 Hi everyone, I think we'll get started and I am very excited to be chairing this conversation, this panel, because I think we're really hearing all these different great stories about what each group is doing in its own area and what great initiatives are happening with education in different areas and how networks are collaborating to reach out in their community. But one thing that's still happening is that Repair, while it's something so crucially important to us in a fixed fest today, it's still very marginal in our communities as a whole. And how do we move to a place where Repair is indeed the norm, where there's no electronic waste or certainly a lot less than there is today, where everyone has options available to do what we think is the right thing, which is to reduce the amount of stuff that we have to manufacture and move to extending the life of things will be on what currently happens. And we have a wonderful set of panelists that will provide us with a lot of food for thought from different angles, from community repair perspective as well as from research done in some parts of the UK to the experiences of people that repair also in part for living. So it's all designed to help us start thinking about outside the normal box and we'll have a part two in the workshop format where we'll be able to explore more some of these topics going forward. And without losing any more time I give the floor to Jane Dixon from Sherry Repair Network. So I'm presenting the results of a survey that we did earlier this year which is essentially it's an astute survey and it was understanding the feelings and thoughts of consumers who were not necessarily involved in Sherry Repair Network. This is a general population survey and it was undertaken by a research agency on army half and so they surveyed a thousand people across Scotland, a fairly good geographic and demographic mix so it was the urban areas of central belt as well as more remote rural areas of the islands and islands. So just onto the results first and foremost, the headline figure of the first question is if an item of yours were broken would you look into repairing it and only 20% of people said no or they would be unlikely which means 80% of people were actually interested in potentially repairing something. But if we look at how many people had actually heard of community projects where they could get things repaired when prompted only 30% of people were aware. So people want to repair but they're not necessarily aware that there are projects out there that can help them. So I'm aware this is quite a dense slide with lots of information. But the headline for the first one is that if some people want to repair where they go for their information and that advice, overwhelmingly initially it's either the internet or it's friends and family. So if you look towards the end of that slide there's only 8% of people would actually go to a community repair project which ties in with the lack of awareness of the projects existing. Then if we look at which items would they consider repairing rather than buying new, top of the list is small electronics and clothing and fabrics which I think if you are involved in a community repair those are the sort of things most commonly coming through the door. But sadly the bottom row of figures will show that things that most commonly thrown away are small electrical items and clothing which probably reflects on the life cycle that people expect of those sorts of objects. Okay so this is a really another really striking figure. So the people who were asked, they thought that repairing and repairing projects was for everyone. They weren't looking at it, they weren't saying it's for hipsters or it's for students or it's for environmentalists. It's actually something that should be available to everyone to be involved in. And what would prompt you to visit a repair cafe, the first two are the really really practical standard figures and this comes out throughout the report. It's to save money. Saving money is really crucial and it's obviously getting something fixed. So people do care about the environment and they do care about waste but the money aspect is the most significant for them. And what would put people off visiting? Really again really really practical stuff. So the location is too far away and if the opening times aren't achievable. So this again is probably down to the number of projects available. If they haven't got a project available on their doorstep they're not likely to use it because it's convenience. It's a modern consumer approach I guess. Okay. What information would make you interested in visiting these projects? Again this is looking at really really practical, simple things that people want to know. It's information, what can I get repaired at a repair cafe? What time is it on? Where is it on? And yeah, how much would it cost me? This is an interesting one. What do you feel? How do you feel you would benefit from using a repair project? So just to say this survey did have a sharing project as well. So I just pulled out some of the elements that were relevant to repair or some sharing elements in there as well. Again the main benefit that people are looking at is saving money over and above anything else. And what would make you more likely to visit a repair project? Again it's coming back