 This is Dennis McMinn and welcome to Positively Vermont. And today my special guest is Oliver Pearson, the Lakes and Ponds Program Manager for the Vermont Department of Environmental Conservation. Welcome Oliver. Thank you Dennis, great to be here. I wanna be speaking today about something that's on the agency's mind and everyone else's mind. And that's all the lakes and ponds in the state of Vermont and how your agency is dealing with various issues that come up in the environment. And also most particularly, how people can participate in your program's activities. But first, tell us a little bit about yourself. Sure Dennis, well again, my name's Oliver Pearson. I manage the Lakes and Ponds programs for Vermont Department of Environmental Conservation for DEC. I live in South Burlington with my family and I have a natural resource management background specializing in freshwater management. So I have the great privilege of leading a team of experts and professionals here at Vermont DEC to manage, regulate use of monitor and work with Lakeshore property owners, towns and Vermonters who use lakes to recreate to really try to understand what we have here or what's great about our lakes and ponds with some of the water quality challenges are and how the state and our partners and regular Vermonters can work with us to try and improve water quality and maintain these great lakes that we all love and enjoy here in Vermont. Great, can you give us a summary of the extent of the lakes and pond resources throughout the state going north to south? Any way you want to do it, feel it. Yeah, we have over 800 lakes and ponds in the state and about 250 of those are over 10 acres in size. And we have some extremely large lakes, obviously Champlain is a lake we share with New York and Quebec. Men from Magog is also a lake we share with Quebec and then Bonnezin is the largest lake that's entirely in Vermont. We have some large reservoirs in the southern part of the state that are great for recreation and fishing and then some more natural lakes, some created by glacial activity in the Northern and Northeast, in particular parts of the state. But really we have the lakes and ponds scattered throughout the state and hopefully most Vermonters when you say, what's your favorite lake? They can think of something that's pretty close to their home and they don't have to drive too far to get to a lake to enjoy for swimming, boating, fishing or just to enjoy the aquatic habitat and the wildlife that live and benefit from those lakes and ponds. So we're lucky also that most of our lakes and ponds have a pretty good water quality for all but there is a challenge we see when we do our monitoring that many of our lakes have trends that are sort of headed in the wrong direction that while the water quality is still good and we're seeing some increases in some of the parameters that suggest that some water quality challenges might be coming, things like phosphorus, the total phosphorus concentration in many of our lakes and ponds is increasing. Things like water clarity, you know, if the water clarity is decreasing, that isn't great. And then some other measurements of biological productivity in the lakes like chlorophyll A are also increasing. So those are some of the trends that we're concerned about and we're trying to either stabilize or reverse and again, maintain these great lakes so that we can enjoy them for recreation and aquatic habitat year round. Well, recording this on March 28th and I guess one of the issues right now is the ice out situation. Can you explain what ice out is and what precisely can people do about it or observe it or what the major issue is? Yeah, so our lakes, you know, are very accustomed to the course seasons we have in Vermont and as the lakes freeze in the winter that creates some changes to the, obviously, the biological activity in the lakes and the chemistry of the lakes as well. So in the winter, you know, the surface of the lake freezes and the lake ice can get quite deep. And then right below the ice, the water is a bit warmer because the heaviest, coldest water sinks down to the bottom of the lake. In many of the lake wildlife, you know, fish, for example, just sort of go dormant over the winter months. And so, yeah, as you said, come March, April, we begin to see warmer temperatures, the ice begins to melt, starting at the edges. And essentially when the ice clears when the lake is free of ice or ice out, you know, at that point, the lake mixes, the heaviest water at that point is the water from the ice that has just melted and heaviest coldest. So that drops to the bottom of the lake and it forces slightly warmer water up and the lakes mix in that point of the year before any real plant growth has begun. It's a great time to really understand what the chemical composition of the lake is and how much nutrients are available for plant growth. So I think folks are familiar with some of the ice out competitions in the state like Joe's pond that have been going on for years. That's a lot of fun. But if you look at the data of when ice out actually occurs, we're running this on around 20 lakes where we have a good record of data. We're seeing that ice out is now occurring earlier than it used to. And it's, you know, it's about every decade on average, ice out occurs almost two days sooner than it did previously. So that doesn't sound like a lot, you know, it's two days over 10 years. But if that continues, you know, in, you know, 50 years, we're gonna, instead of seeing ice out around March 25th, it would be around March 15th. And so you can see how that trend would become more worrisome over time. So that's just a quick indication of what's happening with ice out dates. And so we asked Vermonters to track ice out on their, you know, local ponds or lakes and let us know. We