 Hi Stacey. How are you? Okay. Nice to see you. You too. I'm working but I can multitask. Listen in. Hi Craig. Hi. How are you both? Good. Greetings. Hi Jerry. Jerry. Hey Stacey. How's everybody this bright and cloudy day? Oh, it's sunny here. Really? Beautiful here. It's dark outside. It's evening where you are, right? Yeah, 11. 11 p.m.? I didn't realize that. Wow. We are your late night show. The Late Late Show. Eric, what's the new UN? I forget. It's like an hour west of Philadelphia. So I'm in Pennsylvania. King of Prussia. It's around there. Yeah, actually. Close there. Cool. I don't know why but every time I think of western Pennsylvania or central Pennsylvania, I think of Bumpin' Hollow and what was the name of the painter who did Bumpin' Hollow? He was painting the Pennsylvania hillsides. I can tell you in a sec. Famous American painter. And I'm in my head. I'm Thomas Hart Benton. Okay. Thomas Hart Benton. He's not in your head. Yeah, he's in my outside head too. In your external brain. Yeah, exactly. And in fact, I'd added there's an article titled, I learned about Bumpin' Hollow and undergrad in my art history course, but there's a New Yorker article titled, The Bumpin' Hollow of Thomas Hart Benton, which I will put in the chat and hopefully is still a live link. I know when you drive west in Pennsylvania, you go through mountains. Like you're tunneling. You see these hills all above and you see the windmills on top. Yep, yep. I haven't been through that area. I went to Penn so I was in Philly for a couple years. It's very interesting. So I lived in two cities that were very similar to each other, pretty close to each other. I lived in Philly and St. Louis. So Philadelphia is on the Skookle River and I guess the Delaware. And on the eastern shore of Philadelphia, there is a city that is part dangerous, which is Canada, New Jersey. So St. Louis is on the Mississippi River and then on the eastern side is East St. Louis, which is very dangerous. So both cities have a main line that kind of in St. Louis that runs straight west into Ladoo and fake French named, actually they may not be fake French name, but I think they were because the French had the middle of the country. But the sort of the Ritzy suburbs went west and in Philadelphia, they're definitely fake named, you know, like Bryn Mawr and so forth heading up northwest through the main line, but then more interesting, both cities had a height restriction. So, so in Philadelphia, there was the gentleman's agreement that for many, many years, nobody could build the building taller than the hat on the statue of Billy Penn that was on City Hall at Market and 14th. Nice. And what was his name, the guy who violated it was the brother, Rouse, Charles Rouse or something like that will Rouse will Rouse finally built the building that broke the gentleman's agreement and since it wasn't a law nobody could like, like go punish him. I understand the city at the skyline of Philadelphia looks like other cities sort of skylines kind of boring, but they had a limit and then in St. Louis. There was that same Rouse is Columbia Missouri Rouse. Yes, no will Rouse is his brother. Okay. Pretty sure gonna kind of fact check it in a second but then in St. Louis there was a height. There was a height, I think restriction where like in the Washington DC you can't build higher than the capital and St. Louis you couldn't build higher than the arch, and it graduated out from the arch. And I used to live within eyesight of the arch I could see the arch from my terrace basically, and it would change like in whether it would be beautiful and then if a police car was sitting underneath it would shine and glow and red and it's really beautiful but but the cities were remarkably sort of similar in that way. They were also pretty racially segregated there were sort of neighborhoods that were really quite divisive but what they weren't in neither of them was a very well integrated city. Super interesting for everybody who's just arrived I'm comparing Philadelphia and St. Louis. I think they did in Philadelphia that there's thousands of murals that are painted. So, art, they got artists to paint all kinds of scenes on buildings. Pretty cool. I'm sorry. Go ahead. Yeah, one of my favorite perspectives on building height in cities is from Jim Keen, who was my boss when I was in Palo Alto he was a city manager and previously been city manager Berkeley, and kind of a Renaissance guy and he said in his mind that the maximum height of a building in a city should be that if you're on the top floor and you stick your head out the window you can have a conversation with somebody on the street without shouting. And that puts you to about three to four stories. Yeah, yeah, not much telling that. And if you and if you walk through cities you know that that's about the size that feels good maybe five if you push it, you know, think Paris. And in the movie Rocky he was shouting to this neighbor. Hey. So it goes so many interesting stories about about urban design and all these kinds of things Michael that you want to jump in. I was going to say that the Soho area in New York has, I think it's a six or had a six floor limit, which was varied to eight. People began buying the airspace from the six story buildings that weren't using their seven to eight floors that were now permissible. And so now they're taller things going up around but it's still pretty low still surprisingly low. I love that. And then there's there's interesting stories about the building and freeways you know the interstate highway system coming in there's the freeway rebellion of Portland is one of the cities that didn't go along so well. One of the really interesting things about Portland's history is that at some point they use some of the money that was destined for freeways to fund the building of streetcars again, because then there's the great American speaker conspiracy which is one of my favorite sour notes in American history. And I'm hearing my voice. There we go. It was you. So has that raised your hand if you've seen the movie who framed Roger Rabbit. Even way back when it's based on facts. It's actually based on facts. So, Firestone General Motors, Philip 66 and Mack truck wanted to sell bus fleets the cities, and by 1910 or 20. All major American cities had light rail inexpensive light rail for a nickel you can basically ride from out of town into town reading a newspaper the light rail systems were really really good all across the US. So these four companies collude they were found later to have violated antitrust and were penalized but by that time, by that time as you'll see the rails were torn up. So they colluded and they created a company called National City lines they put a puppet in charge of it, and National City lines proceeded to buy city light rail systems then it proceeded to slowly turn down service like, you know, we're going to go every 20 minutes not every 15 minutes or every 10 minutes, and then they would say well that last stop isn't being served and they pretty quickly they started cutting back service and they said this is uneconomical, and they shut down the lines and they burned the real cars. And once you've burned the rail cars like these are perfectly functional cars. And if you go to San Francisco, they have antique rail cars from all across the country and we used to live on the end Judah. And that's the depot for the antique cars was at the end of the end Judah line. So at the end of the day all of we would see all the old cars come past on their way, you know on the way for rest in the evening. But, but then we sort of tore up all these really excellent light rail systems and now it's like putting in a subway system with the boring company what just amazing how capitalism bends history to its, to its needs when it, when it wants to. Where in middle Pennsylvania, Eric, I joined a little late. Oh, yeah I live in Downingtown it's about an hour west of Philly. I'm familiar with Altuna and the Mennonites and areas kind of the farming areas. Yeah, was the Lancaster. Yeah. It's beautiful. The beautiful part country. Let's do a round of chickens. Eric, do you want to check in and let's go. Yeah, I'm multitasking, but I'm going to listen in. So, yeah, two weeks ago I was able I met Ted Nelson, he was at the vintage computer Federation exhibit. So, yeah, I did an exhibit about Ted, and he saw it and he loved it. So we had some time to talk with him. So, on an earlier call we were brainstorming, well, could we take some of Ted's ideas forward today. And, yeah, so I actually I asked him that question and I had a list of his ideas, and to think about, yeah, can he prioritize them. And his answer is no, I can't prioritize them I don't know what to do anymore. He needs it all or nothing. I mean the web developed a certain way it became what it is because of many different factors. And he tried, he had some business issues and just getting volunteers to do programming was tricky. So, I mean it's up to us if we want to do anything with his ideas. I'm just thinking about the new the new Jerry's brain. That's possible we could incorporate some zigzag and some other stuff tumblers if we wanted to go down that architecture and build it ourselves. But I'm sure there's other products out there. So thanks I'm just going to listen for most of the time. And I think I've met Ted Nelson once or twice and listen to him talk and things like that. He's definitely a man on a mission. His mission definitely didn't overlap well with the architecture of the inner tubes. And I have a brief but amusing story because back in the day when I first became a tech industry trends analyst. Here's Ted Nelson in my brain. I visited projects and do, which was the company that was going and it was founded in 1960 deepers. And so I probably visited them in 8088 87 somewhere in there I think. And I met Roger Gregory, who to this day is the geekiest geek I've ever met. And I wrote an article about them that I don't have links here because it way