 Nice to meet you, Svetlana. Nice to meet you too. It's really a pleasure for me to talk with you for the mental health importance. Yes, it has become really relevant, hasn't it? Absolutely. So yeah, the first thing I thought, I don't know if you saw the questions I have for you. Yes, yes. Absolutely. Regarding the book that was published like two years ago, did you really imagine that it would become that famous now, like two years later? Yes. Well, it's interesting. I mean, obviously, just a second. Yeah. Thank you. I'm getting some technical advice here. Obviously, the book was written because it was already very important, mental wealth, mental health as a topic was already so important that I felt that as a society, the whole world was years behind, especially in workplaces as to what needs to happen. And I saw some very dangerous trends happening in the mental health field as well, which has to continue, which we will talk about later. So yes, when I wrote it, I knew it was timely. I didn't know this was going to happen. It was going to blow up and become so much more important, hasn't it? So yeah. So yes, this dissenting to madness happened a long time ago. We become weak as a society. In many senses, we have become narcissistic. We become all about meism. It's about me, me, me, how things impact me and how can you deal with my emotions, please? So it was timely. I saw the management that they didn't exactly know what to do with this new movement. They didn't exactly know how to handle people, how to prevent mental health problems. And sometimes they were either too extreme, they became too harsh with people, or they became too soft and coddle them and protect them too much. Both extremes are really, really bad for your mental health in the long term. So yeah, I'm glad we wrote it when we did. And it's been available since then for everybody to buy through Amazon and Demux and all that stuff. Are there more people now interested in the book, more leaders, managers, or do you have more requests for this kind of support in the organizations more than it was two years ago? Yes, yes. There's a lot of, we're getting more and more people interested, more views on our YouTube channel. We have a YouTube channel called the Mental Wealth TV and we give information there and we're seeing that grow exponentially lately. We're seeing people come to our websites, people buying the book. So obviously there's an interesting topic. People want to know how to take care of their mental health, how to make the workplace a happy place. They want to know how to interact with other people. The nice thing is that people are also very helpful. There's a lot of people that are very kind spirits, I call them, and they really want to help other people. Mental health is fine, but they understand, but I also want to help my colleagues. I want to help my manager. I want to help my daughter, my son. I want to help my husband or my wife or my father, my mother. So it's not just about me taking care of my mental health, but also about other people's mental health. And that's very kind and loving of them. So that's a very good thing. But also it makes sense, doesn't it? If you're a manager, you have certain responsibility to your people. You have certain responsibility to the organization. You want to do things in such a way that increases production, but also it brings your people along. I remember in the beginning, when I started managing, I would have these brilliant ideas and I would run with them, but nobody was following me. So I'd have to stop and go back and get them on board. So I think there's a lot of managers like that. How do I get my people on board with this? How do I bring them along? Because I don't want to be the lone ranger in the front line, but with Noami behind me, because I've left them behind. So that's nice. That's very hopeful. It gives me a lot of hope for the future when I see people. And I'm talking about thousands and thousands of people with that kind heart that really want to help. They really want to know. Do you mean that, is it internationally that managers are now more curious about this topic, or you have more observations in USA only? No, no, no. We have seen the USA take off. In the UK, there were already a little bit more on board, but since the pandemic started, yeah, this country have really taken it on board and have started looking into how do we help people? How do we make them happy? How do we ensure that now that they're working from home, they don't feel isolated? So yeah, I definitely have seen a huge interest come up on the topic lately. So health pandemic. What kind of actions do business leaders take now to prevent their employees to burn out or just to feel like happy and productive at their workplace? Are there any new techniques or new programs that we've never heard before? No, I mean, I have been in the industry for a long time, so I think it's hard to hear something new that hasn't been tried. And I think there has been a recognition from the pandemic onwards. There has been a recognition that look, mental health is a more intricate topic than we thought. You know, for in the beginning, what I see organizations do is say, hey, we should do a wellness program, and then they have exercise or gym memberships and things like that. And then they say, well, we should educate people on what is depression. And then they look for people in their organization, maybe sometimes to save money, and they get these people to deliver some courses. And over the years, what's happened is they've realized, hang on, we have tried that and it hasn't worked. We need professionals in, we need the experts in. And that's when they've been calling us to come in and help them out with that problem. Because, you know, there's a