 And ironically, I got an email asking us to talk louder and talk into our mics so they can hear us on TV. So I guess that works out pretty good. And then with that I will ask for the roll call. We have a quorum and I will call the committee of the whole meeting to order. And I will ask for approval of minutes of the last meeting held July 10, 2006. Motion is second. Is there any discussion? All in favor, signify by saying aye. Aye. Chair votes aye. Motion passes. Any opposed? Motion passes. With that we'll start with the presentation regarding the Sheboygan pedestrian bridge and I will turn over to Tom Holton. Thank you Mr. Chairman and good evening everybody. As you all know, we've been talking about pedestrian bridge in the south pier area for probably three, four, five years, probably something like that. And we have a couple of gentlemen here that have been working with us on coming up with a concept plan for the bridge. Mr. Ed Freer from JJR to Madison, they were the planners for the south pier project and that will give some background on south pier and some of the reasonings behind the bridge and we have Miguel Rosales who's designed the bridge. He's very world renowned on bridge design so we're very fortunate to have him working on the project with us with that and I'll turn it over to Ed. Thanks for having us. I see a few familiar faces and I see some new faces. How many people were involved in the original planning effort if I could see a show of hands? I don't want to bore you but I do want to at least bring people up to speed if that's okay. Behind me here we have, actually it's quite an old drawing and it resembles a lot of what's going on. There are a few things that are different but in concept I think it's an appropriate drawing to use to explain a few things. Can everybody hear me okay? After I don't know how many decades of having fuel tanks out here and your major coal pile was right here, we are hired to look at a few of the alternatives of how to develop or redevelop the approximate 40 acres and so there was the issue of what should it be? We came up with a couple of alternatives. We went through a public process and then the consensus plan pretty much became the foundation for this plan and what it really is is that it's a mixed use waterfront district and it's broken up into a couple of sub areas and you can see between the fish cleaning station and some of the buildings that are going in along the river, the idea was to emulate the shanties and create kind of a shanty district, rebuild the bulkhead, create a promenade, a riverfront promenade that complements the existing one on the upland side of the river and then take advantage of the navigational channel, maintain maritime activity, honor some of the historic uses, take advantage of the navigational channel and the federal breakwall to at some point in the future reserve that area for larger commercial vessel traffic tied into the marina which was over here in terms of launch activity, transient dockage, again tourism and make it a viable working, maintain it as a viable working but also recreation and tourism. So the bulkhead was rebuilt, the site was cleaned up, the beach, the sand dunes, there was a restoration plan that restored the dunes and started replanting beach grass and native vegetation. Then we came up with the middle of it as kind of a mixed use, you could live, work, shop type of activity. So the core of the project is evolving everything from entertainment as you see some of the buildings going in but eventually we're hopeful that housing will go in there. Housing has gone in to the side of the water park resort and that was part of its condominium type use and that was part of the economic formula to make the resort happen. So now we've got a destination resort, some investment housing, year round housing, work play and then a shanty district. We talked a lot about the industrial use, it was decided that it should stay and let the market drive that. So when the time is right, the streets are laid out and the plan can evolve so that this district can then move towards Indiana and fulfill final development of that area. I think an important aspect and one of the founding principles throughout the whole planning process was to ensure 24-hour public access. That was critical to the plan and that was reinforced by the public. So the whole perimeter of the peninsula is publicly accessible whether you want to just go for a walk, a run, come out here early in the morning and fish, there's public parking here, there's public parking on the streets. The streets are laid out in such a way very comparable to what you see in downtown or some of the neighborhoods, it's all interconnected. There are no dead ends, there are no cul-de-sacs. So in terms of safety and service and enhancing development, the streets were laid out that way. The city then as part of the plan put in all the infrastructure, the streets, the lights, the street trees and the sidewalks. In addition to that, there are a number of public spaces or plazas and promenades that then tie the river side to the lakeside of the project or allow for different circulation patterns through it. Because of the river in the 8th Street bridge, we were looking for another opportunity to negotiate the connection to the landside. One of those opportunities is the idea of a water taxi. It's easy to tie it into the marina and one thought was, well, what if we ferry people over there? That was a consideration and it can still happen on the short term. But four years ago one of the big ideas then was to incorporate a pedestrian bridge. As I explained earlier, this is a federal navigation channel that supports a lot of navigational use upriver, especially in terms of sailboats and larger vessels. So this bridge was replaced what, six years ago? So almost ten years ago. Wow. How easy we forget. So this has been a major upgrade ten years ago. It was important to honor and maintain that federal navigational channel. So the idea was discussed of this possibly being a movable bridge, not for vehicular use but for pedestrian use. That does a number of things. First of all, it takes a waterfront district or neighborhood and connects it to the mainland and especially to the downtown. So the downtown, this becomes an extension of the downtown. You could eventually, as this gets built out, you could live here across the bridge and walk to work downtown. From an economic standpoint, it extends the visitation and the experience whether you're a tourist or you're there for retail activity. It also is a pivotal element in terms of energizing the existing shanty retail on the inland side of the river. So now the retail here and the retail here start acting as a sub-district and the bridge is a key element. So I've got cultural ties, residential ties, work-live ties and business ties. The other thing it does is it ties this activity, this destination activity as I said earlier to the investment in the marina. Whether I go by launch, water taxi, or I'm a transient voter, I come to Sheboygan, I'm traveling with a bicycle, I get on the bicycle, I go through the neighborhood, pass the armory along the river walk across the bridge, now I'm down at South Pier. What it also does for the general public in terms of a resident perspective, it now ties the beach, the fishing to the mainland. It also ties the South Beach which is down here to the North Beach. So I connect one beach to the other beach. It also becomes a destination from a county perspective. You can go from this beach or the South Beach across the bridge which aligns with Virginia which is a dedicated bike route. You can start here as a visitor or a resident and go all the way west of Kolar to the western end of the state to the, it's called the Plank Road Trail. I'm not sure if it's connected all the way to Fond du Lac but it's pretty darn close. So you can actually take a bike from Fond du Lac to Lake Michigan and this bridge then completes the final gap. So you can see a number of reasons for how the plan evolved and what an integral part this bridge has been from the early conception of the master plan. These bulkheads, these plazas, they were all designed and planned in anticipation for that missing link and key. So as we got to a point here, Miguel and his former partner Fred Godemiller, we've, the two firms have collaborated prior and then we kept talking about this and Miguel would call me and say, is it ready for the bridge? And I would say not yet, not yet. So as the project evolved, the infrastructure was put in place, it was time to call in Miguel. So Miguel put a project proposal together to look at a couple of alternatives, look at different technology and then assess what are my costs. And so I'm not going to steal his thunder. Miguel will now walk us through the design process and some of his experience and background which hopefully will hopefully explain how we went from this magic marker drawing and concept plan to this wonderfully crafted model. And I could tell you a lot about that but I don't want to