 I'd like to call to order the 16th meeting of the 2013 Common Council. The clerk, please read the quote for the day. Thank you, Mayor. Leadership is the art of getting someone else to do something you want done because he wants to do it. Thank you. Will the clerk please call the roll? 15 present. Next, we'll go on to the Pledge of Allegiance. Please stand adjourned. The Pledge of Allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. Next, we'll go on to Approval of the Minutes. Alderman Hammond. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I move to approve the minutes of the previous council meeting. Second. Moved in second to approve the minutes from our previous council meeting. Is there any discussion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll? 15 ayes. Next, we'll go on to our first program. Tonight, we have John Dole, the executive director of the Sheboygan County United Way to give us an update on their 2013 campaign. John, would you please come forward? The city of Sheboygan is currently running the campaign for our employees and we're gonna be wrapping that up on November 21st. Thank you, John. Hi, thanks for having me here tonight. I really appreciate taking a little bit of time. I'll tell you, just briefly, where what the philosophy is right now of the United Way of Sheboygan County, if at this very moment, we really have two strategies that are running parallel. One of them is that we raise money from a major campaign every fall, which we're in the middle of and the city is part of. In that campaign, we raised roughly about two and a half million dollars. That's what we raised last year. That's what our goal is this year. We contract and grant money to about 21 different agencies around the county. And in those agencies, we grant money to 58 different programs within. So roughly each agency, about three programs, something like that. And what our goal is, we raise about probably a little over 95% of the money that we raise comes from people like you donating through a payroll deduction and then getting matched from their company at some level or another. And that's where most of the money comes to do our work through the granted agencies. In addition to that, we have another strategy, basically, which is to identify key systemic community challenges that we all face and we try to convene leaders to find long-term solutions to things. And one of the great examples that we have done over the last couple years is the Lakeshore Community Health Clinic where we partnered with a number of people in the community. We took money that some major donors had given and we matched that money by going around in the campaign. And then we took that money and we leveraged other money for the federal government to be able to open that clinic in 2012. And that's been a very successful operation. And we continue to support that clinic and it will be expanding over the next year or so. So we found that that was a need in the community that was a long-term need that had been growing over years and we found a way to make that happen and we'll continue to sustain that. So that's the kind of thing that we're looking at. In addition to all these programs that we're financing and funding through the agencies that we partner with and the programs that they create, there are two, the current programs that we have, these 58 programs with the 21 agencies, these basically fall into really three big buckets. First, prevention, things that we, prevention just basically getting ahead of something before it becomes a major, major problem. Intervention, which is kind of intervening as we get, as the problem has manifested itself and then we go in and we try to pull people and try to help people out and to have them emerge from the challenge. And then the final one is crisis management, which is really once the person has fallen into the river, if you'd use the analogy of somebody falling into the river and then floating way downstream by the time we are able to pull them out, it's kind of a crisis and there's not much you can do with the person but we still respond to those things. So our goal really as we go forward is to find more and put more and more of the money toward prevention so that we can attack a problem upstream one of the big analogies was that there was a, you basically, if there was an ogre, picture an ogre at the top of the headwaters of a river and the ogre is sitting there just kind of throwing people into the water and then they fall into the water and then they go down the stream and eventually they're bouncing off the rocks and at some point in time there's a community we're running in there and we're pulling the people out of the water and we're trying to do the best we can to revive them and keep them going and what we're hoping to do really is to go upstream, attack the ogre, try to put the ogre out of business before he can throw any more people in the water and find solutions for some of these challenges. Some of the big challenges that we see ahead of us in the county and which we're investing money in right now but also we wanna try to convene more and more leadership to really find long-term solutions for things. I mentioned access to healthcare, which is a good example is the Lakeshore Community Health Clinic. Other ones are parent education and getting our children ready for school at the earliest age. Programs such as parents as teachers which is in the Family Resource Center in Plymouth really works with children, works with parents and teaches the parents to become the