 Perfect great that welcome. Where are you today? I am in Washington, DC Excellent just down the road No, I have all kinds of questions that I use to get people to introduce themselves The world of dance you for the year ahead 2020 what are the big things you're going to be working on and thinking about Okay, so I am going to be working with credential engine to Really increase credential transparency not only in the US, but also probably globally We'll start working on that this year but I think I probably need to unpack that and and say what I mean by credentials and transparency and so right so do that But before you do that before you do that, let me just ask you can do this all from DC or you're gonna be traveling a lot I'll be traveling Some maybe not a lot there's a lot going on right here in DC with the Department of Ed and commerce and national higher ed organizations So a lot of what I'm working on makes sense right here in DC, which is good Absolutely. Well, we're gonna be done remotely like this. So Well, that may be the 21st century. So so tell us what do you mean by credentials and what do you mean by transparency? Okay, so credentials I'm referring to all different types of credentials So most people think about degrees, but I'm referring to degrees diploma certificate certifications licensures badges and really any documentation from an authoritative source about a learning achievement and so that would include internships apprenticeships civilian and military and community training programs So that people have some form of documentation of what they've learned And increasingly that's digital digital credentials and we want those to be interoperable So these are not just academic, but they also include military Governmental as well as business and non-profit generative. Yep. This is the world of credentials. This is huge it is and Research that we completed last fall shows that there are currently about 738,000 credentials offered just in the US Wait, how many 738,000 Wow, and how many how many types of credentials is that? Well, that includes About 10 different categories that we do the analysis on In each category, there's a whole bunch of variety, right? Right. Wow, and so much variety that you know, most people Really can't understand how to navigate through this environment and yet people need to have multiple credentials because Their lives in their careers are rapidly changing and so they know they need documentation of their skills But it's really hard to understand what credentials are valuable and what they include and all of that so You know very good That tells us a lot on top of that you said transparency I if I've got my my diploma or if I've got my transcript that looks pretty clear to me What's the what's the transparency? We're missing looks pretty clear. It's like hanging on your wall, right? It's a real valuable there You go to put it, you know on your resume or in your LinkedIn profile You could say whatever the heck you want and it may or may not be accurate And it may or may not tell an employer or someone else what you what you actually know and can do right? So that's where new technologies can really help us so a credential engine. That's our mission credential transparency We're a nonprofit we've been founded by Education and government and quality assurance and business organizations coming together and saying Let's have a unified way of describing all different types of credentials and That's the credential transparency description language, which is it's a metadata language a schema for linked open data about all different types of credentials to Make them available as verified digital records But also to make this information about credentials available and linked to all different kinds of information on web I I have so many questions My gosh, and but let me just say first of all Everybody involved in this conversation. Your questions are the important ones. I would love to hear from you Yeah, at no at no time should you feel embarrassed if you have a really basic question believe me I've got a couple kindergarten level questions. I want to ask Please feel free to put them out there if you have examples if you'd like to ask how this can work This is your form and we'd love to hear from you. Let me let me just kick things out I just have a couple of questions along the way. You're describing a language. Is that so are you basically helping create a new standard language for Describing credentialing that's human and machine readable. Yes and for those in the audience it's it's Harmonized with schema org so if you think about the schema of how all different types of entities are represented on the web So that search engines can find them so that all different types of systems can make sense of the relationships between those data elements But this is a Schema.org tends to be very general and high-level because it's serving high-level use cases across the globe Credential engine is also designed that I'm sorry the credential transparency description language developed by credential engine is Also designed from the beginning to be global, but it supports much richer and more specific Credential and competency use cases with about 450 different terms That you used to describe not only the credentials But also the learning opportunities the competencies the assessments the quality assurance structures costs earnings outcomes Jurisdiction all of those different types of things are structured linked data in CTDL Wow, so including earnings. I mean, that's this is really extensive And because it no credential has to have all these fields filled in right they can only be right right the the