 Welcome to Toffy TV. Dave and Keith back in the studio. It's been a while global pandemics keep on us apart, but we are back away. I'm good, man. I'm getting a bit of a summer vibe going on at the moment. I've got my flip flops on, I've got a hat on. I'm kind of happy. We'll enjoy your nice weather. It's really good. Dave, how are you, kid? I'm good, you know. I'm pleased to be so. I'm good, brother. Thank you. Good, good. I'm looking forward to getting back at it. It's been a while, I want to. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's been a while. Whatever that means. Yeah. Where do we start, like? Yn y last time, I've been talking about Carl and Antelottion and what was going on and the excitement and calmness that that brought. Last week, it all came to a abrupt halt, shall we say. I mean, but Dave, go on. You can kick us off. What do you think? What happened with Antelottion at the end? I think it was a legacy. This is just my personal opinion, but I think it was a legacy of the fact. Actually, it's a microcosm of what's going to happen with Hermès in my opinion. I'm projecting it, but we basically, in the negotiation, he held every single card. So if he came in and said we're going to call Thursday, Tuesday, that's what's going to happen. So as soon as Ray on the Dread come in, the position he was in negotiation wise got secured in the contract, which then gave him the out. I think Hermès will do something similar to be perfectly frank with you when I see the list of perspective replacements. So that's a problem. If you're going to do anything as an Evertonian, everyone's underwhelmed, everyone's apathetic. Many, many people are irate and angry, and all the other descriptive terms you can apply to it. However, it might well be now. We talk this talk, but we don't actually walk the walk. We have been in here. I'm keeping the card coming up here. I've done every single manager in this studio since Roberto Martinez, and all we ever do is reiterate the same idioms of New Project, three-year plan, four transfer windows, ydi, ydi, ydi, ydi, ydi, ydi. And time goes by and we're not here. Economists call it a zero-sum game. Well, we're in a zero-sum game with ourselves. We take a step forward, then we take a step back, and three years goes by and we're still taking steps forward to go back. These are all problems which do not pertain to this particular appointment. It's not about this manager. It's about if this doesn't work out, whomever they may choose in another 15, 18, two years' time, what's our plan from there? Because do we then end up with a team full of somebody else's players, again, three years down the line, another 100 million quid through at it, and everybody's still saying, oh, no, whatever, and then we'll do this? Well, no, it's now time for accountability. It was no one's fault that Auntie Lottie walked out. I've just explained that, my personal opinion about it. We gave him that by our very vulnerability at the time of his appointment, which was then a legacy of the previous appointment. And we got in because we appointed Coom in the previous time, and everybody said to come and put the fires out. This is all own goals. This is nobody else's fault. No one's come and cherry-picked us. This is what happened. So we've got to get better, not just a little bit better. We've got to get a lot better. You look at Leicester, you look at Westam. I'm not even mentioning the big clubs here. You look at Aston Villa in the transfer market, inferring that that might be the way they go as well. And we don't seem to be doing anything of the sort. We really don't. And that is the bit what troubles me. It doesn't seem like we've got any kind of see the whole board plan. We're just looking one or maybe two moves ahead, when, in fact, all the good players, the ten moves that Ed made, they're on to next season, then the season after. And if we don't get that, you can throw as much money as you want, and it's never going to get anywhere. Keith, Carlo. I mean, Dave's covered quite a lot of what I think anybody could mean Dave speak a lot about that anyway. But I sort of think we'd arrived at a point where we felt that we were quite settled with aware what people were, you know, we were led to believe as a well-class manager. And he is a well-class manager, you know, in terms of the things that he's won and that everyone has sort of arrived at a point of being settled. And when we've normally arrived at this point with managers in the past, where the fan base really is up in arms, you know, the fan base is kicking off because of the position that we've sort of filled. And I think why this has really stung so much, possibly, with Evertonians, because we're at a point where we're prepared to go, actually, we're going to give this fella the time that he needs, do you know what I mean? Because you've only got to look at Klopp, you've only got to look at certain other managers. And the way of setting football teams is most managers need two to three years. And because of the way, the process that we've been going through where we're replacing our manager every 18 months, no, that patience just isn't there within the fan base right now. And so there's that, really. And I think because we've invested that much, that's why it stung so much when it kind of happened. I can't really answer financiality or the decision she's made, or the choices that she's made. But I think Dave's made a really, really important point, is that we seem to have placed ourselves as a club in a position where we just have to accept what we are. We're not holding all the cards where we're negotiating with that type of manager. Now, everyone's asking for