child's first parent from the time they're born to the bird. It really focuses on children from birth to three years old. So that's one really strong preventive strategy that we've found is something worth taking a look at. Mental health awareness with all of the current challenges are united in the community. We have one of the highest rates of teen suicide in Wisconsin. Wisconsin has one of the highest rates of teen suicide in the country and one of the reasons we feel that's a challenge is the lack of a mental health awareness and attention and being able to talk about things like depression and anxiety in the schools and be able to get ahead of that challenge. We feel very strongly that mental health awareness and mental health challenges often drive a lot of physical health challenges as well. So getting ahead of those we feel is a real important thing. With the heroin crisis that's kind of ballooned in the community we think that a lot of that has to do with mental health awareness. And then finally the last thing is really finding a way to distribute healthy food in a manner that everyone can get food who needs it in the community. So we're currently convening groups of people to try to figure out ways to best distribute food in the most methodical manner. Working with the food companies like Sargento and Sartori and Johnsonville and then other community leaders, the pantries and the food bank to try to figure out the best way to get food to people who need it the most. I appreciate your time and I appreciate the fact that you're all participating in the annual campaign. Really means a lot to the community and every dollar that you give is really, really respected and held in high regard and we will do our best to make sure that it gets to the right place. John, thank you very much for that overview of your campaign. We'll go now on to a second program, Gary Dalmas, the president of the Sheboygan County Economic Development Corporation is here to give us an update on their 2013 annual meeting. Gary? Good evening, I'm Gary Dalmas, chair of the Sheboygan County Economic Development Corporation. And first of all, I just wanna say thank you to the Common Council and to the city of Sheboygan for your financial support. You're one of our largest contributors to the SCEDC and I wanna rest assured we appreciate it and we're trying to be good stewards of the money that you provide for us. So I wanna say thank you. I've been asked to give a brief update about the SCEDC, our past, our future and our present or our present and our future. We're here because in 2008 and 2009, Sheboygan County experienced a wave of large plant closings where 150 businesses closed their doors. Sheboygan County in one year lost over 5,000 jobs equating to $200 million in lost income and spending power annually. The remaining companies felt the strain. As an owner of a retail business, I can assure you the strength of my company depends a great deal on the strength of those companies around me. One of the worst feelings that myself and other business leaders realized how unprepared we were to deal with the challenge of this scale. We love our community and we know we have responsibility for the economic vitality of our communities. That is why late in 2009, the Sheboygan Development Corporation became the new Sheboygan County Economic Development Corporation with a county-wide focus, a request for public support and professional staff. The mission of this partnership remains the same today as it did four years ago. It's to lead economic development efforts to improve the economic well-being and long-term prosperity of the businesses, retailers and communities of Sheboygan County. One of our first priorities was to stop the tide of companies leaving Sheboygan County. In 2010, 2011, we helped save dairy farmers of America's Plymouth facility. Over 350 jobs hinged on the ability of the company to upgrade its aging facility to cut production costs. Between the city of Plymouth, the state and Lakeshore Technical College, we were able to help the company secure $13.6 million in investments in the company by providing $1.6 million in assistance. Many of you are probably thinking this is old news, but today it's still a great company. It continues to provide 350 jobs, resulting in $220 million in payroll and benefits. In 2010, we undertook the Plymouth to Kolar Railroad Rehabilitation Project. This was an effort to restore 11 miles of railroad right away, connecting the city of Plymouth and the city of Sheboygan Falls. Okay, again to have freight rail service. The line was abandoned in 2005, leaving several companies demanding and requesting rail service. This $18 million effort was financially supported by nine entities. From our efforts and partnerships, freight rail is expected to begin service in August of 2012, making this project nearly a decade-long project. Tonight, I'm proud to share with you one of our recent successes. And this happens to be in the city of Sheboygan. SQL Polymers is a plastic compounding manufacturer that has an impressive track record for the past decade of providing 15% growth every year. To build on this success, the company has made a strategic decision to aggressively expand its business over the next five years. The company was considering expanding capacity in either Ohio, Michigan, or here in Sheboygan County by doubling the footprints of its existing research and development efforts, adding several production lines and the construction of a new 20,000 square foot office building. In October 2012, the