couple of issues. It's very different to have been sick of something, then recover. It doesn't make you an expert. Like, you know, most people have been to the hospital for one reason or another. But no one leaves the hospital thinking, hmm, I could be a doctor now because I've had a broken arm. Now I can be a doctor. So mental health is the same thing. You may have had a depression, you may have an anxiety, schizophrenia, whatever it is. And that gives you an insight into what the experience is. But it doesn't necessarily give you an insight as to what the techniques, skills, and the language needed for recovery is. So it is more complex than people think. You know, we get even psychiatrists, psychologists, mental health social workers attending our, and our events, simply because they realize the therapeutic environment is one thing that really good at that they feel that they're good at that. But when it comes to how do we take off the mental health of an organization, that's a completely different thing that they're not, they don't feel adequately prepared for. I understand. So, but what's the cost of the work related stress and anxiety and depression that you just mentioned for the organization? Oh, it's huge. You know, the cost can be up to 50% reduced productivity from someone that has got a mental health issue on average. That is not being taken care of. Now, once the research shows once people start to recover, and they start getting on with their life and establishing goals for their lives, they may still be unwell. But once that recovery process starts, we see productivity rates go up. And over time, we see that the productivity of people that have recovered from mental health issues, it tends to be greater than those people that have never had a mental health problem. So there's a very good reason to look into this and make sure that people are feeling well, they're feeling engaged, they're feeling happy. I don't like the term happy because happy is a side effect. But they're feeling that they belong to the organization and that the organization cares for them in an appropriate way for the organization itself. We see really good productivity rates. The return on investment is great. For example, a person with depression has at least one day of a week. That's 20% of the time dedicated to work reduced. You know, that's a that's a big cost. The big one that most people don't think about is presenteeism when you have somebody that is so anxious is so depressed that they are at work, but they're not necessarily at work. There may be five hours on Facebook or or they may be stressing or they or they're daydreaming or they're worried about whether the boss likes them or not. So that we call the presenteeism that they they're taking the time slot, but nothing is happening of consequence. So that's very expensive for businesses. Yeah, but how the business can recognize mental health issues if the employee doesn't share it with it with them. Yes. Yeah, that that is a big problem. Svetlana, I'm glad that you mentioned that because up to set up to 50% of people that were surveyed. They said that they would not tell the workplace that they had a mental health problem. Yeah, so that that's huge. I mean imagine as a manager trying to run an organization and people they're not telling you their problems because they're scared off of the ramifications of that. So it's important as a manager. I say that as a manager if that's happening in your organization, in reality, you're driving blind, you're managing without the data that you need. Because if you're going to be giving a personal task, you wouldn't know that they can cope with it, not just because they have the skills but also emotionally. So yeah, it's. Yeah. Yeah, that's an interesting question. I'm really observing it on like I'm trying to observe it through myself at work. Yes. Yeah, one of the questions I had was you had an interview with the Apple's co founder. And I'm curious what he think as a tech giant co founder for the mental health of his employees. He doesn't keep it a secret. I mean, the interview with Steve Wozniak is in our channel, the mental wealth TV channel for the WMHI so anyone can watch it if they want. More personal because I think I saw it but maybe you'll get some, I don't know. Man, he has got a big heart. He's got the heart in the right place, and he really feels for people and he was absolutely adamant to me saying, you know, this is such an important topic, we need to take care of people's mental health. I think the biggest motivation for him is he likes people. He wants to take care of people, but then he's also a businessman. So he said, but it's also good business. Because when you take care of your people, people respond, they notice the loyalty that you have given them, and they tend to produce more and it's better for your business. It's better for everyone overall. Yeah. But definitely he's a great man. Well, in this relation, I don't know if you're aware of Think Cook's wishes to take all the employees back to the office. There was, the employees have launched a campaign to push back his intentions to remove all the flexibility from their lives. So probably there are a lot of other employees who face the same employers who face the same employer's distance to go back to the office. What advice would you give to them to find a balance between the business trust and the mental health? Because probably as a manager, a lot of them would like to see their employees in the office, but if it doesn't make them happy as you said, it's not a great word. So how could you balance if they don't want to follow you, let's say that way? So that's a difficult one. Once you give a person a freedom, it's very hard to take it back without some psychological suffering. Will