the world class sorts of type of manager right now. We're not necessarily in a position to hold all the cards with that. We're not in a position where we can negotiate a great deal for us. So we also have to accept that if we're going to go for that style and that type of manager, that the ultimate risk is what's just happened, because that will happen again. I can guarantee if we take one of those managers. The other point, really, I'm thinking is we're not learning. Or maybe I say we, but who do we really mean? I possibly mean the club isn't learning. And they're not learning from the experiences that we're having. And there needs to be a process. And I don't know whether this goes on within a business like Everton or a club like that, when they reflect upon the mistakes that they've actually made and then looking about those particular experiences and how they inform the decision making process moving forward. And by that, you've got to set the right aims and the right goals. Because normally the learning is in the journey. It's not necessarily in the destination, because the destination just means you've done the work and that you've made the right goals and made the right aims and that you've learned from the actual process. So I think we have to consider what have we all learned from this right now. And then what are the choices that they're presented with and what is an option. I don't feel Everton in a great position with management right now. They don't even have to take a similar risk to what they've actually taken in the past. Or they take a different type of risk with what people consider to be a high profile, acceptable to everyone on the fan base. Although the fan base doesn't seem to know right now, because everyone's got a different opinion. A type of manager which is sort of ancillotty's level. Now when you're doing that, you're running all those risks that David's just mentioned. This person could leave after 18 months, or as soon as something better-looking comes into sight. Or as soon as a better opportunity comes across, they're going to be off. Because we're told, I mean I've seen this by journalists, notable journalists from local publications saying, well that's football now, okay that's football now and we have to accept it. Well then we're going to have to accept it the next time it happens aren't we? And then we're going to have to accept it that, safe in the knowledge that the next person we employ is just going to walk through someone better comes across. So call it a counter strategy? In business, in any business, something that happens, that's a strategy, you have a counter strategy if the pandemic comes. If you haven't got one already, you evolve one, you devise one, that's the whole reason you're sitting there on the big contract. Because if you can't, I'm not talking about individuals, I'm talking about an institution, any institution, you have a counter strategy and we don't appear over time, over five or six managers, which is four managers too many, if you don't mind me saying so, we do not appear to have manifested anything resembling it, whether that's from the academy to the first team, whether that's from getting a squad with a director of football, two separate directors of football, where we're a master squad who are athletes and can run up and down and we've got With and solid midfielders and a defender and we can pay them from them, which appears to be the model in European football. We've had five and six goals at it and haven't got anywhere near it. With that? Obviously, yeah, I'm sick of breath and I'm pach a lot of work. You did that. I did that when it's fine. I mean, With that, there is obviously those pitfalls. We had a period of stability for 11 years under David Moison. You did? Some of it was good and other bits was the glass ceiling and the knife, the gunfight and all that nonsense that we positioned ourselves as a club, that all of a sudden wasn't one of the big clubs. It was a little club punching above it's way, which I still hadn't forgiven them for, to be honest, but it is what it is. And then we obviously got partners and we tried to do things a bit differently and after a year that went sour and we ended up in my opinion playing some of the most boring football I've ever seen. The last five years we've played it. No, no, what we've done in the last five years is we've just had different versions of it. 800 passes to go between the two defenders. No, I'm not saying, I'm not saying that. But then we got what I was saying was then the money came in and if you'd have said to me in 2016 ever going to spend close to half a billion pound in the next five years, had it been going on, Champions League, we'll have won cups, we'll be up challenging for the league and sat here five years later. Literally. In a bit of a mess. So what I was going to say with that is instead of just picking managers out and going, it's cumin and there's aladais for a bit and there's silver and there's anti-lottie. How do we get away from just collecting managers because every time you get a manager, see what the European model is and what I thought the director of football model was going to be was that the director of football was going to go right and this is one of the people I'd put forward for the Evans job would have been Ralph Rangier who's one of the fans that you'll know him. He's 62 now. No, we know that. I'm not being aged. I'm just looking for a three, five year period. No, of course. But what I'm saying is what he's managed to do at clubs like Leipzig is put that in place and get these young players in hungry, fast, athletic, sell them on. Bit like Leicester, people of Lord and