to practicality and money so if it were local it would be more interested in taking part and visiting a project. I'm going to skip over that because that's relevant to sharing projects. And then this again is sort of repeating essentially what I'm saying. What are the things that are most important to you? So the people who responded first off was cost saving. Followed by reducing environmental impact. And so the things that come further down to the community, the social interaction, the things that we actually, when you're involved in a project you know that a lovely about a project maybe from the outside initially if people aren't taking part that's not something that would initially be of interest to you. And again I mean if you want to have a look at that one but it's cost of living is the most agreed with statement about why people would take part in projects. So that's pretty much me. So in summary in terms of awareness there is overwhelming. People do want to repair things but they're not aware of projects necessarily. Cost is a really huge motivating factor. Info lust which is people really really want to understand in order to engage with the project they need to understand what it does and it's really basic things. When is it on where is it? Can I get to it? What can I get repaired? The social limits of people do think that repairing projects are for everyone but there is possibly one of the things that could you could interpret the data as saying that there's a lack of interest in the loveliness that we know that happens at repair projects. So that's maybe something once people are through the door they will appreciate how amazing it is to be involved. But it's actually a transactional interaction that will get them through the door first place they just want to get their stuff mended. And getting people across the line it really is just like what do we do? How do we go about doing that? There is currently even when we look at the figures there is higher awareness of these projects than there are people who have actually taken place. Okay and then my final slide is from the report that we did there were a few ideas about what could be taken forward but I think that's probably more of a question for the room then really rather than me specifically going through that. And then finally that's I work for the Secular Community Scotland, put the share repair network in Scotland and if you want to get a copy of the report you can download it and it's available. Hello everyone. Thank you very much. I was impressed just the left and right back. I've just still digested in my chickpea masala so you have to do it. It's kind of the lunch time slot isn't it? I've just prepared a few slides not too many and it's not as comprehensive as James is as far as data, it's far more of a conversation but hopefully you'll find it interesting. Well, let's move on. Who is Matt? I'm not really sure how I got here, not literally I did the drone but that was a few hours ago. My journey to this place here today is a bit strange because by day I work for a local authority although I try and keep that quiet most of the time. I've been a lot of council talk today so I'm trying to keep that on the low-down. Speak a bit close, can you hear me now? Excellent. Excellent. So yeah, how did I get in? That's better isn't it? It's much more low-down. I don't work for a local authority and I try to keep that quiet, quiet, hence I'm standing over there before. But I also run a side hustle business. Fixed workshop where it kind of started off as a little blog with all the kind of things that restart talk about, repair cafes talk about, and that was 2017, kind of the same sort of time a lot of these things start to gather real momentum. And I found real pleasure in sharing my repair stories with members of the public and on the back of that it's generated repair commission and interestingly looking at James data, you know, 60% female get things repaired, mine's probably a bit higher now. Most of the people in my inbox are ladies, one staff repair bloke, seemingly less engaged with repair. That's the thing. But yeah, through the website and through just generally being interested in repair, I've been involved in a little telly thing recently, retro electro workshop if you've heard of it, UKT, be able to give them a little plug. And I've been working on the site at Dunchack of Rob Howard and Shamil Dewan, and we've had a fantastic opportunity to talk about repair and show some repair of our radios and vintage retro tech on the TV channel. It's just finished now. It's still available on UKTV. Also duty bound to give them a plug. It's a really nice coffee table watch if you're into that sort of stuff. So it sits alongside the repair shop. I also write about repair as well and sustainability in a local magazine. And I've got a general tech background as well. So for 20 odd years, I worked for BT. I was an engineer, some train technician, that kind of stuff went to college and tried to find out how you do it better. And I'm kind of good, good practice. And I've also done some some interviews on radio Sussex, if you're down that way, talking about repair as well. So I guess I'm sort of fully immersed in repair, but it's not my main day job. He doesn't pay my mortgage, which we'll talk about, I guess, a bit later. So I guess for me, one of