 What is Zen Buddhism and why do practitioners sit around so much? What is the purpose of meditation and what does it mean to quiet your mind? These are the questions. I'm asking on the 56th episode of Patterson in pursuit Hello my friends and welcome to another episode of Patterson in pursuit I am your host Steve Patterson and this interview is coming to you from Japan I had a conversation with a Zen Buddhist monk while I was outside of Osaka, Japan And we had a conversation about the basics of Zen Buddhism I think lots of Westerners don't really have a clear conception of Buddhist philosophy or Buddhism in practice the Western mind I think has all kinds of weird and warbled interpretations of what Buddhists are actually claiming and Zen Buddhism in particular gets invoked quite often by people who like to make a really irrational and Outrageous arguments. So why is that the case? My suspicion is that it's a grand Misinterpretation of Buddhism. So in this interview I get down to some of the basics. It turns out that meditation is Absolutely central to Buddhism and there's a perfectly reasonable explanation for why that's the case So while in Japan, I actually had an unexpectedly difficult time Finding monks who were comfortable talking in an interview in English So after making a bunch of phone calls and sending a bunch of emails I found somebody who was both a monk in fact the head monk at a Zen temple Who was also an English speaker and available to talk and that was Keho Nishikaki Who is the resident priest at the Nanyoji temple in the Soto sect school of Zen Buddhism? In addition to agreeing to do this interview with me He also demonstrated a great deal of patience because where this place was was actually quite a ways away from where I was staying Which was in Kyoto and I planned on arriving about 45 minutes early But through a series of unfortunate events and incompetence on my end I wound up showing up 45 minutes late to this interview Which was nearly all of the time that we had allotted for it So I felt terrible, but being a Zen Buddhist priest Keho was very patient with me and in fact after our conversation He even gave me a guided Zen meditation experience, which I'm gonna tell you about after our conversation It was a pretty cool learning opportunity for me The sponsor for this episode is praxis if you think it's pretty neat what I've been able to do somebody outside of Academia traveling around having these conversations and these experiences in all these different countries. That's great I think it's pretty unique too. I'm glad to be able to do it But get used to it if you're interested in the world of ideas Because things have changed and I think this is going to become way more common with Independent intellectuals who don't see the purpose of going Into academia to get their formal credential to make it in the world of ideas now that kind of independence is a perfect Compliment to the company praxis what praxis does is they take individuals who are inspired who are enthusiastic about going into the Real world and skeptical of academia and they place them at paid apprenticeships where you get real-world experience that is the new and Superior process in the modern economy for starting your career You don't need to go into academia anymore for most people College is obsolete overpriced irrelevant and you learn a bunch of bad ideas So why waste your time when you have an alternative like praxis if you're interested in the praxis program go to steve-patterson.com Slash praxis PRA X is and you can learn more All right, so let's dive right into the interview with Kehoe Nishigaki at his Zen Buddhist temple outside of Osaka, Japan So first I want to thank you for being patient with me I wasted about 45 minutes of your time on the way here. I really appreciate it. Don't worry. I'm alright Yeah, yeah, I want to ask you a couple of basic questions about Buddhism because in the United States There's a lack of understanding and I'll think most people understand what Buddhism is or there's kind of a Hollywood version of Buddhism so Some people say Buddhism is a religion some people say it's a philosophy and some people say it's just a set of rituals For you you've been you said you've been here for 20 years, right? Yeah, yeah, what in the in the most broad sense what is Your understanding of Buddhism. Is it a practice or is it a set of beliefs? I think Buddhism is Yeah, you said someone religious someone philosopher, but As a first the Buddhism with the Buddha's teaching he's teaching of course 2600 more. Yeah, and then but the same same human Not not the God. Yeah and then Of course, I know a Christian or Jewish and some are another big religion, but then everyone needed God Yeah, and very very Super like a superman style, you know, but the Buddha was I think very Formal formal people I think but we respect to him for his life and he's of course his Practice and then his his teaching and then but that he's the same human. Yeah, not the special I think Yeah, I think that definitely Distinguishes Buddhism from a lot of the other big world use because your central figure. Yeah, it's a human Yeah, just a human with some seems like good ideas So let's talk a little bit about some of those ideas about the Buddha's ideas What Were some of the insights that are central to Buddhism and what do you find Persuasive about his teaching so I know in Buddhism there are the four noble truths So maybe we could go into that and talk about what those are Yeah, of course I studied the or my life but Not too special. I think just a Pure pure mind Yeah, I think just just one thing I do Yeah, he's teaching is a many words many ideas many thinking many speaks but Just one thing is clean up and then keep pure mind. Okay. Yeah So I think yeah, what is that? What is pure mind? I