have a website, we have a page on the ECT website where folks can enter ice out data for lakes that are adjacent to them. And we're tracking that information and really because we'd like to go out as soon as the lakes are free of ice and when they've mixed to do some monitoring in the spring as we, that's our spring phosphorus monitoring program. When we go out on one or two lakes per day, you know, in some pretty cold temperatures at times collect a bunch of information to give us a sense of, as I said, what the nutrients are available for plank growth before aquatic plants can grow, before algae starts to grow. And we have those trends over time. We have spring phosphorus data going back almost 40 years. And so we can really understand what the impacts of things like increasing nutrients flowing into a lake or climate change are from this long-term data set. And that helps us plan lake protection, lake management and lake restoration as a result. In general, what effect does climate change have on the lakes and ponds in our state? Yeah, what we're seeing in Vermont is increased temperatures in the summer, shorter winters and then the precipitation is a bit flashier now. So we'll have fewer days of rain but more rain in concentrated larger storms. So you may not get the steady drizzle that's great for agriculture and for bringing in slow and steady flows of water into our lakes, but you get these large storm events, folks can think back to October, 2019 that big Halloween storm, and that's an example or even going back further, Irene. So we're seeing these large storm events that dump a lot of water onto the land and into our streams and eventually into the lakes. And then some periods of dryness. I think the last two summers have had some sustained droughts particularly in the northern half of the state. We did have a little bit of flooding in the southern half last year, but the northern half has had droughts over the last two summers. So all that combines to create some challenging conditions for our lakes. It's the water is increasing in temperature, the growing season is expanding. And so we're seeing more aquatic plant growth and more algae growth. The algae manifests itself. I think folks are familiar with the blooms or the sign of bacteria or blue green algae blooms we see on some lakes, parts of Lake Champlain, for example, Lake Carmi. And that's really not consistent with what we expect from the water quality on our lakes. And so that's a problem we're trying to address. Lakes that have aquatic plants will see increased plant growth as a result of climate change. And some of these plants can actually reach nuisance stage and impede our ability to recreate and degrade some of the wildlife habitat. So aquatic nuisance plants growth can be heightened through climate change. That's a challenge as well. And then finally, these large storm events can lead to a lot of water flowing across agricultural fields, across impervious surface in our towns and on our properties. And all that can combine to create erosion and dump additional nutrients into the lakes. And so the climate change, increased precipitation signal has led to what we call increases in loading of nutrients. And in turn, that can create an environment in the lakes where there's more nutrients to fuel plant and algae growth. And those can lead to some of the challenges that I mentioned as well as decreased water clarity. So we still have plenty of lakes that are very clear and are fantastic for recreation in the summer. But the list of lakes with increasing total phosphorus trends as a result of climate change and additional nutrients coming in is growing. And it's particularly our low nutrient, very clear lakes. They're seeing these increasing total phosphorus trends. We refer to those lakes as oligotrophic or low nutrient and almost all of the oligotrophic lakes in the state have increasing total phosphorus trends. And over time, they move away from that very clear water with very limited plant growth that I think many of our mantras have come to enjoy and expect. So that's a challenge, not just because of climate change but perhaps exacerbated by climate change that we're working pretty diligently to address. What about the human contribution here? Recreation, construction, pavement and things like that. Could you discuss that impact? Yeah, so I mean, we think about pollution as a point sources and non-point sources. So a point source might be a wastewater treatment plant that has effluent flowing into a river and eventually into a lake. Whereas a non-point source, you know, typically you think of a farmer applying manure or fertilizer to his or her field. Precipitation event happens and some of that manure fertilizer gets caught up in the surface water that's flowing across the land into ditches into streams and eventually into lakes. So, you know, we have these two sources of pollution and broad categories point and non-point. You know, so human activities obviously contribute to both of those types of pollution. You know, with increased development, particularly around lakes, you see increases in impervious surface that can really allow water to move very quickly across the surface of the land after rainfall. That's that speed when it does hit dirt can contribute to erosion. And that's a source of both sediment and nutrients into our lakes. So we're concerned about that. We're doing a lot of work to mitigate and reduce stormwater runoff. And as we said earlier, that's exacerbated by climate change. And then, you know, when you look at Lake Champlain, another large lakes, typically the largest source of pollution are these non-point sources. You know, Vermont has a lot of land and it's sort of rural and character. We have, you know, the agricultural industry is important here. Some parts of the state logging