predates my use of the brain. And in the article I said projects and do well should have an offer in the market in two years. But I didn't and then imagine my surprise. Was it one of these articles. Imagine my surprise to find an article recently where projects and it was still alive. And two years from shipping. So I think it might, I will post this link so that we can see whether it's this article but sort of I've, I've seen way too many Allison do you mind muting. And I've seen way too many sort of really big ideas kind of come and go and I make it and then a few ideas few really big ideas like Google is a big idea, just caught on. If people are interested in like exploring his ideas just to send me contact me somehow either in the tools and technology on matter most I've been putting a few links in there. So, thanks very much. Fun story anybody else with stories or thoughts about Ted Nelson and actually Gil is asking New Jersey brain. I think the reference here is that one of the one of the goals of OGM broadly is to get me out of the brain and into some new tool, and probably not one one new tool to rule them all, but rather a polyglot tool a tool that that can morph inside a space so that it acts like the brain sometimes and it acts like kumu sometimes, and it acts like a database look up sometimes and those sorts of things. And we don't clearly don't have it yet, but we're, we've been we've been working for figuring out how that was in my Allison Allison Allison Allison could you meet. I'm so sorry. Thanks. Yeah so I didn't know that the purpose of OGM but it's cool for me, except that if we're doing that then we're not getting you out of the brain we're getting all of us out of something. That's correct. And the goal was to get me into a shared collaborative thinking environment that was the goal. And it so happens that I'm addicted to the brain other people are addicted to other tools. And I wanted to meet in the middle, like what and even what does that middle look like is a really interesting question. And then Michael's here with an actual platform called factor. And he's sort of been here, participating in a variety of different calls and, and so we're trying to figure out what role does a company like factor play in this ecosystem, including how does factor make a living while helping everyone else build sort of information Commons idea Commons knowledge art whatever we want to call it. I mean Michael if you want to, if you want to jump in and riff on that per second. I would just say, you know, on a theoretical level. The, you know the avoidance of the one platform to rule them all notion has a lot to do with interoperability and the idea that if people had, you know, their, their knowledge. It's kind of a brain portable to another platform when they wanted to view it in a different way, like, you know, I want to, I want to look at this graphically. And, you know, I want to see images for everything. And that that's one platform is really good for that. And I want to see the same stuff as a sequential selection of links and another platform is good for that. And it's really without the ambition to do everything the brain does factor is an example of, you know, we want to take granular information and give user control of how to, how to relate it and, and who to share it, whether to make it completely private, you know, single single player mode or, or to do things as a group, or in public. I was I was in, I attended a mapathon, a virtual mapathon that happened over last weekend, a Friday, Friday at 3pm Pacific until Saturday at 3pm Pacific, and just attended a few sessions in there and one session. I sort of fell into because I couldn't find a session I was looking for had a fellow who was sharing a bunch of models, sort of information models. And he was using who what when why where as the framework, and for each one of them he had put up pretty interesting sort of been diagrams and other kinds of aspects. And then earlier in the day in a different session. Some people with projects had come through and they had put postage for their projects for where they belong on his conceptual diagrams. I was sitting thinking, wouldn't it be cool if our data was sort of marked up and if we have met rich metadata that that give us extra kind of dimensionality or richness to the information. And then like like a view master when you click it kind of rotates the next image, if you could then sort of pick, pick how you want to see your data. And right now I want to see it like Hans Rosling sees data with bubbles moving over time, but click. I don't want to see actually who is which of these projects is spiritual which of these projects is is entrepreneurial and which of these projects is public service or something like that and with with like the project scattered in that space or something. And if we had rich data collection and separate data from from the tools, then you can start to flip to the tool that works for what you're trying to say at the moment. And I don't know if anybody's doing that I know that there's some really powerful tools like Tom Sawyer and are in a couple others, many of which are open source, but there's that are specifically a statistical package. So what you can do in our is statistical and out rich, beautiful varied statistical analysis, as long as that's what it is. I don't know that it's any good at conceptual diagrams and other kinds of things but I'm wondering, like, who's doing this and could, could these tools start to play together because we're getting better and better data out there with lots of metadata. Anybody seen this done this thought about this wanted this who I've wanted this. Oh, excellent me too. After my after my living between worlds webinar yesterday somebody commented that that one of the things they like about what I do is that it feels like I'm holding a beautiful stone in my hand and I'm constantly kind of turning it and looking at it from different different sides and angles and talking about that and just kind of an ongoing rotational encounter with the complexity of it all and that's what this bunch of folks here does. It's not going to get a lot of first stone tools that let us do that to continue to query in different ways from different perspectives with different outcomes with different correlations, absolutely. And it's not easy to envision that much less do it. That's the interesting thing. Do you want to do you want to just give us an example or riff on that a little bit because I feel the same way. The riff on the tools know I want to riff on what chance the balance topic about diagnosis so so I forget who's who first said this but prescription without diagnosis in medicine would be considered malpractice. And yet we all do that a lot in the world you know here's the answer to what's the undefined problem so his approach to that is is to is a three level interrogation one is what's going on. What's actually the state of things now and that will incorporate some of our frustration and dissatisfaction but describe me what's so now, how did we get here, and then what is keeping things stuck. And that's been his approach to large enterprises, logistical problems, operational issues design. I don't know if we've done that it's it's clearly here anecdotally in the background all the time. But I wonder if we have an explicit diagnosis of what we think is lacking broken missing not serving us that drives our design initiatives toward whatever is we kind of do. Or are we just going to be more organic about it the way that we know. My own take on that is that when I see when you say explicit. There's two different ways I think of it and there's probably six different ways everybody else thinks about it. One way is that there's a formalism that becomes the structure with which from which you build out the plan and the other one is that there's a detailed plan for what you're building that there's a spec, a design spec. And I had this conversation a couple days ago, which is, I've seen a lot of tools that begin with some kind of abstract framework and that limits what the tool can do. It limits what people can do with the tools, maybe the better thing I can say. And so I'm really interested in sort of emerging into a tool that does lots of different things. And what the reason I love the brain is that I only use the bare minimum features in it, and those give me an expressive capacity that I find really powerful. But I then use it for a variety of different things that somebody using a formal structure would be like hey that's wrong. You're not allowed to do that or we, we said this was only going to be an entity relationship model so you must. So every node must be a noun and and must have a verb relationship with another noun or something like that it's like, we're not doing that. And in not doing that in offroading it's actually far more powerful and expensive for me so. So I'm not sure that the abstract I think the abstract frameworks often limit what we can do. They can add it layered in later. They can add power to what we do so what I loved about the models I saw on Saturday in that zoom session was that, wow, I would love to see data separated in that been diagram way or whatever else it was. I don't know how to do that today and I just love to see that but I don't want to start from there. The other way is like let's build out let's build out in the traditional software world, a big spec. I can give you use cases for what I'm doing and my use cases will wind up being different from a bunch of other people's use cases so I'm not sure how to get to a really good complete spec. So, anyone else who thinks, thinks has a better plan please, please jump in. Well, my plan is to basically do research into the nature of semiotics and basically how a sign as an irreducible triad of a sign vehicle something that is existing and physically in the world is interpreted to point to an object. It's not a whole other thing, but when the 16th century. Thomas epistemology, what is