steal his thunder. I want to do a wonderful job explaining it. Is there anything I need to clarify or that I missed? Is there any questions from the Alderman? Alderman, Hannah? Yes. Do we have a projected incremental economic impact of a pedestrian bridge being added? When we've done this in other areas, what has been the result? I don't have exact numbers and we haven't been engaged to do a study but I would wager that there's a number of reasons. It's more plus than negative and I think if you go down to Milwaukee there's a perfect example of the new Calatrava addition to the museum. It not only attracts tourists from Wisconsin, it attracts tourists from the region as well as other parts of the world. So it becomes a tourist destination from the other parts of the world and the country. The other thing it does is you have economic benefit for the reasons I just explained. With the pedestrian bridge here it reduces the risk for a retailer or a development investment on the district and the peninsula. So there's an economic gain there where it makes it more developer friendly or reducing the risk. And for those of you that have lived here I don't live here but I've been visiting here for probably close to 20 years. There has been some turnover in the businesses here. By creating more of a critical mass it will reduce the turnover and it will increase I'll use a kind of a suburban retail term cluster retailing or that cluster appeal. There's a cluster of restaurants, cluster of shops. So by increasing that critical mass you elevate the attractiveness as a destination to reduce the economic risk in terms of success. Paulette, is there anything from the planning and economics that might support some of that? There haven't been any studies, correct? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. My question really is in regards to the 9th District Coast Guard in Cleveland, Ohio what type of regulations do we have to clear blocking and navigational waterway? What type of permits and things are required? That's a big hurdle in this particular in this matter. It's no different than the 8th Street Bridge. The 8th Street Bridge has been existing there for the last hundred or so years. This is a brand new hurdle going into the river. What type of regulations are in place for such a thing? You've got all your permitting and regulations. You have to talk to the Coast Guard, the Corps, the DNR, all those folks. It's not a carte blanche. I want to be perfectly clear on that. However, this current design, again this is a concept, all of what you speak of is part of the actual next level of design. So we're not there yet. That's why we want to get this approved and go to the next phase. The conceptual design, and again I'll let Miguel address some of this, does not compromise navigation ability or the river channel. It honors the federal channel. It does not compromise that. And it would have to honor that. No other questions? Then we will continue. Miguel? During the summer months, a lot of these bridges operate on 20-minute schedules so that the sailboats and then the larger commercial vessels can get through. Whether you're in receipt, whether you're in two rivers, I'm not sure what the 8th Street Bridge schedule is. And then as you get on the shoulder seas and sometimes those bridges from the water side are on point. And then as you get on the shoulder seas and sometimes the bridge is from the water side or on call, you signal to the bridge tender. One of the concepts we're talking about here is to think of... Sir, if you could just speak in the mic so the TV can hear. Since we're waiting. Thank you. One of the thoughts here is that we think of it in reverse. A vehicular bridge we like to maintain the vehicular access because of business and emergency and then we open it up to accommodate the navigational traffic. The thought here is that the bridge would be open and then close on 20-minute or 30-minute intervals during high season. So it'd be kind of a reverse thinking so that the priority is given to the waterway and then the secondary operational mode is given to the pedestrian. So if I'm going to have lunch down there working downtown, I know the bridge will be closed at 12 o'clock. I make sure I'm there at 5 or 12, walk across, meet my friends for lunch. So it's that kind of a thought pattern going. There was a pedestrian bridge proposed there. It's a very small pedestrian bridge. It's about... I think like 260 feet wide long and the bridge cost 4.5 million dollars. That was the cost to the construction of the bridge. But recently I was there and the mayor told me they have had approximately 125 million dollars now development. And that's because they have started to build many buildings around the bridge trying to look at the structure. So they have more than pay off the investment on the bridge. And I'm going to show you one of those... I want to show you that bridge here. My experience basically is in the design of bridges. I only work on bridges and we have a national firm and we have been involved in many landmark bridges across the U.S. and there are some examples so you can get an idea of the type of work that we do. The first bridge that I started working about almost 20 years ago is the second bridge in Boston. This bridge is a new cable state bridge and is located very close to the downtown. It's a new gateway into the city. There used to be an existing bridge that you can see here, here. And it was a very unattractive trust bridge. And the city wanted to change that. So they have a new interstate bridge that will have more of a presence going into the city. So the new design was developed about 10 years ago and it's been recently completed. It's a very wide bridge. It's 10 lanes. Of course, it's a very interesting bridge. But there was a lot of concern in terms of how to make it aesthetic and how to make it attractive. And it's a very interesting bridge because it has a special kind of cable arrangement that's very unique. This is some view from one side and at night it's also illuminated. And I have to tell you that once the bridge was completed, it really changed the whole image of the whole area. And it has created new parks, new development, new buildings going across. So it really changed that whole area. And there was a lot of concern because it's a very modern bridge and Boston is very traditional. And they were afraid of doing something so modern, but now it is very happy with the design. This is another bridge that worked some years back. This is in Panama. It's over the Panama Canal. And here the government wanted to make a very large bridge because the canal is expanding. And right now they have very big boats that they want to come into the canal and the clearance is not big enough. So it's a cable state bridge but it's also very light. It's a very light structure that was built very quickly. And it's a concrete structure that has a tower just in the middle with a single plane of cables in the middle. And it tries to mimic like a sailboat, something very marine. There's some other views of the bridge. Of course they are very proud of the structure and it really is a sort of national pride now in the country. This is a smaller bridge. This one is in Des Moines, Iowa. And here the city had always had arch bridges over the Des Moines River. But they never had a bridge that had an arch going over the highway. And they never had that kind of presence. And we proposed this bridge for them and it's very much aligned with their highest tower. And they wanted to have this kind of frame, you know, going into the city. And it was built recently. It's also illuminated at night. It's a very simple structure but it has a lot of thought in terms of the detailing. And there's another view of it. Together with this bridge the city also decided to do three pedestrian bridges. And we continue to kind of follow that same theme, you know, of the blue arches. And these are some of the pedestrian bridges that have been built after the main bridge was proposed. This bridge is interesting because usually what happens is that you have a big cage here because it's going over the interstate, I-235. And we proposed this fence here that is curved and it's very high on this point and it's low here. So it actually gives you the safety but at the same time doesn't interrupt the aesthetics of the design. These are some views of it. And it connects two different schools. And before the crossing was kind of very unattractive and people were not using it and now it's really a destination and a lot of people are using the bridge crossing from one side to the other. This is another project. This one is in Washington DC. It's a very large bridge where we work in the competition concept. This bridge is 12 lanes wide. But it's supposed to look very light and that's what we have this kind of B-shaped piers that kind of follow the tradition of having arches. But they're not really arches. It's like a new interpretation of an arch. There's a lot of arch bridges in Washington DC. But we wanted to do something