 Let's move on now to council initiated discussion. I think you've all been through this experience before this is where we basically turn the microphone over to you. We ask for suggestions of reports that you would like to hear future council meetings. These can be reports from other institute directors like we heard earlier this morning from this afternoon from Dr. Orchic, or it could be reports on certain of our research programs. We also regard you as representatives of the scientific community. And if you're aware of problems or troubles that are out there brewing in the extramural, extramural world, we would be happy to hear about those or any other concerns that you have. So, what are your thoughts. I'd also point out that we do keep a list of things we've heard previously in some cases, we've decided to the timing might not be exactly right and we maybe sort of aiming to schedule that in at a future council meeting. Even that nobody's saying anything. The one thing I'm seeing a lot of people complaining about, and we brought this up before is the, the overburden from bureaucracy and changing bureaucracies like changing the biosketch things like that. But we have a meeting already set up to discuss that further, but it just just sharing with you that I see it more and more people complaining about that. But there are a lot of recording requirements in the biosketch is really, it has been changed and multiple times. Go ahead, Kyle. Yes, I think Eric brought the issue of inflation and I want to kind of note that sort of erosion of the purchasing power of NIH grants and the standard modular and so this is time to, well, this is a, of course, NIH white discussion to kind of revisit those limits. Specifically what limits are you talking about Helen. So much limits but just kind of the standard sort of budget. Are you asking for an increase in the modular budget above the current level. Okay, yes, and also perhaps then the cap at which basically sort of what he's get second or review for example by council right because basically that that amount would just be a certain amount personal powers actually much less when it used to be. Kyle. In light of the earlier presentation might be helpful and as we're thinking about the NASA some group thinking about race ethnicity and ancestry. I would love to hear an update on any work about changing the CMS categories and whether that's, you know, on the horizon is there active work going on in that domain just sort of updating those categories and to better reflect contemporary understanding of race and ethnicity and then, you know, eventually concepts like ancestry and LGBTQ status those types of groupings. Yeah, one of the things that strikes me is, you know, NHGRI is supporting lots of new approaches either from the standpoint of technology and moving into new areas multi omics also analytics and methods for analysis of complicated data. And it seems that one of the limitations that comes up often is a lack of sort of scientific community support of how to actually understand what's being done. And what are the sources of data how to to work with it is almost community engagement. And, and so, you know, in addition to expecting a lot of the projects to have community engagement as part of their, their action items. So what NHGRI is doing overall, in terms of holding workshops or something. Is that where it's investigator initiated opportunities that being gets reviewed or is it something that NHGRI can think about this is an area of importance and we need to get people together and put something so it can be, you know, connected when the strategic plan was being developed, you know, taking a show on the road and going to different places. Steve, can you put a little more detail on what's the expertise, we'd be bringing to a gathering like that. Yeah, I mean, you have to realize this just came to me. So it's not very well formed but I was thinking, you know, for example, if there were some key people that are experts and an analysis of various data and tools, you know, as as Raph was, was saying, you know, we could have those people commit to maybe putting on, you know, four or five show entails over a period of a year at different sites around the country. And in some ways, in the immunology field, they have these types of group of people investigators who basically hold workshops in different places at different times. I think it's something that would be good for the scientific community be great for trainees to attend, as well as young investigators and, you know, get an opportunity for NHGRI to get out in front. Yeah, I mean, I, it's an interesting idea, Steve, I've had similar thoughts and talking to people, two things come to mind, sort of one, one in the rear view mirror. I remember some of the earliest days when NCBI was just setting up a lot of their stuff and data was just flown into GenBank, you know, they would sit there like an ASHG meeting and they'd have a booth and they would, you know, tell you, they'd sit with you and say, click that they would do road shows all the time. Of course now it's so much more complicated. I still think they'd go to boots and they train, but it's, you're looking for something much more complex. But I could, I see what you're saying. And the second thought I have and I don't know if anybody on my staff want to chime in further is my understanding where there's a place where that kind of thing might start happening is especially with all of us data. I