Leicester. How do we move to that? Cos at the moment we are, you've played on the five. You've left five different managers now. I've been on this show many a time and we've said countless times on this show that money is great. It's not going to answer the problems. Money alone isn't going to sort this for you. We've said that on countless times and I think we've been proven right. The reality is you have to have some proper strategy. We've said that in the past. I presume that that's what the director of football role was or is. I've seen, again, a lot of posts online where people are saying it's time for myself to stand up now. It's his moment. I look at the post and I think, well, where have you been since 2018? I thought the moment should have been the day when you came through the door. So that tells me that if that moment hasn't been happening and it's only about to happen now, well, why hasn't it happened one? Obviously there's been issues and problems there with that particular role. It's not working because it hasn't worked, has it? No. But the previous incumbent, that's the actual problem. It's that the people are pointing the director of football whomever this may be. This is the second time it's happened. So they replaced the first one because it didn't happen and we ended up with a squad full of expensive players. Most of them played the similar sort of position. They were all running as fast as each other. No one did anything different than anybody else and we had a fame of them here. We said, no, that's not good as a model. We're going to swerth that and implement this European fella who sees the whole board. And here we are three years later. So that speaks to it. Maybe it wasn't those individuals. Maybe it was a lack of a concept higher up the pyramid. We don't know. These are the problems that need addressing right now irrespective of who comes in. This is what I'm trying to tell you. We're going to be here with whatever happens, 80% of the squad of the last two and three years are going to be playing for us this time next year. So I need someone with a solution. I don't need them to tell me what went wrong because we're all patently aware of it. I need someone to come in and say, right, this is, it's a 10 stage programme. These are the first three steps you need to make and that's where you're looking to get by next season. We're going to start the season again, probably next year with, I'd say, the majority of the players that we've already got. A few might go up, but we're going to start the same because if you bring a new manager, a new manager's going to have to assess these players. You know, we're going through that process again and a new manager's going to have to come in and assess all those players that everyone's saying they won't go on or that they're good enough for, they're not good enough for, everyone's arguing about. So we're going to have these for the first part of our next season, that's what we're going to go on. And we might get some new ones in where it really shouldn't be in a position where that person who's in that role should have done that job already and that's the balance of when we've got a new manager coming in or not because surely that's what his role is, surely that's what the director of football role and job is, that's what we're told it is. So what my question is, why isn't that happening and why is it the moment now? Because it should have been frigging three years ago, that's when the moment should have been. Should have been doing that job already and we shouldn't be in a position where there might, I don't know whether there is. Maybe there's been conflict between some of the managers or maybe that relationship hasn't actually worked out. That needs resolving then, because unless you resolve that, we're not moving forward. If that's happening throughout the business as well and higher up it, but all we have to do is go forward if the structure isn't right. No, but let's get to the fan base, this has been unprecedented this year. So everybody's vicariously, I go to games, I've forgotten how many games I've been, that's how many games I go to. So watch games, I watch it every minute when I'm there, but it's been, we've been at a distance, we've been separated and the one thing, maybe the only thing we can say is we've just come off a season where we've had the most away wins since we last won the title, yet at the same time I've lost as many home games as we ever have in our history. So looking at that you'd say, our problem is if it's not our first 11, we get to the bench and we simply can't change a game. We simply can't change it because we've got no attackers, we've got no whip, we've got no pace, we've got no flare, so we're going to be here with the majority, maybe three, maybe four additions to this here now, this time next year having played a full season in the Premier League with everyone with aspirations and everyone strengthening and everybody moving forward. That's what we have to look at and say, see that situation, that's got to stop where whoever it is who you're buying whether it's the director of football, the previous director of football, the three managers who's been in since, whoever it is we need to turn up the first day this person, whoever that may be is appointed and saying this is how it's going to be now because otherwise we will literally just keep going round and round like a hamster on a wheel and ultimately if you're going to sell this game especially in the last 12 months where you're going to have to pay to watch it in the end people are going to say no, no I've lost my job because of the pandemic this is a massive massive question and