SCEDC organized a coalition of partners to encourage the company to make their $10 million corporate expansion here. After working with the company for six months, proving that the resources of Sheboygan and Sheboygan County can best fuel their growth, SQL committed to construct their new 20,000 square foot corporate headquarters here in Sheboygan, calling it Sheboygan it's home. Construction will begin in 2012, as well as several new production lines that will be built in their current Sheboygan facilities. The company is considering adding 20 plus new jobs and expects continual growth. SQL Polymer knows that successful companies don't stand still. The same is true for successful communities like our own. By banding together, we can empower companies to ensure that Sheboygan and Sheboygan County can provide the attributes and resources needed by companies to maintain a competitive edge. After four years of empowering companies like SQL Polymer, the SCEDC to date has assisted 35 companies creating 728 jobs and providing resources to retain nearly 2,000 positions. We have exceeded our five year goal of helping companies invest $131 million in Sheboygan County. As these companies win, we all win. And as we all work together, we all can achieve great results. On behalf of the SCEDC, I'd like to say thank you to the Common Council and to the city of Sheboygan and to the county of Sheboygan for working with us when we look forward to a long, healthy relationship. Thank you for this evening. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you, Gary. Next is the public forum. Yes, we have one this evening, Carol DeSalt. Is Carol here? We have none this evening. Very good. Next, we'll go on to Mayor's announcements. First of all, I need to just say that Mark Herman was missing tonight and he's excused. Missed that on the agenda for approval of the roll call. We just finished several road construction projects. Eisner Avenue opened up last week. And opened to normal traffic. And today they finished up some work on South Business Drive and that should be open to normal traffic tomorrow. And we thank all our citizens for their patience as these roads projects progressed. Leaf collection will continue through 11-22. So this is our last week. Make a special effort to get all those leaves out in the street for the city to pick up. I'd like to point out that the JC Holiday Parade is set for five o'clock on Sunday, December 1st. And that'll be held in downtown Sheboygan. And the Rotary Making Spirits Bright Project Evergreen Park will open up on November 29th on Friday evening. And their hours are gonna be five o'clock to nine o'clock through 12-28 this year. City Hall will be closed on 11-28 and 29 for the Thanksgiving holiday. You can look to the city website for the change in holiday pickup during the week of Thanksgiving. And I wanna wish everybody a very happy Thanksgiving. And then one other note to our Sheboygan Firefighters from the International Association of Fighter Fighters, Local 483. They raised over $3,000 to provide about 70 children. New Winter Coats is a part of Operation Warm and their Coats for Kids program. So we congratulate them on that. Next we'll move on. Thank you. We'll move on to the Consent Agenda. And I need to point out that item 2.5, the desired action there is to accept and file rather than go to finance. With that, Alderman Hammond. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I move to accept and file all our O's, accept and adopt all reports of committees and put all resolutions and ordinances upon their passage. Second. It's moved and seconded to act on the Consent Agenda. Is there any discussion on the motion? Motion is before us then for a vote. Will the clerk please call the roll? 15 ayes. Under communications and petitions, item 3.1 will be referred to public protection and safety. Under number four reports of officers, item 4.1 will be held for 5.2. And items 4.2 through 4.5 will be referred to various committees. Under resolutions, item 5.1 will lie over and be held until 12, 2 of 13, our next council meeting. Item 5.2 is a resolution by Alderman Heidemann, authorizing and entering into a contract for the purchase of four tandem axle curbside trash collection trucks with a split packer bodies. Alderman Heidemann, I mean, Alderman Boren. Thank you. Heidemann, go ahead. Thank you, Mayor. Oh, excuse, I had a question on 5.1, if I may. Okay. I noticed when I read that resolution that the resolution was written, but the amount was blank. And I'm wondering if there is an amount currently or they're still working on that. That's why it's being held. Okay, thank you. Okay, then we'll go on to Alderman Heidemann on 5.2. Thank you again, Mayor. I need a motion to spend rules, second, or I'll... Yeah. Okay, suspension request is before us. Will you please vote on suspension? 