that make them mentally ill? Not really, doesn't have to. But a more concerned is the levels of fear in our society right now. Fear from each other. People have started to look at each other, not as people anymore, but as biohazard units, I call them. We've been told that we have to be careful how close we get to people, we can't do the things that we know that are psychologically really healthy, like touching each other and hugging and sharing a drink. And doing those things that make us human, that makes us social, they've been taken away and they have done that through a lot of fear. The media has done a great job introducing high levels of fear in our society. So now people are being asked to go to work, but they don't feel safe. They don't feel safe because those biohazard units, those evil people that carry viruses and bacteria are out there by the thousands. So I think it's going to be a gradual, we're going to have to do that very gradually. I have seen some organizations where it's possible, you know, this is not always possible, where it's possible. Some organizations have said, look, have some days in the office, come into the office some days and will manage how many people go into the office. And then have some days at home, work from home and they have started that way. So people get over that fear of going into the office, going to meeting people. Yeah, they break that. So I think that's very wise, but I think it's very important too for people to return to work in a physical sense, because if we don't expose ourselves to the things that make us afraid, we never grow beyond their fears. And that's also a problem. So people say, oh, it's bad for my mental health to return to work because I feel scared and I'm depressed and anxious. Well, we know that one of the most effective ways for to deal with phobias, which are an extreme form of anxiety, is what we call exposure therapy. An exposure therapy involves in a very safe environment to introduce the thing that the person is scared to introduce it slowly so they build a resilience to it. Yeah, remember, mental health doesn't exist in the avoidant space. Mental health exists in the living space. When we live, when we're resilient, when we expose ourselves to the risks to live a full life, that's good mental health. When we hide at home terrified from a wife or kids or dogs or whatever is going to give us a virus or bacteria, terrified of death, that's not a good mental health space. That's a bad mental health space. Yes, unfortunately, a lot of people struggle with it in the last year and what I see is that people are getting more and more opposed to the ones who are vaccinated and the ones who are not. And in this relation, you probably saw that CNN fired three employees for coming to work and vaccinate and then they did it like everybody understood that. They wanted people to know that if they don't go vaccinated, they'll be fired. How do you think this would affect the mental health of the people who are not sure that wants to get the vaccine and work in CNN and could they feel like pushed to do it and for me it seems like a big issue for the mental health if I know that. This is a very difficult topic because there's people scared on both sides. So this is very, very difficult, but let me clarify one thing. We have known for decades, you know, and mental health is not such an old field. So decades, it's a long time in mental health. When we have known one thing in mental health, in order for a person to be mentally healthy, they have to have a sense of agency. Agency, it's a word that denominated, it means people are making their own decisions. They're living their own lives. A little bit like saying my body, my choice that become really popular, my body, my choice. So that idea of I'm a human being. This is my life. I'm responsible for my life. That's good mental health, that agency. So when you try to impose your fears on someone else and then force them to do it because you're scared. That's very dangerous for the mental health of the person that you're forcing. Yeah, that's very dangerous for them too. Yeah, for the mental health and I believe for the organizational culture as well. Yeah, I mean, what kind of message are you sending to your people? You do as I say, or else you're out. I mean, besides the point that in most countries would be illegal. It would be illegal. So these kind of actions haven't been tested out well in the courts yet. So I would say employers hold off, you know, just wait. There are other ways of dealing with these things. What else can you do in order to bring people together? Could they have a day? Is it possible in the organization? I mean, I'm just thinking out loud now. Is it possible in the organization to have days where they vaccinated going and days when they are vaccinated going? Just remember, the vaccinated are afraid of the unvaccinated because they haven't got the vaccine. But the unvaccinated are also afraid of the vaccinated because they have the vaccine. So there's also scientific evidence that the vaccinated may be a risk to the unvaccinated. But fear doesn't let people think. So can we accommodate people? Is that possible? Well, throw them out. By the way, you're an employer and you're throwing people out because they're respecting their own conscience and they're making the best decisions. You're not being a very clever employer, are you? You need to stop. You need to think, OK, how else can we do this? It may be fashionable now to throw your, I call it throw them out, firing them now, but what about two years from now? Who would like to come and work for you? That's what you mean? Yeah, well, we don't know. Two years from now, you may need the very same people that you've just fired now. Yeah, true. So don't be