don't know Because we cannot see your mind Yeah, but everyone have a mind and then everyone clean up rooms clothes but mind Duty is not not to Right. Yeah, you know So, so would you say this that? really the core teaching of Buddhism is Techniques for cleaning up your mind techniques Practices for clean for cleaning up the clutter of the mind. Is that yeah? Yeah, of course, but in Japan many sect One Buddhism because we have some difference for practice we and base doesn't and then sitting and then then means Come down to keep good balance and clean up mind. Mm-hmm. Yeah but as a sect some different but Every Buddhism the key keep good balance keep good mind So for your sect that thinks Zazen is the best way to Achieve a clarity of mind Now that means for Westerners. We would say that's meditation. Yes. The same thing as meditation So what is that practice? What are you doing when you're practicing Zazen? What? What do you do you said it's sitting? Yeah, we're sitting now, and I don't feel like I'm doing it I think I think of course everyone different it dependable you and me, you know Someone just a sitting someone Some imaginations, but then meditation is a little bit different from Zazen Yeah, Zazen is keep open eyes a little bit But the meditation is almost I think yoga or some some meditation the close eyes Close and open very different. I think Yeah, and then for example Chibetang Chibetang monk Sometimes they do meditation Someone little bit open, but they're almost monk close Yeah, so what are the differences when you have your eyes open? If close Some imagination too big But I and then practice We don't nothing Yeah, you know, but it's very difficult practice. We cannot become nothing Yeah, yeah, someone thinking someone confusing someone one sleeping dreaming but Of course, we Living now, so we have some some something but just stop is then style Yeah, okay. Yeah, so for would you agree with putting it this way that one of the ways to Clear out the clutter of the mind is to try to stop the mind and one of the ways to try to stop the mind is by Says in sitting and not imagining but trying to stop all of that process Is that correct? Yeah, just a sitting Sitting is a sitting now Talking talking is talking I see and then drinking teas and drinking what one thing is very important Okay, yeah What are some of the other ways of practicing Zen Buddhism? We have the Sitting mm-hmm. What are some other? Methods for for practice other practice Yes, so so if I if somebody were to try to clear the clutter from their mind and they were to sit Mm-hmm is as in what are some other? We call Zen then means our all life sleeping eating Washing hay face, and then The all almost clean up is a practice for them long. Mm-hmm. Yeah, this is a then means big means Someone mistakes then is just a sitting practice. No, no, it's a dozen That means sitting Then means practice I think so then then means All life every speaking every motions. So everything you practice Yeah, and then of course good cooking is a one one of very important practice in the sort of sect So to school was open from Dogen master. Yeah, he's very very intelligent, but he was very simple he keep the pure mind and Very hard to teach Yeah So so there are everything is a practice. It seems like For somebody like me if I were to do if I were to cook or to clean It doesn't seem like I would be doing it in a very Zen way or in a very relaxed or or Meaningful way we kind of Hap hazard and it would almost add clutter to my mind So for a simple practice like that for cleaning or cooking. How do you turn that? Yeah, how do you turn that into a Zen practice? Maybe I think I said it to One time one thing is good. If you want to clean up your room But not only your rooms you should think because someone Visit here, especially temple at any time keep clean up is better Yeah, so if you your house is and a toilet is toilet and then Duty or not you don't care every time clean up Everyday clean up keep it's a one-on-one practice. Keep is very important Of course, everyone busy. Yeah too much and then we have Electronics and then but every day one one thing or two thing keep is better. Yeah and then today This room clean up tomorrow as a It's okay. I think yeah, and one day one thing. It's one of way to practice Yeah, but of course it depends on you. Yeah, not not every day. It's okay. If you you are busy Once a week once a month. Yeah, it's good. I think yeah So putting this all together then what you say The practice of Zen Can be experienced anywhere As long as you are Focusing on just doing the thing that you're doing you're doing one thing So when you're cleaning you clean when you're driving you drive You don't split your mind in multiple places. You're just focusing on that one area. It doesn't really matter what it is Yeah I think I want to try Okay But now is everyone busy. Yeah, so something Coring and they're cooking. Yeah, and watching TV Everything too much. Yeah, and I think too much stress. Yeah, I think I think I have my mind Is very cluttered by and and when I think about it now I'm never doing the thing that I'm doing. Yeah, so what happens then what is when you're when you're just sitting and you've Able you're able to kind of clear out that clutter of the mind do you gain insight about What is true? Do you gain insight about yourself? What is that end goal of? I'm sitting. I'm not thinking just sitting. What is that like? Is it pure experience? What is that state like to reach that? Not doing with your mind. Oh Oh Or is it not like anything? Yeah. Yeah, but yeah, of course but in Buddhism everything Accept except yeah, everything Good to sing bashing Not a pure and a pure mind everything now's condition. Yeah, everything watch yourself is Better, I think yeah, you know, okay? Yeah, so There the Hollywood