actually we've got to stop we can only shoot ourselves in the foot so many times but you've got no feeling and this is it's tantamount to self-harm it's a bigger issue but we are on the situation where we haven't got a manager at the moment and there's a lot of names getting bounced around we've done a live show before and went through the odds for people people like Wafford Minutes on David Wagner Wothersfield David Wagner and I know listen it's easy as a bookie but I have a Wagner to do a better job I'm sure it wasn't Wagner and it's only old content people like this the bookies obviously will just look and go who's your manager, your own I'm forever and it's people throwing money aww I've got a couple of quid on him in the next minute the odds go up we've got to a situation today where Daddy How is the manager and the odds were suspended before he came out back so obviously you don't know what's going on there Graham Potter is the favourite for the Everton's job from now on new now he's off to a palace according to the analysts so he's off the table and there's other people Duncan Ferguson's on there Eddie How David Moy's there's all of these people but we're coming down to ones you've seen to be in the running I like to listen to him far but he's another one he's a bit older and he'd be a short same thing but where we are at the moment in the running new now was a lot of journalists always taking the job in the next 24 hours and all of this last week maybe a week later he looks like he's off to a palace what would you thought of being on him first of all as a man, left wolves I'm going to say the whole thing the whole list the biggest problem to me is that there's no names jumping out at you first of all secondly there's kind of high ish profile managers out of work right now we've got one Soto Voci two billionaire owners and they're not we're going to have new ground within three years this is like if this was on Tinder or the dating site you're going up not down so you'd ask yourself why aren't these people banging down our door just to get an interview just to get a flavour of it let's have a look because where we are are fan base where we're based geographically all of these things you would say if you had the self-awareness as a prospective manager at that level you'd look at evidence and say it's not that far away and if you could do it here the fella who does it will be a legend forever more so that's enticing for the potential manager but the very fact that there's nobody nobody of that ilk has even insinuated that they might be interested and it's been open for a week now so that troubles me so we'll look at that list and see who you're talking about I'm talking about for example his agent is literally making eyes at everybody in European football that's what he's doing and I know there's nothing and that troubles me if you really want me to know we're now fishing in a completely different pond well maybe we need a reality check that's the case maybe we do as a fan base but those facts I've just said to you they haven't changed we've still got this fan base we're still going to this ground and we've still got one stroke two potential billionaires upstairs why wouldn't you why wouldn't you I'm not talking about taking it I'm talking about negotiating so why do you think well no I don't know I'm saying I thought you were going to reveal it when I see this list well come back just pause there because I think that's dead interesting we will come back to that but just on I asked him about Nuno when he swayed so Nuno for you was when you seen him link with everything what the fuck did you think as a manager I thought he'd done well at Wolves but he's it's silver is that what you think I don't mean that disrespectfully to him as a manager I think he's done really well and he's done good but whether he can come to heaven and turn this around with the demands of our fan base I just don't think I can't say it I'm just a bit underwhelmed because right now I'm a bit it's a bit confusing as to what we're doing I think it's as we've said countless times on here just a manager really isn't it there's obviously issues and problems because we keep ending up right back in the same situation Graham Potter Dave is someone who's I mean he's flew up to become the favourite now and I think that was based on an article I think in the athletic today saying that Marcel Brand likes him so don't waste dropping the hints to them but he's 46 he's being at Oster Sons in Sweden he's done well there one stuck them into Europe a league last 82 with players he ran as good as what the others went down really well then to Swansea he's come to Brighton, he's actually lost more games than he's won a Brighton but still Brighton play really good football and if they had Dominic Albert Lew in the front he'd have probably finished the top half and just talking about what people are saying about Brighton because they obviously pressed very well and he creates chances I've got nothing against him nor Nuno but if you're asking me, do you feel that the competent to be Everett manager now, right now, I'm going to say no I'm willing to be proven wrong but if you're asking me and you'd have come to me but if you were a month ago if you'd have come to me and said any of these people were potentially linked with being Everett manager within the next six weeks you're a crazy person and you've lost your mind so to fact, I'm genuinely telling you that list there if you'd look at it and just think that's just not literally crazy that isn't one step back, that's three so it's not his fault nor is it the previous fella nor any of the other potential shooters none of those