the primordial reality of a relation. Very, you know, who scientific recovering the semiosis of the Latins from the 16th century. But basically, starting from the bottom and working up and doing the science and thinking. And it won't be done in my lifetime and I'm fine with that. But that's what I tried to do. Go ahead. Just a scratch on one piece of what you said when you said, Thomas, I think you meant Tom ism as in St. Thomas Aquinas and some logic. Yes, give us a taste of that. What does it mean, what does it mean to think that way. Pope Ratziner, Pope, there or the Cardinal Ratzinger Ratzinger became, you know, a pope, basically said that the era of substance is over. What do we now know that relation is as primordial as substance, and we are now entering into the era of relation. So there's, there's a, there's a hint there's a pointer there. But basically, the essence of how we know things as relation. It's, it's not a thing. And the study of how relations make meaning is currently semiotics and bio semiotics is just absolutely fascinating right now. It's driving both work in biology and semiotics. And it's obscure. I will, I will admit. I'm going to put a absolutely fantastic Nora Bateson bio semiotics 121 gathering in the chat and I, I highly suggest listening to a number of the other talks in that conference, you know, it's not for me here to basically go deep into that specifically. It takes the shift in mental position that rather than energy and matter being what life is, life is communication, communication and meaning start with life. Life starts with meaning and communication. And it's a big shift, and it's an unfamiliar shift to, you know, most scientists but you know, basically, experiences real communication is real, and they're scientifically amenable to understanding. Mark, thank you. That's really helpful. And interesting that you went to energy and matter because I was about to jump in and say, gosh, this is a little bit like physics where matter is actually energy trapped in fields. And the problem is we pay attention to fields. We pay attention to the matter more than we pay attention to the fields. That's sort of historically a problem and then David Bohm the philosopher invented an experimental language called Rio mode which was a verb centric language, because his critique of sort of Western languages was that we were noun centered, and that if you shifted to a verb centric language that changed how you saw things. And then I can kind of hop and skip to other places and in 2010 I started something called a relationship economy expedition. One of the pieces was that what matters are the relationships the bindings the thing kind of, I think very parallel to what you just said Mark, and, and I have another video that I'll find and put here which is why I do what I do and I shot this a long time ago. And it has a little. I can do this in a minute I would love to put I've never I don't think I've ever described this in a no GM calls I'd love to describe it. A long time ago I read or heard that live nets was probably the last polymath the last personal live who might have known all the disciplines of his day. And because we write women out of history who knows, they were very likely some polymath women we haven't heard about and there's other polymaths you may prefer like bacon and others, and pick your favorite polymath, but I but I pictured, I pictured live that's sitting in a field and all the disciplines start to scatter. And the disciplines haven't grown so far that he can't actually go out to the edge of literature and poetry mathematics, what it what becomes medicine alchemy all of that, and learn it all and he helped co invent the calculus he was a great mathematician. And he and Isaac Newton basically invented the calculus around the same time called the different things. And then, then this ring kind of explodes and no human can learn everything that happens in every discipline and then the disciplines form up, and they form walls and barriers between them and the mathematicians. Humanities people, and the lake has allocated and you know and the counselors hate the waiters and the lake has alligators for anybody and any of you who know camp for nada. But, but this becomes very competitive and the way you make your mark in a discipline you kind of have to pick a discipline and join a discipline, and the way you make your mark as you pick a fractal edge of the leading edge of the discipline and try to say something that bends the course of your somehow. And then that's what we do for a long time until people start doing the transdisciplinary thing. And anyway, one day I realized, what if liveness is actually standing on a sphere. Instead of in a plane or a pizza where these things are separating and they're always going to get too big to understand. What if he's standing on a sphere. And what made me think that was, I'm an amateur I'm a dilettante I sniff it lots of flowers. I'm thinking that the language in cognitive science and neural networks was really damn similar to linguistics and semiotics was really damn similar to other kinds of places. And it seemed like if you went and talk to the leading edge thinkers and lots of disciplines they were getting closer together. They might never agree to do anything, but it seemed like they were getting closer together. Right. And so so that was actually heartening because the idea that knowledge is just exploding and will never be able to wrap our heads around it is a bit a bit too big. Knowledge is more holographic and more echoey and more resonant and kind of like there's lots of things that we have in common. That's super interesting. Right. And that beg the question and I'll finish this little analogy story. That beg the question what what sits at the other end over here like well okay if things are converging then to what. And here I borrow. Kind of a metaphorical explanation I borrowed in and young from Taoism. And I said, in and young at their most fundamental are meant to be held in creative balance and it's not that all men are young and all women are in is that there are these sort of feminine masculine bright dark active passive outward inward kinds of energies that are complimentary and that a healthy entity whether it's a person or a family or culture or a civilization. Needs to have that yin and yang and creative tension. And my own amateur thesis was that we have been suffering from a young overdose for somewhere between 300 and 3000 years. So 300 years is the Industrial Revolution 3000 years is written language per Leonard Slain's book the alphabet versus the goddess, whether when and how and whether that happened is a really fun conversation over a couple bottles of wine and a really good meal. I miss Leonard so much Leonard was awesome. I love I love Leonard. I got to meet him briefly he gave a presentation in Marin at the theater, and his daughter is Tiffany slain, who is out and about doing cool things about Shabbat technology Shabbat is one of her riffs right now. So then, so then, what was heartening to me also about this latter piece of my little model here is that I believe that we're in an era right now of rebalancing of the in and young. Because in the 40s 50s 60s 70s 80s, you could barely talk about yen yen was effectively demonized young one and pursuit of scorched earth strategy about yen stamp out this native indigenous wisdom stamp out women like like the persecution of women in the middle and branding of them as witches these were these were the holders of traditional knowledge in Europe, who got killed for for being the bearers of wisdom like really shitty like that like human history is full of full of crap like this. But, but I think we're in an era right now where we're moving towards some kind of reconciliation balancing awareness between these forces, and that part of this big puzzle we're all kind of to on deeply fascinates me. Right, like really fascinates me and I'm hopeful that what that some part of the human population can figure that that back out and can start living in a way that other people are like, Oh, I'll have what they're having. Right, because I think that's that's a good model for change, because right now, the vast majority of humans on earth, I think, see that their kids are going to have a shittier time than they did, and that their grandparents did, and that is causing all sorts of promotion and ruck us all across the earth. It's really a bad thing. So, so that's kind of why I wake up in the morning is that I'm trying to figure out, what does this puzzle look like who's got the right pieces of the puzzle, how do the pieces fit. How do we think about this, what's a way to approach life, so that you can be part of, of fixing the unifying how we think. And so the big fungus that I'm talking about shared cultivation of here is that is, and so your work on semiotics mark I'm hoping will meet these different kinds of ideas in the way that I curate them, and then as Stacy puts things together or points to other things, that fits into the puzzle, and, and lather rinse repeat and we might actually have a useful learning system environment something like that. And I'll hit pause so anybody who wants to jump in. Yeah, I agree what I would point out. Again, another esoteric kind of notion is Bertrand Russell Bertrand Russell's book about Leibniz, and his critique of Leibniz's logic, such that a property for anything say a lemon as you know certain type of property it's yellow it's round it's, it's squishy it can be crushed. These properties are finite, but the relation say of Jerry to lemon is infinite uncountable, unknowable. And this I think is a tragedy when we get to things like RDF, or certain kinds of rational slash logical notions about knowledge and knowing that basically say a lemon is a fruit. Well, hooray, that's great, but you know, there are uncountable lemons from the dawn of lemoning, whenever lemons emerged from Darwinian evolution to lemons in the future. There's infinite lemons, and