 Preview 1. Alexis de Tocqueville. NBC invites you to listen to the first of two discussion programs previewing NBC's dramatic radio series, Democracy in America, based on the classic work of Alexis de Tocqueville, a young French nobleman who visited the United States in 1831, 1832, at the time of President Andrew Jackson. De Tocqueville was so impressed with our new young nation that he wrote Democracy in America, acclaimed all over the world as the definitive book on America. It's interesting to note, Tocqueville's precepts are almost as true today as when they were first written. This weekly series of 14 half-hour dramatizations of American democratic life, based on de Tocqueville's book, will have its world premiere on the NBC radio network one week from tonight, Wednesday, January the 17th, at the same time over most of these NBC stations. And now preview one, Alexis de Tocqueville. And here's your moderator, Dorothy Gordon, known to you as the founder and moderator of Youth Forums and author of the book You and Democracy, a book for children. Miss Gordon. Well, here we are, sitting at a table in America, a Frenchman and an American woman, to talk about our American way of life. Now, Alexis de Tocqueville probably did the same thing when he was in America in 1831. Don't you think so much more is there? Yes, Miss Gordon. In fact, you know, de Tocqueville heard about the women in this country and his book Democracy in America. And I think if I can remember that he attributed the singular possibility and strengths of the people here to superiority of the women, I think maybe he was right. Oh, that's very good of you. And of course, the women cannot object to that, although it took some time for the men to realize it. Let me tell you. In the series of broadcasts that we're introducing, there is one devoted to the women as de Tocqueville saw them here. And incidentally, I'm afraid I'm failing in my duty as a woman. Oh, I think it's impossible. Don't believe it, but in what way? Well, you're a very good friend, but you know I failed to introduce you. I do want to do that. Monsieur Edouard Morussier is a cultural counselor to the French Embassy here in the United States. He represents the French universities and is a liaison between the universities in France and those here in America. He's a professor of philosophy and author of books in philosophy and innumerable articles. He's been responsible for much of the Franco-American cultural exchange programs. I ought to know because he arranged my trip to France in my youth forum broadcast over there. So you see, he was a logical person to help us introduce to you the de Tocqueville series, which will start on the NBC radio network January 17th. We also have two young people with us, a French student and an American. We'll ask them to introduce themselves. Will you, Joan? My name is Joan Healy, and I'm a freshman at Marymount Manhattan College. And, Joan? My name is Jean-Michel Giraud, and I'm a student at the French Leasee in New York. Well, now you just stay by because I'm going to talk with Monsieur Morussier and then afterwards you're coming into a discussion with us about democracy. Now, Monsieur Morussier, let's talk about de Tocqueville a bit. How do you feel about the idea of a series of broadcasts built around Alexis de Tocqueville's visit to America in 1831? Well, I think it's a wonderful idea for many reasons. First, because de Tocqueville's book is the best written in this country or in Europe on the United States. That's a basic book for the understanding of America and democracy. And I think it's to the right time to do it, because it is a time for a new understanding of our common idea of democracy in the United States and in France. Well, does the average Frenchman know the name de Tocqueville to the students? Are they familiar with the book? As I understand it, de Tocqueville's book Democracy in America was hailed immediately as the classic analysis of the society of the United States. And as a Frenchman living here, do you think America has preserved the ideals that de Tocqueville emphasized? Oh, may I quote my own experience. I remember very well when I heard de Tocqueville's name for the first time. It was in a high school in Paris at the beginning of a course of my teacher on the history of the United States. And he told us, well, there is only one book you have to read about the United States that's Democracy in America. And nobody in that time did better. Well, you read the book in French, of course. In French at that time, yes. But I think that all of the French students heard about de Tocqueville one day or another. And as you know, de Tocqueville is really the best interpreter of the United States and for the political scientist is a sort of model. Would you think that de Tocqueville and his companion Gustave de Beaumont were so impressed because they themselves were aristocrats and were not accustomed to see so much equality amongst the people? Yes, I think it's partly true. But I think there is another basic reason for that. It's because de Tocqueville belonged to a general society, you see, in Europe. And I think that there was a special atmosphere in Europe at that time about the United States. The United States was considered as a sort of utopia, a possible realization of democracy. Yes, because I remember that in one of de Tocqueville's sayings, if I remember it correctly, that he said that he was an aristocrat and never really understood liberty until he came here to the United States. That's right. But I think for any prejudiced Frenchman, the impression would have been the same. Well, now for instance, when de Tocqueville and Beaumont were to call on the governor of New York, that was in that period of the middle 19th century, they were astounded to find the governor living in a boarding house