 Hey folks, welcome to the podcast. Today I had the amazing Mel Crate from We Are Luminate come back in and we had a really cool conversation about the recent plus size Nike mannequin that they put next to their super thin ones in the Oxford Street store in London in the UK. So many things to speak about around that and social media was going crazy around that time as well. And Cancer Research in the UK have recently done an advertising campaign on obesity and again caused a bit of an upstir so me and Mel spoke about the issues surrounding those two things and really great conversation. Hope you enjoy it. Hey, it's Lewis. Welcome to the podcast. Enjoy our conversations anytime, anywhere. Cool, I'm alive. Mel, thank you very much. Come back again. Thank you for having me again. It's a pleasure. No problem, no problem. How's it all been going? It's been going good, very good. Busy, but in a good way. So yeah, all very interesting, exciting stuff. Awesome. Next, a few weeks ago, the Nike mannequin and like social media went crazy. It did, yeah. It got, I felt the conversation also diverted all these different things, pro fat shaming and all of these things. So let's talk about all of that. But for those that don't know, Nike and their store in London, they have a plus size range which they introduced in 2017. And then they put a plus size mannequin in their store next to like the traditional thin body type for females that they do. And it caused a little bit of an outcry. Yes, it did indeed. So what do you think about that? Yeah, it was very interesting when it happened. I think the reaction to it was extremely interesting and wasn't necessarily what I would have predicted it would be, but there was a lot of journalists or fitness bloggers or fitness or health experts coming out to criticize that move of putting a plus size mannequin there of saying it's encouraging obesity. It makes people feel like it's okay to be that size. That actually that size is unhealthy and we shouldn't promote it as something to kind of aspire to or something to even accept in our society. Which I personally think that's a very damaging view. I think it's hugely unhelpful on a number of levels. But firstly in that, we're trying to work towards a society that is more inclusive. So that includes inclusivity of everybody, not one demographic. And I feel like those attitudes are really unhelpful and very uninclusive. And particularly, I think the fitness world or the exercise world can be seen as very elitist. If you don't have the right leggings and the right gear and you can't run up a treadmill at 20 kilometers an hour then you're not included in this world. And actually it's not for you, which is not what we want because we want people to be moving more or whatever that movement looks like for them. True. The end goal is to get people moving their bodies more, which is what we were designed to do. So when you're telling people, actually we're not making workout gear for you or we're making it, but we're not gonna display it openly in the store because that's not really what we want people to look like or that's not what we think fitness looks like. It feels to them that, you know, we're not part of that elitist world. And I think it puts people off exercise even more. It's interesting, yeah. When I first saw it and I was speaking to some friends about it, all those different points came up. But if you just boil it down, it's just a really good marketing. Yes, absolutely. And lots of people have commented on that as well. Yeah, because really it was just marketing. And so I think it was size 14. It was bigger than that, I think. Was it bigger? It was supposedly a 16 to 18. Oh, okay, fine. Which is I think what people have- Is that the average? Isn't it like 14 or something? The average, yeah, fluctuates. I think it's between a 14 and a 16. Okay. Plus size, traditionally, or in the last couple of decades, has more been really- That's plenty of size. No, much, much slimmer than that. So a plus size model is somebody that could be a size 10 or 12. But that's considered plus size in the modelling world. Right, right. Because most models have been, you know, a six or an eight or even smaller at times. So actually, I think the problem that a lot of people had was, well, if you put a size, a mannequin that was a size 14 would be okay with that. But as this one's verging on a size 18, actually, that's too big for what we consider is acceptable within the plus size world. But they obviously thought that there was a, there are a lot of women who want to buy clothes at that size. And therefore, you know, when you see this mannequin, you're like, I'll call, I want to be like her and I can wear these clothes and stuff. Yeah, I think, you know, the way people have lashed out at it, I think is quite a simplistic view as well. People come in all shapes and sizes, as we know. And actually, it's just giving them fitness gear to wear that feels accessible to them and that they can see on a mannequin. I don't think it encourages obesity any more than saying, you know, having an LGBT plus LGBTQ plus group within a workplace encourages homosexuality. You know, it's actually just saying, we're including that, you know, people do wear that dress size and we sell those clothes. So why not put it on a mannequin for people to see? Yeah, but social media, it just brings out the worst in people. And you have these extreme, because really you have quite extreme views on either side. Yeah, of course, you'll always get that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And the people that are kind of like fat-shaming, let's say, inverted commas. I mean, their views seem to be, you know, we shouldn't encourage people to look like this. Yeah, I