold on hold on hold on wrong no hisham it they're narrated they're separate it's not that do not include hisham it was there exactly some don't some don't include him some don't include his father some don't include his father and therefore that proves my point it proves it proves my point so if they include hisham uh he fabricated if they don't include hisham no the ones that don't include it the ones that don't include hisham obviously are coming from his students but the ones that are not they're completely different nods not through his students so now you're displaying your ignorance on the matter every single every single one listen closely no they listen closely no they every single one of the no they don't hold on hold on let me finish what i'm saying you can say every single one of the age of aisha marital hadith all come from iraq they all yes they don't yes you can say listen listen read read read read the read the evidence read what the scholars say and they all say that these hadith came from the people of iraq meaning hisham eban urwa after he relocated to iraq and those of his students from iraq so yes there's multiple multiple they come from multiple sources no one's disputing that not a person i've never disputed that but i am telling you for a fact that all of these hadith come from the original primary source hisham eban urwa and those of his students after he relocated to iraq that's what all of the scholars say all right so um let me read this real quick shake uh shake abu ishak al hawani compiled the names of those who followed iraq eban al zubair namely then he gives a list of the names he also compiled the names of those who followed hisham eban urwa in narrating this hadith they were eban uh shahab al-zuri uh and abu abu hamza amemun he gives a he gives the names then he then he named those who narrated it from hishan eban urwa among the scholars of madina so there were scholars among madina who narrated this he gives a list among the people of mecca it was narrated by sufyan eban unayna it was also narrated by and he gives a list of names from other people among the people of basra it was narrated by him what are you reading that from what is that what is that islam q and a islam q and a islam so so what you'll find hold on well listen to josh as long as we don't understand anything josh will little is saying no what you'll find in islamic scholars what you'll find is then you can't do it what you'll find and once again dr josh a little with no dog in the fight now now let's clarify something let's let's clarify something the muslims debate amongst amongst themselves about this issue all right so that proves my point that the the issue is debatable that's right you can't you can't accuse the prophet when the the if the the the the charges against them are debatable the muslims debate about themselves if so some so some side hold on hold on some muslims right we can't leave some some muslims right in defense of the idea that she was nine years old and so forth some muslims some muslims say she some muslims some muslims right on the contrary saying no she had to be anywhere from nine she could have been as old as 21 in some of some of these works right so therefore the evidence is debatable so you don't accuse someone of of impropriety and wrongdoing when the evidence is clearly debatable he's proving my case thank you but and so depending on what site you go to and who's writing where the article came from some are going to be writing in defense that she was nine years old some are going to say oh no there's no what possible way that she could have been nine years old all this proves my point all this proves my case you don't charge someone with a crime and convict them and send them to the guillotine or put them in the chair because when when when the evidence is debatable that's why you look at all the evidence just like i mentioned when someone you get multiple people addressing forensics in a courtroom and they're all saying oh there's no way it could have been this person had to be that person or whatever they're breaking down dna and they get different conclusions or whatever it works they're looking at forensic you know whatever the issue is you look at the conflicting views of those experts and say uh that one's saying this and that one's saying that and all right i'm sitting i'm sitting in the jury and there's no possible way i can't i have to say so they're they're innocent because i can't prove it beyond a reasonable doubt again they're over they're over 200 they're over 200 sources on this so that's like having a 200 witnesses in your case and there's 300 you just you just reject them all okay give me give me the 300 give the 200 you just mentioned give me give 20 of them i bet you can't do it kenny kenny what i bet you can't do it no give the 200 where's the 200 no no i can't go ahead i give i give you i give you a couple questions right now let me give 20 how many can you give that for every 20 that you can give i'll counter it with with how many references can you give me there she was 21 uh two what are they uh oh you'll have to go to my other notes but okay well i mean do you have everything remember i don't have anything to memorize uh kenny let me give you a little analogy here so so here we are we're all in a room here suppose that james had some concern over security suppose there was a threat let's stick to the topic and i know this this this is the topic this is the topic i'm exactly on top nothing james has anything to do with come on let let me finish my example so suppose james was concerned about security and