my observations around repair is, you know, it's still not the default option, you know, as we all know, then to tell you all about really. But in a couple of generations, you know, from my grandparents to my parents to now, you know, repair is not a default activity. And we're planned obsolescence, you know, mostly imported goods into the country with no support. You can see why that's come about. It's been a general removal of ownership from the things we have. And I think, just stepping away from the slides, I think, you know, when I work with younger people now, they almost need to ask permission to take something apart. You know, that's possible. They need permission to fix it. Am I allowed to do so? Of course you are. But they almost need that reassurance. And obviously there's the comparative across the skills. You know, I just went to, we're having a debate at home. Do I really need the Amazon Prime membership? You know, the ATO quid. You know, and if something goes wrong, it's just tempting. You know, Saturday night to click buy now. And then even on a Sunday, I can have a replacement item at home, you know, very next day, less than 12 hours time. You know, comparative cost of doing that versus, you know, wait for a repair company, wait for an expert, which could take months. Spare availability, access to spare parts. You know, I spend a lot of my time alongside my main day job, taking on really interesting repairs. And you can't get parts for stuff. So you have to get things made or find a specialist. And that's what the manufacturer will talk to you. And there's some really good examples of that and some really poor examples. And how do we overcome those things? And at the end of the day, it's a fashion society. Not my shirt, by the way, before you asked, but, you know, we've been, you know, society has changed me for my grandparents' generation, where they bought a hoover and expected it to last her life. So people change that hoover because it doesn't suit their new house decor, you know. That's an extreme example, but some of the things I talk about, you know, in writing on the blog and in print as well. I mean, the part of the programme was we majored on the one on TV. We majored on retro stuff because you could, it was just that vintage where you could repair something. Some of the older things, especially my colleague Rob was involved with, people making those, you know, the defiant radio, never ever saw built an obsolescence. The thing of beauty inside, you buy a Wi-Fi connected radio now, but you wouldn't expect it to last more than a pair of jeans. Things have changed. But things are looking up. Again, with my local authority, most local authorities have got a climate emergency board or some kind of entity within their establishment that talks about climate change and, you know, climate-type related activity to the Chinese, the Berlin on the environment. And that brings us, you know, knowledge and awareness of things that repair cafes are too a natural thing, aren't they? So when we talk about repair cafes, we talk about climate emergency. It's all kind of good environmental practice. But, you know, curbside or other waste electronics are still a problem. For council I work at, we recently introduced curbside and toaster collection, basically, is a lot to call it. So nothing bigger than a toaster, that kind of thing. Maybe a Hoover. We'll collect at the curbside and take it away. So it doesn't end up in the general waste stream. But, you know, listening to the lady from Suez, you know, our waste is nowhere near that advanced. And, you know, if you try to recover some of that stuff the other end to then repurpose it, repair it and redistribute it, we know we're near that. So there's regional variation, which is a problem. But, you know, it's becoming more mainstream. You know, everyone's seen probably the start of the repair shop, level, loathe it. It really does bring repair to the forefront of our minds. And it mages very much on emotional connection with items. But it gets the message out there. It's a national conversation. And maybe I'm a little bit envious I'm not on it, but there we are. But, yeah, things like James Maider reassembler, Maiden Britain, and inside the factory, I think, have also kind of followed on from anti to roccia, that point with things, the things we love, the things we take for granted. So things are looking up. But, you know, Repair Cafe is giving up their time for three, one minute, I'd better wind it up. Three rules, I'm going to wind up with a skip. So free resources, YouTube, that kind of stuff. Repair is easier than that. But there's some annoying tricks. Mine design can mean massive efficiencies. You know, a fridge made 50 years ago is nowhere near as sufficient as one made today. Some older products are downright dangerous. Some of the things that myself and Rob will work on would never be made now. And some older products are just not fit for the future. I'm just going to stick to my last slide. I believe that really to take everything we're talking about today and to the next level, we need to be embedded in the commercial world. I'm going to go slightly over time, but we need to be with the manufacturers at the heart of design and celebrate the design that's right now. There are pockets of good design out there, working a pneumatic hoover or