 As a sport and development of the same and apologies for those technical hitches, of course, glad that they have been addressed. Of course, Michala Barasa, the bodybuilding athlete and advocate of the high cut is still on the show and she's talking to us about doping, which has been rampant in athletics. We've seen how several athletics icons have been banned from involvement in sporting activities internationally for consumption of banned substances. And she was telling us that in bodybuilding the practice is also common, right? Yes, it's very rampant. Is it attributed to why you haven't been involved in a lot of activities and competition services? Not really, that's not the main reason why people don't compete internationally. Because if you're going to put your money to go and compete internationally you very carefully choose a show. And in bodybuilding it's rampant because there are some shows that you don't get tested. So you can go to a show and you don't actually have to be a natural athlete. And I think that is another thing that has led to a lot of suffering of bodybuilders in Kenya due to doping. Because if you go out out there and you are not tested, you'll come here, you come back here and feel like, oh yeah, so I went outside, I competed now, I'm invincible. Adap can't touch me and then the Federation sends adap to you. And you know the tests are usually, I think you know how the tests are done. But usually they just send someone, one day you wake up and you get a phone call and they're like, oh Adaka coming to the gym or to your house or wherever to test you. And they call your coach and you're standing there in the morning just wondering and they can't test you and they go. So it's usually very random testing. Like I've been tested four to five times and all those times it was random. Only one time it was at a competition. So yeah, it's actually quite a scourge in our sport. Ken, it's not a scourge in football, right? I think it can be but it isn't really. And I think that the big question is a lot of people out there who are getting into sports are already in sports. They mostly think that it's narcotics which are tested and I think that that's not the case. No, no, no. So they don't test you for alcohol. I'm sorry, they don't test you for alcohol. They don't test you for drugs. It's performance enhancing substance is the big test for PDCS. That's what they test for. And I think it's also very depending on the sport and depending on what the doping federation of a country has. It's also very specific performance enhancing drugs. Not that there are some that you put in your system as an athlete. But I'm just saying it's actually very specific things that they look for in your system. We've seen how some athletes cry foul because not necessarily they intent testing positive for consumption of enhancing substances. But sometimes because of the meal they eat and unintentionally they test positive. And now you see there is public criticism outside there how someone got caught up in the mess maybe according to the laymen outside there they think it's intentional. Someone wanted to win on the track and that's why he or she did consume such substances. Is that true? That you can caught up in that particular mess unknowingly. You can get caught up in it because I was saying initially that you might be on some medication that actually involves a steroid or a strain of a performance enhancing drug. But that being said for doping unfortunately it's neither here nor there whether you intended to do it. It's what in law is called a strict liability offense. You don't need to prove intent. As long as it's in your system it's already in your system you'll get a burn. That's just it. More often than not you get a burn unless the procedure that the anti-doping agency used to test you was not in accordance with what they should do you'll get a burn. So finally let's speak about now the legal aspect of the game as an advocate of the high court. I think you are in prime position to talk to us about the many sportsmen have been facing the contracts and termination of the same because there are those sportsmen and athletes who venture into negotiation of the deal. Sign contracts then unknowingly probably it gets violated due to the mistake they themselves did. But necessarily knowing the niti grittis of the same. I don't know. How do Kenyan sportsmen go about it? First of all I'd very much like to dismiss the word negotiations when it comes to some of these sports. Negotiation is quite a farfetched term because you come today they give you a contract and you're like oh yeah. So I'm going to be paid 3000 shillings you've not looked into what how much of that money is going to the promoters to training maybe you're going home with like 200 shillings. But you've not looked into the niti grittis of it. So most of the time a lot of people that are assigning these contracts are rushed into like sign quickly because camp starts tomorrow and you'll not be part of camp so you actually need to sign this contract. And a lot of young people get to sign these contracts without knowing the content of it. That being said I think some sports people some sportsmen or athletes get into clubs and into leagues without contracts which is unfortunate because someone can wake up today and dismiss you. Sometimes your league is maybe you have to play for a league for nine months and then the season is like maybe how long is the football season? Running from late day into the media maybe August to June. Okay so let's say maybe one year then you sign a four months contract. Why are you signing a four months contract if you're going to play in the league for the next 12 months? So definitely the contract will be terminated halfway. Exactly. It will end halfway and probably you're still playing and they can let you go off in the middle of the league. Those are some of the things that maybe our sports people and athletes need to be educated about. Because sometimes you're also thrown out of a perfectly good contract and you're like oh sasa wali nirushanje, there's nothing I can do about it. Yet you have legal remedies. You