so suppose he had everyone go through a metal detector walking in there and there's a pat down we all got wanded and they're really they're really checking everyone to make sure there are no dangers suppose we're having this discussion all of a sudden so what does this have to do with this marriage you know let me finish it's very easy yeah my goodness who you yelling at so hang on if we talk if we're sitting if we're sitting in here and we've all been searched and we've all been through a metal detector all of a sudden Kenny let me finish man come on it it's a simple point if all of a sudden someone pulls out an ak-47 and you say oh okay this guy's got an ak-47 we need to we need to get him out of here what does this have to do with this marriage it tells you the entire methodology of searching people is screwed up and defective and for all we know every last person might have an ak-47 and a bomb because the method is defective so when your greatest hadith scholars say hey there are hundreds of thousands of stories we know most of them are made up and they come up with a methodology how do we actually get to true stories and then they come up with the best of the best this is the best of the best by the guy who was the best of the best kenny thinks this guy didn't know what how does how to discern a true story from a false story because this is filled with false stories not according to me according to Kenny and therefore this is filled with false stories how do you believe any of it that's what joshua little concluded the entire methodology is a joke hadith criticism according to joshua little from an islamic person i mean the islamic version remember what i said earlier okay let me tell you know he's been around okay so naturally this is an orthodox muslim claiming that the sources are garbage and that the best of the best is nonsense the sources are garbage regarding the marital report about it's not what joshua little said that's what he said that is what he's saying so naturally according to the institute you know you're on record right you know you're on record absolutely and i stand by every word that i've spoken so in regards to the principles of of analyzing hadith uh david wood is not one of these people who analyze hadith he's the one who gives his own interpretation but what do they say naturally islamo no dr joshua little rather he says naturally islamophobes will assert that the muslim acceptance of the authenticity of this hadith causes child marriage therefore by criticizing the muslims for acceptance of the hadith islamophobes claiming they're making a world a better place but he says if however the true intention or impulse of the islamophob is simply to lash out at muslims then this makes more sense no matter what position the muslim takes islamophobes is fine from some pretext to attack them and this is true for most bigots and their sided rationales invariably turn out to be pretext and their real motivation is a deep seething resentment hatred and discomfort towards the given target group now regarding the principles of hadith i hate to interrupt but just to stay on track especially because we have a short q and a and then we do we are running a little bit late this is actually a time where we'd run into the closing statements okay can i can i in just one last thing really take about do i get into like 15 seconds and then we got how authentic is a sahih hadith imam ibn al-sala the renowned hadith expert states is in mukadima that just because a hadith is given the status of being sahih does not necessitate necessitate that it's undeniable sahih or reliable however there remains a possibility that even a sahih hadith considers hadith considered a sahih may not actually be as such since the reliable reliable narrator can also make a mistake we do have to move forward i'll just end with this last sentence no no hold on those but that was okay we got to jump into the next this one is four minute closing from david and then we'll have a four minute closing from kenny david the floor is all yours all right well putting all of this together as i said my opening statement there are two options before us either islam's most trusted sources are generally reliable because they did come up with a really good methodology or they aren't if islam's most trusted sources are generally reliable if they had a good methodology then muhammad definitely had sex with a nine-year-old girl because yes you can say ah just because one thing is labeled sahih that doesn't mean it's uh it's there could be other reasons for doubting it true when you have dozens and dozens of them spread across islam's most trusted sources that meet the requirements of various hadith scholars and and the syrah and the syrah scholars and so on and to the point where ibn kathir considered by many to be the the one of the greatest muslim scholars of all time says that no one disputes this and kenny's go oh it's dispute it's a matter of dispute it's a it's a yeah it's a matter of dispute among muslims who are embarrassed by this um but yeah so if either they're generally reliable if they are then i mean this is as good as gold you rarely find anything in islam that you have this much evidence for so if this isn't good enough then great because we have the other alternative which is that even their best scholars and their best sources are unreliable they're unreliable that a person could just make something up and it would be spread by it would spread to dozens even hundreds of sources so if if these are generally reliable then you got a problem because your prophet suffered from what's what