in New York City. But to a French aristocrat, this would be very astounding. Oh, sure. It was a very big surprise. Yes, but they didn't know that later on our governor would live in Albany in a palace just as the... Oh, well, that's a chance of time. Yes, this as time moves along. Well, you know, the dramatizations in the broadcasts are designed to bring to life the America of the 1830s. And the conversations are based on the actual words of de Tocqueville and Beaumont. Would you like to hear a bit of a scene when the two Frenchmen called on governor through New York? Oh, with the play. Well, let's hear that, shall we? You are taking notes, Mr. Tocqueville. I'm glad to see you do it. To take note of this, the American people dispersed over an immense territory, abounding in all the means of commercial greatness, who early found an opportunity of adapting their government to their circumstances. They followed the manifest order of nature when they adopted a constitution which was free, a constitution which was Republican and a constitution which was based on a commercial federation. That, Mr. Governor, was that desirable? No, sir. I will not comment on its desirability, except to say this. As far as we are concerned, it is infinitely desirable because it was wholly inevitable. Will you forgive me if I speak for a moment of your own country and speak to you privately as a man? We should be honored. Very well, sir. Your country too has recently passed through a great revolution, but one which I cannot help feeling has had a very different influence on your destiny. You will forgive the strong language, but I cannot help but remark that the course and indeed the catastrophe of the French Revolution has cast a gloom over Republicanism which perhaps it may never shake off and which renders it in Europe repulsive and discreditable, at least for the present. But here, sir, is the difference between your revolution and ours. The American Republic is the natural fruit of the American soil. The spirit of freedom may be impassioned, it may be fractious, but it is neither furious nor bloody. The strong bonds of union are here and will remain. There is a common language, there are common laws, there are common political attachments, and finally and above all, there is the great reciprocal bond of common interest. Remember this always, gentlemen. We live on trade. We live by trade, we live for trade. Trade is our life. And I tell you frankly, we all regard the carrying on of trade as something to which a man may honorably devote his whole life. And indeed, while we are talking today, a hundred ships are discharging their cargoes and a thousand emigrants from all parts of the globe are landing with big hearts and stout hopes to realize their dreams of a free and happy West. Mr. Morosea, do you think Governor Throop was correct in the statement he made about the difference in the French Revolution and the one in America as he was talking to Major de Tocqueville? Well, first, I think he was not absolutely correct when he said that the catastrophe of a bloody and furious French Revolution was responsible for the decline of a democratic face because we have not to forget that after all, the Napoleonic armies sprayed all over Europe revolutionary ideas and the 19th century was in Europe the era of awakening of nationalities and fights for new liberal constitution. But I think that he is right when he opposes a new revolution in a new country and a revolution in an old country. In an old country, a revolution is a fight for more freedom, for liberty, and it's something very different from the frontier spirit in the 18th century. Oh, yes, and then the difference in the people who came over here seeking religious liberty. In your position as cultural counselor, do you think that we are building up a culture of our own? I think sincerely. I think you have in this country a great literature. A new school of painting. A unique movement in architecture. And two, and that's part of the definition, the expression of a culture, a philosophy of education. It's why I strongly believe in the existence of a unique and original culture of the United States. And maybe two, you know, in our European ideal of culture, we think that a culture has to be expressed by a sort of human ideal. What we call in the 17th century, the 18th century, the honest man, later on the cultivated man or the gentleman. But I think that the United States too, from the beginning, produced that sort of human ideal. Permit me not to quote living examples. It would be delicate or embarrassing. But you have an ideal of culture people, like Jefferson, Franklin, Emerson. Oh yes, well they were the pioneers. But don't you feel that we did develop a certain type of culture in our music. Jazz, for instance, has, it's based on folklore and people don't realize that it really is something original and it is a sort of a contribution to the music. A sort of a contribution to the musical life which has been taken up by countries all over the world. Oh I think so. And I think that the jazz really was a revolution in the interpretation of music. And I remember that very well after the First World War. You got your first impression of jazz at that time. Oh yes. Well you know, I'd like you to hear another excerpt. This gives de Tocqueville's reaction to the emphasis on trade. In 2010, left the governor's boarding house, they heard the street sounds characteristic of the 1830s. Now let us listen to it and pretend that we're there. More noise. There is a band now. Surely the streets of New York must be the noisiest and busiest in the world. And yet, for all their bustle and prosperity, I feel all the time that we are walking about in a city which is nothing but one gigantic suburb. There they go, across the end of the street. Flags, banners, bands. What