people, the fact is we are here now and you're asking me does he ring any of my bells I'm going to be honest with you and say for every box that he ticks the kind of motive I think the one thing I would say for him is he establishes a style of playing follows he did it to one, he did it to the rest of the sun he done it to Brighton, fair play to him one thing that does alarm me though seeing something from his the criticism from Brighton fans goes to his heart I'm going to say we can be quite difficult fan base at times he does the get thick skin very very quickly I think but it's not because we haven't managed it you know you've almost got to be as level you've got to be part of the history you've got to understand it and we're not saying he doesn't and it's not against that particular person it's just whether or not he can come here and take the demands it's not just managing a football team you're managing the demands of a really really fanatical fan base and I'm not saying Brighton on but when you've got like 30,000 people in that stadium screaming at you or like what they did with Roberto on the pitch I'm giving him shit I'm sorry about the language during the game I don't know whether that person we are we're a mad fan base we're fanatical we're also we're angry we're angry because we keep taking steps back we're angry because there's no identification I don't think there's what's going on at the football club I think anyway and I think the other thing as well is that where everything does which is what people will class us at now because of what we've seen you know and I think and you've got the evidence it's the evidence that I think a good thing or a bad thing or what I was going to say was because you in my mind I still think that my demands for evidence are what I've seen as a kid which was just winning leagues now I accept and sat here knowing for a fact that we are knowing there winning leagues so I get that but every time you pull on that that blue shirt and jog out onto that pit that stadium's full of ida lids who don't think you're any better than they are in 19, 20 years old or it's older people who've seen better stuff and basically comparing that to that so you have to be able to front it up one person I did think don't act quite well was moist because moist remember the times when and I've said this before I need to be coming on as a sub and people were doing and I need to be set to go up and he took his coat off and threw it and he stood there doing that so and I think we kind of went alright you can mix it we'll have that where as other managers just shrunk I think what Carlo did better than others was because of who he was everyone kind of went and the other thing as well the other thing is what has helped Carlo inadvertently is although I don't think I don't think it would have played out that way if we'd have been in the grand because I was in the grand against Wolves the other week and six and a half thousand people made them plays run faster than the grand probably since Ferguson was in charge of that Chelsea game when everything ran more than any other I'm not a game that was but that's what I mean so we almost have to get a manager who can take that criticism so then would moist be a consideration he's been mentioned he's fourth favourite but I'm just asking you for you I don't believe whether or not we approach them I don't think he'd go anywhere but would you have them back given the list of the names I don't think he'd come back I don't think he'd be the right thing to do he just don't do it he's been away too long he's the fourth favourite the actual point I was going to make here is pick a name out of any of those plus the ones the longer list the 16 to 1 the 20 to 1, the 25 to 1 and tell me a scenario whereby in 10 12, 14, 16, 18 20 months time from now I've had a bad run seven or eight games I've known over the road again come back and whoever you'd like to pick from that list is not being called fraud interloper, imposter and the same as the previous five years so to revert to your actual fundamental question was what do you think about these that's my fear for all of them that's my fear for all of them cos at that point you went from Swansea to just battle and relegation from them in the case of him the other fella at Wolves he ran you out after two years, spent all the money he brought all these Portuguese he led you after two years or three years whatever it was so we get to that so I'm saying to you do you envisage a scenario where anybody on that list is able to counter that in the ground screaming in your face thing about silver at-a-dave not so much anti-lottic for the reasons you've just highlighted but my point is that's the actual issue because my biggest fear is it's not even about this it's about are we going to be here again doing this whole the same day all over ground dog day following our team that's what's really troubling me, that's the biggest issue I've got is because I'm not filled with any optimism by the people in charge there's five, six, eight years of their appointments whereby I can say to myself I see it because I honestly don't so it's not about the individuals on the list it's more about, it's more symptomatic of the actual thing and I can't see a solution to that 18 months time problem in any of them I genuinely can't show at the hours in the answer you blew about the hour at the water for it even at the chance you get east no, we know you I mean they're all nice people and they're all nice good managers but again Eddie how it's just like I think one of the things I have with the whole situation is there isn't, I don't think we've got answers for any of them and