working a Brompton bicycle. You know, they really do fully support their products end to end. And that should be celebrated. Oh, by the way, I don't work for these people, I'm just saying that, because I see it in my inbox. Department of Education and Centre for Government Policy need to be endorsing this right across roots in schools. My two daughters are five and seven, and they do forestry, which is fantastic. We live by the sea, so we've kind of connected to the downs and the seaside, but they talk about the animals and they talk about ecology. Now we're talking about repair, surely the two are linked, they are in my mind. And again, joint benches with commercial sectors on the high street, you know, as a council, we own a lot of property. And I know the government from Cornwall has moved things on a little bit and I'm quite conscious that I need to speak to him. And again, it's actually consistent messaging around the UK and wrapping up the promise, where actually, there isn't this disparity from Cornwall to Adenworth as well, I'd better leave it there. Thank you very much. This is my presentation, but you always do it like. Yeah, me last time. I'm just speaking on my presentation. Oh, yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Shall I go then? Sorry, I can't switch it off. She's on mine, yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. So I'm Bettina Gilbert. We work given a very strict five minute time limit. So I have not chosen not to do slides. But basically, I'm the head of technical support financial management for RAC, so you're probably going, who is that, what are you talking about? So my job basically is I work with a lot of, well, I lead the teams across all of RAC and I'll get to that in a minute, but predominantly working with people like local authorities to help them design and implement their recycling systems, their waste recovery systems, and also looking at reviews on things like HWRC sites. I also have a team that looks at public procurement, so driving demand for reused products, but also building repair and contracts and things like that. And the financial mechanism side is that I lead the team that actually looks it. So leading all of our delivery, all of our grants and loan schemes, guarantee schemes. So I'll pick up on that topic in a moment. So if you haven't heard RAC, basically what we are, we are a global NGO, Climate Change NGO. We have a very ambitious vision statement for a vision where a vision for a thriving world where climate change is no longer a problem. And I know that sounds very, very grand, but we are working in four to four countries around the globe and getting larger all the time. Basically, that is an evidence-based organization. So we have a lot of evidence-gathering. We're known for working plantally, so we get the right people in the room. We don't always deliver the interventions ourselves. We'll work with the networks that are already there, like yourselves. And then we basically go out and we try to join our charity in choosing that evidence and working with the right people. And you may notice, really, for our work around plastics, food, we're a global leader on food waste prevention or textiles. It might seem, it looks like resource management, so what happens to all those materials whenever people don't want them anymore? And you also may be familiar with some of our brands, like Low Food Hate Waste or In Wales, the Be My New Recycling Campaign. If you buy some packaging and you see our swish in there and we swish with a heart on it, that's wrap. And also, Recycle Now. So if you live in England, you can use your branding around recycling, all that messaging, all the signage you see, that's all wrap. So that gives you an idea of who we are. In Wales, I lead a team that is working with the Welsh Government to help them deliver their very ambitious targets for zero waste. So in Wales, our recycling rate is about 64%, our third best in the nation, and the Welsh Government is now looking at, well, actually, less but further up the waste hierarchy, where waste is no longer a problem, so we can have zero waste to landfill. So we're providing them with quite a lot of policy support. So we do that through developing things like guidance and case studies, but we've also done two recent pieces of research in Wales which haven't been published yet, but have very similar findings from yours. So that first piece of research is looking at the skills needed in Wales to increase reuse and repair, what's needed from a skills basis to normalize activity and really grow that economy. And the other bit is around consumer behavior. So we've also looked at the people's attitudes and behaviors towards both reuse and repair. Really similar findings on those. So we found that 70% on average are receptive to repair, but only about 36% of people who had an item that needed repair were getting out and repaired. And in terms of the repair cafes, in Wales where there's actually a policy driver and a target in the Programme for Government for 80 repair cafes around the nation, we found that about a third were familiar with repair cafes, but 44% said that they would engage them. No, I think that's probably a bit conservative. They don't know what it is. They don't know the benefits. We could probably bring that number up. But I think that really highlights