 The word street art in graffiti have become in a sense so bastardized and used over and over again in a lot of ways they shouldn't be used with artists that shouldn't be used with not necessarily because people are stupid just because there's not a ton of education out there and it's such a fast-paced fast-moving art form that a lot of people think they can just jump on the bandwagon. Roger Gaspin has been a key influence in the graffiti art movement since the 1990s. After his groundbreaking 2011 show Art in the Streets, he has become the foremost expert on the street art movement. I sat down with him at his new show in downtown LA, Beyond the Streets, to discuss the current state of graffiti, vandalism, street art, and where they intersect in today's culture. I'm Elan Morgan-Gessner, founder of the brand's Fat Farm, Shutt's Skateboards, and Zoo York, and I'm the style editor here at Uproxx. Tell me where you were born and how you got interested in all of this stuff. I was born in Canton, Ohio. Canton, Ohio? Home of the football hall of fame. Oh, really? I left after third grade. I can't tell you that much about it. I ended up in Bethesda, Maryland, where I grew up. I was there until 2004 when I ended up in LA. Starting in the early 90s, I was always coming out to Los Angeles to visit friends, do things, paint on things, be a bad kid. Start up on getting up and using these cans. And then early when I was working on magazines and other projects, I just kept coming and kept coming. And by 2004, shit, it was time to live here. How did you, in Bethesda, Maryland, become aware of like graffiti and then street art and counterculture in general? Well, I grew up in Bethesda, Maryland, but it was a couple miles from Washington, DC. Okay. So we were always going downtown, and DC had a really thriving punk rock scene, hardcore scene, graffiti scene. There were so many things right there. Even the tower records we would go to in Rockville, Maryland had the biggest newsstand of all the tower records in the country. So you could get every zine, any kind of bits and pieces of oddball information you ever wanted. I spent a lot of time in tower records, and I spent a lot of time running around DC as a kid doing a lot of bad things you shouldn't do. Okay, like what? Writing graffiti, stealing stuff, getting in all kinds of other trouble, you know, going to concerts. Yeah. How did you start to transition into being such a spokesperson for this world? Like what did you start to make in zines or what did you do? I never intended to be a spokesperson, a historian, anything. I was just interested in my city's history, who was doing things before I was and trying to dig that up. Early on, I started trading photos of 20 photos of what was happening in my city with someone in Chicago, someone in New York, Los Angeles. So it was just a network and then that person would turn you on to someone in another city so the network would keep growing. So as I would start traveling in my mid-teens to a lot of these other cities, I was always just curious about the city's history, digging up old photos, collecting magazines, just collecting junk to learn more. I started a magazine when I was 19, called While You Were Sleeping, totally accidentally. How did that come about? I had a lot of friends that were doing graffiti magazines at the time. I had a good network of people around the country that I was getting photos from. I had a good network of stores I knew around the country because I was selling caps, the little tips that go in Kansas spray paint. And I had a bunch of friends that were graphic designers. So I figured, ah, I have a whole bunch of stuff other people haven't seen. I might as well jump in this game. So the first thing we did was 24-page, 3,000 copies. Tower Records was our main distributor and then all these other little stores around the country then just kept spinning and spinning. You'd add music, you'd add a failed child actor, you'd add a porn star, you'd add how to cheat in school, all the things you know, teenage boys want to read about. And that quickly became my college education, from learning about advertising, to learning about distribution, to design, to artist relations, on and on. And one thing led to another and here I am. This is something that I've struggled with my whole life and I think you share this as well, which is that, you know, when I was a kid, I was getting arrested constantly for writing graffiti or skateboarding, you know? So in the back of my angry little 13-year-old mind, I was always like, if it's the last thing I'm gonna do, I'm gonna do everything I can to make it okay to be skateboarder, okay to be a graffiti writer, you know? Because I shouldn't be getting, I'm not dealing drugs, you know? A special graffiti squad consisting of a side, a dozen men who are particularly knowledgeable in the workings of the graffitias and the identification of them. I think you as well is like, graffiti is great and I'm gonna put all my effort into, you know, putting this culture out to more and more people. But now here we are and, you know, there's PSAs on TV of like, I can kick flip the stairs, I can go to college, I can finish this graffiti mural, I'm going to college, you know? Turning a 20-foot wall into a canvas takes vision. So we're getting into college. I've got what it takes. So do you. And it's almost like, you know, I feel culpable for in some ways taking away the thing that I