there's infinite lemonings and there's infinite abundance to the way that we relate to lemons and lemons relate to the rest of the non us. And so that, in addition to the paradox that all knowledge is social, but then again all knowledge is personal are kind of the again weird keys that gosh I would love to and had great conversations with people yesterday and I continue to try to have conversations with anybody here about all this weird stuff because it really takes two or more to try and work this out it's not me sitting in my little alcove trying to figure this out that's going to make it happen. Thanks. Thanks. Anybody else want to put on this. There's also a different slightly different conversation happening in the chat, which I'm happily happy to switch to someone wants to jump in with that. So I think Eric Craig Stacy. So let's go back to the check it's Craig Stacy, and then Wendy. You. I've been geeking out for a couple weeks. I've been geeking out for a couple weeks I. I've been developing and hosting websites on Windows web servers for over 20 years. And then last year's, especially this year. My account has become extraordinarily expensive I've been paying over $250 a month a month. I mean a very powerful hefty web Windows web server with backup and email 250 boxes per domain and absolutely huge bigger than I need now we scaled it up way back when I had hotel software that was that was running very long. So 250 bucks a month for what I'm doing now which is largely altruistic type projects it just became nuts, you know, so I started to look at node JS and Linux. Two weeks ago, I didn't know anything about either of them. So I've spent the last couple of weeks converting the backend of one of my sites to node JS code. And just this morning I bought into a Linux hosting setup company called digital ocean they sell droplets. They define a web server as a droplet. And I've got one four times bigger. In specification wise four times bigger than the Windows web server that I'm going to be departing from for a 10th of the price $24 a month. I'm absolutely gobsmacked. And today, without. I'm well impressed actually with my with my own performance because from knowing absolutely nothing about Linux a couple of days ago, just having read read read read read read. Of course I've been doing this kind of thing for 30 years. So I fired up a Linux box, and then I had a good laugh so I'm looking at this, figuring out how to do it now you can have several node JS websites in one droplet. But to do that you have to install a server, and I'm looking at the name of the server this will give you a giggle Jerry because I'm sure you're familiar. I'm looking at the name of this web server n g i n x and I'm trying to say. There are words and tie, which begin with NG it's quite an Asian thing is a name. Greg. Yeah, we call it we call it engine X. Exactly so I was talking with a friend of mine to this morning to get a little bit help and he said Craig I think it's called engine X. I had to giggle with you know how you can you laugh at your own embarrassment. Of course it's engine X and I'm trying to see me. However, I fired up and I've now got the website running and I got a free. Security certificate for it and I'm well on the way. All I need now is to get a to get node mail node mailer running properly and install a web mail client on the server. And I can ditch that window system and save over 200 bucks a month. So I'm well happy about that so I'm jumping ship Microsoft can stick it where the sun don't shine from now on so I'm very happy about that. Otherwise I've been having some really excellent conversations with the community which is developing around the Center for humane technologies, fundamentals of humane technology course. The course is now launched and there are dozens of people now taking the course, and there are two or three meetings every week that we can, we can join and talk about what's going on. Absolutely super conversations about how social media is affecting people's lives and minds and moods and wants and desires and hatred some. Facebook or whatever you whatever your jam is if, if Facebook is the last thing you see at night, the first thing you see when you wake up in the morning. And it's what you're doing all day long when you should be doing something else walking the dog playing with your kids planting trees you're doing Facebook. I'm thinking that so much human behavior focused in that way is bound to and this is billions of people. Not just an individual it's so important because it's billions of people behaving like this that that human behavior is actually changing it or it must have some effect I fear quite a significant effect on human nature. Repetitive behavior again and again and again and again and again and again and every day for years, billions of people it's got to be changing human nature. So the wonderful thing about this whole concept of humane technology and its desire to reimagine and rebuild remake completely relaunch if possible, social media experience is an exciting opportunity. Since I'm involved, I do like that that field of endeavor and I'm a coder I build websites and I really want really really want to be involved in all it's such a great opportunity to attempt and learn how an attempt to create social media offering social media activities and new reimagined social media, which can steer or can push human nature back in back towards where it was before social media did all its damage. So that's also exciting so yeah, I'm busy and enthusiastic. Sounds like a Craig yeah it sounds like it. I want to push things back to like where before we became consumers. Because that ate our brains as well and I think other people probably have other missions with other words or things that happened to us that for me the consumerization of our lives was extremely damaging and tore the social fabric because if there's no such thing as society as Maggie Thatcher told us, and all we need to do is buy more shit that we don't really need because otherwise the economy stops and everything, you know, grinds to a halt. That is not a civilization. Yeah, entirely right. Sorry Gil go ahead. Sorry if you don't buy more shit the terrorists will have one. Exactly. President. Exactly. Yeah consumerism affected me very strongly as a as a teenager. I was caring about, you know, the color of the neighbors curtains and how new the car is and how nice the garden looks and and okay all these things are nice but they didn't seem important to me the world was the planet was burning 50 years ago when I was a teenager to using that that that term metaphorically. Leopold court wrote a wonderful piece in resurgence magazine I think in the early 1950s about remedial consumption. And he basically asserted that the whole consumption machine is designed to make and fill holes in people. You know, you feel empty you buy shit. And that's the dynamic of the whole thing goes back to Bernays and others. I don't know if you or I or somebody wrote a piece a few years ago, likening consumerism and consumption to tuberculosis. Yeah, called consumption which was the disease that would eat you out from the inside. And here in our world we prize consumption as a highest good. Very strange. I think I just saw goodbye here because here's consumption meant tuberculosis in the 19th century, basically. Yeah, I'm quite sure I wrote something about it and I can't find it anywhere. If you do please post it back. I will. More money. Thank you. And I've got a longer queue here than normal but Stacy Wendy Hank and then she Moan and Allison who are having a great conversation in the chat bring you into the, and the conversation so Stacy. Well, what an interesting conversation. So I just wanted to say I watched a great documentary yesterday it was. What was it where's the outrage corporate welfare, and it was followed by like, you know, two people answering questions and a moderator. And I just want to say two things about it. So there were three case studies the second case study which started in the middle was all about the farm bill. And which I wanted to bring here I was hoping class was going to be here because it was really easy to understand and just the kind of, you know, media that I'm always looking to be able to share. But what I found interesting and it wasn't until I sat down before that I was multitasking, but they had a way that you could create clips. It said clip it right here. But I know that before I would have used it. Um, and I also reviewed a documentary together. So you've got to watch with other people which I think is like the future. The second thing more important is thanks to Pete I connected with Wendy. And that was best part of my day. And Wendy after I read after I read your page. I can't believe the overlap of connections. I mean you recognized it but wow and I saw it. It's like every sentence. And I'm going to just ask that when you get a chance because you came on late. I would love for you to listen to what Mark and Jerry had to say at about the 1130 more. So we can continue that conversation. It's also this call is also recorded so we can clip that or come back to it and replay or watch it offline. That would be great. Oh, that would be great. I'm sure there might be other people that want to continue I have to be honest Mark first, your first comment. I didn't even I really didn't understand what you're talking I really didn't get it was too up there for me, although once I heard whoa I was like all right there's something here. But after Jerry asked you to elaborate. I know that I was right there because I actually thought of Laura Bates and before you said her so I was like okay I got this I want to keep talking and Jerry what you said also fits believe it or not. And it borders on what. Wendy and I were well what I was trying to articulate. And anyway, that's it. I'm happy. Stacy, thank you so much. Let's go Wendy Hank, Simone Allison. Yeah, I feel like I have time to share but trying to connect it to the