mean, well, I'd ask you this question, you know, if you walked into a shop and saw a mannequin that was, you know, an equivalent of a male size 18, would that make you go around the corner and buy a cake and eat it in one sitting? You know, it probably may go to the gym and work harder. You know, it doesn't work that way, I don't think. I think it's a few that if we say it's OK to be that size and everybody's going to go out and put on more weight, I just don't think it works like that. I think for Nike, they need to be representative of the country or whoever their customers are. Absolutely. Yeah, which, you know, they say exercises for everyone, but unless we demonstrate that by providing clothing for everybody and clothing that people want to wear as well, not all plus-sized women want to shop in specialist shops. They want Nike gear. They want, you know, the gear that everybody else is wearing. And why not? No, that's true. That's true. Interesting. And so what do you think, like, healthy is then? Because then the topic then moved away from like this called Nike advert mannequins to what is healthy and... Absolutely. And, you know, I recognise that I can't sit there and define that for anyone. There is so many different measures of health. And I think part of the problem was in that debate is, you know, it was obviously people on social media who were lashing out talking about it, but there were also people in our national newspapers writing about it, you know, supposedly qualified journalists. But when you look at that, you think, OK, that's your opinion on it, but you're not a doctor or a medical professional or a nutritionist. So who are you to judge whether that is healthy or not? I think, again, we look at health quite simplistically in that some... When it's something we can see, we feel more comfortable to judge it. But we know with health. Obviously, we've spoken about mental health before in particular. And that's an area of interest for me. That isn't something you can see or judge. So we have a very different view of that. And health, you know, there are so many different things to take into view there rather than just body fat, which is what we tend to focus on because it's something we can see and something that feels tangible to us. But, you know, there are all different things going on from mental health, obviously, even looking at... There's so many different things within that cardiovascular health. There's dental health. There's so many different elements that we just never really think of. And there isn't the same stigma attached to in the same way that there is, I think, when we look at body fat as a whole. So it could be one marker of health, of course, but it is certainly, by no means, the only one. And we know there are lots of women who will be a size 18 who do exercise and will probably have better cardiovascular health than somebody who might be a size eight but never exercises. No, 100%. I went to my CrossFit gym, I think it was like a couple of years ago, and I walked in, and there was people of all different body shapes. Yeah, and I had this in my mind. I looked at one of the guys and he was really, really big. I was like, okay, you know, it can't be too fit. That was the first thought that went on my mind. I mean, the guy was an animal. Really? His cardio was just insane. He was super strong. I mean, you never know. You know, you look at Serena Williams. Yeah, she's brilliant. You know, her body type is big. She's one of the best female tennis player. Yeah, we've seen. Absolutely. And I think, you know, you've got on London Marathon Day and see the same thing. Yeah, that's true. There are lots of people whose BMI would be categorized as overweight or even obese, but, you know, they can run over 27 miles, which I think is pretty impressive. No, it's true. But there's still this thing around obesity and diabetes are the biggest costs to the NHS. And we do have a huge problem. Absolutely. And there's... No, no, so it's thinking about how to encourage people to eat better, to reduce their weight if it's a weight problem. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, there's no denying that it's a problem. And I think it's not being naive in saying it's not a problem and we shouldn't address it. Because, of course, it is. It's a big burden on our NHS and along with many other health issues, I'm sure. But it is something that, of course, needs to be addressed. But we're not so great at preventative measures, I think, with our healthcare or the way we view health in our Western world. And I think we very much look at a plaster solution afterwards. And people get obese for a variety of different reasons, which perhaps we'll talk about. But we then kind of look at them, point the finger and go, well, you're obese, you're costing our healthcare system money and you need to lose weight. But we know that way of attacking the problem doesn't help. It actually often makes it worse. So there's a really interesting study that looked at kind of weight loss promoting campaigns versus kind of weight neutral campaigns around health. And they expose them to people of kind of in different weight categories. What would be like a weight neutral? So something that doesn't... So when we think about health, we want to try and promote people moving their bodies and all your intuitive eating, things like that. Rather than going, you know, you're overweight, you need to lose weight, it's dangerous, you know, it leads to cancer, things like that, which I'm sure will come on to. And so they found the results from the study that actually the campaigns that focused and promoted weight loss specifically were either ineffective or had a detrimental effect to people's weight when they followed it over a period of time. And you can imagine the same thing if someone kind of points their finger at you and calls you a name. It doesn't really encourage you to change or to try and live a healthier lifestyle. No, but you've got, there's a few different areas. I think like we can talk about the kids and education and stuff, which is, I think like the really thing you need to tackle. But then people who are currently overweight and obese, we need to think about how they can start re-engineering their diets and their lives to start to become a healthy. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I can imagine it's like a massive, massive hurdle to get over mentally just to. It's very hard, and we're asking them to do that in an environment that doesn't really support that way of living. And we're often asking them to rely on kind of willpower alone to do that. You know, you walk into any shop now and you're surrounded by foods that are laden with sugar or saturated fat or things that were supposedly not supposed to eat. And it's very difficult to resist that. We weren't designed as humans to live in this culture of abundance, of having so much of everything all of the time available to us. We were, you know, we evolved to be hunter-gatherers to hunt for our food and to not have it so readily available, and that's causing problems. But I actually think we need to go way back beyond, you know, not to say there's, of course, these people can't lose weight and become healthier, but actually it's looking at going back to what's causing that. And I think that's, again, where we tend to look at very plaster solutions or surface solutions when actually looking at the root cause of the problem. And we know through various very long-scale studies now that people who've experienced childhood trauma or neglect are much more likely to become obese in later life than those who haven't. So there are emotional reasons around why people are becoming obese. It isn't because they're lazy or lack willpower, which is often the perception, I think, of our society and which is so damaging. And what causes that stigma. So it can't be a coincidence that if you experience trauma, actually it changes the wiring of your brain. Experiencing trauma, particularly in early life, so between the ages of one to four where your brain is developing. If you experience neglect or trauma in any way or what they call ACE, adverse childhood experiences, your likelihood of becoming obese in adult life and also experiencing mental health illnesses jumps up significantly. Interesting. But then also we have these bad choices you can make because back in the day when we were hunter-gatherers, if you had that mental illness or traumatic experience when you were younger, you wouldn't have had the opportunity to go and eat processed carbs and sugars. But we know that something doesn't look to be changing any time soon. But I remember at school, I mean, luckily I played a lot of sport, but the food choices were awful. Like there used to be pizza, burgers, chips. I never got any education on what health eating is. Yeah, that's important too. I think that that's been lacking in our education system generally. And we went through the kind of fast food culture, the microwave ready meals. When I was growing up, ready meals were quite trendy because it meant you had a microwave which meant you were more affluent. So we didn't have the same level of awareness. And I think it's improving, but I think it just will take a lot more than just education around what health eating is or means for people. I'd also find that lower socioeconomic areas tend to eat worse. Yes, absolutely. And also the food's cheaper. Yes, absolutely. It's not as healthy. I mean, health eating's quite expensive. It can be really expensive. It's not accessible to everyone. And again, I think that's something to recognize in that struggling financially. If you do what is easiest and what is cheapest and what is accessible to you, it's not always, not everyone can unfortunately shop in Whole Foods or Planet Organic. And that's again something to recognize. And then there's loads of, I mean, we live in London. There's loads of the little fruit and veg shops along the street where it's like a pound for a bag of fresh vegetables or fruit. So you can do it. Oh, totally, of course. I think, yeah, absolutely. It's a choice that people still make at the end of the day. But I think the reason why those choices are made are complex. Definitely, yeah. And not something that I think is that easily fixed. And certainly we're not able to fix it by the kind of campaigns that we're seeing now with cancer research. Yeah, let's talk about that, yeah. Yeah, highly criticized as well. So what was the campaign? So the campaign was about obesity. And it basically, they launched a campaign to say obesity is also a cause of cancer. But it's in a style of a kind of cigarette packet to say we've obviously focused for so long at how smoking can cause cancer or many cancers. But did you know that also obesity causes cancer? And there has been a big uproar against that as people feel it is fat-shaming. It does the opposite of what it's intended to do. And again, that study I referenced, there have been other similar ones to show that actually that kind of advertising or health promotion doesn't work. So why are we still doing it? And we need to actually, and again, particularly when we know there is a very significant link between trauma and as a child in obesity, I think it's actually just quite cruel to be pointing the finger in that way. And I think it puts all the emphasis on the individual of saying, you know, you're obese, you need to lose weight because you could get cancer. It doesn't look at the system