 Welcome everybody. I'm Troy Dawson, Apple Steering Committee Chair. With me is Carl George. He's on the CPE team specifically for Apple. Is that correct, Carl? That is correct. We had a recent announcement about the CPE was going to staff Apple and that is now me. I was already on the CPE team. I just got my priorities reassigned. You got your priorities straight. That's good to hear. Okay, we're going to start off with some metrics. These are updated as of this week. There's sort of funness to talk about. There we go. Starting off, I use matte scripts. So we've got Velociraptorizer, which does the just counting the IP addresses. This is not totally accurate. If you're behind an IR, I was in the last session IRC. This is not IRC. Okay. Now, anyway, if you're behind a NAT, another three-letter acronym, then it only counts as one. So this is giving just a rough approximation, but it's fun to look at. If we have them all stacked, we're up above the five million point. That's really cool to see. In one way, it doesn't matter to Apple. We're probably still going to do it. We do no matter how many users, but on another way, it's nice to see that we have that many users. Now, if we break it down, Apple 7 looks a little strange here. Almost everything has this nice curve up. Carl, can you see my mouse pointer? I can see my mouse pointer. Good. So Steve Smushin has looked at this. According to him, this is based because Amazon Linux, AWS 2, is based on Rails 7. And it uses the Apple 7 thing. So this is when they changed a whole bunch of cloud images to Amazon 7. We can't tell that for sure because... Amazon 2. Amazon 2. Yeah. Thank you. You know what? I need to push your window over here. So last time, if you heard me speak, Rails 6, I was a little concerned because it hadn't really dropped. You know, with Rails 5, we had this drop. Rails 6, we didn't really drop. But it's finally starting to drop Rails 6 because we've been out of things for a little while, but it's finally starting to drop. And Apple 8 has finally crossed the path. So that's good to see. Now, this is brought to source of fire. It is using... Help me out, Carl. The CountMe... DNF CountMe. DNF CountMe. I always... I don't know why that doesn't stick in my mind. So because of that, this is only using Apple 8 on because it needed DNF. Rails 7 had YUM. So this is only Apple 8 on. Looking at this, I like the stacked one because it gives us the total numbers. So we have... The interjection, Troy. Yeah. It's not just Rel 8 on or Apple 8 on. Rel 8 didn't launch with a new enough DNF or Lib repo or Lib DNF. I forget the exact component. I'm sure Neil will correct me in the chat, but the exact component needed in the DNF stack to enable CountMe wasn't present at Rel 8 launch time. It came in 8.3. So some of the growth we see is systems upgrading from 8. Earlier, a point releases to 8.3 or higher. But yes, the big difference is that with DNF CountMe, rather than just counting unique IP addresses, every system gets a unique identifier. And there's an opt-out mechanism, but the main thing is that this helps solve the NAT problem so we get a lot more accurate usage numbers. Yep. So we'll break out into more of these more. I like the stacked ones. Sorry, I missed the correct. I mean, not a unique identifier, but enough to tell unique systems regardless of NAT. I don't know the exact implementation details perfectly. That's right because it says I've already been counted or I haven't been counted. Yes. It's a fairly anonymous thing, just not completely, but it's a really good balance between getting the unique systems just from my perspective of how many, not from like keeping an identification of it and respecting privacy. It's a good balance. I like it. Cool. Okay, so let's, I was going to say, so the differences in the other one, we were at like 750,000. This one were at 1.2 million. And then if we look at, let's break it out a little bit. Yeah. This is using Carl's scripts, not Bronda's source of the byte. Does your scripts have a name? No, they are just a script on my desktop. I need to put it in public Git somewhere, open source it properly and all that. But it is basically taking the DNF count me CSV file, doing some Python manipulation and doing some rudimentary Python MATLAB that I am just now learning how to use, which is why they look different. I don't even know exactly what I'm doing yet, but I'll get that open eventually. So more people will tinker with it, maybe get with Matthew and see what tools he's using. The charts look similar, like a similar font. So I don't know if he's using MATLAB also in the dinosaur tools or if I should just merge this in with his tools. Okay. I need to look at his MATLAB settings and make the charts look more alike. But the big thing here is like you said, breaking out the different distributions because that's part of the count me thing too is it does report which, what the system identifies itself as. So whereas, you know, we suspect in those big spikes for Apple seven, that it's Amazon Linux two, which is sort of real seven based. They have a lot of relayed and fedora things back ported to it. But with this new method, we can actually tell what systems are identifying themselves as. So we know that CentOS Linux is the most popular thing as far as consumers of Apple. Rel is a second, which is great to see, you know, rel being popular ensures that a lot of these things happen. I know that Neil said before that one of the best things you can do to support