required minimum data is pretty minimum because we want to get this to scale as quickly as possible and So we have an open freely available credential registry where any credential issuer can publish their credentials and so the minimum data for Publishing your credentials to the registry is pretty minimal But we encourage everyone to move up to the benchmark level, which is the the richer more complete Information that's going to make this data more valuable How many fields is the minimum of a benchmark? the minimum is Probably about ten fields. It's not very many and then the benchmark varies depending on the type of credential This sounds kind of just this is a straight observation. It reminds me a bit of Dublin core. Yes In fact, you are Sutton who is the genius of Dublin core is one of our key advisors Oh, excellent. Next. If you don't know Dublin core is a metadata standard everybody that is used in the library world And famous it's not named after Dublin Ireland, but after Dublin, Ohio, which is a little trivia detail That's always fun to have. I didn't know that that's great Dublin, Ohio is pretty cold today. We do have one question that just came in and this is from the awesome Julie You're on this and let me just publish this So that you can all see it so Julie asks I'm interested in the carrots and sticks that would be deployed to get institutions and educational partners to list There's 7,000 K credentials are the other than state partners. What's your roadmap for expanding? So I should probably first explain what Julie means by state partners A lot of our focus has been at the state level We're currently working with 16 states and the LA region With probably six or eight more states very interested in coming on board soon And what we're doing with work is working with state-level agencies who have Prudential transparency problems that they're trying to solve. So Julie, this is to your point about carrots, right? They have a problem. They need to solve it and CCDL can help one example of that type of problem is that states manage ETP L's education training provider lists that are eligible for federal funds from we owe a and In many cases at the state level those ETP L's don't have good data structures for communicating with educational data different kinds of training programs and And also regional needs, you know Like workforce development initiatives So we can work with them and even if the only thing they do is use CTDL to get some unified descriptions of their ETP L credentials That is a good example of a really valuable thing most states are going further than that and even publishing all of their publicly available Data about credentials to the credential to the credential registry at the state level So some of those same Some of those same problems are also true for systems. We're working with some university systems where They don't necessarily have the this is Sounds like a surprise, but it's not if you're working in those systems They don't always have uniform credential data across The the state university systems or maybe the you know, the universities and the community colleges Let alone training and certification and apprenticeship programs that are outside those higher ed institutions. So Some of the carrots are just better communication cost savings better data infrastructure And other carrots, especially for individual institutions or even programs within institutions are about visibility having a better way of describing what your credentials are and what competencies they include and Making your data about your credentials more findable by search engines with the structured link data Well, that's a very very rich answer to a fantastic question. Thank you very much, Julie You want to know about sticks also Julie? She did ask about sticks and ask about sticks I think that in some cases Partly because of the cost savings you're going to see a top-down approach that says Credential issuer you have to provide your credential data in this format in order to be in this data structure and so that would be a forcing mechanism for institutions to Organize they might even have that data right so to organize that data and get it into CTO and get it into the reporting structure that works We anticipate a possible stick to come. Do you think state governments will be able to use this? To try to incentivize or even compel at least public universities and colleges to participate Yes, okay, and and part of that is Consumer protections accountability to stakeholders and some other really obvious reasons Why public institutions are accountable and therefore it's not unreasonable to expect them to provide Credential data that can be compared across different types of credentials Thank you again great question Julie. She always asked her questions And now we have another question that came up. This is a simpler one from Angela Vela Stolik Who asks what initiated this project on your end? I think in part that's how do you get involved? Oh for well, so let me say a little bit about the origins of credential engine and then talk about my involvement so it started as a Research project at George Washington University to see Whether or not there, you know was anything like this somewhere else in the world, which there's not and And Whether or not it would be feasible to set up something like a credential registry and actually have unique Identifiers each individual credential competency and credentialing organization and what would be the benefits of that? So started as a as a research project has gotten foundation funding from Many different funders and that that funding continues I'm not going to try to list our