conversation. First I was away last week so I got a chance to just kind of take a step back and think about all that I'd learned in the last six months doing a lot of listening and curating and talking to people and figuring out kind of what next steps I want to take. So first before I go further I just want to say hi this is my first GM call. Even though I've met quite a few of you and had many side conversations I hadn't been able to actually come to GM, my entrance into meeting most of you has been through originally through Kiko lab. I'm glad to finally make space for our GM. And in all those conversations, the, my background is similar to Stacy and that we, I come from the world of psychology. So my interest came from an original question of why aren't we already already. Why aren't all of us already thriving. Knowing that we have a lot of the answers we need and a lot of the technological technological capabilities, why aren't we using that for the betterment of creating human flourishing. And all these issues about consumerism and advertising and profitability and all that stuff of course are interwoven and why our societies and systems are the way they are. So fast forward, where I think, you know, everyone on this call and everyone that I've been meeting where all the vision is quite similar. The question is, how do we start collaborating on all these pieces we know need to be in play, and do it in a way that they can sync up with each other so that it can all rise together because I think as we're all individually learning if we haven't articulated it fully yet or not is each piece doesn't exist outside of the system. And that's the problem right so if we develop a new economic system that doesn't really work outside of a new government system governments and social order and you know a lot of other things and people wanting to work collaboratively together I mean, so here's where my piece comes in from me I see things visually, and I see the advantage of creating a visual interface that sits on top of a knowledge network to make it easier for people to navigate their way to the information they need the sense and creates knowledge sets in a way that makes sense to people and can ultimately end up being collaborative course that's the pinnacle, and then also eventually allowing people to kind of come into their own sense of a wisdom their own sense of intuitive decision making that involves not only the knowledge that they've curated the information having access to full sets of information. So where am I in my life where am I wanting to go what do I want to do with it how does that all go together for me personally, how do we create a platform like that. So I am to try to take steps there I'm coming up with three initiatives for myself. One is the clam bake project which maybe some of you have heard some about with Michael and Vincent and Jonathan sands in the mix and I think a couple other people, I'm coming into that because that's kind of been on the fringe for me and making that front and center, so that I can start saying okay well, I can't build what I want to build. But if we start there and use it as a proof of concept for how we can get a mapping interface to reduce friction for how people get into a site and through a site to the information that they want or need or is the most helpful. There could be one. So, an interface that proves some sense of greater less friction greater navigability. Is that a word that sounded good to would be working on something that has a proof of concept for scalability, whether it's a free Jerry's brain kind of thing right you have so many nodes and connections already we're not talking about a small subset of data we're talking about a huge amount of data can we take a visual. And then three goals, maybe has to be built on a different platform though so that it can work with free Jerry's brain or maybe it's something we can anyway, and start playing around with the design, so that we know that it has scalability, and can show many things on screen. And then three for me is working with a small subset of people anybody was interested to start talking about what would the optimal design be just for just for design prototype, knowing that the technology may not yet actually implement this design for a host of reasons that I have learned about in the last six months but to at least design it so that we can show other people while we're working on this or working on this, this is where we're actually headed in the end. And so those are for me the three things. Lots of other little things around the edges but that's kind of where I've landed. We'd love feedback. That's, that's really beautiful I think it resonates for lots of us, lots and lots of us. And I'm, I'm really eager to have like a bailing wire toothpicks and scotch tape kind of mockup of what these systems might look like that help us do what you just described just storyboarded I don't care but but, you know, the storyboard turns into wireframe turns into some sample code turns into stuff you can use. And I would love to get us working on on these things together. Go ahead. Where can we do that right now right now what what what tool out of this whole tool set with enable us to just do that live right now ongoing. Well, we've sort of been doing that ongoing for two years now with slow results so Pete has trying has been trying to reinvent the wiki as massive wiki using markdown files because markdown files and put them on a public server like GitHub, you've separated the data from the thing that that claims to be a, you know, some kind of service like a wiki, except not the wiki doesn't behave like a wiki quite yet. Except it could do a whole lot of other things we're trying to fund pieces. Wendy's talking about something as visual. Yes, now you could layer. Yeah, so does not sing to me but you know something that lets me have, you know, in my computer post it's on a wall that I can move around and draw lines between the connects things to and layer in do we have I started to put together I started to do research on all the different things that already exist right tools that already exist, and quickly ran a brand up against some fundamental limitations of each and every single one of them for what I'm imagining. Right, so it maps really well looks really good but you can't edit it or collaborate. You can edit it but it can't scale, and it can't do much of anything else can't import data export data do anything right like each there are pieces, but not all together which is why I landed on. Okay, maybe some proof of concepts let's get something started in a in a range of things that might already be useful to people like free Jerry's brain or. Let's start let's just start with something that's good enough for the moment and iterate and flip platforms but we need to. That's the project clambick and then anyone else who wants to help me visual, you know, I have a very clear this is what's been in my mind for 10 years developing for 10 years that I have yet to fully put on paper with a ui ux person or group of people for two weeks. I know now we could just bang it out because I know, I know what needs to be in that and I know what doesn't need to be in that anymore. Right and that would be for me the sandbox that to me is going to be my my play space for a while, as we iterate on that. That to me is where there could be a lot of back and forth and, but I think until I at least get my thoughts into the design, it would be hard for me, I want to say this differently. What's in your hand, I need to thank you, I need to externalize it's in my head before I, I yet again, try to compare it to something that exists, because what happens every time I do that is I lose a little bit of my vision every time I dive deep into what exists. And I don't longer want to lose my vision. So I want to get that out and then let's hack it to pieces. I don't care about that but I need to get my thing out first. If you want to comment and I'll pass it to Craig. When you click on a link on any average web page in the web web universe, you send a request to a server that says, Oh, you need all these piece parts and those piece parts can exist on servers all across the inner tubes, your browser doesn't give a damn. And that server request says hey send everything over to Jerry's browser over here, your browser then assembles them, and wherever it doesn't get a piece from one of the servers that says oops image missing here which doesn't happen that often anymore. This thing is working really really well, but anyone of the little nuggets can be just a markdown file or a hypertext file or whatever, living any place on anybody's server that's publicly available. If you click on a node in my brain, it goes into proprietary little data store that's attached to the brain. I want to click on a node, the same way a web page is created, so that the nuggets live on servers all across the inner tubes, and are rich with metadata, and are living in a distributed that the reason I keep harping on separating the data from the tools is that then we start to be able to play and explore and riff and customize because I happen to like some weird things about the brain that other people like I don't like that but I want this other thing. And Wendy you could have your version of all singing all dancing and it could cooperate with my version of all singing all dancing if a, we can separate the data from the apps, and be we can create kind of a sandbox, where the apps can play together, because I'm really interested in that shared space where you're using the tool that you love most that helps you represent in, you know, information and insights, not not just like, not just like a directory where you're using good work in the world that's interesting. But but what are the insights and what, what did this particular entry entity actually think they were going to do, what went wrong what went right, what you know, what are the lessons learned and what have they achieved and