fedora is pay for a rel subscription. I'm not saying that somebody that doesn't work for red hat saying that I just like that take. I like having a job and I'm sure a lot of the other red hatters do too. So it's good to see rel growing as well. And then we have a few more. Don't try and squint too hard at those lower lines because in the next slide, we actually break those down a little further with a different scale. So that way I took out in this one, I just changed the criteria for like the range. Effectively it takes rel and CentOS Linux out of it. And this makes it where you can actually see those lower lines and I even put a lower limit on it too because there's more below this that would just be like a bundle of lines at the bottom. You couldn't tell any difference at all, but we'll go into further ones later. I'm really neat things here. I'm realizing now that I don't have the speaker notes, Troy has all those. So if I forget something I put in the notes, ping me, shout out at me. Some of them are my own notes and so, but you're presenting so. So CentOS stream is growing. Yeah, I really like this CentOS. Yeah, I was gonna say I like the CentOS stream growing trend. I'm really coming to like CentOS stream myself. So I'll let you go into the slide deck myself so I can actually see the speaker notes. That's probably the right way. That's a good idea. Well, I'll do the one thing. I don't know what happened with Alma Linux. Somebody uninstalled Alma Linux. Rocky is on the same, you know, a nice slope. And we see that they both have not over overtaken Oracle Linux, but it's, well, it's not going down, but everyone's growing my lungs. It is notable that both Rocky and Alma, you know, despite starting after Oracle Linux and Oracle Linux didn't just start with eight, they've been around for a while. They've already surpassed it in popularity, which for some people is understandable. There's some animosity in the community towards Oracle for various reasons, but they are all clones of rel like CentOS is the model that CentOS is moving away from. And the whole idea is that they functionally are identical. So it's expected that they will keep growing as CentOS, CentOS Linux eight reaches its end of life and people either transition to, to rel CentOS stream or one of these new, new clone distributions. And cloud Linux, aren't they the sponsors of Alma Linux? Yes. So cloud Linux is on that chart as well. Cloud Linux was already a distribution. They're not a real clone. They're more like Amazon Linux. They're a rel derivative. They do not try to maintain exact compatibility. They upgrade a few things here and there. I can't speak super authoritatively about their distribution. Maybe, maybe Jack's around the conference later today and people could ask him if they, if they're curious, but that is my rudimentary understanding of what they do with that distribution. I do know that in the future they are planning to transition since they started Alma Linux to be an actual rel clone and stay identical, what they would like to do is make cloud Linux instead of being its own unique thing, have that be based on Alma Linux so that they don't have to build the same things twice that don't diverge, which is a logical step to take. Yep. Okay. One more quick thing. I've seen the chat people are talking about Oracle's Apple. For a long time we thought that Oracle's numbers were way underrepresented because they run their own Apple repository. But come to find out, I've looked into it a little closer. They don't enable that by default and DNF install Apple release doesn't do anything. They have a separate name for their release package. It doesn't provide Apple release. So anyone following the instructions to get Apple are going to get the public Apple and be represented in this chart. You have to go out of your way to pick the Oracle version of Apple, which is, I wish they didn't call it Apple because it's not Apple. It doesn't have, it has additional packages that aren't an Apple that they're not contributing back and it doesn't have everything that's in Apple. So it is not Apple, but it's not like that's a trademark name or anything so we can't stop them. Either way, you have to go out of your way to use that. I feel like for a long time we thought these numbers on this chart were misrepresented, but I feel like it's actually pretty accurate now after looking into it a little bit. Okay. I think this next one's interesting. We're getting down to the 100 to 5K systems per week. Yes. So Cloud Linux, you can see their growth pattern a little bit more, which I'm sure they're happy about. You know, that keeps at least a few engineers that also work on all the Linux employed. So that's a good thing in general, just like it's a good thing that, you know, Rails growing and keeping Red Haters employed. Virtuoso Linux is another one. I'm not really sure. A lot of these I don't know anything about or know very, very little about. I know Springdale Linux. Back with Scientific Linux, we had some people that were debating between... It's done by university. Right. It's been around for a while. And we'll see the... There's one more chart where it breaks down further so you can see the difference. So this is between 30 and 200 systems, you know, hitting the repositories per week. And you can see Springdale above a lot of the other ones. There's a few in here that I know that I had never heard about until I started looking at this data, like Red Hawk Linux and AnalystOS. It's also