version of Buddhism or the Hollywood the Hollywood. Yeah, they're like a like When they think of Buddhism there's this simplistic idea that in in the practice of Zen training and what Westerners might consider Meditation you achieve Enlightenment and you understand now some fundamental truth or nature of the universe and become some kind of a guru is that in your Sect of Buddhism, is that something that happens? Is there like a moment at which? You you understand and you become somehow enlightened about the truth or is it or is that is that a Mistaken way of thinking about it. Yeah, of course some some some some part of mistake some some some one mistakes Yes Especially young people Like a fashion style That's a one one. I think just one one style It is I think it is good. Yeah but Now is young people Of course getting older And then how they do do think about Buddhism Just a fashion or more deeper. Yeah, it dependable person But I I think you buddhism and buddha the teaching is everyone already Have a buddha's mind. Yeah but Of course it dependable Country and the condition and lifestyle everyone difference. Yeah, when I was become a monk When I was eight I decided And then of course I need in japan I need a general education and then monks Education we need both Yeah, and then in japan priest is one of Jobs like a company style. Yeah, very very different from China or other other country Buddhism style. I think very very very special But I choose Yeah, when I was kids because My grandfather was big master Yeah, and then he's teaching very very nice Sometimes very hard sometimes very Softly, yeah, of course all almost people young generation don't have it Really just too too much maybe. Yeah But uh One style is one style. Yeah, but we don't care Okay. Yeah, not not a good and good or not. I don't I don't think okay Yeah, I don't care. Yeah. Yeah. You mentioned that you think everybody has buddha's mind Okay, can you explain that a little bit more? Yeah in Zen Zen mind Everything okay You know, yeah so Yeah, of course it dependable Ma pass on the mind Yeah But the buddha's teaching is um, we we was born From buzzers Yeah, already we have a life already. We have a buddha's mind Yeah, so how we care of Ourself and our mind and then Someone can find especially buddhist people buddhist monk Everyone We are not to us, you know Just a body and mind life everything from others Yeah, of course Parents and their ancestors But the somewhere Can't come from So we are not to ourselves everything. So especially in japanese or the style in the Every life is very important Mind too. I think it's a dessert Yeah, okay, sorry, maybe not a good answer Yeah, so let me ask you then. This is a question I asked I had an interview with a professor at Harvard about buddhism And I asked her about the self What what is this? What is the eye? What is me? She said that At least in buddhism and her understanding the self is kind of an illusion It's something that isn't really there. It seems like it's there, but it's not actually there Maybe the consciousness is real, but that it's a self Is is not is not true Is what do you what is your perspective on that? You think it's not just true I do it seems like it's There is a self, but I'm not exactly sure what it is And I know in a lot of people westerners Trying to paraphrase buddhism will say oh the self is an illusion. There's no such thing as as the self I think It's my style. Okay. Sure. Maybe another Another place different. I think I maybe I'm a I think uh, I I don't like no no doubt for example some you you said uh Western people some Like like a fake buddhism. Yeah, someone maybe teach something but I think They have some information some teaching Because they they have interest in in buddhism something but uh Good way good way is better. Yeah, of course buddha's teaching is a The way for Goodness, you know, yeah But I I don't like doubt people Yeah, I try to As a first to believe and then open my yeah if if someone Is a fake or someone Tehra lying It's it's okay You know That's a Quake is a fake. I think yeah, okay, so Would you say that My own approach has been for over the last year and these conversations Doing a lot of doubt and skepticism and inquiry and trying to sort these things out It seems like your position is much more tolerant. Yeah, yeah Would you say that in terms of like the philosophy? Your you don't have strong positions on the matter or you're just open to Yeah, to everybody. Yeah, and then if everyone of course not only Japanese Many people other country stay here rich people and then someone Doctor someone Student but the I don't care Everyone say same thing and then of course Eating same same food Yeah, when they stay here. Yeah, yeah, not especially Yeah, everyone if we do Do want to Practice buddhism Same thing. Yeah, same time Yeah, but I I'm priest and the priest means teacher teacher Yeah, and the good to think I want to teach But think I don't care. I don't like it teach. Okay. Yeah. Well, thank you so much for this conversation. This is really fantastic So sorry, uh, but bad to answer It's one of them answer. Okay. Thank you so much. Thank you All right, so that was the conversation that we had and then what immediately followed Is keihou offered to give me some zin buddhist training I accepted and I've never had any experience like this So I'm going to tell you exactly what that entailed So right after the interview we got up and we went to another part of the temple Which was very ornate and had kind of beautiful shrine in the middle And in fact the the ground the floor Reminded me very much of my dojo when I was training hakuru jiu jitsu Several years ago in upstate new york. There's a kind of I think it's called tatami mat or something like that When you walk into this room, you're supposed to