as a whole that I think is broken in our society, which has an influence. But then are you saying that everyone who's obese has had some trauma? No, of course not. Of course not everybody. But it's very common. It is very common. And we know there's also a bi-directional link between depression and obesity as well. If you're depressed, you're more likely to become obese and vice versa. So there are lots of different things at play and it's often a much deeper psychology than we ever acknowledge. And I think that's the problem. Traumas, obviously there is one significant link there that I do think needs to be recognized. But of course that won't be the only problem or the only influence I think in that world. Because I guess the tobacco campaigns worked. Because I think a lot less people are smoking. That's true. But I think for a long time, smoking was very trendy, wasn't it? You see these kind of sleek women in the 50s adverts holding a cigarette. Like a jazz club. Yeah. Whereas I don't think we've ever felt that way about obesity. No, no. For us, we have a very narrow view of what looks good, particularly as a woman I think. It's a very slim figure or a slim and curvy figure. It isn't what we think of as obesity as something that is desirable or we want to move towards. It's true. But I mentioned actually, I watched it up to the picture of the Colombian mannequin and seeing Colombia. There's my colleagues there at the moment. It's big boobs in a big bum. Yes. It's very, very curvy. Yeah, really, really curvy. And never waist, yeah. And it's just quite interesting. And also, I think back in the day, King Henry VIII time, it was really fashionable for women to be big. That's true. And in certain cultures, I think it still is. I remember once we had a lovely guy who was from, I can't remember where in Africa, but he was a security guard in our building. And I walked in after having a break over Easter. He yelled across the foyer, oh, Melissa, you've put on weight. But it was a really positive thing. Like it was a compliment. And I was like, okay, that's what 10 packs of mini-exercise would do for you. But in their culture, he didn't see that as an insult or as something negative. But he saw often it's viewed as having abundance, having wealth, things like that. And they see it more as healthy than the opposite. So definitely culturally, it varies, I think. Yeah, yeah, it's quite interesting. But just to, because I mean, I think it's agreed that we do have an obesity problem. Yes. And it's just thinking about how to tackle it in the right way, which is quite interesting. And I think it has to be a very long-term strategy. And I think that's something that tends to be lacking in our thinking overall with health is kind of, how can we look at this over the next 50 years, not just the next five to, how can we really change it? But another really interesting initiative I've read about was in one of the Scandinavian countries. They introduced an initiative where they had nurses call in on new mothers periodically over the first couple of years of them raising their first child. And they measured the effects of this. So it was a very long-term study as when those children grew up and went on to find work or whatever that might be. And they measured that the families that had the visits from the nurses, their children were less likely to end up in prison and more likely to hold down long-term work than the families that didn't have the visits from a similar social economic background. So it starts right at that early stage I think as well. I think it's not just about educating, it's often about support as well for new mothers who don't feel equipped to deal with that single mothers as well who don't necessarily have the social support that they need. I think it's going back that early and saying what can we do at that stage to make sure that people are well-educated around this kind of thing but also have the right social support and not subject to abuse or neglect. And teach mothers how to parent in a way that it's not something we get taught. And I can't say from a personal experience but I know many people have found it very challenging becoming a new mother and trying to do all of the right things but not knowing if you're getting it all right. And particularly if your own upbringing wasn't great or your own model of parenting wasn't great that's obviously going to influence how you parent yourself. True, but I think it's not just the mum. I think it's like the whole family unit or friendship unit or social circle. Yes, absolutely. Because you do find, you know, let's say that the parents could be healthy, the grandparents might not be. You go to your friend's house and I mean, for me I think it's about educating them at school. Because your parents could be unhealthy too. Yeah, but I mean, so my kids' school, they're doing quite a lot on healthy eating. And then so that the school meals are like relatively healthy. Yeah. But they have like a different things on the menu, chicken, fish, stuff like vegetables. So I think if you do, cause you know. That's really important I think. And that's something that's certainly been lacking for a long time in schools. And I think that is so essential. The study I referenced was less, I think it was less kind of healthy eating focus but more about this is how not to neglect your child. This is how to create a bond with your child. This is what your child needs at this stage of life. And you know, things that might sound quite simple to us but I'm sure aren't. And actually people need support on that. And of course not just mothers also fathers too. This particular study was done quite a while ago in order to follow those, the families into their adult life. And