that will relate to the arches but have kind of a different appearance. And one of the things that is interesting about it is that the way it opens is a bascule structure similar to the one that you have here. But the bascule is open and it's kind of hidden. So when it's closed, there is the flow of the structure is not interrupted. So you continue to have the same kind of appearance. So it doesn't have that big break with the bascule span. And this is the construction of it. It's almost finished. One of them has been finished one side and the second part will be finished in 2008. And the last project example is this project in Greenville, South Carolina. It's the project I was mentioning to you. It's a $4.5 million and now has created a lot of new development in the area. It's the bridge that is located in the park. And it has a waterfall next to it that is here. And the waterfall was hidden for many, many years in the 1960s when we had a highway going over the waterfall. And the mayor decided to change that and demolish the highway and put a new pedestrian bridge. And we thought that the pedestrian bridge should be curved away from the waterfall. So when you are standing here, you can look at the water and it really creates like a promenade looking into the area. And it's incredible how the whole area is changing so much. There is so many more buildings along Main Street that is located here because of the way the park and the bridge are working together. It's a very light structure. It's a suspension bridge. But it's unique because it's only suspended from one side. Usually you have cables on both sides but this one only has one cable on one side. And it's away from the waterfall. So when you are standing in the bridge and looking out, then you have this kind of theater in the back with the cables. It's another view of it. And you can see how it's integrated into the waterfall. And I always feel like it's very important to make them very light and very transparent. So you can see the trees through and it doesn't really block your view. And we did this type of railings and details that allow it to be quite light. And also it's illuminated at night. And one of the main features is that the surface where the people walk has this light blue color. And this light is hidden in the railing. So you never see the light only when it comes at night. And it's very dramatic. It's kind of the most romantic area now for people to walk at night. All the couples go and walk next to the waterfall. And now I want to show you the project that I have proposed here for Sheboygan. It's an interesting site because you have two kind of axes going in different directions. You have this big promenade that goes to the water and goes to the beaches here in one direction. And then you have this street going in the other direction. And it was not possible to just make a bridge that goes completely straight because you have these two existing bridge that connect. And it's a very flat area. You have very low buildings that allow to do like an interesting bridge that if it's high, you should be able to see it from a long distance. And that will be of interest because then people will kind of mark the area and have like a new image for that area. And one of the challenges here is that you basically have about 220 feet here or span. And the navigation channel for the coast guard should be about 150 feet or so. So that means that the bridge should be very much open. Somehow there should be a structure that allows to have that big span. And these are basically the constraints that you have. You have the navigation channel that you will need to get a permit from the coast guard because it's in navigable water. You have these two access points, the two red dots that I think should not be changed. At one point we thought about maybe just putting the bridge straight. But I think it's very interesting that these bridge ends at the end of this street. And this is actually in a hill. So if you are here, you should be able to see the entrance of the bridge. And also in this area you have a big axis here. So it was also interesting to have some kind of point there at the end. Then you have the clearance envelope. Of course you have very very clear area that needs to be preserved. So we thought about a basketball bridge or a swing bridge. Something that would allow it to be clear. The cost and the construction schedule we feel like this bridge could be completed in about two and a half years, including the final design. And the total cost would be about five million dollars. And we would not take any of the existing buildings. Everything that is in the fabric there will be preserved. Trying to integrate it as much as possible. And you can see here one of the axis points for the bridge on one side and then from the other side. And we study different shapes of how to make the crossing. And finally we came with this S shape for the crossing. And what it allows you to do is like to navigate the two axes and make something very smooth between the connection of the two. And also when you are walking on a curb, it's always softer and it's always nicer for people in a bicycle or in a pedestrian to have a curb because that's how the people walk. And we said that if you make it a straight line, it will be very abrupt. Because you will very quickly make a connection just like that. With a curb it makes it much more smooth. Especially if you are with a baby carriage or you are walking slowly. And this is the proposal for the new alignment. You could have done a basketball bridge, like the bridge that you have right now that basically opens up. But it's 220 feet wide. So if you make two basketballs, it will be very big to open 100 feet. Now your navigation channel is very small where the existing bridge is. And this one will need to be much bigger. So I thought a swing bridge would be better for this location. Something that will swing and it will open. And this is what you have here. One thing that is important is that you have already this control tower here in this location. And although you cannot see the bridge, particularly from this location, this controller could also control the other one with the installation of some cameras that will announce that you have people coming in a boat. And usually that you could also coordinate it. Now if one bridge opens, the other one will open at the same time. So you have that coordination and you already have this facility that could be incorporated into the other one. So that's something that is already existing there. And this is the proposal for the bridge. It's a cable structure and it has two main towers that are 50 feet high. And they are marking in the axis of the boat location. So if you are either in this direction or in this direction, you should be able to see the tower from a distance. And then there are three cables that are stable, that stabilize the tower. So the tower is kind of rigid. And it has a rotation here at the top. So it's kind of like something that rotates at the top, kind of like one thing inside the other one. And then these cables here move with this location and then they will open in one direction or open in the other direction. I would like to show you afterwards the model and we can operate and you can see how it opens. This is the view from above. The yellow lines is where the navigation channel is supposed to be allowed for boats in the river. And this is how it's closed and open. You leave about 150 feet of opening that is more than is required. What is required right now is only 130 feet minimum requirement for the navigation channel. And this is just marking more or less the height of the tower. And I think it will be a little higher than the buildings existing, but it's not too high. It's not too oppressive. I think it will blend very well with the area. And this is the view from the other direction. And this is a photograph you're looking at from the air. And this is when it opens. And I think when I show it to people in Boston or other places, they actually like it very much open. So it might be possible to leave it open most of the day and then just close it at certain times. So you are not really interrupting the navigation and you don't have to be opening and closing it. So maybe you can open it early in the morning at noon when there is people walking and having lunch and then in the afternoon when people are waking. And then again you could also leave it closed in the weekend and you could coordinate that. It gives you a lot of possibilities. The other thing that you can do is you can decide to only open one side and leave the other one closed. So you don't need to operate the whole system constantly. Because opening only one side will allow you also to have some boats crossing. So I think it has a lot of flexibility in that sense. This is a cross section of the bridge. The bridge we propose is to be 12 feet wide. 12 feet wide is kind of a generous distance that would allow to have traffic going in both directions without interruption. And you could have