funders because I'll forget someone and then I'll be in trouble And How did I come to that so? I've always been a futurist and when I saw this initiative I thought wow, that's really smart and really ambitious So I started following it from the beginning At the time I was working on Badges and other innovative credentials And I was a volunteer in the work groups and actually helped develop the credential transparency description language as a volunteer And then I made a career transition this year and Now I'm there full-time, which is awesome. Oh, it does sound awesome As one of future is to another I'm delighted to hear it. Yeah We have another detailed question that comes from let's see This is from Rob per good off who asks hang on. Let me just put this up here Are your discussions technology and vendor agnostic good question, Rob Brian's discussions or the are your discussions at the credential? Well technology agnostic vendor agnostic yes technology agnostic Not completely because we have a strong bias to linked open data We think that for data to be powerful it needs to be Interoperable not only in closed data systems, but also in open data systems and so That's a very strong bias of ours CTDL has been designed that way from the beginning the credential and the credential Registry post everything To web as linked open data now data in the credential registry can be in a Community that is closed for example a Navy project that we're working on right now is in a Navy Specific part of the credential registry, but it's still in linked open data So any parts of that data they want to expose to the world they can That's really important to us Vendor neutral yes, and we would love for more vendors to get actively involved in this space I saw a few in the participants and this is this is your call to action because this is a Rapidly changing arena where the demand is going to be growing Exponentially and so we want we already are working with a number of tech vendors Which again, I won't name because I don't want to forget one but SIS badge platforms LMS is Various types of university cataloging and credentialing systems as well as HR systems all Should be able to use some pretty straightforward methods to use our APIs to Publish credentials and competencies to the registry That's a really really Insistive question and a very detailed response. Thank you to both of you What you if you're new to the forum what you're seeing so far are Questions that people have published their text questions now what I'd like to do is Introduce a video question and this is from the wonderful Tom Haynes in the Houston area Tom. How are you doing? I'll hang in there Little rough around the edges today So my question is this you seem to be assembling I mean this is a tremendous project in terms of the scope of it and kind of boggles the mind in that sense But there's there's an awful lot of wet width to this but what I'm wondering is How do we use this data to assemble a more in-depth? Vision of what a potential employee folk post-student whatever credentialed individual actually brings to the table I was recently reading about the University of Sydney's soft skills addition to their transcripts and I found that very interesting because you know, I find that you know Credentials are based ultimately on grades and completing and checking boxes and going through a bunch of other stuff which generally has very little to do with actual learning and So my concern is of course that you build a This is important and necessary, but you're building a Canvas of something that doesn't necessarily give us a really good feel for what the student is So my question is how do you address that issue? Sure, so that's why one of the key elements of credentials in the CTDL is the competencies Now mind you not every credential inch issuer actually has well defined competencies that they can Include in their credentials. So competencies are not part of the the minimum required data But we're strongly encouraging everyone to include those competencies Because the competencies are the level that maps to the job skills and various types of career progression requirements and So if you don't have that level of richness in the data, like you said, then it becomes well It's a more efficient way of managing high-level data about credentials, but does it really help individuals? Does it help? employers find individuals with the right talents Now let me back up for a minute and and note that The credential registry does not collect or issue Credentials to specific people So we don't have any personally identifiable information in the registry This is the abstracted information about the credentials and the and the competencies and the various types of organization So you're essentially measuring or evaluating the program not the individual. That's right. That's right But now with digital credentials badges comprehensive learner records Interoperable learning record universal learning record. There's a whole bunch of names for these now, right? But the key thing is that as we have more and more digital credentials our What we're advocating for again this call to action for all of you is that Those credentials and competencies be published to the registry So that then you get a globally unique identifier the CPID That can be embedded in that digital credential And then that linked open data is connected out to all of the information about the credentials competencies the assessments The learning program what courses as much detail as that credential provider Chose to include through the link to open data And then because it's linked it can link out to all kinds of other rich