would now be called non-exclusive pedophilic disorder not a good moral example um or we just don't know much about Muhammad we can't trust the best of the best and that means we don't know much about Muhammad and we don't know much about the Quran because much of the Quran can't even be understood without appealing to the historical background found in other sources so if we can't trust the sources we we wow we don't even understand the Quran we don't even know much about the formation of the Quran and so on so what do we what do we really have here we have modern muslims appealing to academics who again read read read just start off his first chapter is on general methodology he doesn't even get into the issue he doesn't even get in he doesn't even start going through them this is general methodology and just to quote it once again he says regardless skepticism obtains regarding hadith capital h that means the entire corpus skepticism obtains regarding hadith as it stands any given hadith sahi or otherwise should be presumed to be inauthentic or unreliable until the contrary can be demonstrated he's saying these these are fraught with so many problems and he goes through a bunch of them over and over and over again these sources are so filled with problems with fabrication interpolation and so on we have to presume these sources guilty until proven innocent if you want to make a case for any specific hadith you have to make a specific case for that hadith you can't just say well it's it's it's sahi he rejects that so kenny uh you're clear i have to say you're you're clearly bothered by what your sources say about Muhammad's marriage to aisha if you're so bothered by it that you're willing to throw out your greatest historians and your greatest scholars if you're willing to throw them under the bus if it bothers you that much there's an easier way there's an easier way out of this you can just reject Islam if you're rejecting all the sources and and you and they can't come up with a reliable way of doing things then just leave Islam it's that simple your sources don't work your sources don't work then i would uh close with the advice of my friend the apostate prophet stay away from Islam we'll kick it over to kenny for a four minute closing as well kenny the floor is all yours all right thank you so imam imam ibn al-salah the renowned hadith expert states in his mukadima that just because the hadith is given the status of being sahi meaning reliable it does not necessitate that an actual fact it is undeniably sahi or reliable it really means that from a technical aspect in terms of collecting the hadith the sahi is high the hadith is sahi and therefore will most likely be sahi in actual terms as well but he says however there remains the possibility that even a hadith considered a sahi may not actually be as such that since a reliable narrator such as he shan ibn urwah can also make a mistake or they may be outright lying or have a sloppiness and a chain of transmission but they say but the possibility is not given any credit unless there are indications and strong proofs elsewhere such as the hadith opposing clear chronic verse or the more authentic hadith suggesting that a mistake may have been made by narrator of that sahi hadith and if such strong proofs are found it's perfectly acceptable not to act upon or accept that sahi hadith so in the previous debate i mentioned works by numerous scholars muslim and non muslim alike who all upon different ages for our asia potential ages from yes nine to his oldest twenty one they all had different ages for her and again i didn't come up with those numbers the scholars and historians did also mentioned that so the hadith and question did come from he shan ibn urwah as the original primary source as well as those from of his students that were all from the region of iraq the oshafi school of thought and also i mentioned that even if if if aisha was nine years old what does the word a consummation and cohabitation mean so meaning does a by example in christianity when the preacher says i'm now pronouncing man and wife is the is the marriage ethical and valid even before sex has taken place the prophet himself peace be upon him he had two wives that he lived together with and cohabitant with and ethical marriages and they never had sex is it at all possible in the minds of people out there who have made their minds up it at all possible that the prophet peace be upon him this is not a reach this is just using basic logic and reason and simple decency being honest within yourself is it at all possible that the prophet could have cohabited with aisha and a quote unquote consummated and valid and ethical marriage and waited until she was actually physically and mentally and emotionally capable of engaging in sexual activity well sure he could deals are consummated no sex is required merit the prophet lived with other wives that he never had sexual relations with those those marriages were considered consummated in his own words that upon cohabitation with these wives and i see the bicker the little snickers up in the front but upon cohabitation with these wives that these scholars were i mean these wives were in ethical marriages with the prophet and cohabiting with them in consummated marriages without sex the word consummation does not only mean sexual intercourse look it up it means binding establishing forging creating coming to an agreement one example was the company consummated its deal to buy a smaller firm so the deal is consummated it's established it's put in place could he have not lived with a nine-year-old