is important. And those types of activities, you know, need to be managed in a way that limits surface water runoff and nutrient runoff. And that can be done through the implementation of best management practices where landowners, farmers, et cetera, are conscientious of the impacts of their activities on the land and on waters and can do certain things like cover cropping, like better management of the manure pits to reduce surface water runoff and reduce nutrient pollution. So, you know, I think some of the increases we've seen in nutrient concentrations in our lake is a result of human activity that's clear. In terms of point sources, we are trying to modernize our wastewater treatment plants so that there's fewer of these combined sewer overflows that they can take place after large storm events and in terms of non-point solution, non-point source pollution reduction. There's a lot of great work happening that the state is leading with our partners to reduce those sources of pollution. But it's going to be a, it's a long-term effort, you know, and we made progress in one area and another challenge is crop up somewhere else. We're fortunate to not have that many lakes in the state that are listed as impaired. We only have one lake in the state that's listed as in crisis. So that's, you know, those are steps in the right direction and we're trying to continue to reduce really the principal source of pollution through our lake which is these non-point source pollutions from our land use. And hopefully we'll continue to make. What is the one that is doing that? What is the one that you said is impaired but not doing so well? What lake is that? So we have a couple of lakes are listed as impaired and our two largest lakes, Champlain and Memphormagog are both formally listed as impaired predominantly for phosphorus. They have in lake phosphorus concentrations that are above a level that allows for what we call full support of uses where all recreational uses and aquatic habitat uses can really occur without any disturbance. So Champlain and Memphormagog are impaired. The state has worked with the Environmental Protection Agency to develop phosphorus reduction plans. These are these documents you may have heard of called Total Maximum Daily Loads. We're working towards reducing the amount of phosphorus loading into the lakes over a certain time period. And we report on that to the public and to the Environmental Protection Agency and spend a lot of time and effort working both in the lake and more importantly in its watershed to really try to implement activities on the land that can improve water quality in the lake. So those are two examples of lakes that are impaired. Vermont does have one lake that's designated under state statute as in crisis. And that's Lake Carmi. Lake Carmi was suffering from increases in phosphorus to the point where there was very frequent blue-green algae blooms in the summer and fall months that were impeding recreation, creating some human health risk because at times very rarely, but at times these blue-green algae blooms can become toxic and was having a negative impact on property values up there in Franklin. So the state legislature listed that lake as a crisis. A number of years ago, we've been working to implement a crisis response plan and try to improve water quality in Carmi since then. So that's one end of the spectrum. And then you can think about the other end of the spectrum, think about Lake Willoughby in Lake Caspian or Lake Rapunda down Southern Vermont. These are beautiful lakes with good water quality and where our management objectives are really succeeding and we're able to enjoy full support of all designated uses on those lakes. That's not to say they don't have water quality challenges that we're also working on, but I wanna make sure people understand that those lakes that are impaired, like Shin Plain and for Maygot are one end of the spectrum and the vast majority of the states, lakes and ponds are not impaired and we're able to really do what we want and swim, boat, fish, et cetera on those lakes without natural problems getting in our way. And in addition to monitoring, which I believe we discussed and the regulation, the presence and enforcement of regulations, what other efforts is the department doing to preserve and protect the lakes and ponds? Yeah, it all starts with monitoring. If we know what the conditions of the lake are, then we really won't know what should be done to either maintain good water quality or restore water quality to where we'd like it to be. So the monitoring and the assessment is a critical first step. When it comes to dealing with aquatic nuisance species or aquatic invasive species, we do a lot of work to both prevent the spread of those aquatic invasive species from one water body to another. You might see at the Fish and Wildlife Access Areas, you might see people working as breeders or lake stewards that talk to you about how to remove any aquatic vegetation from your boat. What's thrilled, what's called a clean drain and dry approach so that you avoid inadvertently taking a piece of invasive millfoil plant from one lake where it exists to another lake where it doesn't exist. So that's a really important piece of my work, preventing the spread of aquatic invasive species. We also do a lot of work with shoreline property owners, be it towns, be it other state agencies like a state park, be it private landowners so that they understand really how they can manage those properties in that first zero to 250 feet from the lake's edge in a way that's lake-friendly. So we have a lake-wise program which has really voluntary efforts that property owners of all types can implement so that their properties don't lead to lots of surface water runoff, lots of erosion and restore some of the habitat that was