data. So say for example, the credential provider has Date has a link to the QA organization And then there's all of that rich information about the QA organization and their QA processes So I have a really nasty question. Are there any plans to hook this to a rating system? So employers can sit there and go. Oh, well, they say they teach these skills, but the person we hired has no idea What they're doing in this area? Well, it's a really valuable question actually because right now what we do not we credential engine, but we as a You know as ecosystems Those employment outcomes are based on some pretty rude and rudimentary To the extent Start somewhere is this person employed after they got this credential. Are they employed in the occupation to which this credential is Aligned Do we have information about their earnings? Do we have any Longitudinal data to know whether or not that was actually an improvement in their earnings. Those are pretty basic things but this type of Rich data transparency can give us actually those loops those feedback loops Assuming you have the data coming in one of the one of the problems we have here in Texas Is that that kind of data is completely untracked and and therefore we have no idea about what's actually happening when they come out I Mean other than self-reporting of some sort, but there's really no state-wide system like some other states have that actually tracks that sort of stuff Well, and this can this can actually shortcut that because employers are also organizations they can be entities in the credential registry and They can Make endorsements of credentials So in that case, they're not endorsing a specific person who has that credential but they can say we have one or more employees who have this credential and they could choose to endorse that credential based on that but they can also provide feedback to So a lot of educational institutions have ways of collaborating with local or regional employers, right? But this can actually provide a communication mechanism for that to say look you say you have these competencies in This credential we actually hired some people who have this credential and they don't or They do and that's good, but we also want these other Competencies included in your programs. So it can it can open up that kind of dialogue without having to have a state level System that does that Great. Thank you. Thank you for those great. That's great start. I hope you feel better time. No, thanks I'll be fine if so again, that's a video question easy to do so if you've got a camera if you've got a mic and And you're ready to go. You don't have to be in Texas. You can be anywhere and I will put you up on stage In fact, we have another person here from another friend of the program for a long time ago Let me bring up the awesome Michael Berman Happy New Year. Hi Michael. Hey Debra. Hey Brian. Where are you today Michael? I'm in Long Beach, California fantastic and So and and you're you're in your new Lair that has Reasonable bandwidth except when it doesn't it has very good bandwidth. I'm not sure which is today But yeah, it's very good only when you do a webinar. There's a problem. Otherwise. It's perfect anyway Good good to see you both so Debra you answered some of my question already, but I'm trying to understand I need someone to do a whole workshop to help me understand the the whole ecosystem that's growing up around this area of credentialing I mean, I think that what you said about You're you're evaluating the credentials not the people is very helpful and I get that kind of something clicked for me when you said that I'm trying to understand the relationship between what you're doing and For example, what I am s global is doing with the the conference of learner record and as you mentioned the other there's several other initiatives that are Going down similar tracks with coming from a little bit different directions I'm hoping some of this will converge because when I look at for the Cal State system, you know We we can't follow we can only follow so many of these initiatives and so hopefully they'll convert somewhat but I do think that If I let me let me put it my words and help me understand if this is what you're saying so what you this this ID number that you're developing that's a That represents a unique identifier that maps to particular competency the idea this that becomes in a data point within student credentials So then student credentials as opposed to just having Only having sort of general descriptors that an institution or might be self-described as a company You've got some that are really pinned down That are well-described in some publicly accessible open metadata and that's really the piece of the puzzle that you're trying to solve is that is that how I understand it Yes, and to grow that publicly available metadata so that there's So that there's more right I mean Comparisons for example But to your the first part of your question about ecosystems That's deliberately plural because there are all different types of ecosystems growing up around this So for example our regional initiative in the LA area is Focused primarily on the retail and hospitality sector. And so that's You know say specific programs within community colleges within a region collaborating with specific employers to Develop that the needed workforce for that particular region and that's a very Viable and an important example of an ecosystem, but there's many others in some cases. It might even be a specific badging initiative at an institution that provides the People call them soft skills, but I hate that phrase 21st century skills durable skills cross-cutting