also two bicycles, one in each direction. There really has to be about four feet high for any safety if somebody is on a bicycle. It needs to be of a certain height. But as I show you in the bridge in Greenville it can be very transparent. It doesn't need to be obstructive. I only have two feet three inches for the depth. And the reason for having a very light structure is because it might be possible that some small boats might still go underneath. You have something that doesn't have a mast. So it's important to keep it as thin as possible. Because it might allow to have some boats going underneath. And the bridge will have a gentle slope of about five percent. So at the center of the navigation channel it will be higher and it will be lower when you get to the land. And one other possibility here is that we could have this surface here could be made out of wood. And that's one possibility that we could explore. Like a very hard wood that would not require a lot of maintenance. But it would tie it together with the other wood that you have in the other path with the shanty towns and the architecture. And that would make it very nice to walk on the wood. It's kind of romantic. So that's one possibility to do that. This is some view when you are coming from the beach and then going into town. Sorry, let me just go back. And one thing that is interesting about this is like once you are in the bridge your view will always change. So because you enter in this S-curve you will be changing views and it will be very dynamic. It will not be like static because you will be going kind of moving around the structure. So these are like different views once you are inside the bridge. And this is a view of the model opening. I should say photography of this model here how it opens. Somebody told me it kind of looks like a wing. You have a wing opening in one direction and an opening in the other direction. This is the bridge opening. And I think the architecture of the bridge ties very well to what exists there. Because it reminds me very much of a boat, like a sailboat with white towers. So it is very much integrated to that location. It will kind of maintain that character that you have right now there. And of course you could illuminate it at night also. You could have something like that where again the surface where people are walking could be illuminated. And you could have a color and you could also play with the top of the towers here. You could have kind of like a beacon here at the very top that you would see from a distance that will mark where is that location. This is another view of the structure. It is a very light structure. I feel it is very original. Like nobody else has proposed anything similar anywhere else in the US or actually anywhere else. So you will have a special structure for your town that nobody else will have. And I think people always like that because then you can have like a sense of pride that you have something special for your location. And I feel the investment of five million compared to what investment you could get around the area is kind of a minimum investment. And you could get so much more with new development and attract new people. And actually the whole river I think will change with such a bridge. It will really attract a lot of new people coming into the city. And that's the end of the presentation. And if you would like to ask me any questions I'll be happy to answer them. Thank you Mr. Chairman. The mechanical part of the structure what kind of a warranty is on that on the mechanical part of the bridge or what is the warranty in general. I would say that you know the bridge needs to be inspected like every two to three years. But if it's maintained and inspected it's unlimited. It should be like last about a hundred years I would say. You know we will use the best equipment at the beginning so you don't need to have a lot of maintenance. But it will need to be inspected about every two to three years. But the company that's making the bridge is it warrantied to be defect free for five years or ten years or one year. How long of a time don't we have to worry about any exposure as far as maintenance. I would say that the mechanical equipment should be warranted between 30 and 40 years. You should not have any problems in that range. That's a written warranty. Yes. Thank you. The bridge that was replaced on 8th Street that was opened in 1935 and it was replaced ten years ago. How do you do a structure like a new structure with a high technology should last a hundred years. I mean you know and these cables are stainless steel so they're very durable. We try to do you know the best quality materials so you don't have to be constantly maintaining them. Oldman Graf you had a question. Yes. What happens to this bridge during our winters. You could still open it. I mean I think what it will be important to do is for example if you use slats what it will go through to the river. You don't need to have a special drainage system. I don't know how many people are going to be walking in the wintertime so to save operation of the bridge you might want to close it the worst months like February and I don't know how many months you have that are very bad. It's very operable and also once the winter comes I'm sure your boats don't come very often either so it could stay fixed for a certain number of times but I think the design has a lot of flexibility so you could like make a schedule for the whole year and decide when you want to have it open when you want to have it close. If we will go with this concept I'm guessing it will be closed three to four months out of the year. Oldman Ryan you had a question. The mechanical end of this is that electric motor open gear is that hydraulic? Yes it's an electric system. It's like a rotation at the top of the tower. Rotating shaft on a disk is a good way to envision it. Once you see it I think you will understand it. Yes it's not obvious at the beginning because some of the cables stay fixed and some of the cables move with the structure but if you see it in the model you'll understand it better. President Byrne you had a question? Yes thank you Mr. Chairman. Your close clearance to water line is 8 feet. I believe the A Street bridge is likely something like 15 or 16. Standard express cruiser which has 11 foot clearance generally to the radar arch. The development plan had our charter fishing fleet be on the other side of the bridge. I would guess our charter fishing fleet requires a height of something like 14 to 17 feet because most of those have our sedan bridge types of cruisers and they will be going out at different times during the day so in terms of the boarding activity you will have a significant amount of activity that will be going through that part of the bridge. I guess have you given that any consideration? Yes we have. We've had some discussion. We probably do is keep the bridge in an open position most of the time and close it whether it's once every half, four or once an hour for pedestrians to use it otherwise it would remain open for the boat traffic. Because I could walk around there and maybe I'm a contrarian but if the bridge is open I could walk around that whole area in ten minutes. But I could see people gathering, waiting for that bridge to close and to go across and maybe it's once every 20 minutes. The A Street bridge is pretty much on schedule once every 20 minutes so you can coordinate it with that too. And again we like to encourage you to think of the reverse usually we think of a bridge as closed. In this case the concept is to leave the bridge open and close it to enhance pedestrian navigation of the river which is now not possible. So you're enhancing something that doesn't exist and you're putting a minimal compromise on the water navigation. For five million dollars. Well but the issue here is that again you said I could walk around there because you're very familiar with the situation. Back to an earlier question as I was sitting there listening to Miguel. I was thinking of cities around the world where bridges are key to serve the pedestrian and bring two sides of the river together. And I realize there's cities in other parts of the world and there are bigger cities. But if you do go to London right now there's been four or five brand new pedestrian bridges to facilitate pedestrian circulation. You look in some of the older cities there are these incredible pedestrian bridges, multiple decks. Go to Toronto right now. Toronto is reinventing itself with bridges across these old keys and piers and it's all redevelopment. I'm working on a project now that will have a pedestrian bridge in Cleveland that will tie the museums together and offer 2,000 new homes on the waterfront once the pier relocates to the other side of the river. Let's go to Wisconsin now. We're designing a bridge that's going to connect the island to the new museum on the waterfront, on the lakefront to allow for 24-hour fishing access of the area around Summerfest. Again, accommodating how many millions of people that go