there historically before human settlement. So the lake-wise program is a great example of how we work with those folks who are fortunate enough to own these shoreline properties around lakes. You mentioned regulation, ensuring that Vermonters understand if they wanna develop around the shoreline what's required, if they wanna encroach into a lake with a raft or a dock or a pipe, what's required and what isn't required, some of those activities are exempt from permits, others require permits. And then as I said, all the aquatic nuisance control activities, some of those require permits and we regulate those activities as well. So those are the main categories and I know it's a nice mix of monitoring and understanding what's happening in the lake doing some regulation to ensure that the state laws are held up and doing a lot of outreach with the public so folks can understand what the conditions of their lakes are and how to manage property in a way that's lake-friendly and if they wanna get involved with improving water quality in the lakes, what steps they can take. Well, speaking of getting involved, I know there are a number of projects you mentioned on the website and other materials. Tell us about the day monitoring. Yeah, we're lucky to have this rich dataset also going back 40 years where trained volunteers agreed to go on a lake or upon at least eight times per summer and collect three, really three types of data. They collect water samples which we analyzed for total phosphorus and we also a second water sample that we filter and then analyze for chlorophyll A which is a measure of biological productivity and growth on the lake. And they also measure the water clarity using a sort of a colored disc that they lowered down into the water and see how many meters it is before they can't see the disc anymore. And those three pieces of data, phosphorus, chlorophyll and clarity can really tell us a lot about the lake's health. So we rely on these volunteers to do that. They're trained and given equipment and we pick up the samples from them periodically over the course of the summer to be analyzed at a state lab. But it's really the work of the volunteers that has given us an idea of how our lakes are doing. What are the trends that we're seeing statewide? How do our statewide trends compared to what's happening throughout this region? And that data has been really influential. Some of that data let us know that in lakes where there's a lot of shoreland development, we were seeing some increasing phosphorus trends and some way some water quality trends and that helped really create the justification to pass the shoreland protection act seven or eight years ago. And then today we use that data to make decisions about does this lake need to be restored or is this lake of such great water quality that we should try to increase protections for it to maintain it as it's much easier to maintain a lake at excellent water quality and much more cost effective as well than to try to restore it once it's water quality has become degraded or impaired. So the volunteer lake monitoring program operates yeah about 75 lakes and about 10 sites on Lake Champlain and if folks are interested in monitoring a lake in this way just reach out to us there's contact information on the Vermont DEC Lay Monitoring Program webpage and we're always happy to consider bringing on new volunteers at new water bodies. So that's a great way to get involved but if going out eight times or more in a summer may be too difficult. There's other ways to get involved that aren't as demanding. We train volunteers to make observations about whether or not they see cyanobacteria or blue-green algae on the lake. It's not what that is, cyanobacteria. We used it quite a bit today. Tell us what that is. So that's a form of algae. It's often referred to as blue-green algae. We also use the term phytoplankton but it's a single cell organism that grows in our waters and can really benefit and take advantage of conditions that are conducive to its growth. And so think about some of the large shallow bays on Lake Champlain, Mrs. Goy Bay, St. Albans Bay. These bays get warmer in the summer. There's a lot of nutrients flowing into these bays through the tributaries on the Mrs. Goy River, for example, the Rock River because of land use in those areas. And so the blue-green algae is able to take advantage of the warmth, the sunlight and the nutrients to grow very quickly and that creates these blooms. They're often green in color. They can have a pretty nasty odor. And you see those and you don't wanna go in the water. You wanna stay away. And that's the advice we give people as well because as I said earlier, very rarely they can become toxic. And we did have a number of dog fatalities a number of years back in Vermont because of toxic blue-green algae blooms. So I would say for the water quality challenges that we're dealing with in Vermont, these blue-green algae or cyanobacteria blooms are one of the largest challenges in our lakes that we're trying to address and really prevent from getting any worse and try to limit the spread and extent of these blooms in the summer months. And that's an uphill battle, but it's something that we are very focused on. And so getting back to how folks can get involved, we're always looking for volunteers both on Lake Champlain and also our inland lakes to make weekly observations, but just walking by the lake is suitable on absence or presence of these blue-green algae or cyanobacteria blooms because that data helps us look at trends and see where the hotspots are for these types of blooms during the summer and fall months. So that's important. Then the last thing we would another way folks can get involved is we have a program called Vermont Invasive Patrollers where we also want folks to help us