aisha if in fact she was nine years old even though the evidence is quite to the contrary um could he have done that and it be deemed ethical cohabiting with her and a quote-unquote religiously valid and ethical marriage consummated marriage based on the very definition of the word itself and the definition of the word in the arabic banabiha which means to build establish or begin has nothing to do with sexual intercourse that's why none of the hadith and questions say the prophet had sex with me when i was nine years old none of them say that thank you very much kenny for that closing statement we'll head into the qna if you have questions folks please come on up this aisle way we're ready for the first one yes same rules as last time please just state your question do not make it a statement of life thank you david and kenny this is a question for for kenny but both can respond um so um kenny you were saying something along the lines that uh we shouldn't uh if there's debate on something we shouldn't accuse uh uh that person of or something of big faults but um why don't we it seems like a double standard how why don't we apply this when it comes to uh textual criticism in a christian scholarship because in order for it to slam to be true christianity has to be corrupted so why don't we see that that same uh generosity when it comes to uh you know to be charitable to the conservative christian scholarship thank you very much for your question so to answer your question so the bible by example is words according to man written the bible's words according to man none of them say that that it came from directly from the creator it's it's the math you know book of matthew margillian john according to these anonymous authors and so forth um and so as muslims we you know we accept those things within the bible that are consistent with the true monotheistic message of the quran meaning when jesus peace be upon them is recorded as saying if you if we believe that he said these and i believe this is something he would say hero israel our lord our god is is one repeating the words of moses and deuteronomy and so forth peace be upon be upon them both then we accept that as muslims so we reject those things that are inconsistent with the quran and accept those things that are consistent the same thing applies to the hadith and so uh we apply the same standards if it's if it's a hadith it seems questionable you know we shouldn't get involved in a group think mentality just because it's the popular thing to do we should be thinking independently say does that really make sense does it coincide with with the message of the message of islam and islam it is a requirement that the muslim does not oppress anyone right you're not supposed to oppress anyone people make mistakes but nevertheless you know in regards to women in particular um uh when a when a woman accepts marriage by example she has to be willing to to accept that husband and there has to be a you know a dowry paid and all that and so it's a um that's part of the requirement you can't just oppress someone and think that a man's going to get on top of a little girl uh an oppressor because that would be an absolute oppression and we wouldn't assume that a nine-year-old child is willing to engage in in a sexual intercourse with a grown man i just you know that's just doesn't seem feasible so when these hadith pop up and you think about that you say that doesn't that's not that's inconsistent with one the message of of islam period uh message to get the words of the prophet himself who uplifted the status of women if you study the history of the prophet peace be upon them and um bringing bringing the status of women up from being um sex slaves in in early arabia to becoming uh to where they can have their own property and have you know that's why they're given a dowry and they're giving given inheritance and the men is are respected are expected to pay for everything for their wives and so forth um it uplifts the status of women so to answer your question i know i went around the block with it a little bit but the point being that um when we see these things are inconsistent we have the right to reject them uh matter of fact the last sentence that i read it was so second ago if strong proofs are found it's perfectly acceptable not to act upon or accept that particular sahih hadith now that's the institute of islamic jurisprudence saying that that's not me saying that but my my common sense tells me that if this seems kind of odd and strange i just moved past it same thing with the things that i see in the bible that i disagree with i just moved past it you know and so uh um in in my mind we should have a balance there it should be uh um you know put things on equal scales and and be be honest about whatever whatever information we're looking at sure go questions true let me let me quick comment uh really because he did he did he did he did say well it was good response i just want to say um in spite of our other disagreements i do like kenny's sense of western individualism where he is not bound by what's in all of these sources and that he can freely just i don't like that and therefore i can uh i can i can toss all this out i actually like that all right uh hey kenny i wanted to say sorry because i said no over there the reason is he's trying to hey that was you hold on shame on you i know so i was trying to say that you know like the isham yes he's from urat like when he's narrating but he was giving you the from mecca and also madina but anyway that's not my question just want to say sorry um so you said a couple of