how do we, how do we then copy that repo, and then improve on it and then feedback and give them a poll request for, hey, we saw what you did that was awesome and we've improved on it what do you think that process socially multiplied a million fold gets us somewhere really interesting. Does that make sense. Craig over to you in the booth in the very distant booth where it's really late like it's midnight now. Yeah it is. No it's 11 now so I was I was I thought it was 11 only started sorry it's 11 now yeah. Whiteboards, I can't speak, knowledgably or even very intelligibly intelligently about good night, my wife's going to that about in this conversation but I am aware that I have seen in collaborative whiteboards as web pages in browsers with several users doing. Yeah, but I think it's I think they're text based and they're just sending requests posting stuff up to a web server and the pages rendering them there and that can be saved but having done some work with WebRTC I'm aware that there are interactive whiteboards, which are purely graphical. Where people are sharing a whiteboard, peer to peer over over WebRTC connections. I'm aware that that exists are no expert on them but I know that that exists. And of course the results of the, the interaction can be saved. Otherwise I keep thinking that surely this requires that we figure out how to get data out of all these places where it all these repos where it where it lives. We have Jerry's brain or the brain app, right and explore everything in JSON objects or something and collect them somewhere in some central API. We have to do that for for every place that hold is holding valuable data. We have an export of my brain into a bucket of JSON objects, but we haven't really sucked it into factor. We're playing with it trying to bring it into MX. Pete wants to import into massive but needs some time and budget to do so. Like we're actually sort of stuck on the sandbar of trying to do that because I'd like to use my brain data as sourdough starter for this larger fungus to totally mix metaphors like fungus and starters like she pretty close. But but so interestingly, this conversation today this last hour has described kind of our fun struggle for the last 18 months to try to figure out what this is how it works and to prototype it and we're not, we're not at that stage yet and I'm dying to get to that stage I want to play with tools. I really want to shift into a new set of tools that lets us play together. And just it's like, it's like, you've got you've got like, like a Peter totter and I've got sort of a working swing, and someone else has got a sand box, and they're not in the same neighborhood, and we can't actually play together. So, yeah, John has to John has to book you shortly I'd love for him to check in before I go back to the normal queue so john if you'd like to, to step in. Okay, thank you. Yes, so I am in Maine at a, as part of a family reunion. And this picture, I probably blocking my that's me and my brother and sister in law and Mr, whatever your son, sunspot or what, this is the Arcadia solar farm. The only thing about this is, you know, it's this is main we're halfway up the coast is not, not what you'd think of as ideal solar territory. And in fact my brother's house, not a good house to install solar panels on. But this is a, this is a B Corp. This is that you can buy a share. You buy a share. And you get, you know, I mean, I think my brother bought 500 kilowatts hours per year for 20 for 15 or 20 years. And then you get it, you know, and but now it has to come to the grid so you have to have either a cooperative utility or a utility that has been persuaded that it had better be cooperative or it's going to be in more trouble. But the thing works. And, you know, the, the, the objections about land use I mean they're real but this one is over a brownfield, you know, there's, there's a lot of there's toxic waste dumps there's a lot of places where you could put these things. Hey, great new use for super fun sites. Right. And it's also more efficient. I mean the thing gets covered with snow, you know, but so it's covered with snow. Efficiency goes down to zero, but the net efficiency over time is predicted calculated to be 85% because the snow doesn't stay on these things that the angle they're at and if you have to do maintenance on them, the fact that they're all in one place, a lot easier the co op can, you know, budget to have somebody get the snow off, and they're actually going to have a sheep. Eating the, the invasive plants that are underneath this thing that are, you know, that would have a tendency to grow and block the solar so a lot of interesting ideas, not, not, you know super breakthrough technology but but a way around a couple of bottlenecks that we have already all referred to in the in the talks. So that's my check in. I really like the conversation about finding the tools I agree with what a lot of you are saying it's a great conversation I really look forward to a graphic tool I mean the kind of things you're all talking about Gil and everybody's talking about these kind of things. And yeah just something that works and gets us started will be great. I'm looking forward to it I can't wait. But I do have to go because we're leaving where we are now and heading south for the next meeting so. Happy trails enjoy your travels and your family that sounds that sounds like a lot of fun. Alright. Is there a thread for that subject in the matter most which subject. The magic tool. The magic tool. Well, sorry. So yes there's several different threads. There's maps and mapping. There's build OGM, which is more about the whole ecosystem. And I'm forgetting a couple, but if not if there isn't one that's well enough focused on on this let's go start a new one, but if someone wants to scan through the matter most channels that you're on and see which ones are most Yeah, just like to be kept to be able to stay abreast of developments because it's an area that interests me and I may be able to make a contribution at some point. Awesome, especially now that you're off of Windows servers. So I'm happy to be in the conversation. I was just, I think maps and mapping is a good spot. Maps and mapping yeah. Yeah, I'll check in there. Thanks for the channel that I that I think I would naturally go to for this. Thanks. Cheers. Let's go Hank Shimon Allison. Hank, nice to see you. Hey, it's nice to see you to Jerry nice to see everybody else. It's been a while things have been pretty pretty busy over here at. I mean personally and well specifically at work, you know q for us just busy for us but it was nice to. See this chunk of time for you on my calendar and know that I could just kind of jump and actually like put my toe back into the stream here because it's always fun and I mean I, I think I'm always amazed that a lot of the things that I think about are mirrored in the comments that you guys are making. Which is just, I don't know. It's just kind of cool right to like jump in and hear all that stuff so on that note, I'm going to have to leave soon so I'm going to do one of those check ins where like, I say a couple things respond to a couple things and then can't participate in the conversation that happens after. So we'll see what happens but on the note on the notion of like tools. I think it's, you know, it's something that we've talked about specifically in this group really since like day one almost right it's like, you know how do we design a system or a tool or sweet of tools that kind of help us collectively express and explore. You know, mine this for harvest this this wonderful garden of thoughts that we that we cultivate. And I think that one of the things that I've run into in both my conversations and attempts to put it into practice is that I don't know if this is the right way to characterize it but there seems to be almost like this. If we create something new in order to really get good at using it, there has to be some level of expertise that goes into using the tool that only a few people get to right, which immediately creates one of those walls where it's kind of like okay. We start with this vision of creating this place where like theoretically everybody can come in and just start to play. And then we then like create almost this third party that then this person has to interact with which creates another communication barrier which is just kind of like restarts a conversation over right. And that isn't highlight or to harp on the utility of such a such an action or such a desire or project. It's really just to kind of I guess reflect out loud like that's kind of some of the stuff that I'm seeing. Obviously I think it's something we're all we're all kind of trying to solve for here in in ways but it's still interesting to kind of try to hold those two ideas in balance right like how do you create the system but also create it in a way that like allows these, for lack of a better term right third parties to exist, but exist in a way that still integrates with the way that other people talk and communicate. Which is, I guess a problem will have for a little while. The second thing is that I was I too was thinking about this idea of consumerism and social media and etc right and like reached some of the same. I don't want to say conclusions or insights but for right now we will that we're reflected here, and then I had to kind of turn around and like asked and I'm just kind of at the beginning of this thought so I'll go back and look at the recording to see if you guys take any of these farther or further is like, I'm like, okay, is consumerism bad or is it convincing people that they have to consume certain things to enhance their human nature is bad right like it's social media bad or is social is the fact that social media has been used in a way that like incentivizes us or highlights this those negative aspects of our human nature bad right. And I don't know those are kind of more like, I don't, maybe philosophical questions I don't