in a hurry. See what else can be done. How can you accommodate everybody lovingly? I think the key here that we forget is lovingly. Can we lovingly do things? And I'm not talking about a Disney movie kind of lovingly, yeah, because that's too soft. But, you know, as mature adults, let's not have people in charge that are paranoid as well. You know, let's leave paranoia outside of the meeting room and come in and talk. What can we do? What is the situation? How can we make sure that people feel safe and they're working with each other? So another thing I would do is, you see, people have been separated for so long that probably they've forgotten that they're friends. Through that. Yeah. Right. We are friends. We're not enemies. Through, you know, we love each other. But we have been separated for so long that I think people are forgetting. So is there a way to bring them together to have a conversation to express themselves? This is not about fighting. It's about coming together in unity and help each other. So you're vaccinated and you're scared. Great. How about if I go in to work on Thursdays and you go in to work on Fridays and then we're working together. We can work through Zoom. That's not dangerous. And we're respecting each other's boundaries, but we're still friends. Yeah. We're not separate. It's an idea. True. Yeah, it's kind of really set. I see it around and there are even people who start to work fully remotely and they've never seen their colleagues. They've never had a drink together. It's really strange. Yeah. And there's another aspect too. Not only when having they seen their colleagues, but when they see their colleagues, they're not seeing the expression because we're hiding behind the mask. Yeah. Psychologically, we need all of this. This idea is not for me. It's for you. And that thing there is not for you. It's for me. So when we cover our faces, we are negating our face to somebody else. Yeah, and that's a gift. Yeah, we are hiding our personalities. Yeah. And I have a smile. My God. Smile are chatting and talking. The one thing that I've noticed is through this is people that are not talking so much anymore together. They're doing the basic, but not the cheat chat that used to happen. So I happen to be in Spain right now and Spanish are very well known for, you know, talking to each other blah, blah, blah, blah. That conversation has been missing for 18 months. No. And that's sad. That's very sad because this is something that holds the society together. And we need to get back to that. We need to remember these things need to, we somehow need to work over the mask. We need to work over the vaccine. We need to come together in unity and love and compassion and tolerance. These are words the values that we used to have as a society. We used to have them and we need to get back to that. Yeah, it's the same like we need to take care of the nature, basically the global warming is here. Why because we take care of nature. Well, what's the point of saving the planet if there's no humans to enjoy it? Yeah, true. What's the use of a tree if there's no kid to to climb on it. I mean, honestly, we can't throw the baby out with the water. And this is I think what we're doing, you know, let's throw let's get rid of all this. No, no, no, no. Let's come together in love and find solutions that are practical. Yes. And are respectful of each other's points of view. Yes. We have been doing it for thousands of years. Why not now? Yeah. Well, we'll see. So in this relation, say that the happy workplace may no longer be relevant. Why? What do you mean? Well, because happiness, it's, it's, it's a byproduct of doing the thing that psychologically is advantageous. For I'll give you an example. If I try to be happy at work, I'm probably not going to succeed. But if I focus on my job, I become engaged with what I'm doing, and I get myself in a flow state with what I'm doing. Then I will feel an inner peace that I identify as happiness. True. Being happy is not relevant. The other reason why being happy at work is not so relevant. It's not going to be relevant so much anymore. It's because we're being replaced by a lot of robots. You know, there's going to be less and less and less human beings in workplaces. I mean, now we've got giga factories. Have you heard of them? Gigafactors. You know, they're bigger than a few stadium fields. And you look inside of those gigafactors and there's not a single human being. You can't find anyone for miles. Everything is being done by robots. So why would happiness be relevant in that workplace? So I would say, don't focus too much on being happy at work. Focus on getting a set of skills that can't be questioned. Become all you can be. And this is something that through the Institute where we're really pushing now. Become the best version of yourself. Because the best version of yourself will have more probability of not being replaced by a robot. By the way, I'm not making this thing up, Svetlana. The robots have been here for a few years. We have the technology already not to have any truck drivers on the road. We can have no truck drivers. Can you imagine that? No. Or taxis with no taxi drivers. Uber drivers. Uber cars with no Uber drivers. We don't need to go into a shop anymore and have somebody to pay for the groceries. It can all be done automatically. So being happy is not going to be that relevant. What is going to be relevant is, do you have something to offer to humanity that very few people have? That will make you precious and that will make you employable. Yes. The way you talk, it's really interesting for me, but it kind of makes me sad as I usually think about. I'm sorry, I didn't mean to make you sad. I'm hoping to inspire people to be the best versions of themselves. I really think