 Nigeria is bleeding, nobody is safe again, says ex-Jukawa Governor Alhadi Shule Lamidou and mass expulsion looms as the APC goes tough on litigants while a crisis in Enugu APC causes a former speaker and ex-governor to be expelled. Interesting. Well, this is Plus Politics and I am Mary Anna Kohn. I guess the big question tonight is, is anyone really safe in Nigeria? Because the former governor of Jukawa State, Alhadi Shule Lamidou, certainly thinks not. He lamented the high spate of insecurity in the country, saying that Nigeria is bleeding. Lamidou added that no one is safe in the country. He also said that former President Olu Shagon Basantro had reinforced his faith in the country despite the appalling situation. Now, during the course of the year, several leaders and other family members have suffered attacks. A most recent example is a murder of the son of Senator Balana Ala by a known gunman. Earlier in June this year, Kanush State Governor Abdulahi Ganduje and his Jukawa State counterpart, Mohamed Baduru, had narrowly escaped being attacked by bandits on a highway linking Zamfara and Kanush State. Well, joining us to discuss this is Terence Kwanum, he's a security expert and Shagun Shopitan, who is a good governance advocate. Thank you very much, gentlemen, for joining us. Thanks for having me. Great. I'm going to start with you, Terence, because it now sounds more like, I don't want to make it sound like we don't value the lives of people that are dying, the lives that are being lost every day, but it sounds more like music because every day we're saying this person is kidnapped, 100 people were killed. It's just now numbers. But when you hear, no one is safe in Nigeria, does it sound a bit over exaggerated or is it our reality today? No one is safe in Nigeria and it's the reality. But the good news at the moment is that people that have given the interest that the free people have needed all along to be able to change this family and these terrorists from the bush have started coming up. Because in time past, we have seen people like Governor Otto have tried out that the people that are killing these kind of people are free people and the people. But there were policies that were involved in the whole process. But of reason we have seen the Governor of Platinum say who has come out to openly confess that the people who are killing people are fellow people and people like him are from the same ethnicity and that they know them. Now if we have very few of the free people in this country, it means that they have had enough interest to be able to go after these people because the Governor has told this country that they know the people that are attacking them. They will have the likes of King Gumi that have come up to tell us that they are coming so to go to meet these bandits. And then we have the Miyachi Aragou that have not their own claim. So we ask the security people to have due on to this interest and be able to send these people in the bush once and for all because now the bandits and the unknown government they have faces now. And so it's for them to be able to go out and get them. And another issue that we have been seeing like this time is the use of technology. Because we know that we have a lot of ongoing cases in this country and we know that the forest we are talking about these people who spy them they are part of our ongoing situation. The security you can be able to track these people exactly at their location or the effort to be able to hit them from this location. So everything we are facing in this country is the magnitude of the political leadership and our security system because we have enough interest at the moment now to be able to make Nigeria at least have a style of relief. Now there have been calls asking that Nigerians defend themselves and this is not the first time. I mean the Katsina State Governor has said it. The Defense Minister has said it. A Phenifer has said it. I mean literally everybody is calling for Nigerians to take up arms and defend themselves against terrorists when we have security agencies and you have also pointed to the fact that there seems to be too much of politicizing this security issue and that's why we are where we are. Don't forget also that on the other hand we have so-called repentant terrorists who have come to say that they are sorry and want to be reintegrated into society and the Army of course has its plates full having to deal with debriefing them and knowing whether they can be brought back into society or not. That's on the one hand. And then you have people like the Governor of Benue State who is saying that the federal government is not dealing with this issue as it should be dealt with. So I'm asking what exactly do we tell people who are on the receiving end of this banditry, this brutality because they are losing families, they are losing loved ones. I mean even our soldiers who have lost their comrades in the line of battle. What do we tell them? Because it seems like there's so many voices but there's not one voice telling us exactly what we need to do or what direction we should go in. The only thing you give to an arrester is to make sure that you go into the bush and offer the political leadership that we are able to end this fight. We have lost a lot of citizens that cannot even count. We have lost a lot of communities that cannot even count. Nobody is there in this country, no highway is there in this country at the moment. So the only thing that can give people a little sign of relief is to be able to tell these terrorists that we know. We know people that have come here to say that these people, they know who brought them. There's a lot of people there that defy left, right and center in the north. So it is for the political leadership to be able to lead a secretive presence for them to save them. You cannot even bring these people to the bush and begin to talk of amnesty. People who are discussing amnesty, how have you been able to resolve with the communities that have been affected? People that these people know have been killing them. You have been subjected to the oppression with them. How are they going to feel free with them? So amnesty first starts with the resolution of this community and then secondly you need to have a program of reintegration into the society. We don't even know what they have done that