so it focused on mothers but now obviously father inclusive. But it's just helping out people who perhaps didn't have the best start or parenting themselves. Helping them become more proficient parents so that abuse and neglect doesn't happen and better education overall, better care for those kids. Definitely. The other thing is, so there's three kind of pillars to like good health. It's like nutrition, exercise and sleep. And we always forget about the sleep. Sleep is so important. Like just really quality sleep. Yeah, there's again a big link between being under slept and being overweight. Because if you're tired then you're like, maybe you'll snack more. Absolutely. When you're tired you go into survival mode which just means like your instincts, your natural human instincts of going for food, your willpower's lower generally. Yet you feel more tired so you're more likely to go for a kind of sugary snack to give you a short energy boost. Yeah, sleep's a big one. You need good solid sleep. They say like eight hours but also it doesn't have to be in chunks. It's in one big chunk. So you could be in a get a little nap, a lunch time. Yeah, I've read that when they've studied like humans a long, long time ago, again, hunt together a time that we slept in two phases. So we did have essentially an afternoon nap which sounds great to me. You're always accessible, but if you can, amazing. No, it's important. I'm actually doing a podcast with a guy called Nick Littlehaels. He's a sports sleep coach. I know of him. He wrote a great book about sleep. Yeah, it's the R90 technique. It's like 90 minute sleep cycle. So I can't remember what the actual terminology is but humans aren't born to sleep in one chunk. And when you're a parent, everyone gets so caught up in they've got to sleep through the night. Yeah, which often doesn't happen, right? It doesn't happen, yeah. And then you rush to put them into their own room really quickly because that's kind of what you do. Certainly in like Western society. And yeah, then you get all these sleep problems. And then you get like, I mean, with bunny, like, but you have all these bunnies and like cuddly toys. And the kids just get addicted to like sucking their bunnies because the parents just... Comfort blanket. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's really interesting. But if you get all of that right, then, you know, the mental health issues I think are tackled. You feel more comfortable because kids just need good love, attention, care. Yeah, absolutely. The only problem is if you didn't have that in early life, you might need a stronger intervention to feel mentally and physically healthy as well. And that might mean talking therapy for some. It might mean medication for some. But absolutely, I mean, if you can get those three things right, you've got a pretty good chance of feeling good health. So I think for me, like the schools are just vital in doing that. Because if your parents don't know anything about that stuff, you've got to get it from school. But then you get into these things. So the cancer research campaigns. Because the other thing is we do need to educate people. Yeah, we do. Absolutely. But maybe people don't know that obesity causes cancer. They don't necessarily link it in their mind. Maybe. And so, you know, I guess people take these adverts in different ways. And so I'm definitely for education. Yeah, so am I. I think it's just being careful how we do that and being mindful of the language that is used in particular. I think for most people, if they are overweight or obese, they will likely know that that's not great for their health. I'm sure in a variety of different ways. I don't think it comes from ignorance personally. And I might be wrong. And there might be some cases, of course, where that awareness isn't there. I think the way in which we educate and communicate. And I think our health education in schools, like you said, needs to be much, much better. We learn about so many different things that we never go on to use in everyday life, but actually looking after yourself and your health is so crucial. Why is it not taught in schools in a more comprehensive way? But also an inclusive way, which is important. I remember going back to tobacco. It started out, I think, a little softly-softly tobacco because of cancer. Suddenly then you have the photos of your heart with the black and all the tar and everything. Absolutely, yeah. So I think it's... That has, you're right. And it has reduced smoking. Well, almost completely, yeah. I don't think my kids will smoke. It's not cool to smoke anymore. It's often seen as quite anti-social. Anti-social. You even get people in the pubs on Saturday night. I overhead. There was a table next to a smoking and the table behind them at the top of their voices were like, oh, hate, this is disgusting. How can people smoke? And it was like really shaming them. Yeah, I think that does happen a lot. And I think there's definitely, from my perspective, definitely less people I know that smoke now than used to. So that is definitely reducing. And I'm sure, again, awareness around that has helped, of course, people know it's... But there are also a lot of people still smoking, despite knowing, yes, there are links to cancer, other illnesses as well, generally bad for your health. But it's not always as easy as saying to someone, don't do that because it's bad for your health. Okay, yeah, I'll stop eating, I'll stop smoking. Unfortunately, it's not always that straightforward. No, definitely, definitely. But then something needs to happen. So I think with the school stuff, that's important. I think the mass advertising, which I guess this is important, maybe it's just thinking about how to do it in the right way. In the right way, absolutely. I mean, using language that doesn't feel it's kind of finger pointing at one demographic or group of individuals, which is gonna make them feel more kind of shame or stigma around their current state, which they probably already feel. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And you can imagine, probably already feel a bit outcast from society. So I think that just worsens that feeling and doesn't necessarily help find a solution. Yeah, and maybe the government needs to do something because I mean, with let's say the plastic bag stuff, I mean, the minute they started to charge for plastic bags, I think they've done a sugar tax. Yes, they have done a sugar tax, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. I think the government, we need to understand that ultimately all of this stems from people trying to sell us stuff. It's all of the advertising around it as well, which draws us in. And there is, I think a lot of different things at play, but I think the government could be doing more. And I think particularly looking at early interventions. And the problem often comes down to resource and cash, but that study I mentioned with the home visits for the first time mothers, they also tracked the saving of that and they looked at how much it cost to do that. But then what they saved through, obviously people not being in prison and people contributing to the economy in a positive way, it was quite a big saving overall, but obviously you've got to put the funds in up front, which is what I think we struggle with. No, that's true. We look at fixing rather than, okay, what can we do to prevent people getting to that stage in the first place? No, it's true. Whoever gets into power, Boris or whoever it might be, they need to put a long term strategy in place. Because I think what we're currently doing clearly isn't working in many ways. And that we know that obesity levels have gone up. So we know that the current way of trying to tackle that of saying, look, obesity is bad for your health in all of these different ways. It's clearly not working very well. So it's looking at, yeah, what else can we do there that it's gonna have a long-term effect and trying to get a better understanding of the psychology behind it and the root causes, which I think is where any kind of intervention should start. True, true. But then these last two things, so the Nike Mannequin and the Cancer Research Campaign, it feels like these are the two big things that hasn't been much prior. You see a lot of like, it's all the social media. Like social media promotes super thin bodies, really muscular, nobody fat, like, you know, bursting with muscle. And then, but apart from that, I mean, it feels like it's just now starting to kick off with these. Yeah, there have been some campaigns, I think, that have been run both by the NHS and we know also that lots of kind of health, not just health food, but when you think about companies, even like Weight Watchers and Slimming World, all of these diets and based companies, that again, it's a big money making industry, diet, the whole diet industry. And that's very much been pushed for a long time. There was the, do you remember the Bikini body ready advert in the tube that people also kicked off about that, which I can't remember, one or two years ago now, people saying, well, I am bikini body ready. You know, there was this idea that again, there's a way you have to look like that, if you're gonna wear a bikini, otherwise it's not acceptable. And I think all of that side of things have been pushed for a while and I think diet culture has been very prevalent. And a big part of, I think, again, what shapes our view around what health is in that, it has to come in a very slim package with zero body fat, which isn't realistic. I'd like to move away from diet to healthy lifestyle, healthy mind, healthy body. And again, I think the trend is going that way of looking at a kind of more holistic view of things like intuitive eating, of trying to listen to your body and what it needs and wants, rather than, I'm on another diet. Which I think, again, was quite fashionable in the 80s, where, I think, when Weight Watchers became quite big. And I think, hopefully, things are slowly moving away from that, but it's still a very big industry. And you think of diets like the Atkins, the Duke, and have these celebrity endorsements, which, again, imply that that's the way that we should be living. It's a minefield. Yeah, it is. Because if you Google healthy eating, there's so much stuff that comes up. Oh, God, you'll be there all day. Yeah, it's very confusing. And we get so many conflicting messages and not just the mainstream media now, but things like social media. So you've got the health and fitness bloggers. Many of you aren't really qualified to be talking about nutrition, but still offering advice on it. I think that makes it very confusing for people in terms of what actually is healthy eating anymore. Yeah, true. I try and use the motto. If it has a label at the back of the pack, it's probably not healthy. And you just want to go for fresh stuff, fresh vegetables, fruit. Absolutely. The closer it looks to something that grew out the ground or is natural. And then, yeah, absolutely. I try and live by that rule too, mostly. Yeah, awesome. Great to speak to you on that. You too. Very interesting subject. So I'm sure we could talk for hours. No, definitely, definitely. Let's circle back and see, like, how it's developed and what's been going on. Absolutely. Yeah, that would be very interesting to see. Awesome. Thank you for having me. Pleasure. See ya. Hey, folks. Thanks for listening. Don't forget to subscribe in all the usual places.