down there along Milwaukee. That bridge is not as complicated as this. It's over a million dollars. I worked in Racine and we redid the main street bridge there to widen it on top as well as accommodating pedestrian circulation on the two edges. The investment in Racine was to the tune of somewhere between 23 and 25 million. It has experienced over a $250 million return. Let's talk about this project right here. You're saying $5 million. We haven't done an economic study. I'm not sure what the economic positive impact is going to be on your downtown. I don't know what the economic impact is going to be on the island because of the peninsula because the study hasn't been done. I do know that the bridge right now you've got over 150 of investment on the peninsula. This bridge will help reduce the risk and encourage the other 100 million that's possible here right now today. Those are big numbers of returns. Alderman Kilsen. Thank you. You said the bridge will cost $5 million. Yes. You said something about five years? Two and a half years. Two and a half years. Two and a half years to build the bridge. Yes. I also included the design. And the $5.2 million also includes all the construction drawings and the construction supervision is the whole package. I think the construction cost of the bridge is about $4.6 million. But you need to add all the construction drawings, the final design and the construction supervision. Thank you. One thing that is good about the pedestrian bridge is that it's very small so you can build it very quickly and you can get a lot of benefit very fast. Like the other bridges I showed you, like for example the one in Boston that took like 15 years. Because when you do a highway bridge it's so much more paperwork and so many more permits. But with the pedestrian bridge you can make a relatively small investment and get a very big return. And that's why experience in Greenville then it cost $4.5 million and now the whole city is changed. I mean even so much that the mayor decided to put the bridge in their logo now. So the city has the picture of the bridge. I think that sometimes people can underestimate the power of a structure like this but it's something that can really turn people's imagination. And it can really transform an area. More than a building. Like that's my experience. You know when you do a nice bridge like something that is interesting and unique it has a lot more power than a building. Because it's more public and people can relate to it very much. It becomes really part of the community. It becomes a community icon. Something that people can relate and they can use all the time. It really regenerates the area very much. Thank you. Alderman Manny you had a question? Thank you. I'm wondering about night navigational lines and how they would impact this bridge. I don't know how they impact the 8th Street Bridge either. All of your navigational lines and guidelines would have to be in full compliance. Can you summarize those for us real quickly? The lighting the signage and the decals they would all be incorporated. The right return, the green, it all has to comply. All of your regulation, core and Coast Guard navigational aids. One good thing about the site is that you already have one mobile bridge very close. You already have that experience. The Coast Guard will have a history of how it operated and what is the best operation and we will just apply the same system. You have to have night lights. They usually will be like probably be integrated in this side of the structure at this level. They know where the navigation channel is and if it has to be open. If you illuminate the towers and the cables it will be visible from a very long distance. The navigation lights would just be a complement to the overall view of the structure. You need to get the bridge permit because it's a navigable water. One of the things that we will do is if this proceeds to the final design, one of the activities to show it to the Coast Guard and see if they have any issues or concerns. I think comfortable that we have complied with navigation requirements and the depth. Because it opens completely you don't have any clearance problems. Any size sailboat can come through. That's an advantage. Sometimes when you have a basket bridge, depending on where the lift opens it might create some kind of obstruction. But in this case it's open completely open. So we would just like to see what kind of operations what kind of requirements they have. But I'm pretty comfortable the navigation span and the clearance is what they care more about. Because they don't want to create another obstacle, obviously. They protect the water of the United States. So they want to have it as open as possible. The other issue is the width of the bridge. Miguel quoted a 12 foot dimension. That also meets the AASHTO standards in terms of the bike path regulations and things like that. So again enabling you to pursue funding that relates to those types of transportation enhancements. We have quite a few questions yet. Alderman, Ryan. Right now in the city you're probably detecting a little difficulty toward the project because the city's basically in right now and not in a good cash position to take on anything like this. I think if we set that aside, if we set the money aside and look at it conceptually, I think it's a great idea for the city. With the riverfront right now, and I do spend some time down there getting coffee and this and that, you always see a lot of people that are on the shanty side of the river right now. And being local shabuaganites, most of us we kind of live in a small world and to have to actually get in your car and drive around the other side or to walk that far, we don't do it. I think this bridge would be a great asset as far as tying it together. I think the economic impact will be significant in the long run. But right now, you know, we're not in a good cash position in the city and hopefully there can be some benefit funding that may become available to help us out with this project. We understand that and our first stop will be at the county for that non-motorized transportation money. That's where we'll go for first to try to get some money out of there. We realize that the city can afford $5 million for pedestrian bridge and Ed had mentioned enhancement monies too. For bike and pedestrian ways there also. So we have a few options that we need to start going in that direction but the first stop will be at the county. What type of money are we talking from the county on me? The process isn't in place yet. We just started meeting. I don't know if they're going to be requiring any kind of a match. Don't know yet. Can't answer that question yet. And Tom, you're on the committee. Yes, I am. There's 30 members of that committee and I'm one of the members on there. It's $25 million over the next four years with some of that's going towards administration. So I'm thinking there's probably, I've heard different numbers, maybe optimistically $4 million a year for projects. This is federal money? Federal money. Shibuya County is one of four different areas that receive this money in the country. So if we look at this and say there may be some funding out there for it, it looks like a heck of a lot better idea. Well, I appreciate you bringing that up. It wasn't that long ago that you were looking at building a marina. And the city wasn't that much better off back then. And the marina happened because of a pooling of resources, public-private partnerships, some donorship, everything from individual pavers and benches and trees to some corporate donations for the yard arm and the plaza. Every project I've worked on would not be possible without that kind of a partnering. So I guess Miguel and I especially are kind of pleading here that if the idea is right and the concept is right we're asking that you support it with the understanding you have to figure out how to finance it. Every project that I've worked on for the last 30 years, I've promised to minimize the impact on the local taxpayer and that can be done here as well. Again, if you can get public sources that aren't on the local tax books, you can make it happen and balance that with some private donations. Again, 18, 19 million, the New Island and the bridge right in front of Milwaukee that's all coming from state and federal funds, including the Corps of Engineers. Racine, most of that money was state, county and federal. Huge amounts are broken down that way. I forget your single leaf 8th Street bridge costs $8.5 million, just giving an idea and that was what an 80-100 foot, 75 foot leaf. Considerably more complicated mechanism. This is sophisticated, it's a sophisticated design that makes it look less complicated but a different kind of complexity. I think the bridge is going to be a great asset. You're right. I think the economic impact and just the image improvement of the entire area, I think it will be a great asset. Locally, I think there's not a lot of people that are going to want to use much local funding in order to