think all of us is planning some things and I, you know, again, you made the point we should lead and that's fine we can do it with them in some ways but, but I think that you're right that there are these massive data sets which we brag about that are impenetrable to some people. And could we just get the activation, you know, barrier down a little bit I think Carolyn just raised her hand and maybe she's going to make some comments about the all of us workbench. And I apologize for my backlitness. Yes, I think that the all of us workbench is definitely thinking about road shows, and then building on the discussion that Marilyn, Dr Richie led earlier today I also think there's, there's opportunities with anvil and some of the outreach that we're doing there, not just to introduce people to the workbench is which I know what you're talking about. It's not just like how do you get this environment but how do you actually take on these new data sets and new approaches and I think for both all of us and anvil and other places I think it needs to be moving past just how do you get in and to these places but how do you really have meaningful use cases that demonstrate to people the types of research and the types of activities they could do in those settings and therefore to your point also with their own data. And so I think there's a really strong opportunity for us to sort of get a two for out of some of these things we've been thinking about doing to sort of bring in what you're talking about which is really that like, not just how do I get into these spaces but how do I really think about all of the subtleties and important issues, getting an introduction to that for the data I don't know if that touches on what you were getting at Steve and I think it's something we could think about coming back to council or thinking about working with a group of council to your point about how to move some of this forward. Our data science working group of council would be a good place to sort of bring that into some further discussion. I think that's helpful. And Steve has you think about it more deeply if you have other thoughts of ways of structure this organizing and finding it, you know, give us a give a shout. Sure. I'll go ahead. I really like Steve's idea but I wonder if having a traveling show would be too limiting with regard to how many people could be exposed. Has there been consideration of creating a curriculum and teaching tools for people to use locally to expose their students to these resources and how they're used. You would think there's probably bits and pieces of lots of graduate programs out there where they have that. And how are you suggesting that we would try to fund something that would be readily transferable every to really fund a curriculum development. Yes, that's exactly what I'm suggesting. I'm wondering if Valentina or sure Joe want to get on and talk a little bit about the concept that we have this relates to the concept you presented in the in September sure Joe. Sure, can you hear me fine. Yes. Yeah, wonderful. Well, what we have in mind is a series of two funding announcements that were discussed at the council in September. One of those is for a cooperative agreement, a hub, as we call it an educational hub that will reach out and connect with institutions across the country, many of which will be serving students from under represented institutions and introduce them to the concepts of data science, big data cloud computing sort of doing some foundational activity in helping students and faculty across the country getting ready for genomic data science in a cloud environment. Exactly after that we have a second funding announcement lined up which is an R 25, which will be for faculty members at these institutions to actually apply to create educational content, classroom courses, online labs cloud based analysis labs, where we can learn how to use the cloud and how to do genomic analysis on the cloud. And together, you know the hub and the sites that those other funding, the smaller institutions would work with the hub. And we envision that becoming the start of a wonderful network of institutions that will be educational, you know, powerhouses for teaching the students of the future how to do data science and genomics in the cloud. Is it really geared for institutions that are catering to underrepresented minority populations, or this would be generalizable to any, for example, graduate program. The hub hell is a doctor did say is not so much targeted to minority students that we, we hope that lots of students and faculty from minority serving institutions will engage, but the hub does have a broad mandate, and I'm, I'm sort of looking at the hub as being a place that will create resources that could be used by institutions across the board. The sites the second funding announcement that I mentioned is at least planned to be something where minorities serving institutions would be the preferred applicants. I think the point you're making, I think the point you're implying which is probably correct is that if, if we can make this sort of not require people getting on airplanes flying somewhere it levels the playing field makes it more widely available more likely to not have disparities. And so what should probably be emphasized is readily disseminatable electronically through zoom through virtual things as opposed to road shows and maybe we need some internet road show is what we should call it, as opposed