possible some of these are products based on Rails sources or CentOS sources that are just also... that also have Apple enabled. I tried looking into some of these. Some of them, their websites are not in English and I am a dumb American that only speaks English, so I was lost. But S-U-S-E one, that's an interesting one. That one really surprised me. I tweeted about that recently. I noticed it show up in these charts and I can't find any kind of public announcement about this. I looked around but I tweeted about it and maybe it's a conspiracy theory but after I tweeted about it, you can see that was right around where it started dropping. The numbers dropped to zero after I publicly noticed it. My suspicion is that this is something they're working on, maybe it comes to fruition, maybe it doesn't, but they realized after I tweeted that DNF CountMe has enabled and either deleted all the systems or turned off Apple. There's no kind of proof that this isn't just somebody just playing a prank and taking some CentOS boxes, changing the release field and then just running. But that seems to run nearly 80 boxes at one point. That seems like a pretty elaborate prank. Not impossible with cloud automation. Somebody came up with Magero. Am I pronouncing that right? It's the old, Mandriva has forked anyway. But I saw them pop up. I don't think they had 30. There was like one or two and I thought that's strange. For Magero, which is a Mandrake derivative, I tested and you could install 5,000 out of the 7,000 Apple 8 packages on it. Even though they're not trying to be real compatible per se. They're not trying to be real compatible. So I'm not going to say Susie isn't Apple compatible. It's quite possible somebody did that. But you're right, it dropped. Okay. Well, if this is the thing they're working on, it seems like they were at least working on it. They started showing up there in August. It looks like so. I don't know. Maybe one day we'll see another, another real clone coming out from a different vendor. And that would be, that would be interesting. We would welcome them into the, the greater red hat ecosystem. That would be more people using Apple and more people using real source code. And conversely, more people that if all of these clone distributions, the big thing that I keep reminding people is, is that they want to be a clone. They're bug for bug compatible. If they want to fix a bug in their distribution, they've got to come to CentOS, because CentOS is now the contribution path to get a change into RHEL, which has becomes their sources. CentOS stream. Yes. I am looking forward to the future where the only CentOS is CentOS stream. So it's much less ambiguous to talk about. That's true. We still got four years for that. Think about it like this. The contribution path is CentOS, the CentOS project. How about that? That's a good idea. CentOS project. We're halfway through, so I'm going to, we're still in the metric. So I'm going to pop on through. This is architecture. And to be honest, it's actually lower than this. XA6 actually has more than 98%, but this just shows it. So R64 is almost 2%, but not quite. So I'm showing this one before I show the next ones. So by architecture, CentOS Linux, of course, is still the first for XA664, Red Hat Linux is there. And on this one, it goes stream Alma Oracle Rocky, which is interesting on an XA664. But then when we look at the next, Arch64, we see CentOS, actually CentOS stream passes rel on Arch64. That's an interesting thing. Then we go Rocky. So for whatever reason, people are liking Rocky on Arch64. Then we go to Oracle and Alma. PowerPC64 isn't a surprise there. Red Hat for the majority. And I didn't even have to change this slide for the last two times. S390X, if you can afford that, you are using rel. This is one that I'm sort of waiting to see what it looks like in the year. But I think this is age over time. So the light blue, these are, I think of them as containers. They're throw away machines, basically run it up, run a test or two, but they don't last over a week. And in my experience, it's probably they live less than a day. Some of them probably minutes. The two to four weeks are more the test machines or what I picture is people doing a one month, once a month you reinstall your machines. That's one way to keep them updated, make sure you have everything clean. Five to 24 weeks, that's the three month span. To be honest, I'm sort of, I don't know how you would just keep it for three months. Maybe it's the same as one month, but you have three months. And then 25 plus weeks are those long-term servers that enterprise releases are more known for. And again, it starts with the red thing, I talked about earlier. This count me stuff didn't even happen until 8.4. So give us a year and then this, this one will probably be a boring graph. Okay. Oh, we're into the actual stuff. Did you have any more things about, you know, we only got 10 minutes. Yeah, let's, let's get into the actual stuff. Maybe you might know, you might not know. We've transitioned from the fedora wiki to fedora docs with the Apple. We're actually on the front fedora docs page. Just quick comments there, get there. We still are doing some tweaking. Some of the pages didn't get transferred right. There was a big push to get that up there. And then people sort of been relaxing, but we are still updating the docs. Let's go for the next one. Hey, do you have your notes here? Yes, I have my notes now. Okay, good. Cause I actually can't