love, like the vandal aspect of it or the against the counterculture in this. Now it is common culture, you know? You could turn that artist's work into something profitable, don't you think? Okay, good luck to you. I was so mad about seven, eight years ago at the word street art and all these people doing murals that had never picked up a can of spray paint before, never cut a stencil, never done anything illegal on the street and all of a sudden they're getting all this credit to street artists. All of a sudden they're showing in galleries, they're making t-shirts. I don't even need to name names, there's so many of them. Or people that did six months on the street on Melrose and Beverly because it's high-trafficked, now they're street artists, now they're popular. And you could name that for any city. And I was so fucking bitter about it. Am I allowed to swear? Yeah. Great. Okay. Good. I was so fucking bitter about it. And you could go in Michaels, you could go in Blick, and you could get a stencil kit, you could do all these things. And the last few years I've come around a lot. And I realize it's not necessarily that these people are bad or the general public or the smart people are bad, there's just not education on it. And graffiti and street art have become so big, it's just an art form, and people are using the tools. And I applaud more and more public art and I in a sense now applaud the culture's gotten so much bigger because it allows things like beyond the streets to happen and be successful, you just have to be cautious about how you do things and make sure there's enough of an educational aspect to it so people can leave knowing something or they can look something up six months later when it's a memory that pops up on their Facebook. Yeah. And make sure that information is out there for them to pick up on. So you're in support of these kids, the kids on the come up who are doing it traditional ways and having their little, you know, graffiti beefs and Absolutely. It's the best way to learn. Yeah. Keep doing it. Yeah. Well, when did you do your first kind of exhibition or show? How did that come about? I did a book called Free Agents, which was a history of Washington, D.C. Graffiti in 2000. It's a mess. It started off as an eight page article and while you were sleeping and I kept getting more and more information. I was like, well, I guess I have a book here. Right. So that became my first book and I figured, well, we might as well do a show of all this art. I think it was 2000. We did a show in D.C. down in Georgetown at a place called Museumic Temporary, which was a nice little gallery. And that was the first show I did. It, through that show, a cool just go to MP, it's got placed in the Corcoran. Richard Coleman kicked off his art career. So many other things that great happened out of that that none of us knew at the time how important it was or what it was. But going back to that show and that opportunity that was given to me by Clark Fox, who was a great artist in his self, who ran the gallery, really is responsible for so many things I have gone on to do. We did a few other shows at that gallery, which was another show with Richard Coleman, Dalek, who was just getting kicked off at the time, Ron English and Shepherd Ferry. And we started making books that were much better than the free agents book. And some film projects. Cool Disco Dan. Yep. The Legend of Cold Disco Dan is a film project. Some more museum shows. Some more stuff. You did a Hello Kitty show? Yeah, we did a Hello Kitty show in New York. Right. Yeah. Eight years ago. How did that happen? Like, is that Sanrio? Yeah, we worked with Sanrio. Would they contract you to go get the artist? We've done agency work and brand work for Sanrio for years, creating really cool art experience. Yeah, I'm a huge Hello Kitty fan. You can't tell. We did the convention here at, that was at Mocha Geffen, that 30,000 people came through in a weekend or something like that. 30,000 people. That was ridiculous. And now tell us about the precursor to this, the predecessor. So I did a show Art in the Streets in 2011 at Mocha, which was the biggest show Mocha had ever had. 220,000 people came through. Yeah, it was insane. I did this show along with Aaron Rose and Jeffrey Deitch, who I owe a lot to for kicking me in the butt and making me think a lot of different ways, which I'm grateful for. Right. And since that show, the word street art in graffiti have become in a sense so bastardized and used over and over again in a lot of ways they shouldn't be used, with artists that shouldn't be used with, not necessarily because people are stupid, just because there's not a ton of education out there. And it's such a fast-paced, fast-moving art form that a lot of people think they can just jump on the bandwagon. So I said, you know what, there really needs to be another big, in-your-face show where we can educate people from the general public to the who's who of people, of who so many of the artists are that really came out of graffiti, really came out of street art and went on to have great careers and still are having great careers in galleries and in museums. Beyond the Streets is not a historical show. It's not a who's who of who did graffiti in Los Angeles. It really is a collection of some of the best people to come out of the streets and into the museums, into the galleries and have true studio practices. Tell us about this, this risk to