15 ayes. Thank you. Okay. Then do I need to file a report of officer 4-1 first? You can do both at the same time. All right. Okay, then I put the resolution upon as pass, passage. Thank you for that motion. Is there a second? Second. It's been moved and seconded. I need discussion on the motion before us. Alderman Bourne. Is this discussion on suspension or on the document itself? No, we've already suspended the documents on the floor. Okay, thank you. Thank you, Mayor. I do have a couple of questions on document number 5-2, the purchase of the garbage trucks. Back about three or four months ago at the Public Works Committee meeting, we were discussing this with Mr. Bebel. I guess it was in his chairperson's, the department had report that day and when we were discussing this, the purchase, potential purchase of garbage trucks, at least me and possibly other committee members I can't remember for certain, but we also asked that when Director Bebel was speaking to Mr. Amodio about the purchase of these trucks, that they also consider the option of leasing these trucks rather than purchasing them. This is gonna be a million dollar investment out of the Motor Vehicle Fund and I thought with the way interest rates are right now and some potential purchases that Mr. Bebel is going to recommend in the next two or three years, my understanding is if we spend this money right now out of the Motor Vehicle Fund, the Motor Vehicle Fund will be down to about three quarters of a million dollars and so I understand the urgency of this with the saving of the $50,000, but if Mr. Amodio or somebody else has some information on the possibility and whether it would be a prudent idea to possibly lease these trucks rather than purchasing them outright and therefore spreading the cost of this million dollars over a number of years, I understand there's interest involved, but with the idea of possibly keeping the Motor Vehicle Department in a better financial position as we go forward in the next couple of years and I understand in talking with Director Bebel this afternoon that we've been replacing only about $100,000 into the Motor Vehicle Fund on an annual basis, so it's shrinking and we have a number of large purchases coming up in the next couple of years, so if anybody have, before we vote on whether we're gonna purchase these, I'd like somebody to give the Council some information on the viability of leasing these rather than purchasing them, thank you. Director Bebel or an industry or Amodio, would you like to comment? On the leasing option, leasing options for a five year deal of 3% about $240,000 a year, there's roughly $20,000 of interest in that payment, so over a five year period we'd be paying about $100,000 more for the vehicles. Motor Vehicle Fund currently has about $2.1 million in it. This request is for a little over a million. There's another request in that we're looking at for three triple axle dump trucks, which is about $650,000. We can continue to lease and pay the interest expense and stretch out the Motor Vehicle Fund for three or four years, but at the end of the day, we're gonna have to borrow general fund obligation notes to fund equipment for the Motor Vehicle Fund. That's inevitable. My recommendation would be that we don't pay the interest expense. We're trying to save $50,000 in purchasing these now, but we wanna spend $100,000 in interest expense over the next five years to do that. Doesn't make sense to me. We should bite the bullet, spend the million dollars, save the money. When Motor Vehicle Fund runs out of money, we're gonna have to go to general obligation debt, borrow that to pay for any of the equipment we need as a city. We'll never get to the point where we'll be able to, excuse me, replenish the Motor Vehicle Fund because all of the money from that comes from the general fund, and we all know the pressure that the general fund's under. So we're never gonna get back to a position where we were six or seven years ago where we had four or five million dollars in that fund. Thank you for those comments. Is there any other discussion? Alderman Bellinger. Thank you, Mayor. Could Jim or Bernie just kind of give those at home in overview of the timeline for this, why we're suspending the rules, why we're gonna go with four trucks instead of two, which was what was originally budgeted or projected. I just kinda like to give those at home an understanding of why we're doing this and what's transpired in the last few days. Director Bebel, would you like to respond to that? Good question. The original plan was to buy two next year and then two the following year. Both are Motor Vehicle Superintendent and our supervisor of Motor Vehicle of Operations. It just recently attended a conference. They found out about this national joint powers purchasing, which we're able to piggyback on national contracts in terms of what they've bid for, for type of equipment. We found that the city of New York had the exact same specification of the split rear packer that we currently use in the city of Sheboygan for recyclables and garbage collection at the same time. We checked into it. There's four vehicles available under the 2013 model yet this year. If we wait and we go out to bid for 2014, the 2014 models are already in production and already available. If we look at them, there's about a $50,000 increase or about $12,500 per vehicle. We felt that although, yes, we're asking for suspension, this was an opportunity knowing that we have to replace our garbage packers and recycling trucks that we would come to the council this evening and ask purchase for and we can save the $50,000. David, could you also describe the total fleet I think you're shrinking at? Well, right. Currently we have six garbage packers with two backup, so a total of eight. Over the years, we've maximized and optimized our routes throughout the city. We used to have 24 collection routes. Now we're down to 20 collection routes. So we have four trucks, five days a week. We pick up the entire city with four trucks. So what we're planning on doing with this is purchasing the four brand new vehicles, which would be our primary vehicles for the fleet, then retain three of our older models that have had significant repairs in fairly good