things uh while you were talking you said uh uh 65 for it says min nisa akum right that from your woman if you go to 49 it gives the it says and recall when we saved you uh from the people of fora who afflicted you with the worst arm is slaughtering your newborn sons and keeping your females alive and in that there was a great trial from your lord right so actually uh the keeping your females alive also you were the nisa akum like the same nisa is used um and uh it gives the exodus 15 um uh i mean one uh 15 16 where the the the fora is killing the babies of the israel israelites right uh keeping the daughters alive so and i can i can give you more uh 249 4127 7141 146 so anyway so okay sorry guys sorry just wanted to so you said you said in the hadis right uh uh uh bana biha that means uh uh consummate that it just means like the contracted right that's what you said right means to build to establish the same thing same thing you find in the biblical right it means entered into her it means into her uh sunan nisa uh sunan nisa 33 78 it's actually the what uses the word the hada which actually means the synonym word that means entered on her and then another one sahib bukhari okay okay the question is why are you lying why am i lying so that's that's pretty rude but to say the least i'm not really i haven't lied about anything but to change my to address your point so uh yes so bana biha means to establish with her no problem with that do husbands and wives establish homes together all the time bana biha why so to build and establish with her so he established a if if if in fact she was nine years old again the the evidence is contrary but bana biha to establish with her the word by it's the same in the in the biblical hebrew hebrew is a sister language of the arabic and you can look it up yourself and you'll find that it means to build to establish to begin or forge in the biblical hebrew so it's the same word and and so bana biha he established at home with her if in fact she was nine years old note that some of the hadith are translated in the hadith in english as consummated sometimes and as i mentioned in the two hadith that he brought up in his recent video that i discussed earlier they used the word cohabitation because these words are synonymous with one another they're semantically the same and they mean the same thing basically you establish an inner to home and i mentioned about five or six different sources scholarly sources early some sources that said the word bana biha means to build and establish and to begin and establish a home with the with the bride with aisha i think next question now david do you agree with kenny on sewer 654 um no uh so uh i i may have missed something and sounded it sounded like he you were saying that this applies to women um and that the verses are is applying to women that's that's actually the problem not the solution that everyone is lumped everyone is lumped together in fact uh i i had in bukhari so right before right before bukhari right before bukhari gives his chapter heading giving one's young children in marriage is permissible by virtue of the statement of Allah and he quotes surah 65 verse 4 and then he quotes muhammad as an example of someone who had sex with a previous and girl the chapter heading right before it was the hadith i quoted uh before i quoted that one which is um about muhammad having a dream about aisha and then uncovering her in the dream and the chapter heading there is it is permissible to look at a woman at a woman before marrying her so it's calling and she's a six-year-old at that time and it's calling her a woman she's a six-year-old it's calling her a woman but as far as the understanding of surah 65 4 this is this is what i what i meant by uh saying that you know i can respect kenny going against the grain on some things because uh as far as the the historical back the historical background of the verse is muhammad what about girls who are too young to have a monthly menstrual cycle what about girls who haven't reached puberty what about them that's the that's the uh that's the historical background according to ibn kathir al-wahdi and azbab al-nazul that's uh what al-razi said ibn kathir says that so and then if you look at the relevant phrase the relevant phrase in question um that those who those who haven't reached uh reached menstruation you can you can just go down the list of muslim commentators again ibn abbas says it refers to those who do not have menstruation because they are too young khattada ibn yana says it refers to those who have not yet menstruated al-sudi says it refers to young girls tabiri says it refers to girls who do not menstruate because they are too young bukhari says i know i'll take a couple seconds bukhari says it refers to refers to girls before puberty muqattu says it refers to young girls who did not menstruate yet ibn kathir we've read the two jalal zamakshari says it refers to the young ones al-tabirasi says it refers to those who didn't reach puberty yet court to be says it refers to the young there are only two possibilities here ladies and gentlemen either two either this verse is about having sex with prepubescent girls or it's so hopelessly unclear and so terribly worded that every great muslim scholar for 14 centuries concluded that it's talking about sex with prepubescent girls all right practically speaking let me those are those are equally as bad let me respond okay you can but then i get to respond to everyone who asks you a question okay so so so when he says that every single muslim scholar agrees that with what he said no they don't you