see my, I'm acting like a professional presenter. So I've got the, the, the notes, the speaker notes now. Apple eight. One thing we want to say one thing. And this is very recent news. And I'm pretty sure everybody here, but over 35 was released. But so was a rel 8.5 was released. Those packages are now in the epilate build route. If, if you have a library or package that needs to be rebuilt, rebuild it now. Hopefully you did it in epilate next, but before we segue to the next one, before we segue there to the next slide, Troy, one other thing I wanted to bring up is that rel 8 launched with a lot of what for, for a lot of mit with a lot of missing development packages. That was kind of a focused effort from rel to limit what they limit their support implications. And I get both sides of it. I understand some of the justifications for it, but also that has side effects where some apple packages need those development packages. Now, typically you can just add software to apple. That's not in rel. But if the package was built by rel, but only partially shipped like say the library shipped in rel, but the development packages isn't, then that means only red, only red hat can build against that those development headers, which is very painful for apple. We've hammered on that issue and the process we have in place now is that users can request additional packages, development packages be added to the code ready, build a repository in rel. There's still some support implications to that. But we've had some moderate amount of success with getting new development package added. So if there was an apple package, you wanted to add to apple eight that wasn't possible before. If you're missing a development package that rel should be providing file a bug or look and see if there's already one already a bug and maybe even just check and see if it's already been handled because we have far more development packages than rel eight shipped with. So things are getting a lot better. Yeah, we actually have that next. Well, I just want to add on that we do have that document in the apple eight talks how to do that now. And one of the shifts that they did internally to red hat was it used to be the standard answer was no, but then they shifted to allow it for the developers. So the, or the maintainers, the maintainers might still tell you no, and they might have a reason. But far more of them have said yes. And I've been grateful because my apple eight stuff are finally, it's all building on apple eight. Okay, next, but transitioning to apple eight next. Yeah, so we mentioned the rel eight five release and how some things need to be rebuilt. The big one is anything that builds against qt qt got rebased. I think it was 512 to 515 in rel eight five. So we knew about that ahead of time because I've sent to a stream and the benefits that gives us now is seeing what's coming in rel sooner. We started apple apple eight next. I believe I think it launched back in June. If I remember right. And what that does is that apple eight builds against rel eight apple eight next builds against sent to a stream eight. You use packages usually don't need to worry about it because typically packet rel packages and libraries are stable across the life of the distribution and no library versions don't change. And so that a pack to the point where a package built against rel eight point zero has a good chance of working on rel eight point ten at the end of its life. Not always. It's not a hundred percent. Sometimes like we said with cakes with qt rebases and library so name changes are necessary. And when those happen, the packages have to be rebuilt in apple. Same thing with other third party repositories. What apple eight next allowed was for people like Troy and anyone else to build their apple apple eight packages against sent to a stream, pick up those library changes early and offer compatible packages to send to a stream eight users. That was a big improvement because up until then there's a small percentage of apple packages that wouldn't install into a stream. Those things that were going to need to be rebuilt. This also has the benefit of anyone using rel eight point five on day one before apple eight packages have had a chance to be rebuilt can temporarily enable apple eight next to get a compatible build installed. It really helped us be ready. Having apple eight next helped us be ready for the eight point five launch. And it was a lot better. Yep. I know personally I used to have to do that all offline and then I had to upload it to my own little KDE repo for people so much easier so much nicer. And it's making things easier for me. Let's go for the next one. Apple nine next. So this is what I think. Yeah, I think this is what people really want to hear about. Right. I've heard from several people that sent to a stream nine isn't ready until they have apple for it. And that's what we're working on. That is part of the CPE to stash to staff Apple initiative and what I'm working on. We are very close. We have most of the pieces in place. There's an issue right now with the fedora s390 builders starting up nine build routes. It's a mainframe thing with s390 and we're hoping to get that resolved next week. And then at some point will very some point very soon as soon as that's resolved however long that takes we'll be launching Apple nine next. The big difference that will be a little confusing is that with eight. Apple eight next is a layer on top of apple eight. You should be you