condition, primarily to be used as backups, either for heavier days, holidays when we add an extra truck here or there, and then to back up and rotate as preventative maintenance and other maintenance activities. So we have that backup for those vehicles. So right now we have approximately eight primary collection vehicles and we'll have four with three backups. Thank you. Alderman Boren, you buzzed in before. I had a question for Mr. Bebel. Director Bebel, would it be possible that that company would hold those four for us until after our, what is it, December 1st we meet again here as a council? I think it's December 2nd. I emailed them this afternoon. I was in contact with them about some of the lease rates and options and that. I did not hear back from them. They do have kind of what they've, a soft hold, verbal hold on it because we knew we could, going to be going to council. I think if they don't hear officially from us, they'll probably have to release that. And then we're going to take a chance for the next two weeks. I don't know. Unfortunately, I did not get an answer today. And follow up to what Mr. Amorio said. All indications and the sources I've been reading is that the federal government in early 14 is going to be doing away with some of their quantitative easing, which means interest rates are going to be going up unfortunately. And I believe me, I don't like debt, but my concern is, is if we're going to have to borrow money in 15 and 16, what are the interest rates going to be in 15 and 16? It might be better to pay some interest now, keep more money in the motor vehicle fund for as long as we can. And then when we do have to borrow in 15 and 16 for some of the things you need, we may be able to borrow less at a higher interest rate if we have more left in the motor vehicle fund. Also, I would like to see, at least from three possible leasing agents on their letterheads, what exactly it's going to cost. I don't like looking at figures that were pulled out of the sky this afternoon. I want to see something in writing on their letterhead so that the Public Works Committee can make a, I guess a good judgment on which way we should go on this. So I'd actually like to see this go back to the Public Works Committee. Next Tuesday, and I'm going to make a motion to that effect and so that we can make a more intelligent decision on spending a million dollars outright or leasing it and paying some interest with the idea of maybe saving money later on borrowing when interest rates are much higher. Free percent is still a good rate. What is it going to be in 15 or 16? And so I guess we can pay now or we can pay later. I would rather at least look at three different vendors where we could lease and at least see what their numbers look like and see if it makes sense. Thank you. So that is a motion to go back to send it to Public Works. A motion for re-referral has been made. Is there a second? Second. We have a second on that motion. Any other questions on the motion on the floor? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll on re-referral to Public Works? We'll be referring 4.1 and 5.2 on the vote. Four ayes, 11 noes. Motion fails. We're back to the original motion. Alderman Hammond. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. Mr. Bevely, you left too soon. Sorry, just want to see you get your exercise in for the day. Can you help me understand maybe these new trucks? I'm a garbage truck novice. So what the useful life is, and before you answer that, just a comment on Mr. Bourne's, the Federal Open Market Committee released their minutes of their meeting recently, and according to them, and also the soon to be Federal Chief, Fed Chief Ms. Yellen have indicated there's no foreseeable change in interest rate policy. And now foreseeable would probably be mid 2014 and beyond. So I'm not terribly concerned as somebody that kind of lives and breathes this every day, that interest rates are gonna be going up in the next six months to a year, but I thought I'd just point that out. But Dave, the useful life of these trucks, I know it's given top winners, but. It depends. The new trucks will probably have a life cycle of eight years. The prior trucks, we thought we'd get eight years out of them. They lasted six, and we've been patching them and keeping them going as we've been. We've probably got an additional two years out of them. Now, even if the Council so wishes to approve this, there's a tremendous long lead time on these vehicles. It's probably gonna be another six months before we would even get them. So it just further delays, I guess, the inevitable. We're getting along. We have tremendous amount of maintenance expenses with our current fleet, as I mentioned. But it typically, a garbage packer should get eight years. And all of them in here? Thank you. You mentioned maintenance expense. By buying the new trucks, what do you believe that maintenance expense will be reduced by? Well, the three worst ones that we've have in the fleet, they're right around between 10 and $12,000 annually that we're spending just on maintenance on those. Between hydraulics, wear metal on the push plates and in the packing mechanism, they're tired. So they're taking a lot of extra time and effort and expense in terms of maintenance. Thank you. Is there any other discussion on this motion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll? What are we voting on now? We're voting to pass the resolution and accept and file the RO that goes with it. All in favor? Thanks, Mayor. I just wanted to point