just said that i said every great scholar let me let me keep you said every great scholar every great scholar says that it means what you just said and i and i read other scholars about 65 for in particular who said something different therefore it proves my case so if one scholar this group of scholars are saying this that's group of scholars are saying that it proves my case but the reality of it is the verses themselves the chapter itself is called divorce in english it's called divorce men and women get divorce the arabic words used in particular it says for those women menas men nisaikum women those women and wa lai and for those who it doesn't say the words little girl young child none of that is in those verses of the quran so what someone interprets of it is their opinion and there's other scholars who have a different opinion and the words wa lai simply means for those who it doesn't say for those little girls who those little children who it's wa lai for those women who men nisaikum wa lai so my question is for uh my question is for kenny and uh this this is i'm gonna use an analogy in my question but it's related to the quotations that were cited by both you and david in regards to the joshua little little article um so just by way of analogy in in hinduism there is a genre of scripture called purana the word purana in sanskrit means ancient means like a record of things that came before now if i in the field of religious studies were to write a paper and in the introduction of my paper i said generally speaking puranic literature is historically unreliable and then i go on to say now and the title of my paper is the historical unreliability of the pavishya puran specifically and but in my introduction i begin by saying generally speaking puranic literature is historically unreliable now let me talk about the pavishya puran and why i think it is specifically under historically unreliable what would you think i meant in my introduction yeah i'm not i'm not entirely sure i understand your question but i i would now during during my opening statement i i mentioned the principles of hadith acceptance and rejection uh from the institute of islamic jurisprudence and so so in summary so we'll apply this what you just mentioned if i understand the question right i'm not sure that i do but we'll apply that to what i believe your your question is addressing so in regards to so let's say we're now we're shifting we're using the same principles in regard in in islam so principle number four that i mentioned principle number four says asahi or reliable hadith may be considered da'if or unreliable in later times and so it says it's at times it's possible that an earlier scholar finds a particular hadith completely authentic when it reaches him through the sahaba meaning the earliest people the prophet the companions of the prophet and the tabi and the students of those companions and those succeeding them however they say the weakness in the chain of narration meaning the oral tradition the what's passed on from one group through generation through generation through generation to another that a weakness in the chain of narration could have appeared as it progresses past that imam or that particular group however you want to look at it but they say in such an instance it would be wrong to accuse the earlier imam of using a weak hadith and so going with what they knew at the time however they say if it was perceivably reliable sahih in his time but in unreliable later on they say therefore hadith which was regarded as da'if in imam bukhari's time by example was not necessarily as such so just because they they might have labeled it sahih but didn't necessarily mean that it was because they say for example was not necessarily such and and so what does that mean it means principle number five how authentic is a sahih adi it says imam ibn al-salah the renowned hadith expert said in his mukad imam his findings that just because a hadith is given the sahih the status of being sahih or reliable does not necessitate that in actual fact it is undeniably sahih or reliable it just means that in regards to collecting the hadith that it was reliable meaning at the at the time before the critical analysis was engaged that that's what they believed and that's what they passed on and it was an ongoing repeating the same stories over and over and over again and uh and so that's that's how it spread so i'll summarize with that i'm not sure if i totally understood your question but okay that's fine thank you all right salamu alaikum alaikum salam thank you for both for a very nice debate and i appreciate you coming here and everything else i have a i have a question um daniel daniel was here at the debate with mike he was defending the prophet Muhammad and he admitted he didn't have a problem with him marrying a nine-year-old and he was instead of sexting and instead of this i think he made it but he gave us the impression that a 50-year-old man marrying a nine-year-old girl is is the best thing that could have ever happened to that girl now from your perspective you're having a problem and you're saying no it's not true this is just a hadith we don't know if it's true you cannot accuse somebody who is holy or nice with an act like this so what my question to you mr kenny if it was true for argument's sake let's say it was true these hadiths were true would you still accept the prophet Muhammad as a prophet because even if he was a 54 year old man who committed this act who married a nine-year-old would you still if even if it was true let's say for argument's sake yeah would you