even know but you know in how is that reframing the problem is that are we still talking about the same, the same thing there when we asked the question a little bit differently. I don't really know. It's something that again that I just that I just been thinking about. Before this so was really just to kind of highlight like, hey, it was cool to jump into the conversation here other people basically say the same thing. So anyway, that's my check in. It's great to see you guys again and Wendy nice to nice to see you. And just, just see this as like the movie Iran or Rashomon it's like, there are many of us here, each of us has our tail and our background and we're trying to work through the same information. Maybe if we're lucky we meet in the middle. And if we're really unlucky we get like, he was a thief. He's the hero. Oops. That's kind of happening in the public sphere right like we're getting, we're getting sort of intentionally divergent stories about the same evidence that we're looking at, or ignoring evidence that we're looking whatever. What you pointed to is like really important. Wendy. Oh yeah so just to react to Hank. And it's one of those like don't throw the baby out with the bathwater thing. You know, I think we've, we've learned a lot and I think there's so much to say and from a perspective of social psychology and and and human thinking and human habits. And to me it's the original goal of Facebook the original goal of the internet, the original goal of a lot of these are people coming together going let's do something great. Let's do something better than what we have. I mean, where it starts to go right is in the how we get there. Right and, and so many of our systems are set up to reward the things that we don't want. So when that's taken to the extreme, then we end up with a whole array of influences that we don't want on society. So taking Facebook as an example right idea of connecting people's fabulous I have used it for that I've connected with people I never thought I had a lot of benefit in my life, however, all the algorithms have been written to make a profit off of advertising, and they have gotten extremely good at reducing friction for engagement you put those two things together and you're now literally to someone's point from earlier when it was craigs. We, we, we are now patterning our behavior based on one outcome alone. That becomes the problem. Right and so the how we got there took us on an event on a path that wasn't healthy for anyone, and now is run amok. So how to me that how becomes an essential component of whatever we build next. Thank you. Let's go Simone Allison Tony Gil Michael. Yeah, it's been a very fascinating conversation for me. I don't want to select touch on everything that resonated with me just a few of the things that I'm working on. To Wendy it's nice to meet you I'm actually a psychiatrist so it seems like we have a psychological kind of subgroup here, and I totally agree with a lot of the observations, especially the idea of flourishing and thriving and as a population, what drives my work is exactly that, and it's tied to going back to first principles which are essentially how do we create within ourselves as a society, and a framework that allows us to achieve what the founders, the declaration of independence is all about, which is the role of government is essentially the happiness of the people. So whether it's a matter of thatcher, or, you know, like Reagan, you know blaming government. How is it that we reintroduce that idea that should be our kind of north star. And that's what I'm working on. To achieve that you have a number of things that you have to take into account. I think that what's missing in these conversations is an overriding paradigm that really allows us to think at those terms. I've been working with a paradigm called salutogenesis, which essentially is the creation of health. How do we think about the challenges that we have, not as pathology so for example, Facebook. How do we think about Facebook, from the point of view perhaps like Wendy was saying, starting out about connecting people, rather than the pathology that's associated with it. So, in that regard by the way I came across a book that just got published the last month system error where big tech went wrong, and how we can reboot. I don't know if you are familiar with it. But the interesting thing about this book is that it was written by three Stanford professors who teach probably more computer science students that will eventually create these algorithms than anybody else. And the thing that they put forth, essentially one is a philosopher, one is a computer scientist, and one is a political science person. So what they put forth ideas about how to reclaim, you know, digital technology, in terms of the public good, what struck me and what I really like about this book is they start out talking about Aaron Schwartz. I don't know how many of you know Aaron Schwartz, but essentially Aaron Schwartz was all about how to make digital technology better. He was one of the founders of Reddit, you know, like collective comments and things of that kind. So the first part of the book actually is devoted to him contrasting him with those people that decide that their kind of life mission is going to be to create apps to beat parking tickets. And the question is, and Aaron Schwartz actually has in my mind, the formula of how to move forward, how to select work collaboratively, collaboratively technology people philosophers expert domain domain experts, and user interface people and things of that kind. I've been actually trying to merge Aaron Schwartz's kind of conceptualization of the role of technology. Obviously he's just one of many that you don't hear about as much, plus solutogenesis, which is the concept that essentially talks about what creates well being and flourishing. And according to that understanding flourishing and well being is actually caused by people's sense of coherence. And if any of you had looked at the New York Times article about liberals versus conservatives, whether they are happier or not. Essentially it's all about coherence it's about how to make sense of the world. That's not the only part. The other part is not just making meaning, but feeling that you're able to act on whatever sense of meaning that you have. And to the point I think that was raised during kind on the chat. You know, in terms of economic trauma and other traumas. The problem is in my mind that so many people feel marginalized, alienated, and not able to act on their essentially destroyed coherent worldview, which leads to anger, with, you know, people that are authoritarian I mean I can get into a discussion if anyone wants offline. So the question is how to provide tools to allow people to have more meaning in their lives. And part of it is giving them tools that they can engage locally in their communities. Another one of my projects is the okia epidemic, because so much of the complexity of it is on a local level people feel very marginalized. The question is like right now we're 22 years into it supposedly. And yet, there were community meetings in 1999 and West Virginia, but yet they were not able to change the system. So where is the power within the system. So with that you need complexity theory. So my approach. And again I find, you know that at some point collaboration is important, but laying out a framework and a structure is very very important. So I've actually shared a couple links. Obviously I have a lot more. If anyone is interested in offline, you know, learning more about it I'd be certainly happy to talk about it. So having a paradigm that drives the tools that drives the conversation that allows us to spend time is really important and for me the time frame is 2026, which is when we're celebrating the 250th anniversary of the declaration of independence. So how is it that by then we can go back to first principles. Shimon, thank you. That's a really rich. That's a really rich set of ideas you put on the table. I just want to draw out something you said a moment ago because I have solute genesis in my brain and when you said coherence. I went to coherence. And for example, just as an example, under coherence I found and remembered because I didn't remember having put this in my brain. It's a complicated management of meaning CMM, which comes from Vernon Cronin, Barnett Pierce, and is about collaborative sense making and meaning making. It's a framework. Right, solute genesis. I think of as a goal not a framework so I don't know. I'm really interested in what you mean by using, for example, if we said let's use solute genesis as a framework for activities here. I don't, I can't actually imagine what that tumbles into. What does that create because I know that it's about public health and, you know, prophylaxis and a bunch of other stuff that I don't know that I didn't put in here. And I know that the general health care system that we have is built around pathogenesis basically how do we stop disease. Right. It's the opposite and I love the ideas behind solute genesis, which which connect up with subjective well being and a bunch of other stuff like Antonovsky who sort of help pioneer that stuff. I don't know how to use it as a other than as a motivational framework I don't know how to use it as a structural framework for what we're doing here and Allison has an answer to that which is why it's so awesome that you're next in the queue even. Awesome that I'm next in the queue I'm really excited about being awesome next to the queue. And I can say, I entirely have a framework but we do align she won't and I on this alluded genesis approach. And what I have been putting forward and just as a background because I haven't had a chance to meet Wendy who just jumped out of the call anyway. I, my, my jam is monetary design right so that that and designing economic ecosystems. The first part of that that I visualizes healing economic trauma and the importance of seeing a