competencies And they that might be a badging initiative at a specific institution with local employers to say well Does someone actually come out of this program with teamwork skills? For example, so anyway, there are many different examples of ecosystems But then to your point about How some of these things are converging so I I totally hear you about all these different organizations doing different things if you want to If you want to go straight to where there's focus, it's bringing these things together go to the t3 innovation network Which is organized by the US Chamber of Commerce Foundation and what that's done has Brought together over the last couple of years people from education training business government military and looked at the the convergence of how we can use 21st century technologies, especially linked open data and Solve some of the problems in the the talent marketplace Right, so that's what how do people represent their own skills and accomplishments and be able to use those and have them You know like competencies of currency, right? So anyway, there's There's a bunch of different work groups there You can choose the one that is most relevant for your particular interest You can just follow along with all of them credential engine is involved in all of them that touch on what we're doing IMS is also involved there and the specific touch point between IMS comprehensive learner records the CLR and Credential engine well, I'm a touch point because I was actually one of the Co-leads on the development of the CLR. I thought you're involved in that. Yeah. Yeah, and but But part of what we did when we developed the CLR standard is that we Harmonized it already with credential engine CLR is a container that is going to issue those structured digital Records to individuals then those individual records within there can include the CT ID and Then you don't have to embed a lot of extra data in that CLR unless you want to Because that's that data is all connected to it via the CT ID Same thing with other digital credential technologies open badges There the t3 innovation network is launching a set of pilots this spring on ILRs, which are very similar, but they're More clearly designed specifically within employment Feedback loops involved So we had a quick question about that came from the chat But which was is the ID to the credential or to the person who earned that credential? The well, you're still you're also going to need, you know The personally identifiable information for that individual, but that's not the part that we do, right? So and there's actually a t3 innovation Work group about that about Personal identifiers what we do with the credential will transparency identifier the CT ID is The different data points in the registry like a credential or a competency or a credential issuer That record in the credential registry has that global unique identifier that can be embedded in any digital system and At any point link out to all that data via the web Thank you. Thank you. We have more questions coming in Michael. Thank you for that one. Thank you very much. See you soon We have a whole bunch of people who are asking I just want to I'll read your question out Kelly and And Chris systems actually had a very similar questions. I'm gonna just put this up on the screen How do credential how do colleges and universities start participating in the credential engine and CETL? Okay, so that's actually really simple go to credential engine org and You'll see there a lot of resources to help you learn more about what we do and CETL And you'll also see right on the page a link to the credential registry where you can go and create an account and start publishing information about your credentials and We provide a variety of assistance with that We try to make it as do it yourself as possible because we want it to be very scalable. So we have Open source resources Their community commons license. So also if you want to become an advocate for this and Learn more about it yourself, but then help other people learn how to do it better yet So there's there's how-to guides. There's fact sheets there's a very straightforward process for creating account and Publishing your credentials to the registry And of course you can reach out to us also We have a small staff. We're always eager to help and we're particularly eager to help people who want to help other people So Well, and I think we're we're glad to do our role here on the forum We have another question. Thank you. It's free. I see that in the chat. Can you say that again? It's free There's no charge for For using the registry for using any of the documentation for using ctdl I don't think you can say free often enough Hi, can you hear me? My dad hopefully I'll see you next week Okay The question I had is actually around the ability to maintain or exert Selective disclosure of the elements from a credential that's in the registry when shared with others That is to say I might want someone to Know I have a credential for something but I may not want to describe anything more about it unless There is a direct one-on-one connection between us That's a good question. I don't actually know the answer to that question I'd have to ask our tech people and since I probably will see you soon, I'll I'll track that down and find out Okay, the question comes up because at least from what we're seeing there's an increasing interest in Sort of the general topic of selective disclosure Where the individual retains the ability to say what about themselves they want to to share and In the search context for example, if you're in the registry you may want to Be able to disclose that