still or you would or you would denounce him as a prophet no i wouldn't denounce him as a prophet but i've addressed that in the previous debate as well thank you for your question so i have no problem if in fact the prophet peace be upon him married aisha and and co-habitant with her as the hadith say uh in a valid and ethical consummated marriage and she was nine years old because as i mentioned he lived a co-habitant with other wives that he didn't have sex with um invalid consummated and ethical marriages and i don't believe that the prophet peace be upon him would have caused her any oppression because the the quran itself speaks against that it matter of fact it speaks about uh and once it's going to take too long to get into it but once we're addressing the um um um orphans and so forth about giving them their their justice and their rights and making sure that you don't don't steal from them anything and when they become of age and become sure enough and you give them what's due to them and so you would think that if the quran is mentioning the prophet of a law peace be upon him is revealing these verses from a law then you would assume that the prophet himself would not impede against that by oppressing a little girl by having sex with her before she was able to do so with that being said you know um i believe that the prophet it is possible i do believe that it's possible that the prophet um even though i do believe these hadith were were they're unreliable uh but i believe if it was possible like you mentioned and and it did occur that the prophet would not have oppressed her in any way that he would have waited until she was not only physically ready as we've seen that daniel gave a strong case about uh the early age of of uh girls menstruating and so forth and developing but also on top of that she would have had to been mentally and emotionally ready to engage in sexual activity and i believe the prophet of a law peace be upon him would have waited until she was ready for that and that's why i said let's say for the sake of argument that she was nine years old what are these words you know what's the word banabi had cohabitation using adi and or consummation uh using in the english what do these words mean it means that they're cohabiting with one another in a valid ethical marriage that is consummated that it's established it's big it's uh it's been put in place it's been put in place um my question is for mr david wood um although i do believe you've looked on a brilliant job at defending your position as well as simultaneously proving all of kenny's points as he stated i would like to ask um if we were to take kenny's position which i interpret it to be that um because the information that was presented in al-wujhadi and other hadith has been challenged that we should not accept it are there things aside from that that would lead us to believe that the marriage between asia and the prophet muhammad are unethical uh wait what was that what was that i'm sorry if i trailed off at the end are there other reasons to believe outside of the age if we took the position that he has that we should not come to a conclusion on which i believe that's what he was saying we should not come to a conclusion on the age of asia oh because the information again this this this makes somehow this makes kenny happy but yeah they're they're again two main possibilities here so um if you it's basically you did have a lot of false hadiths um circulating and so on and this became such a problem that they said we need to come up with a methodology to distinguish true hadiths from false hadiths and so the methodology that they came up with um was was this you know looking at the asnad and making sure that nothing violates the karan they they had a collection of but the the um the hadith scholars came up with their methods and then they put together what they considered the most reliable hadiths out of out of hundreds of thousands they came up with you know several thousand that they thought were were best and strongest so these are the sources that say over and over again spread spread throughout these that aisha was six or seven when the proposal was made and then nine when the marriage was consummated as far as the ethics whether Muhammad's marriage with aisha was ethical with we had all we've got to go on as these sources that's it so if these sources if these sources are what like something like josh will little what if if these sources are what josh will little thinks they are namely just piles piles of garbage that you have to really really struggle to root through to find anything of value and if these are being crafted in an atmosphere where people are just they feel free for any dispute to make up hadiths and then make up perfectly sound is nods and then to pass them around and then they mutate over time and they keep being embellished and so on if these are generally unreliable then it's not that we can say no Muhammad's marriage is fine we have no i we have no idea we just we just have no concept so in that sense so i would agree if if that for anyone who agrees with that idea namely that these sources are are unreliable flawed filled with fabrications interpolations and so on if someone agrees with that then i say you can't say that the marriage is ethical you just can't say anything about it we don't know this is all we have to go on so yeah it's either it's either a problem or we we we have no idea and that depends on the methodology and so it's it's general general Islamic methodology would accept the validity of these hadiths and so you'd have the problem but