the question today is how we normalize these behaviors. And right before I finish, I'm gonna throw a little bit of a challenge out there and do something for discussion. But the other thing that we wanted to do today, because we are an evidence-based organization and we are a global organization, is just give you guys some kind of, you probably already know this, but I just wanted to celebrate the importance of your work a little bit. So we're now in a global economy according to Circle Economy, which is a Dutch organization. They used something called the Circularity Act Report, it's randomly, it's a global report. This year, they say that the global economy is only 7.2% circular, so they have a way of measuring this, right? This is declining every year. Now for us to live in our planetary boundaries, which are the boundaries that make it habitable for human life on this planet, we have to reduce our consumption of materials and extraction by a third. And the way that happens is through the circular economy, it's through what you guys are doing, it's by keeping items in use for longer, by repairing them, by not using so many materials. And so following up on that, that's not for our research, so of course I'm just gonna start our research to close off. We've done some data gathering two cells actually, first we did it in the UK and then we did it bigger for the G7. So in the G7, if we make better use of our products by extending the product lifetime, we would save 525 million tons of carbon emissions each year, right? And that's, yeah, so that's just in the G7. So if everybody was organic, if we were able to normalize repair, right, the benefits of that are massive. So I was gonna just kind of finish off on there and the last thing I wanted to say is because I need a team that's in charge of funding mechanisms, I'm really curious to explore all of the incentives that are available to us to normalize repair. I know in France recently as part of, I think it's probably part of their textile is exempt from producer responsibility program. They've launched a voucher or a pair of voucher for clothing to incentivize consumers. So it helps satisfy the cost of repair, to incentivize consumers to repair the clothing. So I would say, let's help talk about all the tools that are available to us to normalize repair, including investment in those kinds of incentives. So that's it, thank you. In France, the same measure exists also for electrical electronics. Ah, there we go. And not just in France, also in Austria. Yeah, yeah. So it's possible. That's right. Thank you very much. So I'm Crystal Courtney. I was involved in setting up a pair of Café Belfast five and a half years ago and we have since helped nine other communities to start repair cafes in Northern Ireland. I have no research, I'm gonna speak very anecdotally about my experience and what I've witnessed and I'm sure you've all seen a lot of things happen in your repair cafe and have a lot of interactions with people who come. I'd like to start by flipping a topic and maybe taking a step back and saying, actually it is repair that is normal and the way that we have been throwing stuff out for the last decade or a few decades, that's what's not normal. And I think actually what community repair is doing is unearthing that reality that's just below the surface in our communities and for the people that come. We're helping people to kind of rediscover that and helping our communities to rediscover that. Oh, I lost one of my slides. Oh, there it is. This is some feedback from what our visitors have said and I think it's really interesting what Jane was saying about all the different reasons that people have for coming to a repair cafe. And one of the things that's beautiful is you don't really need to know about the waste crisis and the environmental crisis to come to a repair cafe. You can have a lot of different motivations and it can be as simple as my toaster doesn't work to come through that door. People have a lot of different reasons but whatever the reason we see often visible relief their shoulders drop, they find something they can do about their broken item. For some people that's relief at a discomfort at the way we're living and the feeling that it's not, doesn't feel good, it's not sustainable, it's a cause of anxiety. And also this sense that it's not about me as an individual having to fix this toaster or fix the system. Actually we can come together in a community space and do it together. Half of the people who come to our repair cafe at Belfast are there for the first time each time. We move around different venues across our city so that we meet a lot of different people. And I think that has really helped us to get out and meet more people. And repair cafes just often really make sense to people. And I think we maybe all see that when they come. It's like, I wish I'd discovered you sooner. This is so sensible and so enjoyable and so helping me in so many ways to get my stuff fixed. I think a bathroom is actually a different PowerPoint on that show than anyone. I'm just gonna look at lovely pictures of repair cafe at Belfast. I think there's also a sense of relief and joy among our fixers and volunteers to be able to do something, to be able to contribute, to be able to help people, to see their skills being appreciated and made