can simply just write a letter to them and tell them no my contract is not over I need to be paid ABCDEFG. And let me tell you the thing that young people don't do enough especially in sports is threatened to go to the sports tribunal. You just go and say okay so I'm supposed to be having four more months on my contract. This is my letter I'm going to the sports tribunal. You as the club look at what you can do about it. If you don't do anything I'm filing in the sports tribunal. And the thing we also don't know is once you get to the sports tribunal and tell them this is my issue with my league or this is my issue with my federation. They actually appoint a lawyer for you and they give you a lawyer free of charge. Sure. Yes. There are pro bono lawyers in the sports tribunal. I am one of them. There are pro bono lawyers in the sports tribunal so the sports tribunal actually pays you to conduct that matter for the athlete. And this is something that also did you know that? No. See? The information is not in the public domain. It's not in the public domain. And Ken you see I think football is rampant with you know this concern of player signing contracts. And they are contracts getting terminated that way and now they start crying foul complaining to government and federation. I don't know. Can we say it's excitement when you get a contract 200,000 per month. Yeah. And you're joining Gormaya. Yeah it is usually excitement because you know you work hard to get to KPL. It takes a lot of hard work and dedication and sometimes the agents they are not even people. They are people your coaches from where you are training. Not people who know things legally. The professionals. The professionals. So they just look at the contract and they say ah. Ikosao. Ikosao. They usually look at maybe what the agent will get. They care about themselves. They end up signing and the player's career just doing those cause of a contract. So I think you have a problem of middlemen in the name of agents. And the other thing is the oils telling you when you look at a contract. Nowadays when I get a contract even for my legal services. I usually look at how much VAT am I paying. What is the withholding tax. What is the incidental amount. Before you get to know the take home. Yes. So I'm just like what is my take home from this contract. So you'll see Ken has a contract for 200,000 but you're taking on 30,000 she brings. That is a contract you as Ken can say imagine we can't do this. Like I can't be playing for 30,000 and the contract is worth 200,000. And another thing I would just like to say as we wrap up is. Most of the athletes I have dealt with do not keep a copy of their contract. And I'm like this is the thing that is giving you money. Why don't you have a copy of it. Have a copy of it in your email, in your WhatsApp, in your drawer at home. Like scan it, put it in your email. When things become hard when you're being thrown out. Pull out your contract and give it to a legal person. I'm sure there's a lot of legal people even on Twitter. Just put your contract on Twitter and say. I need a sports lawyer to help me with ABCDE. Someone will come up and help you, I promise you. So enough documentation is also very important. It is, it's very important. Wow, that has been quite an interesting conversation. So as we find, I will wrap up my question before Ken does is. Your next step, I don't know what should we look forward to in terms of your individual. Goal and ambition going forward as far as bodybuilding is concerned. Is there any competition you expecting to take part in? So this year in May, I was supposed to go to the Arnold Classic Africa to compete. Unfortunately, COVID-19 happened, so that's not happening. Hopefully I get to get a competition between October and December to compete internationally. If I do not get that, I've also started, fitness is a moving target. You try everything. Now I've also started mountaineering. And hopefully, hopefully, hopefully, I get to summit Bhatiaan this year. I get to go to Mount Kenya and summit Bhatiaan. We can take part as well, right Ken? When is it slated to happen? Sometime in June. Sometime in June. And hopefully, the president would have lifted the ban and protocols. So that's my goal, but objectively, I would like to actually compete this year and compete internationally and see what I can do for the sport, for my country, for my gym. Ken, you have a question? I advise to females who are lawyers and are thinking of going into law in terms of sports and stuff, but they have their doubts maybe. Maybe you could tell them something. The thing is, even my sports law portfolio is not very big at the moment. And I'm someone in sports. So that should tell you something about how much there is to work within this industry. But ultimately, for me, the thing has always been Katanish for yourself. If you've decided it's sports law, go all the way. Go tell people you're a sports lawyer on Instagram, on TikTok, on Viscate, on Facebook, on Twitter, like shout it on the rooftops and just do your thing. The right client will find you. That's what I believe in. Just like himself, he's a sports journalist, he's a French footballer and he's a pandit as well. Anyway, it's been a pleasure being here on board. Thank you for coming through to talk to us about development of bodybuilding and legal aspect of the game. Celestin Michala Baraza, bodybuilding athlete and advocate of the high court. Joining us this particular afternoon to give our insights on various issues ranging from bodybuilding as a sport, the potential it has in Kenya and even internationally, her own ambition going forward and even doping which has been a monster roking various sporting personalities in the country and even overseas. Thank you for coming through all as a pleasure. You're super welcome. Thank you for having me Ken and Max. Touchline is the show. Of course, we're taking a short break before we come with the preview of what's happening tonight. 10 p.m. Let's kick off Liverpool. Apagenest Arsenal. Don't go away, stay tuned. It's the touchline. Let's continue the conversation on our social media handles.