you can go to western academics who say we don't trust that stuff and you can use that to get out of it but you got again you got to pay the toll on that one okay yeah my question is for Kenny so you know in Islam Muhammad is you know the most revered person the most important person you know blessed by God and he's the example for all mankind going forward from his time into the future so why is it then that these devout Muslims are so comfortable making up so many stories about him that's that's a great question thank you very very much for that so in regards to the hadith the prophet himself peace be upon him he rejected writing down things about him other than the Qur'an there's hadith that mentioned this specifically and that matter of fact he said that anyone who writes anything about him other than the Qur'an should erase it because he knew this type of conflict would occur a lot more he's a prophet of Allah swt he has had wisdom enough to know that there would be problems amongst the Muslims themselves these hadith have caused great conflict amongst the Muslims it existed in the very beginning they began being being fabricated and spread because one group was writing against another and just like playing political games that's why Dr. Joshua lived on his findings and so forth and Muhammad Haikal many many years earlier said the same thing that they were writing in a for political reasons that one group was trying to outdo the other group and so they fabricated they basically did what human beings do people engage in politics people tell lies you know humans are humans it doesn't mean that the Muslims are infallible any more than the Christians are infallible and vice versa and so forth people are going to be people but the hadith in particular about the prophet Muhammad peace be upon him what he said in particular are the main hadith that Muslims should live and base their opinions on not the hadith that are associated with something that someone someone else said and so forth and it's it's what the prophet himself said and what how he lived by by his example that that's most important and so if you are involved in a group think mentality and you're a Muslim who just totally refutes the idea that Sahih hadith have any fallibility to them you need to do a whole lot of study and I mean no offense to my Muslim brothers matter of fact Eid Mubarak in saying that but if you're also if you're involved in a group think mentality and you're a non-Muslim who's determined that the prophet has done some type of wrongdoing just because it's popular thing to believe amongst the people that you associate with you're being intellectually dishonest you should read and do research for yourself and then draw your conclusion. One second I just wanted to add something since we agreed that there could be a response here here I actually agree with you and I just did I did want to point out Joshua Little's dissertation is filled with with brilliant analysis this is like cutting edge hadith studies and so on so I encourage people to read it lots of important information there but the relevant part of that question is something that should give rise to the issues you know concerning not just blindly accepting things that Kenny pointed out because the relevant part of that question was why did so many Muslims feel comfortable inventing stories and narrations and so on such that you had hundreds of thousands of them before even narrow it down to these and even these are contain problematic passages that according to Joshua Little very little of this probably goes back to Muhammad so it's if people are that comfortable just fabricating massive amounts of content notice the conclusion the conclusion is not pick what you like the conclusion is you can't you can't trust this stuff and so notice one more thing these are the same people that the early Muslim community these are the same people protecting the Quran. Kenny do you think that our court system should try to charge prosecute or convict people for crimes when they accused as willing to defend themselves or should they just not do that because the matter is up for debate no I think a reasonable person would look at all the evidence that's presented and then draw an honest conclusion from it so you don't if you're engaging confirmation bias and decide with the the information that coincides with what you already believe in your mind is made up it's always going to be made up but if you're willing to step outside of the box and have no dog in the fight and look at all the evidence presented even if it might be difficult for you to ponder and accept we should be willing to do that is honest and intellectual individuals who are you know are willing to look at the scales balanced and and make a judgment based on what you have determined what what you have you know but basically what he just said a second ago proved my case again that you know there's one one of two possibilities that either he's saying that either it did happen or we just don't know because the information is unreliable thank you you've proven my case for the third time today aloha it's so the point being is the marriage ethical how do you accuse someone when the information used against them is debatable and we're talking about specific hadith that are related to the marital age of aisha may Allah be pleased with her that came from his sham even urwa and his students primarily of the al shafi school of thought that originated in iraq thank you very much let's give a round of applause to our speakers thank you very much gentlemen it's been a true pleasure to have you