can all this be? This is a parade of tradesmen of mechanics. Look at them, look at the banners. The butcher, the baker, the candlestick maker. It is miraculous. Did you ever see such assurance, such confidence, such calm complacency with which these fellows hold up all the traffic? And listen to the cheers of the people. Yes, the governor told us that these people think that the carrying on of trade is something to which a man may honorably devote his whole life. And look at their clothes. Slee, coats, glossy hats, gay watch cards, and thosekin gloves. People, please cheers, boy. Mechanics. It is a right name for them. There is an unbelievable outright equality in America. The whole country has melted into a middle class. A remarkable thing. A country blessed with nature's richest gifts and selected by Providence for the noblest experiment tried by man, which is not only the civilization of a new world, but the practical establishment of principles that till now have only had an ideal existence. A great people which has no army, a country full of activity and vigor, where the action of the government is hardly perceived. A world given up to trade and equality. And proud of both. Of course it has a great deal more dramatization in the rest of the series. And then as you heard Dutocqueville emphasized equality. How do you think of the word equality? Are all men created equal? Oh, that's a very important and philosophical question. It's difficult to answer. But I think that it's not a fact, but an ideal. We have to work for the equality of people. Well, isn't it really that men are created equal in other ways to have the equal opportunity for life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, which is our Jeffersonian ideal of democracy. You know that we have two young people here in the studio with us. One is a Frenchman and a young American. And we could have the young people talk with each other and with us. Jean-Michel, I'm going to ask you. You know that Dutocqueville was here for 10 months when he wrote this book which became such a famous classic. How long have you been in America? Well, I've been here five years now. Oh, we expect a great big long book out of you. As you listen to us and to the excerpts, do you feel that Dutocqueville was justified in his impassioned feeling about liberty for all men? Well, I suddenly think that America and the United States is quite a good example of democratic realization. John? I would say that he had a reason for being so enthused, but I believe that if he lived now at the present time, he would have even greater reasons because since the time that Dutocqueville was here, we have had much greater advances such as in civil rights, legislation and other such legislation where he could see that his total views of equality would be realized. He seems to think only of the working class, the increase in their powers, but I should think that the slaves being freed and other such changes would make him even more elated than he was at that time. Jean-Michel, now, you're a Frenchman, you're living here. How do you compare life here and how do you feel about the young people in this country, their liberties and their freedoms? Do you think that they're freer here than they are in France? Well, do you mean one of you from the parents or from the state? Well, let's take a social standpoint. Do you think that the young people here express themselves more freely perhaps than the young people do in France? Well, let's see if he's smiling there across the table. Let's hear what Jean-Michel has to say. Well, I don't know quite exactly, but I think that in here you have more extracurricular activities and younger students write papers about more personal subjects and are trained to do this kind of work and to express themselves maybe more freely than in France. That is, they do express themselves, but I am sure that French students don't bother to express themselves if they wish to. Joan, are you familiar at all with foreign students? Do you find that the foreign students are as free in their opinions and in their expressions as the American young people are? Yes, I do, but I don't believe that there's a partisan as the American students would be towards such things as communism. I know in recent polls taken in France there has been much different opinion on such issues and I think that the American student more realizes the danger up against his country of certain influences in the world than a student in another country. They don't seem to think more in terms of economic alleviation at the present time rather than changes, rather than... Well, Jean-Michel, it seems to me that Joan has thrown a challenge out to you. Very much so. I do not quite agree. Go ahead and tell us. I think that personally, in France you have a wider choice in what you want to think. I mean, here in America you can help it, but if you have more socialistic ideas then there's generally the opinion here. Then you don't quite feel free to express yourself. But in France, since there are almost all kind of parties, political parties, you're always free to join when you want. How many sprinter parties do you have in France? Not too many now. Not too many now, but still you can either be a royalist even, or a communist. You've spent a great deal of time with young people. Do you agree with Jean-Michel or with Joanne? Oh, that's a very complicated thing to answer because I know very well university circles in France and in the United States. It's true that maybe the American students express himself more easily than the French ones. But in the counterpart, I think that the French students may be more trained to get a critical mind. And I remember I was a professor a few years ago and we were all used in France to say well, you have to discuss and to take a decision by yourself. So