identify any invasive species. So that also requires some training and if you're interested in plants or you're curious about some of these invasive animals like zebra mussels, this might be a good one for you and our Vermont invasive patrollers are our eyes and ears on the ground and have helped us identify outbreaks of invasive species in a water body where they haven't been historically and then we can respond very quickly to try to eradicate the threat at that point. So that's a good one. But I think it's also important that the folks know that the ice out form is an example of how you can communicate with us. If you see ice changing on your lake, let us know. You know, and we're always, we always want to hear from people about what's happening on their lakes and ponds. So the Vermont DC lakes and ponds staff all our contact information is on the webpage based on our area of expertise and we rely on input from Vermonters to just hear what's happening and then if you think you've seen something happening on your lake that may not be in compliance with the state statute, the DEC has a environmental enforcement page where you can make an anonymous report about something on the tap in a lake that may seem odd or something's dumping sand into a lake. I haven't seen that before. Maybe it's, maybe there's a reason for that. Maybe it's permitted, but maybe you're not. And so you can make an anonymous report on this environmental enforcement page and then we'll look into it and see what's going on. I know every, every few years there's a lot of attention on invasive species, particularly with plants. And I think we had the snail daughter or a snail bore or something a few years. Tell us whether the, what are the big ones that you're concerned about and where do they come from? Well, our waterways are connected in many ways. You know, you can think of physically connected where Lake Champlain, you know, excuse me, drains, it doesn't drain it. If you follow Lake Champlain South there's a canal, the Champlain Canal and that eventually connects to other waters in the state of New York. But when folks move boats around from one water body to another, you know, that can bring animal and plant material and spread both native but also invasive species, species that haven't been here historically and can alter the ecosystem in ways that may not be desirable and may threaten native plants and animals once they get established here. So, you know, historically in Vermont, you know, I think it's been 40 years but a plant called Eurasian water milfoil was introduced, that's a very fast growing and aggressive plants. And it can, particularly nutrient-rich waters it can become very persistent and prevalent in our waters and interfere with recreation. So that's an example of a plant that's an invasive species in Vermont that I think a lot of folks are familiar with and we have aquatic nuisance control management activities every year to limit the spread of milfoil and water bodies where it's already established. Now, on the animal side, folks may have heard about zebra mussels. You know, these are small, non-native mussels that are established in a number of water bodies in the state, not too many yet but they're in Champlain, for example. And, you know, these can cause problems or they can alter the ecosystem as I said in ways that may make things difficult for native species. They like to set up shop on pipes. And so not so much in Vermont but other parts of the U.S. They've damaged water intake pipes and that's been costly to fix. So we're tracking the spread of zebra mussels around the state, hopefully to limit that. There's a small fish called the round goby which is not yet in Vermont but that's been in the news a bit recently as it's getting closer to Vermont. It's in parts of New York already and that would have some negative impacts on other fisheries, on existing native fish species if it does get into Vermont. So we're watching the spread of round goby and trying to put in place some measures to limit it. So, you know, through connected waterways and through boats and other things that move from one body of water to another, we see the spread of invasive species and we spend a lot of time thinking about how to limit that spread and, you know, try to preserve sort of the natural character of our lakes and ponds to the extent possible. Great. Are there any legislative initiatives or programs pending in Vermont or in the federal government or maybe even elsewhere that people should be aware of and maybe they can lend a hand with? Sure, yeah, that's a great question. It's been exciting to watch Act 76 and the clean water service providers to get stood up in the Lake Champlain and Lake Memphis Magog watersheds and that act provides funding for activities to really address some of our clean water challenges. And so specifically for lakes, there is funding for shoreline restoration projects through Act 76. And so folks that are interested in shoreline restoration on inland lakes in the Champlain and Memphis Magog watersheds as well as on those two large lakes themselves, those are important initiatives to stay abreast of a couple of other things. I think there's been an increase in our lakes and ponds in the use of motorized vessels that produce large weights for wake sports. These can be referred to as wake boats and there was a piece of legislation and it was introduced in the house this session that would have required we out of the state to put in place some regulation for wake boats under the use of public waters rule. That draft, that legislation was introduced, they didn't make crossover and so it's probably stuck on the wall as they say but the state did receive a petition from a group of concerned Vermonters requesting that we do the same thing that we come up with some regulation for the