so when people make arguments for and against I think there's going to be a counter arguments anyway, I think Eddie how I look at them and go but at Bournemouth we've played 70 goals a season conceded year after year and you haven't this was my thing with Martinis 70 goals, 70 goals, 70 goals got the evidence job at Moses defence for year one it was alright, got into this stand and then goals, goals, goals and Eddie how I think you've got to identify that so with that being said and looking at the list without it being Antonio Conte he's just won the league at Inter and probably wants 20 million a year I think in terms of stats don't his teams concede more goals than anyone else Conte? No How? So in terms of stats and any other manager of the Premier League in terms of stats he's conceding more goals than anyone else or he's certainly up there so that alone just makes me think One other worry for me is he played Liverpool about £45 million for Sri Lankan which is a worry it's a worry one walk so it's a no for me to see how the guys asked where the bangos me are I mean there'll be better stats at it but he's goal conceding It's not a bad impersonate this is to sit here now, lads like us who've got as many years in as what we've got to be sitting here turn the camera off we'd still be having the same conversation this is that we just out there in the car this is not for the fact this is that genuinely believe it so it's not about us pushing it's about one person or another person it's where we are so the bigger problem the actual problem we need to solve this and that's right so you're looking at that who can do it well I guess the one fella we haven't discussed on there who is the third, second or third favourite according to the bookies is Duncan Ferguson who's already there now there's loads of the fan base say yeah loads of the fan base say no for whatever reason but some of the reasons I'm not sure we're all up with on the north side of it which is inexperienced or whatever I mean what are your thoughts cos obviously Duncan's been there for it we've just said full disclosure we all know him so before anyone starts but we all know him we don't know him well he's not one of our great friends but we all know him so that's got to be said full disclosure however I've just said to you every single person on that list has got a pros and a cons box so while his con is the fact that he's never been a manager he's the only person in the betting who knows this squad what I've just reiterated to you we're going to have 80% of them this time next year so whichever person comes in somebody's got to start getting a tune out of these or we are literally going to slide down that league so somebody has got to get a tune if that's a con that he hasn't never managed well it's surely then got to be a pro that he's the only person in that list who knows anything about our structure the best to get out of these players which Ancioloti struggled but 11 away wins would tell you that the potentials there but the own record was absolutely dire so that would tell you that the liable to shoot themselves in the foot as well so this might take person A, B, C or D off there off that whole list a year, nine months to get on to so I'd say he's nowhere near the favourite big man but I would say on that very basis alone he comes into the betting because there is literally no standout standout candidate and I think on that basis he should have at least got an interview even if he said to them not this time the thing is we don't there's been no quote from Dung we don't know so we might not even want it but he's in there some stories have said he'd like it whatever and so that's why you're after the scores and one thing I would say when people say no experience hasn't done this he's worked under the current Real Madrid manager he's worked under the current Barcelona manager he's worked under the current Belgian national team manager who apparently ranked number one in the world who apparently ain't got enough for ever we now have a kind of love them if you want to be romantic he played for us he knows about Premier League they don't qualify yet to be manager however the other bit does that have been inside the whole structure over not just one he was there with Martinis he wasn't in a great position elevator position under Martinis but he was there so that's surely got a comment he's seen people bought and still not being able to fit to this system we've all gotten out of this beautiful system so basically his inside info alone is why he keeps getting a job every time someone comes in and you point him again and again and again that's the reason so that's now a currency when we're in Clientel like this with a perspective a betting board of this sort of standard he comes into it he's not going to get the job we all know here today sitting here now he's not going to get the job because he hasn't been interviewed but we don't know do we well if he hasn't been interviewed I think it's appalling I mean I don't know if you're going to give Eddie how an interview surely you've got to give him one well I think he put it on the internet I don't know that to say it's my opinion that I think if he were he'd have made it plain I mean one thing Keith that I think you've got to take into consideration is he's worked with Ron he's incredible he brings young players love with Dominic Calderlun the improvements in both of those players would be enough and also one of the things I've seen was people saying oh well you know we need a link between the young players and the 13 stuff that I've been told and I've talked to a few of them we've made to raisins and different things he's