they are releasing them back to the society. And remember, the first time that this issue took place we came back to realize that the same person that was reintegrated into the society went and learned and attacked and pushed our military personnel and we lost very senior military personnel in that direction. The other time somebody that was reintegrated went and killed his family and took away the cows from the family and this program has not been successful. It is not about bringing people to reintegrate into the society and we also know that amnesty has been giving all over the world that it is the process. It is not something you just wake up one day and bring somebody who has been killing Nigerians all along to reintegrate into the society. It also works that way. So I think they should form the rule of law and they should be able to work with Nigeria and work with the eastern and western so that they can be able to help them. Just recently, the government of self-security have said that the leaders of Boko Haram are now residing in Saudi Arabia. So it is a security report that the real Boko Haram is residing in this place. What is happening is that the president is going to start in Kanduna and switch out these people. So the challenge we are having is that with all the aid that we are getting from the people that are affected, the security people are doing something about it. It obviously means that there is a problem in the political leadership. So if anybody invents the security leadership to be conflicted, the president is right. Let's move on. Let me move to Shagun. This evening I was just watching the news and I saw a story about Mieti Allah. But before we go to that, let's backpedal a bit. We see the situation of things as it is right now and you and I were just chit-chatting before the show began. We want to know exactly. We all are saying the same thing that there is some level of insecurity, more unusual than it used to be. I want to ask why you think he has deteriorated to this point? Who is responsible for the deterioration? When he did start, what kind of push and energy were we getting from security agencies in collaboration with federal government to deal with this issue? And who is responsible for why he has gotten this bad? When you are done answering that question, we will go to the Mieti Allah issue. Okay. Alright, Marian. You said some things now that I think we need to interrogate. One of the things that I've always tried very, very hard to do as far as the national issues and the national narrative is concerned is I try to avoid what I would call the bandwagon and I try to interrogate issues as much as possible and I try to make sure that whatever I am saying is evidence-based, right? So, you know, you hear the headline and headlines are, you know, they are newsmakers, they are click-click attractors and they are paper sellers, right? So you hear the headline and it's very attractive. But if you look beyond the headline and actually look through, dig into the numbers and the numbers are there for anybody that is really interested, you find that perhaps we may be playing a dangerous game or playing into the hands of the enemies with all of this narrative that we drive, Marian. So, now what do I mean by this? Boko Haram, a terror organization and what do terrorists do? They create terror. They scare people. They want people to be afraid to live their normal lives. They want people to be so afraid that they defer to them. The bandits are terrorists. Whatever name you give them, their stalking trade is to kidnap people and create enough fear of death so that they can then make, in their own case, economic gain from there. And you can go on and on, you know, about that. It would appear as though as a result of political dispositions and linens, we have played very, very nicely into the hands of these people by perhaps running a narrative that may not be backed by evidence. What do I mean by this, Marian? So, while I was preparing to speak with you this evening, I just looked for these numbers and it's sort of shocking what the numbers are saying. The numbers are saying the exact opposite of what that headline is suggesting. Now, am I saying that everybody's safe? No. Am I saying that lives are not being lost every day? No. Am I even saying that things are not getting worse in a particular way? No. You know, it's all there. You can read the headlines every day and people are dying, you know, kidnap incidents are high. But when you take a holistic view of where we've been coming from and where we are now and you break and you aggregate the numbers that you're looking at, things have actually gotten better. I mean, I know that this doesn't play into the narrative, but... Yeah, of course. I understand where you're going. I understand, but I'm going to wait for you to get there. Yeah, so things have actually gotten better and as I'm talking to you right now, I'm looking at numbers. I'm looking at a graph, a chart of... from the Nigeria Security Tracker and they have information about the various... the three major armed groups that are responsible for deaths in Nigeria. It's the Boko Haram. There's a group they call Boko Haram. Then there's a sectarian actor as they call them, which would include the bandits and the herdsmen. And then they have other, you know, armed actors where you can put, if you like, put the herdsmen in that category, then state actors. And you find that the Boko Haram incidents have collapsed. It's actually, it's shocking. So I'm looking at a graph where the trajectory of the graph since 2000 and... since 2000 and... it peaked in 2015, middle of 2015, there was a peak in 2014 and then there was a peak in 2015. But since then, the number of incidents have continued to decline until we have, you know, into August 2021. Right? So on the Boko Haram front, things have actually gotten better. For all that incident, there have been increases over the last couple of months. There was a peak in the overall, sorry, in the overall death per month, in the overall, and it's sad that we've reduced, you know, these are human lives we're talking about. So it's very, very sad. But, you know, the conversation must be hard, regardless. The peak, the highest number of deaths per month that we've had in recent times was in August, April 2020. And then since April 2020, it has declined until