use of these motorized vessels that produce wake. So just getting going on reviewing that petition and there'll be public participation opportunities in the future and eventually we'll consider some regulation for these wake producing vessels under the use of public waters rule. You know, there's a precedent there where the state under that same rule prohibited the use of personal water crafts also known as jet skis on lakes smaller than 300 acres. So we'll take a look at this petition and see if there's compelling reason to regulate these motorized vessels that produce large wakes so that we stay consistent with our water quality standards. You know, and then finally, we are seeing some very high quality or excellent quality waters with these increasing total phosphorus trends that I mentioned. And so for those lakes, we're interested in increasing protection and we've received petitions from lake associations in towns and in four communities requesting that the state really put those lakes into a higher classification and excellent class. Has some additional protection associated with that. So that's like Caspian and Greensboro, Maidstone Lake up at Maidstone, Echo Lake in Charleston and Shadow Lake in Glover. Those four lake communities and their towns in some cases have asked the state to formally reclassify those lakes in a way that recognizes their excellent water quality. And as I said, puts in place some resources to protect those waters and add some additional statutes for protections as well. So we're reviewing those petitions and it's great to see these concerned Vermonters taking such tangible steps to try to improve or to try to protect their excellent quality waters that they love and live close to. So those are some of the things that come to mind and we're always excited to see what the legislature what other ideas legislature comes up with. I think that we've talked a little bit about aquatic invasive species work and the funding at the state level has been pretty stable for that work while the number of water bodies that are infected within invasive species has increased and the number of species is increasing as well. So it would be great to see the legislature and look at that issue and consider whether some additional funding is needed to help the state limit the spread of invasive species. Right. Finally, let me ask this in terms of community outreach and schools and civic groups and sporting groups. Tell us what your agency has available for people to get more information, speakers or websites or films and things. Just give us an idea about that. Yeah, we love the opportunity to speak with schools, associations, property owners and it's something we try to do a good job at but need to do more of and you know some of the tools that we have right now, we work directly with the Federation of Vermont, Lakes and Ponds, which is an umbrella group of lake associations from across the state and provide them with a lot of information and their members, they represent different lake associations. So that's a great and effective way we communicate with this umbrella group, the Federation of Vermont, Lakes and Ponds and they send those information back to all the different lake associations that are members. So that's one way we do, we try to do some formal training about lake friendly practices, particularly on the shorelands. Every year we do a natural shoreland erosion control training and we've had hundreds of contractors and other actors working in lake shorelands just participate in that training, get certified and that's something we do on an annual basis just so that folks are aware about some of the state of the art practices are to allow for some development to take place around the lake but do it in a lake friendly way and one that complies with statute. We do have some members of our team that go out to schools through an effort called Project Wet and do some lake related education, kind of in the realm of the overall effort to do environmental education but we don't have specific staff dedicated for that. So that's something that folks do in addition to their normal responsibilities. And again, I wish we could do more of that but otherwise, our website is a repository of information. We have, I think one of the most popular things is the depth charts for lakes because anglers use those and people who do boating recreation use those depth charts but if you stop by our website to download a depth chart you can check out some of the other things we're doing look at some of the data we have. We've just put up interactive tools that folks can look at some of our data for their lake and see what the trends are over time and we also have these very high resolution land cover maps around the lake and its watershed. So if you're curious about what's happening in my lake watershed, how much land is being used for agriculture? How much land is sort of residential or being used for property that may have impervious surfaces versus other land uses? Those maps are great as well. So yeah, those are a good example. We do go out to some of these lake association meetings in the summer months when folks are at the lakes, when seasonal residents are at their camps and folks who may be outside of Vermont in the winter come back to Vermont for the summer and talk about what we're up to. And again, we work for the state of Vermont, we work for all Vermonters. So if you have any questions just get in touch with us through our website we'll be happy to respond and try to answer any questions you have. Great, well thank you very much. This has really been fascinating and I wanna thank Oliver Pearson, the Lake and Ponds Program Manager for the Vermont Department of Environmental Consultation for being with us on Positively Vermont. This is Dennis McMahon and thank you for watching.