visible. One of the things that people ask when it was a concern for me when I was first getting started because I'm not a great fixer myself. What inevitably when we talk to another community about starting a repair cafe, they say, but where do you find these skills? And sometimes people walk into a repair cafe room with all this stuff going on and they say, isn't it a shame we don't have these skills anymore? And it's almost like, would you like to look around the room? Because the skills are there. They are in our communities but they have been privatized into garden sheds and our kitchen tables. And they are not, even when we bring them out into the open in a repair cafe and give them a place where they can be celebrated and appreciated and made visible, they're not necessarily seen in a way that is quantified by the economy. And so they are not necessarily recorded or appreciated in the way that we appreciate them because we see them and we know they're part of what we do. When I look around a repair cafe room, I see a huge cross-section of people from different walks of life, different ages, mentioned about different motivations for being there. And I think we put a lot of emphasis on making our events really get in the atmosphere right and making them really fun, both for our volunteers, because then they keep coming back and trying not to miss one and really enjoy it. But also for the people to come in to get something fixed. And so it becomes more than just about convenience and getting something repaired. The impact that we can have is about fixing the item, but it can also be a deeper experience because people have come and had a really enjoyable morning and they've not wanted to leave. And they've had a personal connection with the person who's fixing their thing. So it's not only that they got it fixed, but they kind of learned from that person and they saw that person and they saw their skills. And because it's happening in that context, it can be much more transformational than just, I got my phone fixed at the phone shop and that's great because I didn't have to buy a new one. It can actually, and we hear this and one of the quotes on the thing if it's gonna come up, was about a woman who came and she got one chair fixed and she was part of it and she was showing what to do and she said, I'm going home now to fix the other five myself. And we see all the time people who come and they see what other repairs are taking place and what else is possible to fix. And they are, we hope, going home and thinking in you about their stuff and about their relationship with their stuff because our stuff matters and the way we treat our stuff relates to the way we treat each other and the way we treat our planet. And I think repair cafes can give a glimpse of a different reality about that. So there's so much interest in appetite, but many of our repair cafe groups are entirely voluntary, many are small groups. And we've talked today also about the potential to do other things and for it to become a business and that is right for some projects to go in that direction. But I think there is also still a really valuable place for that community-led response because we are in there in the community and involving a lot of people. We've gone from one to 10 repair cafes in Northern Ireland in five years with a small, small amount of funding, a few days of paid work over those five years. Imagine what we could do with just a little bit more practical support and resource and without a pandemic in the meantime. It goes a long way towards normalising repair and having repair in every town and community. So for those who are thinking about the public sector or what could be done, my first question is ask what your local group needs rather than a student you know because we've been offered to do publicity and we've been asked to come to events and take part in things. It's not always where we're coming from, what we want to do and what's going to actually help us. Peter talked this morning about the small, small amount of leeway that councils have with their budgets. They are still dealing with massive amounts of premises, of support, of land, of staff capacity which is huge compared to what small volunteer groups have. So there may be things that you can help if you don't even realise. Sometimes it is about funding but sometimes it's just about a bit of capacity and a bit of back up. The idea of insurance feels like it's a massive issue to get over and if insurance was resolved I think that would help us all practically speaking. Sorry, I'm glancing at my darts. I think that's all I want to say that I think there's still a really important place for the community aspect of what we do and for repair to continue at a community level as well as becoming more of the economy more of a part that is moving into this. Thank you. Great to get all these different angles. I guess before moving into workshop mode I wanted to ask a question and then ask if there's a couple of questions from the room. Is my question and perhaps it could go to both Jane and Chris is we've seen a multiplication and expansion of the number of groups that do community repair and obviously here we are representing the repair community through community repair groups but it's hard to imagine a world where there's enough community repair to really take