pay for it. Let me just finish my plea here. If you're going to go after any kind of public monies and there isn't public support for the project, you're not going to get public money. It's that simple. I think people should support this. Don't get me wrong. I think it's a necessity in order to develop the entire area. We have a concept and if someone likes the concept, they can feel free to give us the money. I think it was two years ago when Mr. Holden asked us for the money to do this study and he said we've got to have the concept and then we'll find the funding and that's where we are today. Alderman Racky, you have a question? Thank you, Mr. Chairman. First off, the marine has a bad analogy to bring up. That thing's still costing us off our property tax dollars every year. Secondly, the 8th Street Bridge cost about $8.5 million and that was a fight that took a few years to get that thing. The marina was put ahead of the 8th Street Bridge, by the way. The city's had a history of taking the infrastructure and putting it behind frivolities such as this bridge. Then the city's got another history of shutting things off when it can't afford to run these things. What is the cost of running this thing going to be on a yearly basis? The cost of the 8th Street Bridge, if I recall correctly from back when the new bridge was open, went from $100 a year for electricity in the old bridge to $12,000 a year on the new bridge. Ten times the cost of the old bridge. However, the old bridge is ready to fall into the river and couldn't be locked in place anymore if I recall correctly. But again, the cost of running this bridge went up considerably over the old bridge. What are we talking about for costs here? What are we talking about for maintenance here? We have wintertime activities down in the riverfront just because a lot of the sport fishing boats are out of the water. The commercial fish tugs are still in the water going in and out of this harbor on a regular basis. We need to address that issue. The bridge is going to be open most of the time instead of closed. In this city, boy, that'd be the first thing you're going to start squawking about. You built the bridge, it's open, not closed. Well, it is a movable bridge. Its intention is to open and close. It's not a static bridge. Well, what about maintenance costs and things? What's going to cost us to run such a thing in a year's time? I mean, the city's got a history of running out of money and shutting. The bridge will just sit there open like we had a water feature sit and you're turned off for a couple of years because we couldn't afford to run it. Next thing will be we've got to cut this out of budget because we can't afford to run it. First of all, it's a very light structure. The cost is much less than what you have in the big structure because the big structure has to be for cars. The loads and everything that you have in that very big bridge is going to be substantially more. The exact number, but it's going to be much less than what you do with the main bridge. The other thing that I have experienced in the past is that if you build a very nice structure that people like very much, you get funding to maintain it because it becomes part of your community and you would not let it go to be destroyed. That has always been my experience. In terms of trying some funding, I would advise you that you could even maybe sell the names and the name rights for the bridge. In the Liberty Bridge that I show you, the Liberty Corporation gave $500,000 to put their name on the structure. But they did that because they think the structure is very attractive and they think the structure has won many awards in all the magazines, so people try to be related to something that is successful. And if you were going to be very unattractive or something not very special, nobody would want to put their name attached to it. So it needs to have that kind of correlation. I know that it's an investment and you need to maintain it, but I cannot assure you it's going to change your city completely. It's going to create such a kind of new image that a few years after this build you will have forgotten any problems that you had. Because that's what happens. The bridge really has that power. And I just wanted to say I think that's a good question when you talk about maintenance. And we've had that question. We've talked about what the maintenance cost would be. And this is the beginning stage and I do feel that it's very critical that we look at maintenance and we look at a possible endowment or how will we maintain this bridge in the future so that it stays operational. You know, and it is we have traffic all year long. We're unlike a lot of communities that in the winter they shut down. We still have commercial fishermen that come in and out of the river. So I mean it's critical that that bridge will be maintained and will open and close. And it's also critical I think that we work on that retail mass for both sides so that we're creating not just one district but a whole entire district of downtown the riverfront and south pier. Alderman Susha. Thank you Mr. Chairman. I want to reiterate some of the comments that were said here tonight in regards to the feasibility of this. It's a beautiful bridge. There's no doubt about it. And if we had a lot of money this would be a wonderful concept. The only way I would support moving ahead with this project is if somebody funded it completely where it didn't cost anyone in the city a nickel and if there was a mechanism in place where it wouldn't cost anyone in the city a nickel to keep it up for the maintenance. We're talking about the marina. That's a terrible analogy. The citizens of Sheboygan are still upset that we're losing a quarter of a million dollars a year. They're not allowed to use a swimming pool. People are still angry about that. We were told that when you build the marina that will make tourism take off. We were told that when you develop the south pier it's going to just take off. Well I think that this past spring when we had a referendum about bringing a casino to Sheboygan it was voted down and I didn't really care about that. What it said to me was that the citizens of Sheboygan do not want Sheboygan to become a year round tourist destination. They do not want that because if they did you could go down to the riverfront now and the shops would be open past 6 p.m. The restaurants would be open longer and you could say well you need to have this bridge to get the tourists over there so then they could be open. On Sunday yesterday at 4 o'clock in the afternoon my husband and I had the opportunity to go to get something to eat. We had nine restaurants at 4 o'clock on a Sunday afternoon. They were all closed. Talking about building a bridge to create an economic base for development we don't necessarily need that in Sheboygan. We have the lake we have the river, we have the development going in because of the water. They're not going to develop because of the bridge. They're going to develop because of the water. As far as the recreational trail money I would rather see that money spent on fixing the Eisner Avenue project. Things that are going to benefit the citizens that actually live here. I mean if we could use that money to put in a new storm sewer system at 5th and New York that would be absolutely wonderful but that's probably a stretch of the money but just to put it in perspective for what's going on with my family. When I take my kids to a park, to Cole Park which is the closest park to my house there is an outhouse, literally a porta potty that they have to use and it's wonderful. If you have a three year old and they need to use the facilities I'm very grateful to have that porta potty there but you're going to tell me it's almost to use five million dollars to put a bridge up and yet my children and we pay a lot of property taxes in the city have to go in a porta potty in a park because we can't afford to put a flush toilet in that park. There's something wrong with the system. We need to focus our money on infrastructure. These things are wonderful in communities that have a lot of extra money that they don't know what to do with but I will not support putting one nickel of the taxpayers' money into this and I have a question perhaps Paulette can answer. I'd like to know how much we've spent so far creating this beautiful model and how much money have we spent so far into this study and where did the money come from? We were authorized $35,000 I believe it was two years ago. This model did not as Miguel said, did not cost us anything. Miguel did this on his own time. It's the second trip here in his own time. That's how strong it feels about the bridge. You know, you have a very special site in a very special location and I'm so sure it's going to benefit you so much. I have a lot of work all over the United States. I don't need this project to happen here. I mean, I have very, very big bridges all over. But I think it's such a beautiful site, such a beautiful location. It will really change your whole