can't use it by itself. You're supposed to use apple eight and if you need it apple eight next also when apple nine next launches it's going to be a standalone repo. Initially that'll be the primary location for for packages to target to get packet extra packages out there for sent to a stream nine. But once rail nine launches then we can actually create apple nine proper at that point the focus shifts where apple nine is the primary target for packages and most things built there will just work it were on all all rail nine and sent to a stream nine based distributions. But then apple nine next will still be go on to exist for when new library changes happen and sent to a stream for the next minor release and a package has to be rebuilt and it will get back to the state that eight is in now. Cool. I'm excited for it. I can't wait for those s390 filters to come online. Okay. Apple nine when you already talked a little bit about it. What about apple nine? The only other thing I'll mention is part of that transition whenever the idea is that we have apple nine next available as soon as possible before the rail nine launch let packages add packages to it and build out that content set. Community packages not red hat red hat red hat staffing of apple has nothing to do with building specific packages. It's about making things making the infrastructure available and making things run smoothly. We want to have it available have packages start adding stuff to it and then at rail nine release time set up apple nine and then we plan to do this is a plan that mohan came up with that sounds amazing. We all liked it. Basically take all of the apple nine pack apple nine next packages do a mass branch for apple nine and a mass rebuild against real not exact rail nine content. Because at that point apple nine next will have already moved on to rail nine point one. So we need to do a rebuild to make sure it's a hundred percent compatible at launch time and we'll just pre populate all of that in apple nine and hopefully have that available within a matter of weeks after the rail nine launch which is a big improvement over you know I looked into it and apple eight apple eight launch three months after relate launch. On top of the problem with the devil packages I mentioned earlier growing apple eight content has been a challenge. And we'd like to make that less painful going forward. Okay. Oh we're very short on time. Apple and red hat. Is there any more we know that you got hired carl is there anything more that red hat is doing. There's a big shift in focus to enabling apple and making things possible and getting out of our way things like shipping the devil packages supporting us. We're growing the team. We actually have two people inside the CPE team. We say hired on this team but there's sub teams and all this other stuff but there are two people within mine and choice team CPE that are specifically assigned to work on apple and we're hoping to grow that in the future. For those clarifying it's not me. Although I do that the kitty builds on the apple committee chair I am not my priorities unlike carls are not towards apple. Workwise. Personally wise they are. Workwise that is not what my priorities are at work. See do we have anything else? Okay I just got a minute. I am currently rebuilding the KDE for apple 8 it's about halfway through it should be done by Monday. There will be one update after that that is the plasma I don't have it written down even in my notes. The next plasma which is literally coming out it's in raw hide it's in fedora 35 it will be hitting fedora 34 within a week or two. So there will be one update after that and then we'll stabilize that. So I just wanted to mention that there. Questions and answers this is low on time. Carl do we have any questions? Can ask us questions. Is there any questions and answers real quick? Oh there is Q&A. Matthew asks how does apple next differ from ELN next or whatever it was just announced on the fedora devil list. I suspect that is talking about the ELN extras. ELN extras there is a document coming up on that I'm actually working on that this week. But in short ELN extras is built on ELN . Apple extras is built on centos stream. That's the short answer. Will they automatically go over there? I don't see any other questions. I do see a poll but worry about that. Well thank you very much for letting us let's see . I don't see any other questions. I do see a poll but worry about that. Well thank you very much for letting us let's see do they have any other things? No just references. I got another thing before we go I want to talk about why it's dinosaur names with the stats. It's to make it's a joke between Smooch and I really but basically looking at these stats because we don't do telemetry or invasive metrics at all it's not like a hard science or a there's a lot of speculative science and it is a lot like digging through layers of dirt in archaeology to figure out what these dinosaur bones mean and we've got a lot of things where oh we thought that was a triceratops leg but actually it's something else going on in there so they should be taken with that grain of that view and so dinosaur names for these scripts that's basically what's going on there. I like it. Hey everyone you can't be late to the next talk because the speakers here. Right exactly and now I'm going to go over to that session I'll see you there. It's like you can't be late coming back from lunch if you're having lunch with the boss.