the one who brings the kids up into the training so there is that link anyway there now at this one again I don't know if he wants it I haven't seen a direct vote from Duncan so I don't know if that's Chelsea games boss wasn't it we took over you know what was he about to forget just quickly what people forget is we've just been spanked at Amphil he got Friday, Thursday night do you want to take the game on a Thursday night and we beat team we were third and beaten in 18 games in the top three and we smashed him that Chelsea game was unbelievable somebody in the stadium and you know what he turned that squad round in three days three days he turned them round I've seen we were on the floor and deflated so we're going to get slaughtered for saying all this anyway I know that now but the other the Chelsea game was a great but I remember speaking to you because we were on our way to Manu Manu was a suicide mission because because they had that many injuries basically I had no one to pick from for the actual squad and we went there and we got it all so that's all that says let's be honest about this all that says is we had a glimpse of it so the people who wouldn't be in favour of them say anyone can do it over two or three games that's a fair comment because we don't know we haven't been shown and like you've just said we don't know if he even wants it but what we're talking is let's not take this out of context Duncan's getting a mention he's spoken about five or six different managers none of whom automatically jump out and say I'm the obvious favourite and I should be placed as such therefore once that's the case if it's the Grand National and there's 12 horses I'm trying to give you an analogy and there's no clear favourite there's 12 horses on 10, 11 to 1 it's one of a number so everyone's got the plus and negative points therefore he has to come into the reckoning on that basis that's what we're saying and we need to reiterate that we don't even know if he wants it but I do believe if they were intending to interview him I think they'd have said so and I think they'd have leaked it to Janis and he would have been included in the list of the approach new and old it's different if you've got Pequod the older banger on the door and maybe Clop or whatever but then you will be going you will be going on you've got to be stupid not you'll be stupid not to go with them I think really out of the choices that you've got there right now I think you mentioned the Grand National we've got five or six horses that are all going to be going round that track in the Grand National it's similar credentials as good pros and the good cons about them we've got to want one horse several times before any of them because they know the route where the pitfalls are where they might fall out of a particular fence and they also know their fan base imagine being over facing and taking this job on knowing how difficult our fan base is you've got to be a madman no one's going to say the thing before about you've got to be almost a scoutser he's been here 20 odd years he knows the city he's worked with people and all that so there is that as well it is like we said and then he's trying to reiterate for the final time we don't even know if he's interested we're just talking going he's on a list and we'll speak about it but it's because of that list if this was a list like you said you'd say to big man you need to maybe you do a list here now where everyone if you look down the internet and you just go over 10 minutes you'll see 6, 7, 8 we've just done a live show before there must have been, honest to God 13, 14 different names mentioned as matters and you're looking and going okay, I'm not going to because I said on the thing I can't say to you if you tell me that you want Duncan Fair I can't go you're wrong because no one can say to me who did you say wrong he's terrible because we don't know we don't know very how Graham Potter might be how a Kendall March we don't know but there's that many names you're looking for someone going well I don't know how by definition once you get to that stage that tells you they don't know that's the actual issue it's not about us but to get like that a generic list that kind of sort of maybe that's what it is let's not make any pretensions about it that's what that whole list is about and that tells you that the club themselves have got no clear idea where this to have Potter and Rania in the same bed and it's literally the opposite end of the spectrum Raffael Penithas? Anyway I'm saying to you it's literally it's scattergum this is not laser can I say this though because this might be the case and again we're having to say I'm not sat in a board room with Marcel Bransmishiri I haven't got a clue like for all I know Evan they've got a list here with three names that they want and they're honing in on them and they're all similar history tells you that isn't the case but I'm hoping that it's this time because we have to think like that we've got to be, we have got to have a positive Nysia Barre as well because at the moment it's like the plum and houses on fire behind that you've got to have a bit of lore of attraction a bit of positivity the old Kevin Costner feel the dreams if they build it he will come and all that but we're talking because these names are in the press so that's why it does and you're right Dave, you're absolutely right Raffael Penithas to Grey and Potter is like talking cheese you've got a fella who's a defensive manateur it's good because it is but he's a defensive manateur so a fella that builds off from the back so somewhere along the line everything's strategy and I think that's the issue imagine