if we speak of liberty as a critical mind, I think the French students can compete very easily with the American one. Joanne, now it's your chance to defend yourself and the Americans too. My point of view was that the American student takes more of an interest say against, as I said before, communism or other elements in our society which might be dangerous to our future existence. I'm interrupting a minute, Joan, but I want to ask you, would you say that the American student feels the same way towards the extreme right? You use the word communist. What about the fascist? Because is the answer perhaps that the answer is the middle road the center, like your center party which has always been so strong in France do you find that the American student is anti-communist only or is the American student also anti-fascist? Well, I believe the average American student is sort of the middle of the road. However the most domineering students at the present time those who have the most interest seem to be those interested in the conservatism and those who are trying to fight communism. Therefore, I should think since they are the more dominant element in the student body, since they are more forceful that it would be their opinion which would be heard. Is it liberty, freedom of expression that bothers you? You feel that the French students can talk about communism and that doesn't mean that they are communist, does it? No, no absolutely not. No, there isn't this communist fear that there is here in France because there is a communist body which is I think getting a little weaker now and I don't know What would you say about that? Do you think that there isn't the fear of communism in France which you say that there is here? Well, it's not exactly the same problem, you see. I would say that the fight against communism is not actually the same way in France and in the United States because of very clear historical reasons. Yes. It's why I think it's very difficult to compare at the time and to say that maybe the French students or the American students have a stronger feeling for freedom. I think the feeling for freedom is as strong in this country as it is in France. Well, we have in relation to these broadcasts there is a book that was edited by George Probst who worked on the programs too called Happy Republic it's a reader in Tocqueville, America and it's quite an extraordinary book. You have a copy of it. Yes, I was very happy to get a copy and I think it's a very excellent book. Well, I think and this is related to the broadcasts and I personally feel it should be read by all the young people everywhere because the amount of research that went into it and I never realized how many French writers there were that had written about America with a tremendous amount of interest but there is one phrase here that I'm looking at now that I'd like to quote from and like to get an idea how Jean Michel and Joann feel. He said the first of the duties that are at this time imposed upon those who direct our affairs is to educate democracy to reawaken if possible its religious beliefs to purify its morals to regulate its actions now do you young people feel at all that democracy is taken for granted a great deal? Yes, Joann? I believe that at the present time we do not take democracy for granted we there are many, as I have mentioned before conservatives who are fighting for different causes and one of them is for equality under the law we have it now in words it is stated that we do have equality under the law however we know that in many areas Negroes are being denied their rights and other minority groups are being denied their rights therefore it is the aim of students now to bring forth to change the situation so that our democracy will be in reality a living democracy will be practiced for every single individual in the United States How do you feel about fashion? I think it is quite a noble purpose Do you feel that democracy is under fire today? I think as the dogville said the main thing about democracy is education to get people educated and able to choose and to act for themselves for a better democracy I am going to come to you Mr. Mugglesy around that question again I fully agree with the dogville because I think that it is true that democracy is a permanent fight a personal and collective fight and we have to never forget that we have to keep democracy we have to be very cautious and to be real fighters not in education and in politics Well thank you very much indeed I think this is a wonderful note on which to close our program it was so good of you Mr. Mugglesy to come and use you on Michelle I want to get your name right and Joan Healy I am very excited and interested in this whole thing and I am sure that everyone else will be thank you very much indeed Thank you very much Mr. Mugglesy You have been listening to preview one Alexis de Tocqueville the first of two discussion programs previewing NBC's dramatic radio series democracy in America based on the classic work of Alexis de Tocqueville this weekly series of 14 half hour dramatizations of American democratic life will have its world premiere on the NBC radio network one week from tonight Wednesday January the 17th at this same time over most of these NBC stations our moderator was Dorothy Gordon who had as her special guest Monsieur Edouard Morosir the cultural counselor to the French Embassy and two students Joan Healy and Jean-Michel Giraud preview two the second of these discussions will be heard next Tuesday night at 8.30 Eastern Standard Time at which time Dorothy Gordon will have as her guest Monsieur Hervé Alphan for the exact listening time in your area please consult your local newspaper this has been an NBC radio network presentation the launching of America's astronaut into orbit later this month on NBC Radio