area and it will create so much enthusiasm to be here. It's not only for tourists. It's for the people that are here in the city. I'm sure they will come to the river more. They will use the bridge as the destination. It's something that will energize your whole area. I just believe that the opportunity is there and I'm trying to make it happen. A model like this costs about $20,000. It opens and it has mechanical equipment. It's a very expensive model. But I thought it was a good investment for me to give you the model because it will help you to imagine what it can be in the future. I hope it can do that. I'm going to leave the model here as long as you feel like the project has some possibility of being built. I feel very enthusiastic about this federal grant that is supposed to be given for non-motorized circulation of pedestrians and bicycles. If you can get some money through that, it's from the federal government and it's supposed to benefit people that are walking and using bicycles, not cars. If you keep putting cars and cars and cars in the city, then you start to get more and more traffic, more and more pollution. The federal government has some interest in doing something for pedestrians and bicycles. This is one source that you could get. Thank you, Alderman Graf. Thank you. I was going to bring up the fact that the federal money that was out there and looking at it that way, I think this would be a great project to do for the city of Shibuya. It would also connect the two areas and bring unity to both the east side and the west side of the river. It would create a district that people would want to go to and visit. As far as looking at times where people are closing now, I think that has to be adjusted and will be adjusted once more activity is there. You're looking at doing many things down at the riverfront that will encourage people to be there during the months of February and March rather than closing it off and just leaving it like they're talking about a wine tasting and several art displays and things like that that will bring people down to the south pier area. So I think this would just add to it and it would be nice if the committee that's overseeing this 25 million dollars would know that the city of Shibuya and they are interested and they are behind it and I think we are overall interested in it and it's something that we'd like you to consider doing provided we get the funding that does not affect the taxpayers in any way. I think we support what you're saying and especially the point of an endowment. I don't know how many projects I work on now that it's the endowment that's the critical thing, not the capital cost of building it because you want it to be something for your children or your grandchildren. I don't want to come across as argumentative but to me that bridge is infrastructure. It's not frill. Three and a half million dollars of three blocks of greening connecting Main Street and Racine down to the lake attracted a 500 employee building right on the corner of Fifth and Main. 500 new employees in downtown Racine. It's something that is going to attract people so that you can develop residential here and you can develop more residential here. So it's an investment. How are you going to relocate or attract new businesses, innovative businesses in a community that was known for its innovation and its hard work ethic? How are you going to create jobs for the kids that are graduating today or tomorrow? It's this kind of an investment that is going to create the tax base to change that porta-potty to a full time comfort station. Tonight was just a presentation on what's available. You're not looking for any voter confidence or anything like that. What is your next step after this presentation? We'll make application to the county for that trail money. They don't have the process or procedures in place yet as soon as they do, that'd be our first start. I would like to thank you for the model and for all the work you've done because if this becomes a reality, I think it's going to be because of this model. I think the model is just extraordinary but we still have lots of questions so I'll remember hassle. Thank you Mr. Chair. I think my question is for Miguel here but don't take my question long because it's a beautiful bridge and I think it would complement that area as you say but I do wonder as you designed it, did you look at other design structures or design types that would maybe influence the cost? Yes. I mean I thought about doing a basket structure like the one you have but I thought it would be much more complicated to raise a hundred feet high in the air. You need a lot of force to do that so I kind of eliminated any basket structures. The swing bridge, you could have it without the cables but then you would have to have a very thick structure and a very big motor to open it. The cables relate to the sailboats and then why don't have the cables and it makes it lighter and then you can operate better so I also didn't think just a common swing bridge could be possible here. Any other type of bridge that is not a swing or a basket, it will require something that you know a lift bridge for example that goes up and down but your boats are so big you need to go up so high. So I did think about structures but I felt like you need to merge kind of the technical with the aesthetic together trying to find something that you know will work well with your navigation channel but also give you some kind of interest because you know if you take all the cables and the towers and you just leave it flat you cannot see it from anywhere. It becomes very utilitarian and also I feel like it will cost you more because you will have to have a very big load to carry to open it. It's a balance between technical issues and aesthetic issues but I have to tell you that if you come and see the model it fits very well there. It's almost like it was planned to be there all along because the two cables here that frame the path here, they are very well organized and you have another two cables here that frame you know in the other direction. So the whole circulation pattern is very well organized you know with the system so it's almost like it was planned especially for this location and that's always very important because sometimes you take bridges people make a bridge somewhere else and they want to put it just in another place and to me that's like it fits the purpose because it doesn't really rate to the context it's not integrated and then people don't get something special for their community and I always think like if you're going to make the investment and the effort to you know build and maintain it you should get something special otherwise why bother? You know it becomes more of a liability than an asset so you need to have that you need to have something that belongs to the area. Again it is a beautiful bridge don't take me wrong I mean I'd love to see it down there but I was just curious if it would put the cost at 2 million maybe others that would put it at 8 but I'm just trying to broaden my own scope of understanding what our options are so that when those questions come to me I can answer. One is probably all of you in the room know one major constraint that we have in that river is PCB contamination and that's what Miguel had to deal with with you know this design was how do you design a bridge without really impacting the surface of that river bottom which then drove the cost up for that 8th street bridge so that was a major constraint. That's how I was going to mention you mentioned the costs on the 8th street bridge the old bridge was only 25 horsepower it was counterweighted with the new bridge we could not disturb the bottom of PCB so it's not counterweighted so it's 1200 horsepower it's worth electric motors down there that's why it was so much to build it and that's why it cost so much to operate it every year. The main supports are in the land there is nothing in the water like if you want to see them all the two towers are basically next to the land. Yes. Thank you Almond Ryan. I would like to thank Mr. Rosales on the model it shows that you're serious about this project as a something that you would like to put your name on rather than throwing a bridge together to make some money I personally do endorse this bridge I think it will be great for the community providing we can find the funding I think this is this is economic infrastructure for our riverfront I think this bridge will do a lot it would be nice to be able to walk across the river occasionally and get to the other side rather than driving around and provided that the money is available that the local taxpayers don't take a big hit on it I stand behind this project. Thank you. Thank you Almond Racky. Thank you Mr. Chairman once again we sit here Miguel if you could move away from the map there just a second picture I see there is the south pier district and I keep hearing from the people in this community the south pier district blue harbor here goes more money once again what about A