you got a degree from Cal State But nothing more at that point unless there is further interest or or Follow-up from the person who's inquiring or the end of the vendor that are the the employer that's inquiring, right? So let's let's make a distinction between the Individual record of the credential that's issued to the individual and certainly that type of selective disclosure is is Critically important there like you might want to say I got this degree, but I'm not going to disclose my grades for example, right? And then the degree could be verified, but not more specific information but if the if you're talking about the motivations of the credential provider and the data that they're providing about the credential, right? Maybe they have for example some deep and fairly complex information about earnings that they Captured not about earnings of individual people, right? But about the earnings outcomes for that credential and aggregate Maybe they produce that information for certain types of initiatives, but they don't what it publicly available on the web I'm I just don't know whether or not the registry out of the box supports that type of Disclosure Looks like somebody has oh somebody's got a link to credential engine in general not that specific point, but that said I Did say free free free free free, but we can also provide paid services So if the credential registry doesn't support that out of the box But an institution or a state system or whoever wanted to do that, then that's the type of a Specialized services that we can provide via a contract and Is there you can ask one more question is that okay? Yeah Brian's gone so yeah, go ahead Yes The question comes up with respect to the recent introduction of the California Consumer Privacy Act where individuals organizations that are collecting data about people need to be able to well within Qualified by how many how many individuals are collecting data about and things like that, but Assuming that you fall into their general category of coverage Are What impact or have you actually analyzed the impact of what you need to be able to? provide and or do To the individual that says yes I do want my data included in aggregations or don't want my data included in aggregations of various sorts and that in that Kind of thing that's a really important question, but it's not one that we at credential engine Work with directly because we don't collect any personally identifiable information and we also don't collect that data that is then analyzed in aggregate it would be the credential issuer who collects that data and and decides how to analyze it for the earnings the aggregate earnings outcome for example It's probably worth checking in into that a little more in so far as the Attorney General in California has said that derived data from individuals contributions from an institution or otherwise Still constitute things that the individual should be able to withdraw from Yes, that's true, but we just don't we don't collect those data. No, but you might redistribute some of that Yeah, the case in point came from indeed.com which Their response to that was if you want to have the day the derived data that we create About you all the people registering that indeed Withdrawn from your contribution to that withdrawn then you can do that, but you also have to delete your account You can't use our service anymore Phil is that the new California law that just that's correct. Yeah I appreciate it and I really look forward to seeing you again. Okay. See you soon Friends we have about 10 minutes left and we have a whole bevy of questions coming in Deb, how are you holding up? Is this good? Great. Yeah. Oh great Well, we've got a couple more text questions which I'll put up here. So here's one from from Doyle Which is what is the validation process in determining the quality of the program credential? So quality is Relative right quality by what criteria and for whose purposes and so our so first of all, let me say that credential engine was founded by multiple types of organizations including QA organizations and we have an active advisory group now of quality assurance organizations not only from higher ed, but also from other types of bodies and So we are we are deeply concerned and committed to the question of quality However, we are not a We are not the quality police our aim is to Encourage everyone to publish as much information as possible Including about the quality assurance organizations that oversee this credentialing institution and the programs that produce these credentials and To provide a lot of really rich data so that a different stakeholders can make their own determinations about quality What might be high quality for an employer might be different for someone who is seeking to pursue a different particular credential might be different for someone who is providing funding to that organization and so our focus is really on Providing data for people to be able to make quality determinations not for us to make those not for us to make those determinations Thank you, and thank you Dorel for the really cool question We have this is the part of the program where we start to look forward to the future and already we've been doing that You've been describing an ambitious project in the roadmap and a lot a lot of directions to proceed And we have a couple of questions that have come up and I'd like to share these we've learned from Charles Finley you asks Will the CT ID force for placing grades on traditional transcripts for individuals No, so Technologies overlap right traditional transcripts are not going away anytime soon I was in Penn Station recently and they have