that this world is starving for loving people, compassionate people, but smart, skillful people, tolerant people, loving people. And if we get more of those, then we will survive fine. It would be okay. Yeah. What would you suggest to Bulgarian, what would you advise our Bulgarian managers to do to create a successful team who wants to work hard and can't wait to get there as you say? Well, the number one thing I would say go out, if you can read English by the Book Mental Wealth Guide that you've told them already about, because we wrote it down and we put it in there. If you can run our Leaders Masterclass course in your workplaces, but if you apply what you learn in the book, you will be far ahead of the game in that sense. But above all, be compassionate, but don't be a mother or a father. Be compassionate, but understand that people are powerful. They're not weak. Believing the power of people, not in their weakness. They will try to convince you that they're weak. They will try to convince you that they're a victim. Don't fall for it. They're not. So the biggest gift that you can do as a manager is to have a look at your people and say, wow, these people are amazing. I know Svetlana and she's this, this and this and this. What a set of skills. It's amazing. I know this other guy. So know your people. The other thing is, talk to your people on a regular basis. Don't wait until they have a problem to talk to them. Because it will probably be too late or too hard to resolve it. Well, if you only talk to your people when you have a problem with them, then you're sending the message. The only way to get attention in this workplace is when you have a problem. You don't want to do that. It's always nice to like taking knowledge from the Western experience because I am here in Bulgaria. We start developing in the right direction. I believe in many managers realize how they need to change their attitude. No, we'll see. Anyway, so I have two more questions. You're, you're referring to a human 3.0. What, what is this? What is its main characteristic? All right. I talked about the human 3.0 because we used to talk about the human 2.0. They're not sure if you remember, probably you're too young to remember. But before the 2000s started, the human 2.0 was worried about the Y2K. We were thinking that planes were going to fall off the sky when the computer system changed. We used to have a different set of problems and the human 2.0 was about emotional intelligence and how to, how to make, how to face the problems that were coming. The human 3.0 is someone of what I've already described to you before. It's someone that has a heart, but it also has a brain. You can see the problems coming and prepares for them. It doesn't wait for a solution, an external solution to come. It's somebody that says, what can I do to prepare myself for what is coming? This is coming. It's coming. AI is coming. The robots are coming. Less jobs are coming. You know, the Delta variant is coming and probably will have the Z variant and the Omega variant later on because viruses keep changing. That's always existed. So we see these things coming. What can I do to prepare? What can I do to be the type of individual people will pay for my services? Because I'm so good at what I do. So this is the human 3.0. A human 3.0 is not a victim. A human 3.0 is a doer. It's someone that goes out, helps their fellow human beings with their needs, makes it happen and becomes valuable in their own right. Because competition is going to be stiff. Yeah, okay. I understood that. Well, hopefully we'll be like this. We'll be always ready to meet the challenges. Yes, but you're doing the right thing. Yeah, doing the right thing. Yeah, absolutely. You are doing the right thing. You're preparing yourself in Bulgaria. There's an interest in these things. That's really good. Yeah, you can prepare with knowledge or with actions. You can prepare with everything. Yes. And what does a resilient organization look like according to you? Okay, a resilient. I compare it. Think of a commando team. Commando team, okay. The commando team, right? They're all strong. They don't say, oh, there's an obstacle over there. Well, I'm going to get anxious or depressed or thing. I can't function. It's not a self-talk that they have on a commando team. You got to go and achieve your mission. So that's pretty much what a resilient team looks like. Yes, there are dangers. Yes, there are things that are negative, but we don't dwell on them. We don't dwell on them. It's also a team that the self-talk, it's a healthy self-talk. They don't say, oh, I wish my manager was better. If my manager was better, then everything would be okay here. No. A resilient team says, my manager is in trouble. How can we help her? How can we help him? We don't live in dreamland. We live in reality. Yes, the world should be a nicer place, but it isn't. How do we make better the place that we're in? So that's a resilient team. A resilient team works on reality. It's not a victim and they do us. They're problem solvers. It's basically a team made of human 3.0. Exactly. You got it. That's a nice summary. Yeah. That was all from me. I believe we can talk much longer, but thank you very much for all the things you shared with me. It was really interesting for me. I hope for our readers as well. Hi, I'm Emmy Golding, Director of Psychology for the Workplace Mental Health Institute. We hope you liked the video. If you did, make sure to give it a thumbs up. We have more and more videos being released each week, so when you subscribe, you'll get a notification letting you know when a new one's just been published. So make sure to hit that subscribe button and don't miss out on this vital information for yourself, your colleagues and your loved ones.