Street what about downtown what kind of economic impact is it going to have to get people away from there and back up here to the main part of the city which we seem to be lacking people and decent shops and things I mean this part of the town has been dying for years and we try to pause at that then where we need to start getting people back up here and use the both of them how is that going to happen by getting people back up here to 8th and Michigan for example or 8th and Ontario to the Stephanie Wild Center and Niagara I mean how is this going to help us especially in the middle of winter I think this this trail money that we're talking about will be well spent putting a series of urban recreation trails using the railroad right of ways if we could something to get us bike pass through this community because frankly the price of gas keeps going up and more people are riding bicycles and taking alternative transportation $5 million to get us a lot more for those people than what this bridge is going to provide us for the three months of the year because this is a summertime area down here basically getting across that river we're not green you know we're not Greenville South Carolina where we have nice weather you know eight or nine months out of the year we only have just a couple of months so that people are actually moving about I can't support a five and a half or five million dollar bridge going across the river when there are other needs that this community needs to be taking a look at like eight street and bike trails and everything else thank you. I'd encourage you to go up to Duluth and there's a drawbridge down in the old industrial that goes to a whole redeveloped area that's used 12 months out of the year I think Duluth has about they have to be creative how to deal with the winter. The other thing is Miguel said it earlier we've talked about throughout the whole process it's not about just serving the out of town tourist it's making this a 24 hour downtown place that attracts people to work and live and a component of the south pier as well as the downtown is about residential infill it's not just all about retail if you have the demand you can provide the supply that's where the retailers start coming it's not just about the tourist in terms of helping the downtown throughout this process we met with the folks at the bid we met with the Sheboygan Economic Development Corporation we talked about this there's a lot of candid discussion about how this could complement and enhance the downtown and I think it was you who said well why do I need this one I can come down here 10 minutes walk around well imagine if you can walk 10 minutes between this and this instead of going down to the rotary and back up the benefit it would have to the downtown and it's very analogous to what they call a dumbbell scheme when they do regional shopping malls you create two anchors and you generate traffic between so if this becomes an anchor and this becomes an anchor you start encouraging development between those two anchored destinations looking at the concept and it could be years and years before we're looking at a vote of reality President Berg? Thank you obviously the shanty side of our harbor areas is fairly well built out one of our long range goals in terms of the next stage of development is to upgrade and make Indiana Avenue a major corridor and hopefully a tie-in with I-43 I thought would be how does this impact on the development of that area because to me that's probably the most fertile area for development so if you have a bridge that crosses over that we are saying we are tying in to the downtown area and we have already a significant interest and development on the Indiana Avenue corridor which is again easily accessible down that way and I think could be made very safe architecturally, culturally, and economically a very attractive promenade to walk along because it parallels the river how would that impact that? I guess any observations you might have because this truncates that. Well there is a nice route down to Indiana now down south pier drive through the highway you're down there I don't think that the bridge here is going to work both ways of getting pedestrians from downtown to south pier and from south pier up to downtown and some may trickle down to Indiana I think it's going to be one loop I believe I can't I don't think all this bridge would negatively affect anybody on Indiana Avenue and if I could comment too that this year one of the other projects that we're working on is extending the promenade onto this Indiana site and then making a pedestrian connection to Indiana and so I think that that would enhance that. Okay, Alderman Voron. Thank you Mr. Chairman this is probably down the road a while but I guess this would be a question for Tom or Paulette is it possible to ensure that bridge for any potential damage like if there was a bad storm and one of those commercial fishing boats or another boat would break loose obviously they probably have insurance but is there a way to protect our investment? Anything, we're self-insured and I believe the deductible is 75,000 so anything beyond that if it's a lightning strike that takes something, we had that happen down at the A Street Bridge and insurance I believe would cover that I can't say that for sure I have to check with Nancy and Rich but I would certainly think that like you said too if it's a boat that comes loose much more than damages the bridge their insurance would be responsible for that if they had it. Thank you. Thank you. It looks like we don't have any other questions. With that I thank you for the presentation and thank you for all your hard work. Tom? Do you want to see that model open or it's a working model? Can we see it? Well, we'll be able to see it on TV do we know? Yeah, if you would like to do it once for the TV man behind the wall say yeah so if you could just do it once and then we'll come around and look at it later. Where after this presentation is that model going to be located so that in case somebody wants to come down and see it in operation because you might have a lot of people doing that. It's in the conference room in Paulette's office at 807 Center Avenue But then Tom's the only one that's authorized to open the bridge No No what happened is like you see it has to open in phases you cannot open the two of them together you have to open one first and then the other one because if they open together they will hit each other because it's kind of like a half moon so when you see it in the model it has to be in order you cannot just open it any other way so that's why Tom is in charge but it has numbers here so you follow the numbers you should be able to figure it out so I'll open the first leaf and then the second leaf and you see how the cables are stable in the back cable stay in place and it has like a triangular shape so it's very very stable so you know this is the way it's open you'll have the whole navigation channel open and then you have to close it again in order when it was open you were seeing 150 feet clear and the whole mechanism is here at the top and now the other leaf unfortunately we already have a technical difficulty I think we can if you want to see it we can see it again afterwards thank you very much on the agenda we have communication number 390607 from Richard Hartman regarding accepted procedures for all members of committees when they present letters, documents on an issue before the committee on your desk I have a copy of an email that President Brewery asked me to put on your desk that he had a conversation through email with Richard Hartman can I have a motion on the document before discussion motion I second the file under discussion under discussion I talked to Richard Hartman on the phone and he felt it wasn't necessary to talk anymore about the letters here at community home meeting but he just wanted us to be aware of both the communications. I'll in favor of filing it signify by saying aye. Aye. Chair votes aye. Any opposed motion passes next on the agenda is RO number 130607 from the city clerk submitting a communication from Richard Hartman stating his issues with the uses of space in the new police station and offering suggestions to reduce space needs Alderman Graf. Thank you Mr. Chairman I would move that that RO be referred to the building use committee and also to the police department because many of the questions that Mr. Hartman is asking for and regarding his list of items is something that the police need to answer and since they will be answering many of the requests or concerns that were brought up at the building use committee about a month ago on Monday the 31st this I think should be referred to them also so that they can address those concerns thank you thank you I have a motion and a second and is there any discussion I'll in favor of the motion signify by saying aye. Chair votes aye. Any opposed motion passes second I have a motion second to adjourn all in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. We are adjourned