out something when I was reading the document today, 5.2. There's a typo in there, which is under the final resolved on the first page, the second line. It says Bruce Municipal Equipment of Milwaukee for the purchase of two, TWAO. And then right after that, it's foreign parentheses. So if we're gonna have a document that's up the oil, that typo should be taken care of because there's gonna be a conflict. But what we're asking for, I do read the documents. We'll have public works done be a new one. All right, thank you. Thank you, any other discussion? Clerk, please call the roll. 14 ayes, one no. Motion passes. Next we'll go on to items 5.3 through 511. We'll be referred to various committees. Under reports of committees, we have item 6.1, which is an RC by law and licensing recommending granting alcohol beverage license number 2969, an extension until January 22nd to open for business. Alderman Vanderweel. Thank you, I move the RC be accepted and adopted. Second. We have a motion on the floor. Is there any discussion on that motion? The none will the clerk please call the roll. 15 ayes. Passes. Item 6.2 is an RC by salary and grievances recommending filing resolution number 81 of 1314 by Alderman Borne calling for an update and review on the compensation package for the city of Sheboygan fire chief on the basis that in 2012 the city updated the compensation package for all non-represented employees and under the plan the salary grade for the fire chief is a grade 15 minimum 91,037, midpoint 113,797 to a maximum of 136,556. Alderman Donahue. Thank you, Mayor. I move that the resolution be accepted and adopted. Second. It's been moved and seconded. Is there any discussion on the motion? Alderman Borne. Thanks, Mayor. When I submitted this document a couple of weeks ago I thought after the announcement that Chief Herman is going to be retiring I thought it would be a good idea to possibly look at the compensation package for our new fire chief and possibly get some comparables to what other communities in Wisconsin are paying their fire chiefs. And I asked, unfortunately I was not able to be at the Salary and Grievance Committee meeting last Monday night because of a wake but I asked in my email that I sent to the HR director and the chairman of our Salary and Grievance Committee that as a courtesy that the document be held until I could attend a meeting. Well, they decided to file it but I have done some, I would like the document to go back to Salary and Grievance because I've had some time this morning to do some research on some comparable cities, West Dallas, Walnutosa, Oshkosh, Manitowoc and La Crosse and without going, I'll save the big detail for if it goes back to Salary and Grievance but I found that with those communities the average starting salary for a fire chief is $81,280. Our starting salary is $91,000. So it's a difference of, we offer $9,757 more than those communities. The mid-range, I was able to get three mid-ranges and the average mid-range salary was $91,835. Our mid-range is $113,797 for a difference of $21,962. The maximum for the city was, as you read, Mayor, was 136,556 with the five communities that I mentioned, their average salary, their maximum average salary for a fire chief is $104,145.60. So if you take our maximum salary along with those comparables, we potentially could be paying $31,884 more for a maximum salary compared to those comparables. And when you look at what we're paying going back to the starting salary of 91037, I figured 13% of that salary going into the Wisconsin retirement fund that we have to pay plus 88% of our health plan, which is $18,304. So on a starting salary basis, the city of Sheboygan could be paying $121,446. The mid-range of our salary of $113,797, 13% of that into WRS is $14,794 and 88% of a family health plan is $18,304 or $146,895 all in for mid-range. And then on the maximum, taking our 136,556 and taking 13% of that that we pay into the Wisconsin retirement fund, plus if the new chief has a family plan, another $18,304, we have the potential at the maximum salary and benefits to be paying our new chief $172,612. And if we take those figures and compare those to the comparables, we're gonna be paying potentially all in for the maximum for the comparables is about 136,583. So we have the potential of paying our new fire chief at maximum $36,029 more than cities of like size in Wisconsin. And those are the only five that I call. But do I have a problem with us paying more than our comparables in order to get good candidates? Absolutely not. But I can see us maybe paying 1,000 or 2,000 more than the comparables in each category. The last time apparently our salaries were quite attractive when Chief Herman came on board because we had over 40 applications for the job back and I believe it was 2008 or nine. So our salary must have been quite competitive then. But in my humble opinion, what I found today and just making a half hour of phone calls were way, way out of line with what the comparables are. And again, I have no problem with paying more than the comparables but I don't think we should be paying $36,000 more potentially for a chief. So that's why I would like the Salary and Grievance Committee to take a look at this and see if we could come up with a compromise on the salaries that's a little bit more in line with our comparables. I remember when Mr. Amorio was talking about the budget for 2014, he was saying 79% of our budget is salary and benefits. Well, this is a good example of why 79% of our budget is salary and benefits when