lot of what it is that we're talking about a symptomology of economic drama, because the way that we designed our relational. It's what relations, economics is about relationships fundamentally isn't not right. That's what it's about is about connecting with other people to collectively fulfill our desires. So, when we have an economy that prioritizes extraction instead of relationships, as an indigenous economy might have done with the wampum belt for instance, then we're going to have a series of traumas that repeat over and over again with behaviors that are all coming from this basic place of operating contradiction to one another's well being and not in contradiction to the fundamental joy of the relationship that's economic trauma we can see it in absolutely everything. Why are we talking about social media constantly reinforcing these negative behaviors when we talk about advertising and what's the role of advertising to siphon more money in that everybody is competing for so bringing in the monetary aspect of why social media as great as it could be turns out to be a negative impact I think it's worth talking about. I think it's interesting to look at to the second piece that fascinates me is designing economic ecosystems and the third piece is drawing down all the crap that we have in the air so so genetic monetary design is something worth looking at. Okay, so the three components of solutagenesis, somebody feels right with the relationship with their life in the world, when they have a sense of meaning. Right. When we have our sense of ability, we're well resourced, we can ask for the help that we need and we can get what we want we have a sense of coherent like predictability right. You want to correct me I'm a little bit under slept. So those three things are indicative of our money design. Okay, so money is created as really it's talked about as two major things. A unit of account will just say whatever that said, but it's really it's a medium of exchange in a store of value, a meeting of exchange allows money to be able to make us feel resourced. Okay, that's part of solutagenesis. A store of value allows us to feel that in the future we have some sense of predictability. Those two fundamental pieces of solutagenesis right are inherent within our economic and monetary design. However, meeting needs right now, and storing value or having some predictability in the future. Those two very different needs are currently being met with the same fully flawed money. Right. That is causing problems. We've got to recognize that we cannot store money and use it as a medium of exchange without caught wreaking havoc in so many different ways. So we need to untether those address that those are two fundamental human needs and design an economy to be able to meet those needs. The final thing is meaning and meaning. We tend to think that the economy is neutral I tried to explain this and the last piece that I wrote about Voldemort money. Right. So, because it is so devoid of meaning, we tend to think of our money as being neutral. Right. So I get a lot of feedback from people who care a lot about the climate. And I say well the money we've got to address this we can't just get on the phone and tell people to use money in a responsible way and they say Alison I think it's about how we choose to use our money. Money isn't the problem it's how we choose to use it. We'll see them we're blinded again. Okay, because we're choosing to think that just because money is meaningless that it's neutral. And that's if that's that's flawed perception so right now, this crypto world is creating meaningless just to grow, but there are also people who are trying to reflect meaning with their money right having the money reflect just like time banking and community currencies have done reflecting something that's meaningful a gift that somebody is bringing into the world, something that can be evaluated something that's regenerating. So this is where we are at right now is at this forefront of designing money that has meaning, designing money that can just be used as a medium of exchange, and designing money that can, or designing whatever it is that creates some kind of equity stake in the future so that we feel some sense of security going forward. Right. So, that's it that's ludogenic monetary design. I think it's worth talking about saying, dang, it's completely worth talking about and money is one of those tar pit kind of kind of issues for me in that very few people even actually can explain well what money is. It has all these little sinkholes where dinosaurs were buried and fossilized like, why does the Federal Reserve exist and how does that happen, or how does money actually get created and who gets to create it, or isn't Bitcoin going to fix this, or like like I could just sort of without thinking too hard I can think of like lots of different like pits of where we're getting stuck trying to rethink money in this and our relationship to it. And one of my big bug, one of the reasons I love the great transformation for Carl Polanyi's book from 1944 is that one of the things he says is that before the Industrial Revolution, everything didn't have a price. Before the Industrial Revolution, we stayed alive really nicely through reciprocity redistribution and householding are the three things he points to, and then a bunch of other stuff and we can't. We have a hard time imagining today, unless you've lived on a kibbutz or done something progressive. We can't imagine today, a world where everything doesn't have a price and you don't have to have money to buy your sustenance for the day. We can't we can't actually even picture that. And so replacing money with better money is interesting but what if we could live happily without money what if there were other forms of cooperation collaboration Allison. Yes, and yeah, this is a rich motherload of how do we incentivize getting people into the collective and things like that and kind of what someone of the shares. I tried to share this, this beautiful book that was just published for COP 26 on climate adaptation about community living and multiple other chapters about currency and how many, how much fewer resources. And, and so yeah definitely that's that's one of the major ways and right now I'm excited to say so personal update that I've reached out to local indigenous groups who are going to help me to under to come up with a model of putting a teeny tiny piece of land that I have inherited through by virtue of being white and having, and having family who before two acres of land it's in my county, and putting that into a land trust with under the advisement of the local indigenous who will either own part of it be able to access and and buys the land management and whatever so anyway land trust and community living and definitely way forward. I love land trust I think they're awesome that the whole idea that we've turned our houses into our retirement accounts and that we want appreciation of those houses so we basically want to price people who can't afford houses right out of neighborhoods like that that whole that whole dynamic sucks. I hate that that's what we now expect, and that everybody's sad when their neighborhood doesn't appreciate a lot every year. It's like, man, do we realize the implications of of turning our homes into investment vehicles and economic trauma when we're so frozen about trying to create security for ourselves that we can't detach from that totally and create new systems that alleviate that actually replicate maybe carbon cycles instead of holding on to money that last Michael please jump in. No, you're muted. Yeah, I was I was going to say something about, you know, pending pending the utter redesign of the economic system. Regarding that that house apreciate home appreciation and how it impacts gentrification and all that smart contracts. I'm really interested in this idea and exploring to see if anybody's playing with it. The idea that smart contracts could be a way for for the over real estate turning over in an area to benefit the people who are there, the longest or at worst being displaced. So there's, you know that that just the way that NFTs can be sold and benefit the artist. The person who lived in the house and took care of it when the economic value of that area was not as high could somehow benefit from the, the, you know, further valuation of that of that space. Yeah, thanks Michael. Thanks for saying that I have, I do actually I'm needed in a different zoom. I don't know about needed. I have to show up in a different zoom. And we are missing to my knowledge these people who didn't have a chance to check in. I'm happy to pass the con. Actually, I don't even have to pass the con because we're not in my zoom or in collective next zoom. If you want to stay here and go through the rest of the queue that'd be fine. I don't know who would like to step forward or we can wrap the call right now with my apologies to the people who didn't have a chance to check in preferences. Tony. You're waving goodbye. You're muted. Tony's waving goodbye saying don't need to check in right now he's he's good. So why don't we why don't we wrap this call. Shimon and I I think we'll plan. He just DM to me a little bit here on the side and said he can do a presentation about solid genesis I'm thinking we could do a pop up call on solid genesis Allison I'll coordinate with you so that you and Shimon kind of our way so that we make sure that both of you can make the call. And we'll just set something up. I'm going to stick something I was taking some notes, since I didn't really check in about the idea of information consumption as disease and and you know what the diagnosis might want to put that in the matter most the calls channel for matter most which is this channel, which we were supposed to be using instead of the zoom here but that failed. That'd be great. Super. Thanks everybody. Really appreciate your being here and you're sharing your hearts and souls and ideas.