it went slightly up again until the end of 2021. And then from April 2021 till now, it's been on a decline. Now, this is from the Nigerian Security Tracker. This is not my opinion. I also saw an article on premium times just now that was saying that the number of deaths has declined from last week. You know, they do a weekly tracker, right? And that the number of incidents last week was much less, much fewer, significantly fewer than the one of the week before. Okay, so let me come in, because I was really waiting for you to hit the point. I totally get where you're coming from, and I understand and I support that. The numbers are declining because we're here with facts, we're here with figures. But shouldn't one life be valuable enough for us to move heaven and earth to make sure that... I asked the question yesterday to one of my guests. We keep spending monies. People are doing GoFundMe's and starting all kinds of schemes to try to get monies to pay for ransom, even though those things don't make the news. And so I asked, why do we have to spend so much money, time and energy to try to retrieve these abductees instead of devoting the same time, energy and money to make sure that it doesn't even happen in the first place? I totally understand that it's being reduced. It's being gradually getting better. But why can we not do the needful, not put the cart before the horse, deal with the situation so it doesn't keep reoccurring? Because, for example, Kaduna State, just like Kwanam said, now we hear, according to Intel, that Boko Harama has moved base to Kaduna State. And don't also forget that Kaduna has become a playing ground for these bandits. So you keep hearing about more and more abductions. It's like a game for them because, you know, maybe it's a money-making scheme of sorts. Why can't we not put a stop to it so that it doesn't even happen? This is my question. Great. Absolutely. Marianne and you are spot on. And I agree with you 100%. So let me land on my previous points. The way I was going with that previous point was to simply say that Sule Lamido's accession is chemongering and it's politics. And we have to call it out for what it is. It clays into the hands of the enemies and we must not allow it. So to say that nobody is safe in Nigeria anymore is figurative. Yes, in a sense, in a manner of speaking, we can accept that in a manner of speaking. But it's not true. So we have to say that because we must remember that these guys are politicians and they have an interest behind everything that they do. Do you know where he went to visit and where he was coming from? So that's where I was going with that. And I was just trying to back that up with the numbers. Now, to the point that you've made, and I think this is very key, it's absolutely critical that we demand, and I use that word deliberately, that we demand better action from our governments at the federal level and at the state level, which regards to the continued incidents of kidnapping, banditry, you know, it's all over the place. Even in the Southwest, you know, everybody is a bit careful about wanting to travel by road, tango that there is a rail between Libos and Nevada. Now, people are using that a lot, you know. It's critical that we insist that governments should deploy more resources and more will. It's not a matter of the resources in fact. I'm Miriam, and that's the point. So we spend all of this money paying bandits ransom. Why can't we spend that money on equipping the military, the state security services for the intelligence gallery, the police, you know, the NCE, civil defense, you know, and the other security agencies to work together and crush these guys. Look, the might of the Nigerian state if deployed with sincerity, these guys can't stand it. So clearly something is not right with the way this banditry issue has gone. You know, there's obviously some foul play somewhere. There's obviously some collaboration somewhere. There's obviously some sabotage somewhere, you know. So I think it's important that Nigerians do more by way of demanding that these things be brought under control that we're currently doing. And one of the ways to do that is to... I'm going to come back to you on that issue of Nigerians pressing home their demands. But let me go to Kwanum. Kwanum, yesterday the Middle Belt Forum had asked the federal government to name and shame those that were named by the UAE. And of course, even within Nigeria, don't forget there was a UN report about even the federal government implicated the members or people who work within the executive in the federal government of sponsoring, you know, the insecurity in the country. And the Middle Belt Forum was asking that the federal government name and shame these people are truly ready to put an end to the insecurity that we're facing in the country. But of course, the average person is wondering why the government is dragging its feet on this issue. As we speak, the UAE has paraded or has put out names of six Nigerians. They think of financing terrorism in Nigeria. But then the country in which we're feeling the pain, we're the ones who are wearing the shoe, we're the ones who are having people being kidnapped, we're the ones who are children who are yet to do the needful. And I'm wondering why, from a security perspective, is there a reason why we're keeping this under wraps or hush hushing it? Terrence, can you hear me? Terrence, are you there? Can you hear me? I think I'm going to throw the question back to Shago because I cannot, I think we lost Terrence. Shago, did you hear my question? Yeah, I heard your question. Let's see if you can attempt it, yes. Yeah, so, you know, from May, I mean, I can't give you a perspective because the points of view, since I'm not... Terrence will do that. But as someone who's advocating for fair play in Nigeria. Yeah. So the question is, I think what we need to do, I mean, I can't even answer that question because it's before late. You know, it's totally confusing to, you know, to understand why more is not being done. I think, you know, the point I was trying to make earlier was the Nigerian state can obviously do more than we're doing with regards to these things. Before a kidnap happens, Marianne, it is planned. It is planned and there are... there's a, you know, reasonably wide net of people that will be involved in that