we don't compare favorably with other cities in Wisconsin or what they're paying their professional help. So I'd like to make a motion to send this back to Salary and Grievance for at least for us to take a look at a compromise when we hire the new chief, thank you. Okay, I have a motion to re-refer 6.2 to Salary and Grievance. Is there a second? Second. They have a motion and second and a discussion on re-referral. Be none or the clerk, please call the roll out. Alderman Donahue. Just to maybe put Alderman Bourne's numbers in perspective. Before I became an Alderman, I did have the honor to serve on the Police and Fire Commission. I chaired that commission for a year during my five-year term and was involved in the hiring of both a fire chief and a police chief. It is a complicated, difficult process because what you're looking to do is hire the chief executive officer essentially for one of our critical departments. Now, here's how the process goes so that Alderman Bourne can I think maybe be a little bit more reassured about the fact that we are not going to be spending probably $176,000 on our new fire chief. First of all, the Police and Fire Commission does have by a state statute and our ordinance the authority to make an offer to a candidate. Now, typically you do get a lot of applications. As with most positions of this kind, I think that the Police and Fire Commission is going to find that although the pool may be quite wide, it may not necessarily be particularly deep. So there may be a small number of candidates who are actually qualified according to our job description, which requires either a bachelor or master's degree. Once that offer is made, the common counsel, and then first of all through salary and grievance, will be meeting with the person to whom the offer has been made and negotiating a salary and benefit package. That gives us the opportunity to look at that candidate's qualifications, the range of abilities that that person has and also our own particular financial circumstances. Now, as always, I do appreciate Alderman Born's energy and resourcefulness in obtaining information for us and to get all of those numbers. For myself, I'm going to need, once we do have a candidate and once we've not scared off potential candidates who may be concerned about a possible atmosphere in this city that might not necessarily be conducive to negotiating a salary. I do look forward to reviewing those numbers and taking a look not only at the numbers that Alderman Born presented to us, but the job description, the qualifications of the candidates and so on and so forth. The re-referral now actually, what it does is puts the proverbial horse in front of the cart. In other words, before the police and fire commission can start to advertise for a chief within this pay grade, salary and grievance according to Alderman Born is going to be doing a pretty thorough review of all of the cities and all of the job descriptions because we want to get more than just numbers. We want to understand the entire picture. I don't know quite how long that would take. In the meantime, Chief Herman, who is leaving at the end of December and I'm sure there will be an interim chief appointed, but that process is going to be set back. Now, from my perspective, I would like to see what the pool of candidates looks like. I can tell you from my experience on a police and fire commission, you'd be surprised maybe 40 people applied, but probably 38, you know, I'm just pulling numbers out, but based on my experience, there aren't a lot of candidates to choose from. Let's just put it that way. So let's do this the way the city ordinance and state statutes presented. Let's give, first of all, the police and fire commission the chance to get the search going. And then I do believe, and I do appreciate Alderman Born's obtaining of this information and I think we can ask our HR director to do an even more thorough and more comprehensive search and just take a look at what we wanna do. To do it now is not good for the city in terms of getting that, in terms of getting that process going. And I don't know who would get 176,000 a year, maybe Smokey the Bearer, but other than that, I'm not sure. Thank you for those comments. Is there any other discussion? Alderman Born. Thank you, Mayor. I believe the Fire and Police Commission is gonna start advertising for the position soon. And if it's going out there that the starting pay is 91, the mid is 113 and the maximum is 136, those people are gonna be applying on that basis. And it's gonna be very, very difficult for us to moderate that at a later date if they're applying under those, under that scenario. And if they work for other departments, a lot of times they have to be applying in confidence but that doesn't always turn out. I would like, as I said, the reason for sending this back with information that I'm providing plus what the HR department can provide, I would like to see us come up with some kind of a compromise as far as the starting, the mid and the max to be more realistic as to what our other cities, like cities are paying. I don't think it hurts to have that discussion. I just don't. I just think putting that out there at 91, 113 and 136 and then having to possibly go back on that, I don't think that's a good idea either. Thank you. Thank you for those comments. Any other discussion? If not, would the clerk please call the roll and re-referral. Jim. Oh, sorry. Six eyes, nine nose. Motion's defeated. Item 6.2 is before us. The motion is to accept and adopt. Is there any other discussion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll? Hold on just a second. 