to a true road show, because it wouldn't, it wouldn't be great for us to set up a road show with the Hopkins and Stanford and UVA I mean that because that's not what you know it'd be nice to have those folks get access to whatever we develop, but it'd be better if everybody got access so I think I hear the points being made and I don't I think in today's world. You don't need you don't need the physical road shows just need the virtual ones. And this would add to that recognizing we're sort of in this admin advantage, advantageous situation of being an open council and people can reach out to me if you Google Carolyn Hutter, you'll find my email right away. And I'll connect to the right people I'm not actually the right person for this to think about the partnerships and the other places that we can work with we have internally. And as some of my colleagues have been talking about we have, for example, our recent technology development coordinating center which is having some opportunities for outreach and extending the SEGs programs often have opportunities to think about outreach and to think about how we're sort of leveraging and collecting some of that information, but also you know as hg as an example of a partnership organization that we could do some of these things but if people have ideas of other groups we should working with or Steve rich to your first point of, you know, should we be convening some more discussion in this area, I'm happy to sort of start collecting who would be other sort of partnerships and groups first work with thinking about how to do this because I, you know, the road ship isn't road show isn't just limited by where we're able to go but it's limited by the, the time availability of how many things you have and so thinking about how to do some of these ways that you and how are talking about that sort of allow them to sort of grow and disseminate even more would I think be really useful to be. David again. So I think the virtual road show makes a lot of sense the, the other point is, is also that it can't be a static road show, I mean, things change things are always evolving so it's, you know, again it's a type of thing where you want to have it living and changing and adapting so the virtual aspect makes a lot more sense that way. And Steve maybe your point, which I think is a good one is it would be a silly exercise. And I'm just making this up and it would be a silly exercise ready to write a fund the development of a curriculum on a, on a three year grant, and then end it and just assume it's going to have a shelf life. I mean, if you don't continue if you're going to commit to it, you got to commit to it, especially in this area of work you'd have to commit to constantly updating it and so it would require ongoing, at least some amount of low, some amount of funding. I get it. Wouldn't that most logically be done through the animal. Well, others others could answer I mean that's one, what that's certainly one place we could logically do it. That would may end up being annual centric. So, and I think we shouldn't, we probably want to promote our brand, but I don't think we want to make an exclusive point of developing curriculum around our resources a lot of other resources out there that are, we probably want to make sure to get connected. After her. I wanted to say I want to voice my support of this, I think the timing is really great. I think that the impact could be really broad. And the reason is because of cloud computing and the resources already, you know, spent for creating and will have MDs are may not be comfortable with scripting and programming but with built in tools in cloud computing, it's certainly become very accessible for them to actually tackle big data. And, you know that you could imagine that there's research fellow or an intern who has six months or a year of research and they can potentially be very productive by, you know, knowing about and and the resources and the access to data sets, and, you know, really good, good research and results. And I think this is a really exciting time because you these tools make it accessible for people who are not sophisticated programming to actually start working with big data not not be afraid or intimidated by it. So I think Andrew is a good starting point, and then creating a curriculum where you teach people how to access the data and use the tools a doctor containers galaxy and all that stuff to really do all a lot of exciting work. Peter. There's been so much praise I feel the need to be a little contrarian in general I support this I think it's a great idea, but I think we have to be really careful about exactly how this is done and I'm worried about it being underfunded. Why do I say that well first of all, there's a there's just a ton of stuff available on Google and Coursera. I'm a consumer of a lot of that myself. I'm also thinking of another NIH resource, the Palantir platform so I'm involved in this N3C study. And that's got a ton of documentation but it's actually a lot of it is not up to date. And, and they just don't have the resources to keep it up to date and so the platform changes and the, and the documentation is no longer correct and and I mean I just wouldn't underestimate the effort needed to do this. I still struggle a little bit to see what is the connection to underrepresented minorities because it's hard for me to believe that the documentation should be different for different population backgrounds. And, and