planning, right? So your intelligence society, the intelligence community need to do more. You know, I mean, what happened to sniffer devices that can listen in on conversations? You know, what happened to the fact that we know that there are people, highly placed people in society, who knows where these guys are? How come we can send some sort of maybe satellite-driven, what's it called now, listening device to hear the conversations and prevent the kidnaps? We know these things exist. We'll have the money to spend. Why spend the money paying ransom when you can actually seek the help of people with the technology required and sniff out these guys and prevent the kidnaps from happening? You know, so it's like somebody somewhere is it benefiting from this or it's too lazy to go after it in the right way? Or perhaps there are other interests and forces at play that sort of checkmates, whatever efforts the security services are making. We don't know. These are the million-dollar questions that are begging for answers, but I think we've got Terrence back. Terrence, can you hear me? We lost him again. So, I mean, we have to move on with this conversation because we're almost out of time. I want to ask you this question. A Niger Delta shift in, we all know, Robert Crack recently was quoted to ask for military intervention in the country as to the situation that we're facing. Of course, another highly-placed government official has asked for him to come and explain to us. But I'm trying to understand. We're in a democracy. We democratically elected our leaders into office and we also have tools in which we can explore to bring these people to account. Although some of those tools have been taken away from us, like protests, we're not allowed to protest. And so there seems to be a thin line between a democratic dispensation and being under a military rule. So, I'm asking, is there any grounds for Mr. Clack asking for the military to intervene in a democratic dispensation? Is that really what we need? Would that be able to save the situation or is that just preposterous outrightly? I mean, look, it's, you know, when I heard that, it said it a while back. I don't know if it said it again. But when I heard that, I was shocked. I was shocked to my bone marrow because, you know, except if you are too young to remember, you know, if you live through it, you can't ask for it. So I was into young during Abacha's reign. I was old enough to experience Buhari's first coming and Babangida after him and Abacha. And I tell you that it's a reign of terror. For the young people who think that this government is repressive and are not saying they're not, you know, but for the young people who think this government is repressive, you need to have lived through those periods of military rule. You see, because the military guy does not have any check or balance, it is gone. You know, so if he tells you do this, you've got to do it. And, you know, how dare you, you can't oppose him if you do, then you pay with your life. So it's even, and I remember, like you said, when a democracy, so we have to find the will within us to fight the fight. What is that way? Because we keep saying we still have to find a way. And I said, I was going to take you up on us pressing home our demands. How do we press home our demands? I'm curious because if we cannot protest, we cannot also go to a venting ground, which is Twitter. What are we left to? Which other tools can we explore to get our leaders to be accountable? What's the difference? People have been protesting. People protested yesterday. People are still protesting. There is no law that says you can't protest. Such a law doesn't exist. And I think it's important that we continue to remind ourselves of these things because again, like I said, there is a lot of stuff going around in the national narrative that is simply not true. We can't protest and we need to do more of it. What happened with N-SARS was a precursor for what can happen. And we've got to do that again. How many people are you going to be able to convince to do that again when the other time they presumably wanted to come out to do something similar? The police was picking up everybody randomly. Who wants to go to a police cell? For people who cannot afford it, today's Nigeria, I mean, how much is the dollar? It's $514 if I'm not mistaken. If you cannot afford a three square square meal in Nigeria, can you afford to pay for bail that is supposedly free if a policeman takes you into custody because you went out to protest? Yeah, I understand, Marianne. The point is protest is one of the ways to demand accountability. Advocacy, lobbying, civil disobedience, lawsuits. There are so many of them. And I still insist, Marianne, that we are not as Nigerians doing enough. It's not entirely our fault. Like you said, there are so many mitigating factors. The poverty in the country is ridiculous. I mean, and when we say poverty, even the middle class is poor, the Nigerian middle class is still survivalist in general. So I do understand what you're saying, but I'm just saying that we can't ask for military role. Trust me, you don't want that. Once you've experienced it, then you will know that this is just a joke. We can't ask for military role. Then the only alternative available to us is to explore the democratic instruments that are available and we can't get tired of it. They want you and I to get tired, Marianne. They want us to tell ourselves that we can't protest. They want us to tell ourselves that, oh, Twitter has been banned, we can't talk. They want us to say that we can't come on TV like this and say our mind. Nobody is ever going to muzzle me. I'm going to say what I'm thinking. They can't stop us, Marianne, from the narrative to say that we can be stopped. And if we allow that, then they won't. So we... I think I'll leave it there. But we can do more. Well, on that note, I want to say thank you. Shagun Shopritan is of ACT Network and he's been talking with us alongside Kwanum Terence but then we lost connection with Terence. Thank you very much for being part of the conversation. Thank you for having me, Marianne. All right, thank you all for staying with us. And when we return, we will be discussing the ruling APC and speculations that there might be a mass expulsion within the party as well as crisis in energy APC. We'll be right back.