the scenario Raffael Penithas I've gone on against Raffael he's a great manager and he's got the CV he's quite defensive yes but he's got a bit of a pedigree we lose one to Abbey and I feel it will be ageing Penithas it will be we lose three games hang on that's not even true it's very first press conference you sit down as a manager some journalist at the back goes didn't you call 11 a small club it's dead in the water before it even starts that one and unfortunately that's just the nature of football in terms of let me to wrap it up let me just put your ride on the spot then but if you were Marcel Brans today and I actually think he'd wear a hat like that as well I think Marcel would he's quite tapper Marcel he's probably not tapper at his main line I don't think he'd have the flipflips but if you had to if you had to make the choice well I'd expect to be expecting Duncan Trim he's all coming to me and saying I know these players I've worked with these players under every manager for the last five years you know who we need to replace what have you got on your list who's coming in because we need to strengthen here, here, here, here and here and it's what we need to do and that's what I think I definitely think he needs to be in the mix he needs to be considered purely and simply for that there's been some great things said about him I think there's some negative things stuff being said about him which is a little bit naive from my point of view but I also feel that he has to be in the mix he has to be considered and that's where his actual strengths lie because I can guarantee any of the other managers there we're going to be in the same position in two years time and Duncan might be here then he might have gone to Real Madrid well I mean this deal that before I go to you before I go to you as well Dave I mean Adam was giving a go without any experience with Barcelona promote internally and and Teter who I remember doing this when Silver was shocked he was clamoring for R Teter who sat next to Pep and made his brew for two years and he was all of a sudden qualified to be the other manager Lampard got the job got the sack and then the kids he tried to get in the team then later the same season lifted the European Cup so in that aspect he'd say eh he'd have to come into the I'm not saying he'd have to if you're looking to build from a youth but people have mentioned Lampard would he be in the list so have I put again the same question to you then so no I if you're asking me genuinely I would not say lies to the Evertonians I haven't got a clue I look at it and I'm underwhelmed I'm apathetic because truly all I know is gut instinct I've spent my life with this club and I feel it visibly I experience everything the ups and downs I feel it in my bones I have I always will but if you're looking at this now and say inspire me if that's the question you're asking me I'm not inspired so I want them the people who are on these god damn salaries to come to me now and manifest the fact that why they were appointed in the first place because we're lost I don't say this often but we as a fanbase are currently lost we need this sheepdog we need someone to come in and say this is how it's going to be that's another thing what big man's got in his favour because he has got that air of authority but there's loads of things he hasn't got in his favour but that's my problem with it I don't see actually if you're going to ask me for a name I think that the Rhaenyech potter just the position will end up that the fella from Brighton might well get it because he isn't 62 and the luck in that it's saying someone has got to be in charge at Bramley Mo in three years so I'm going to say the youth aspect then might come into it but in order to do that you are going to have to have a lot of falling over and bloody knees and tears before bedtime and all of those analyses you can apply to it that will be a bumpy ride but I think in order to be in the position of management you've got to look medium to long term and I think he might well come into it for that but if you're asking me personally he doesn't really ring my bells to be honest with you okay there you go it's only to be long wind we are all confused and we are discussing things and you're both right if it's that list then why not? it's got to be why would you not want to do that because there's nothing better on that list in fairness to them though we have to say whoever it is I don't want to say any names but whoever it is they might in the next couple of days reveal a plan which we can all understand so that's a caveat we don't know that but right now two days at this point it worries me and I genuinely feel like we're lost as a family we need leadership we need leadership not just in the dugout this is bigger it's got to speak to your brand if you're going to talk not brands it's got to speak to who you are Nilsat is nice and optimum while it is not nice and optimum at the moment there's nothing like nice and optimum it's anti-optimism right now it genuinely is it's Latin but it's genuinely true so I need someone to sort it out I think we all do mate I think we're all doing see what happens there you go let us know what you think in the comments section below who is your choice give us the reasons any of the managers we've discussed let us know what your thoughts are I'm sure you will anyway and hopefully we get some direction very quickly we can get behind whoever it is and we can move forward because it is a little bit it is a little bit of a head scratcher at the moment a little bit of a head scratcher it's a really big head scratcher big thanks to Dave, big thanks to Keith see you later