13 eyes, two nose. Motion passes. We'll move on to item 6.3, which is an RC by finance, recommending authorizing a transfer of appropriations in the 2013 budget, establish revenue and appropriations for industrial parkland improvements, utilizing the proceeds of land sale. Alderman Hammond. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I move to put the resolution upon this passage. Second. Moved and seconded. Item 3.6.3 rather is on the floor. Is there any discussion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll? 15 eyes. Motion passes. Next is item 6.4, which is an RC by finance, recommending authorizing transfer of appropriations in the 2013 budget to establish appropriation for advance to tid number 15 for development incentive to be repaid with interest from future increments. Alderman Hammond. Thank you again. I move to put the resolution upon this passage. Second. Been moved and seconded. Item 6.4 is on the floor for discussion. Seeing no discussion, will the clerk please call the roll? 15 eyes. Motion passes. Item 6.5 will be referred to the city planning commission under ordinances. Item 7.1 is in ordinance by Alderman Carlson, providing that the court cost collected by the municipal court shall be increased to $38. Alderman Carlson. Thank you, Mayor. I would first like to make a motion to suspend the rules. Second. We have a motion for suspension. Will the clerk please call the roll on suspension? Understood. Alderman Van Akron. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I would just like an explanation for the need on the suspension and why we're not sending it to committee. Alderman Carlson. Under suspension, the 2013 Wisconsin Act 23 just increased the possible ranges of the court fees. Traditionally, the city of Sheboygan has always been at that max. I believe the court has been pushing for this for a couple of years now. It has finally moved through the legislator so this does allow us to increase our fees by $10 up to $38. Five of that goes to the state and the rest stays here in the city within the court system. Thank you for that explanation. Any other discussion? Okay, then we're still voting on suspension. 14 ayes, one no. Okay, under suspension then, Alderman Carlson. I move to pass the ordinance. Second. Thank you for that motion and support. The ordinance 7.1 is before us. Any discussion on the ordinance? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll? 14 ayes, one no. Motion passes. Item 7.2 will lie over. Item 7.3 through 7.5 will be referred to the city planning commission. Under matters laid over, item 8.1 is resolution 76 of 1314 by Alderman Carlson and Vercy, approving the capital improvements program recommended by the capital improvements commission for the program period of 2013 in adopting the program for implementation. Carlson. Thank you, mayor. I move to put the resolution upon its passage. Second. I moved and seconded to put the resolution under 8.1 upon its passage. Any discussion on that motion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll? 15 ayes. Motion passes. Item 8.2 is resolution number 77 of 1314 by Alderpersons Hammond, Carlson, Bellinger, Heidemann and Dassler to implement a post issuance compliance policy for tax exempt and tax advantage obligations and continuing disclosure for the city of Sheboygan. Alderman Hammond. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I move to put the resolution upon its passage. Second. I moved and seconded to put resolution 77 upon its passage under discussion. Alderman Boren. Thank you, mayor. I read this over this resolution over this morning and I'm just wondering if this is an update of an existing program or is this a brand new program that we're implementing? Alderman Hammond. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. This would be a new program. Just a guideline of how we're going to deal with post issuance compliance matters and again, something that was uncovered during audit. Thank you. Thank you for that comment. Any other discussion? Seeing none, will the clerk please call the roll? 15 ayes. Under other matters, city attorney. 9.1 is an arrow by the city clerk submitting various license applications for the period ending June 30, 2014 and June 30, 2015. That'll be referred to law and licensing. 9.2 is a resolution authorizing the mayor to execute the joint powers agreement for Sheboygan County of city Sheboygan 911 emergency systems. That'll be referred to public protection and safety. Next we'll go on to closed session. Alderman Hammond. Thank you, Mr. Mayor. I move to convene in a closed session on the exemption provided in section 19.851E, Wisconsin statutes for the purpose of deliberating regarding the proposals for management of the Harbor Center Marina where competitive and bargaining reasons require a closed session. Also under the exemption provided in 19851E, Wisconsin statutes for the purpose of deliberating the possible purchase of public property for competitive and bargaining reasons require a closed session. And finally under the exemption provided in section 19851G for the purpose of conferring with legal counsel for the city who is rendering oral or written advice concerning strategy to be adopted by the body with respect to litigation, which it is or likely has become involved in. Okay. Thank you for that motion and support. Will the clerk please call the roll for a closed session? 15 ayes. Motion passes. We'll take a five minute recess.