this? Risk was one of the first Los Angeles graffiti artists and so much of his work is usually letter-based, bold, bright, more in-your-face, neon. For this show he wanted to do a play on Damien Hurst where Damien Hurst shark is the predator in the ocean, the cop car is the predator in the hood. So we got him this old cop car and he spent about three months getting it cut apart with all sorts of different blades and things of that nature and it's really a beautiful piece to just stand there and stare at. He even used to see how the hell a car works. For sure, yeah. Along with the show something interesting is every 10th exhibit or so we did throw in something more historical to remind people where the hell they are or something more ephemeral. Also all the artists are in the show because they want to be in the show. There's no secondary market loans or loans from collectors. About 80% of this work is made for the show also. What was the thinking behind the mini versions of Lee Quinona's Handball Wall and then the Pavilion in Venice Beach? It's disturbing because those are two locations that I grew up around and in and they've gone from my life and then I just walked in and then boom, there they are, approximately, the memory of it. It's so weird to me. So how did you get that idea? The Handball Court is pretty much true to size. It just has a fence around it, so. Well, yeah, but it's also just it's not in New York. That's why I'm like. And we're not in New York. But the Lee Handball Courts are so important to the culture. It's not really graffiti. It's not really street art. It is graffiti and it's done by a graffiti artist. But I never saw them in person. But everything I know about them and from talking to so many people, they were almost just destination locations for people to hang out at. See, you know, memories, play handball against. It wasn't necessarily. Oh, let's go look at that Lee graffiti. It's these just incredible handball courts. And I asked him if he would consider doing it again. And brilliant. He said, yes, under one condition that people can play it. So people have been out here playing it. Good. Which is great. And then, you know, Adidas skateboarding is one of our partners for the show and they've been incredible to work with. And we really wanted to bring a skate element as skateboarding and graffiti. Do have a lot of crossovers. I don't need to tell you. You could tell me more than I could probably know about that. Two of my favorite things. So with that being said, it was really important to really hone in on what a really cool Los Angeles thing was that had to do with graffiti and had to do a skateboarding. And it was sort of an instant answer on everyone's. The pavilion. Brain is the pavilion. Well, it's not really there anymore. So let's see how much space we have and let's do a rendition of it. It's not exact size. Of course not. But it's true to form. It's in proportion. People love it. We had all the original writers come out and paint it. Right. And the original skaters came and skated it. So many of the skaters are coming out and nobody's saying, oh, but this is this. This is that. Everyone's just loving it for what it was. Understanding that we're treating it as art. We're not treating it as a graffiti spot. We're not treating it as a skate spot. We're treating it as a really important, significant cultural location and putting it in the context of the show. So a lot of people are first like, oh, you did the pavilion? Huh? Like, I don't want. And then they get here and they're like, okay, I get it. And they understand the context it's in. And it's a thumbs up. And it was. Do you people who are obviously, there are people who are coming here who are just wanting to look at art and don't understand the culture? Do they understand? Does it have any meaning to them? Or they walk into the backyard and are like, what's this graffiti den? And then walk out? I talk to a lot of people and a lot of them get it. A lot of them don't. Right. But most of them stand on the stage and take a picture. Right. Sit on the bench. Maybe scribble their name somewhere. Sure. So whether they get it or not, you know, I'm sure a lot of people that were the original pavilion walking through it, whether they were tourists or locals, didn't even understand the full significance of it. True. But they're still taking a photo. They're still getting it. Then I think a lot of them are getting it when they read the plaque on the wall. It's some of the most fun things I've seen. It's just walking around the blocks here. Seeing how crushed all the buildings have gotten. Just the stickers on the stop sign. Seeing that makes me feel good. Yeah, I was wondering, as I was parking my car, driving around, I was like, is this part of the show? No. It's just other graffiti writers have been attracted to this and they want to have their name out there. Yes. Really fascinating. Have you gotten a criticism from your neighbors? They don't like, the neighbors don't like us. No. The building doesn't like us. No. The city doesn't like us. Well, maybe graffiti still, the soul of graffiti still exists. Pissing off the man. Graffiti is still very active and very real in Los Angeles. And mostly throughout the world. A lot of it gets buffed a lot quicker, but it's still real. There's always going to be the next group of 14, 15, 16-year-old kids. They don't give a shit. And if they get arrested, it doesn't really matter.