care of all the repair that needs happening. So how do you see the best role that our initiatives can have in helping create the conditions for repair to thrive more 360 degrees in our own communities and all of you are happy to, I mean are welcome to answer but I'm particularly interested from your angle to begin with if you have any thought or if others want to answer that, that's good too. Like I often describe repair coffee as a first stage clinic for your stuff and it's like primary care, isn't it? And so actually there is universal coverage of GPs in primary care, healthcare in our communities but often things need to go to the hospital, they need a more specialist tool or more time or whatever and I think repair cafes can be a gateway for people and we've been struggling to know how to capture the repair businesses that are in our community. We don't have the capacity to research that, we cannot get the council interested in producing some kind of guide or anything but we would like to know where to sign post people on to and I think, I mean I can see a world where there's a repair cafe available to everybody in Northern Ireland and I'm excited about that world but it's never gonna fix everything because it's not about that, it's about reaching out, changing the attitudes, changing people's relationship, removing that level of intimidation about getting something repaired because it's a very friendly welcoming space but then we need places to point people on to and we can't do all that. Yeah, I'd agree in terms of the big contribution, obviously repair cafes like it. Sorry, can we have a mic down the side? Oh, sorry. What, we don't know where it is, so can you go back there? Okay, go ahead. Yeah, I'll just stand here. You can stand here. I'll stand here, sorry. It was, yeah, I was just gonna make a small point just what repair cafes contribute is a huge amount but what they can contribute massively is attitude and all change and I think it's within, it's within jigsaw of lots of other things happening. It's not that repair cafes or repair budgets can be the ultimate answer to everything but they're a part of the solution and as well as fixing stuff and I think your analogy of being the GP of the repair one is a really good idea but yeah, attitude change I think and this evidence that anecdotal evidence and real evidence that people do get a sense of what can be changed and what can be repaired once they start there. Yeah, I'd like to add to that too. Okay. Well, okay, more conversation, more conversation of this will happen in the workshop part but if there's two short questions from the floor, yeah, start over there and then you and then we'll just move to the other side and I'll explain how it's going to work. So I have a short question but I don't think the answer will be short but basically in terms of normalizing repair how do we expect a normalized repair where invested in selling us more things and have conditioned us to actually want the next shiny object? Yeah, that is an extra question on that relates to some of the interest in the panel on policies I think and we shouldn't just focus on what we can do in the community for sure but I think it's a good foot for thought for the second part. What was your point? Yes, Matt, and I'm a huge fan of retro electrode. Yes! And I'm a huge fan because I like repair cafe people that weep copiously over the repairs but essentially that has happened with the other programs that I like particularly. Can I just say two things? First of all, the introduction suggests that there are very few people around that do these kind of repairs. Please look at the repair cafe movement across the country. We're all there, all those old folks that fixed up, we're all still there, so please get to stop saying that. And second point, this is the question, will there be a second series, please? We're all waiting for a fake repair. Can I hear you? Hello. It doesn't work, does it? It does. We'll wait for a fake repair on the second series, but yeah, I think Rob and I especially cringed when we sort of hear last repairs because it just, it's like that. And again, when you sort of look at a room like this and this is just the tip of the iceberg and I don't know who said it, someone said, you know, basically repair has gone into the shadows. You know, my dad used to work for an indie set, High Street Repair, it's like Rundalos, do you remember them? Yeah. And he would repair washing machines and dishwashers, but that sort of shrunk into the shadows, you know, and if you're in London, you know, a sort of spin doctor who's made a career for himself, you know, renting machines, but this was more ubiquitous years ago. But the skills are there, they just need, they've shrunk into the kitchen. We don't have more time, sorry. We have to go to the other rooms. Sorry to work in groups and we'll go to the other room in next to all the stalls. I'll welcome all of you and we'll split in groups. Each of the panelists will be on a table and I'll be on a table as well. I guess we'll be trying to follow on the key points that they made and if there's some points that you want to make that are not covered or unrelated to theirs, come and join my table and we'll have exactly 30 minutes in groups and then we'll still be there and report back on the key ideas that have come up. Thank you.