phone booths there. Yeah, telephoned in them right so Um This is going to be for probably quite some time parallel between traditional transcripts being issued and being issued in more updated digital ways and for new digital transcripts to Emerge alongside those where people might get both and then maybe they'll get the traditional embedded in a digital container and then they'll have some things that are only in digital credentials and so The CT ID is about us moving into that future and it's about the identifiers for those credentials and competencies not for a specific grade and And That's also it's worth noting. That's the CT ID for a particular version of that credential So say for example, I got a cybersecurity certificate in 2020 that's going to be a different CT ID Then when that program changes significantly and is offered in 2022 sure So in that case, you wouldn't change the grades or change the fact that that person achieved that 2020 credential But you would have a different basis for comparison, right? Because you wouldn't be able to see what characteristics are Different via the CTDL between the newer version and the prior version. Does that make sense? It makes sense to me. It's a it's a tricky moving target that you're trying to pin down I'm speaking at which we're not trying to pin it down. We're just going with that moving target Yeah And a little a little broader if we open the ones a little further We have a question from Ben who asks from your point of view for how much longer does the bachelor's degree have relevancy? Oh That's a loving question. I Think that Traditional degrees bachelor's masters PhDs MDs, etc. Those will continue to have relevancy for the foreseeable future However, I think that as we get more information about the The outcomes for individuals associated with What are now called alternative credentials, which is kind of crazy because Alternative credential way outnumber Degrees degrees are your measure of traditional credentials As we get more and more data about those and can use them more effectively Because we actually see how they build in career pathways more and more people are going to opt for those, right? They're they're typically going to be Shorter more targeted more geared toward the specific outcomes of an individual wants including this particular move in my in my career ladder or lattice so I Think fewer people will get bachelor's degrees, but I don't think that's a bad thing That would be a big step if it has it doesn't occur Thank you, but thank you for that very foresightful question Actually, a lot of people will probably not be happy to hear me say that I think fewer people get past those degrees, but you know, it's In in this world of very rapidly changing careers more people are going to need credentials and they May or may not need bachelors. So We had a follow-up question from from Phil right along those lines I think this would be the last one for for today Phil asks to what extent do you think credentials in the absence of skills described will persist? Well, one of the reasons that degrees persist and are still a primary sorting mechanism in Applicant screenings for jobs is because people assume for example hiring managers assume that they know What skills that credential represents? Right, so there and that's true for many different types of credentials and in some cases for example like certifications and licensures that this they do actually represent a very specific set of skills so Certain types of assumptions are going to continue But more and more alternative credentials are going to become successful credentials because they represent The skills and competencies they include So they could just come out compete the less ones. Yeah Yeah, but I have to pause now because we're right at the end of our hour I know we have just barrel along at top speed So many fantastic questions Let me just quickly ask What's the best way for people to catch up with you in person and is it your Twitter account Ariadne 2444? Yeah, that's one way to Great great news. Let's go to the credential engine website and there was a link on the shindig page to my email address there so So we can we can help with you there Thank you so much. This has been fantastic You've really given us a deep insight into this project, which is one way forward for the future of higher education Thank you so much. Well, thanks for having me here. It's been great My pleasure and don't go away friends because I should tell you about what happens next We have next week. We have a tutorial Forum with Ruben Puettadura where he's going to walk us through the Samur method Which is again this very important method for describing how teachers and instructors can change what they do to enhance it in the work of technology Ruben is a fantastic facilitator Just a great thinker And I'm really really looking forward to this and you can find out more just go to shindig.com slash login slash event slash Samur Now if you want to catch up on that session afterwards or this session afterwards or any number of nearly 200 sessions Just head to the video archive tiny world comm slash FTF archive And if you'd like to keep talking about all this great stuff including credentials and where they're headed Just join us on Twitter using the hashtag FTTE. You'll see there's already been a bunch of conversation today head to our our Facebook group or LinkedIn group or a select channel and we'd be delighted to hear from you in the meantime Thank you all so much friends today for fantastic questions. I really appreciate it I think we all learned a great deal. We'll see you next time online. Take care. Bye. Bye and happy new year