so I just get the feeling that the intention is great but I'm not actually entirely convinced by the implementation yet. Sergio, did you want to comment? Yes, if I may briefly. So Dr. Robinson that is actually excellent feedback. The part of this that we are trying to do across the board is foundational learning in data science and genomics and this is of course happening at a time where not just just the genome but for example the NIH Office of Data Science Strategy and the National Institute of Minority Health and Health Disparities. So we are looking to build content which should be usable by all students at the undergraduate and master's levels and in that sense we have at least at this point we have people or other NIH entities lined up where we hope to have enough funding for that documentation to be kept up to date as this cloud computing evolves. And the other piece of this is this is not being approached as an anvil only exercise. I think Dr. Kulo, you and others mentioned that, you know, a cloud approach here can only be as powerful as something that is a partnership of NIH clouds. We are connecting with all of us, we are connecting with the bio data catalyst, and hopefully the educational activity that will come out of this is not just anvil specific, but is trans NIH from a cloud computing perspective. But you make an excellent point about keeping things up to date and I completely agree that that will take active dedicated personnel to make sure that these materials stay up to date with what's happening. So we'll focus on that. I mean, one mechanism to keep things fresh, you know, updated and adequately funded is to view this as a partnership with, you know, local universities. If what we are doing is providing the tools to empower local teachers to provide their students a better experience, you know, I think we're more likely to achieve the goals of staying fresh and, and, you know, providing adequate funding. So, you know, I'm thinking of case studies or, you know, very carefully designed practical experiences that local professors or teachers can use to share with students but not necessarily the Institute taking full responsibility for a, you know, fully fleshed out teaching experience. Anyone on council, think of an example of another area of biomedical research or technology or site where sometime over the last 20 years that was in a similar inflection point, and there was a successful intervention by NIH to develop whatever was needed. I mean, I'm just looking for a case study that we could go back and see how it was funded or we could see how it was organized we could see what partnerships were developed. I'm just racking my brain I can't think of one but I wonder if there were examples of some new technology or some new clinical area, something. Okay, everybody has the same look that I feel I have in my head just feel like I'm missing so it would just be so good to have a precedent. Laura. We just had the all of us do a road show at Wash U in St. Louis, and they really have a very nice road show where they, you know, did small groups did a variety of things so it's in the same topic but yeah, they're really quite good. Okay. I'm aware of I mean I'm aware of what they're doing I was I was just trying to think of more what like how I was saying like massive course development case studies and just wondering, you know what predata genomics in this kind of realm that we can I'm just trying to figure out what other institutes might have done when their area was at a hot inflection point. Peter. I would comment, but I find the workshops that are given at meetings such as ASHG I mean it's a road show. I know that limits the ability of certain people to attend it but I find them very good because they're guaranteed to be up to date you have contacted the people. You know and I don't need a long curriculum to get to know how to learn to use some some platform I just think these are the important things and then I explore it. So I think that's very and I'd like to see NIH sort of support more of that that kind of thing. I think that's an effective way of educating people. I mean, Eric we do have some experience with us I think of the encode group for example, has had a number of those types of ASHG activities and and user focused meetings and other things that have really brought the sort of use of that. Yeah, I know I think the jamboree road show we call whatever we want public all that I was I was really honing in on how's point about truly developing a curriculum or developing saying working hand in glove with an academician who has a graduate program and about and I was just just trying to imagine the NIH do this very often how do they fund it what are examples what work what didn't work. So I was just looking for that my I agree with you and what Peter just said, no question we should continue to take all those opportunities but if we were going to actually really try to build something a little deeper and wider curriculum wise. When I was a fruitful decision. I'm going to draw us to close must want to change the subject. I'm just noticing that NIH, the Institute of General Medical Sciences has a web page called curriculum supplements. That has a lot of things to explore. So maybe, maybe that could provide some examples. Well, I mean it doesn't surprise me out of all the institutes I would have thought gms might have been a likely one for that kind of thing we will find out we'll have somebody talk to somebody. Sure.