bow And then you're not supposed to walk on the the seams of the floor and then there's other You know you bow at the shrine and there's other bowing and there's a particular way that you hold your hands When you're walking around there So it's very kind of this part was very ritualistic and then he took me to this Wall this just plain white Wall that had like a kind of the texture of a popcorn ceiling if you know what that is And there's some cushions in front of the wall and so he sat down on his little cushion I sat down on on my cushion and he gave me just basic instruction about The correct way to sit how to put your hands what you're supposed to be doing how to breathe kind of deep into your gut and just Stare at the wall not looking actually at the wall not focusing on the wall itself Just kind of letting your your gaze soften. So you're not really looking at anything There's no amazing visual input that's coming in through your eyes So after we did that he got up and I was gazing at the wall and then he walked behind the wall And then clang the bell a few times Totally startled me, but I guess that symbolized the beginning of the practice So he hit the bell a few times and then he started Kind of walking around the the room in this temple with the shrines and I was trying not to Focus on I was trying to not focus on anything. I was just trying to sit Right the soto zin is about just sitting. So that's what I was trying to do not be distracted by him Walking around and then I think there was some kind of burning incense And he was doing that while I was sitting there and then there was quiet for It was probably only 10 minutes, but it seemed like forever and as I was Gazing at the wall and there was not not a lot of sensory input going in. I found it incredibly difficult To quiet my my my mind was giving me all kinds of anxiety because I was thinking, you know Am I doing this right? What am I doing here? I've other. I'm just sitting like Steve You're not working. You're not doing anything. You're just sitting here. Come on And then the other part of my brain was like no, no, this is it's 10 minutes calm down This is what I'm supposed to be doing. This is an awesome experience Like kind of once in a lifetime moment to have this Private session here with a zin Buddhist in japan, but it was so hard for me To calm my mind down and it took Almost the entirety of the session before I started being able to calm down on my anxiety level reduced just from sitting So after maybe 10 or 15 minutes or so He starts chanting he starts reading from some texts. I don't know. I don't know exactly know what it was It was a kind of a mixture of singing and chanting and it was nice And then what followed after that was I guess a translation Of what he had just said. I don't actually remember what the translation was I think it was just like reading from a holy book or if it was kind of an Introduction of what you're supposed to be doing or as in buddhas. I don't actually remember what it was I just remember it was the the singe chanting that was followed then by the translation Then after that he got up again rang the bell which Was the end of the ceremony told me in the correct way to leave the mat properly And that was that and then I talked to him a little bit after that I got it got a good selfie with him in front of the shrine if you go to my website steve-paderson.com slash 56 You'll find a picture there of keho and I in front of the shrine And then that was that he took me back to the train station We had a great conversation on the way where I was telling him how difficult it was Surprisingly difficult it was for me just to sit and he laughed and and I I guess this is a normal experience for beginners But it actually opened my eyes a bit Um, but both the conversation the experience and then some of the reading materials He gave me afterwards There's something here that I want to explore and I I'm going to start doing some Training some meditation training and some of the conversations you'll hear that I've had while I've been in Thailand with the the Buddhists here. They're not zen Buddhists, but they're also Buddhists. We talked about meditation Uh, I know lots of people rave about meditation. I've just not really tried it Um, but I think there is truth to be discovered I think there is a kind of mental training that comes with meditation that I want to experience and participate in It's been made pretty clear to me that my my mind is split and cluttered most of the time I'm thinking about way too many things at once and really Now that I think about it the times that I feel like I'm in the most meditative state for me Is when I'm in either the shower or the bathtub in really hot water thinking That's where I get most of my best Philosophizing done is in the shower or the tub and when I think about it and I reflect on those experiences I'm just thinking about one thing. I'm thinking about whatever Topic it is. I'm thinking about free will or the liars paradox or the metaphysics of mathematics Whatever it is in that in that really really deep and contemplative state of mind I'm just thinking about one thing So I would love to be able to experience that more throughout the day Where I don't have to split my attention and split my mind in half thinking about multiple things at once So I hope you guys enjoyed the conversation I hope you enjoyed me talking about the experience if you did you're definitely going to love an upcoming I had with a Buddhist at a Buddhist temple here in Thailand. That'll be out. I think in a couple of weeks I'm actually going to end this recording now and head to the airport. I am flying out of Bangkok today Flying to Hong Kong for one night and then I'll be heading back home to the states So that's all for me. You guys have a great week