 So, good afternoon, my name is Dr J Simon Rowe and on behalf of the Centre of International Studies and Diplomacy, I'd like to welcome you to this webinar addressing Michael Jordan, Globalisation and where we are in the world. These are the issues that have been brought to a head by the production of The Last Dance and I'd like to take this moment to say thank you to a couple of people who've made this all possible, not least my co-collaborator-in-chief, Lindsay Krasnoff, who I'll pass on to in a moment. And also Ashika Doshi, Jacob Loose and Fadil, who has been stored in organising this facility. So thank you very much to everyone else. Thank you to all of you for joining us wherever you may be in the world. I'm mindful we've probably span I think all continents in this discussion already and numerous time zones. So whatever time of the day it is with you, thank you very much for making the effort to join us. I'm not going to speak for too long because you didn't come here to listen to me but to be part of a discussion. So I'm going to pass on to Lindsay for just a brief welcome on her behalf. Thank you. Hi, thank you Simon. It's always a pleasure to find new ways to collaborate together, especially on, for me, a very exciting topic, basketball diplomacy on its globalisation and the airing of The Last Dance and how it's very quickly become a global cultural phenomenon provided us a really wonderful window of opportunity. And I thought it would, you know, prove us all to leave in some interesting angles to help learn a lot and put some of this discussion into greater context. So just to kind of give a brief overview. I'm a Celtics fan I grew up on the Boston Celtics so I do not come to this discussion as a Chicago Bulls or Michael Jordan fan girl, but it's really interesting in that, you know, watching the The Last Dance and thinking of Michael Jordan in context takes off a lot of really interesting questions that particularly are invited speakers and then also some of you who I know who are in this room today. I hope to learn a lot from you and your views and perspectives on this one kind of administrative thing to take care of at the outset. Thanks to Ashika. We'd like to do a little bit of a capture exercise while we're on here today. So using the chat function right now before we officially fully kick off. If you could type one word that comes to mind on your thoughts about The Last Dance, Michael Jordan or Jordan's global impact. And then at the very end we'll ask you to do it again. Maybe a different word will come to mind. Maybe not. And Ashika is going to capture this and we'll use it in our post event wrap up. So that that's it for me on the administrative side. I'd like to turn the mic over first to Alex Wolfe who will kick us off on our kind of global looking globally at our topic today. This is a contributing editor and writer of Sports Illustrated, an author of The Audacity of Hoop. He's had a long career in basketball covering it around the globe and Alex I will pass it off to you. Thanks Lindsay. Before I did The Audacity of Hoop I worked on this book called Big Game Small World, A Basketball Adventure. And there was a comment that Barack Obama made right at the end of episode 10 of The Last Dance about how Jordan and the Bulls projected American soft power that sent me back more than 20 years to when I began working on Big Game Small World and flew to Beijing and was met there by a lovely guy named Xu Zhixiang who's the host of China Central TV's NBA show called Basketball Park. And everyone in the country knew him as Big Xu because he was 6'4 and he also had size 13 feet. And a couple years prior he'd been in Salt Lake at the NBA finals where he met David Stern and he told David Stern in a few years China could be your second largest market to which Big Xu told me with great pride Stern said it should be the first. So explain to me how basketball had long ago been embedded in the country's DNA. China was among the first countries that those freshly trained missionaries from the YMCA Training School, kited off to with their Bibles and the rules to the NBA Smith's new game with the Army's founding in 1927. It was already the most popular game among the troops. And by the time of the Cultural Revolution, basketball was so well established that even as the music of Beethoven was denounced for being western and bourgeois basketball got a pass. Until the terror of the the Red Guards ended in 1976 though players on the national team didn't dare be a star, she told me. If a player stood out too much coaches would call an emergency team meeting for him to be denounced by his teammates for daring to exhibit quote the unhealthy American imperialist style of seeking headline. Indeed up until the year before I visited this would have been the late 90s. The Chinese League did not even keep individuals. So into the center Michael Jordan. Now, in Mandarin. The ideograms and the transliterations that indicated Jordan's name where this, which is the, the ideogram chow QIO, which means skillful or clever or ingenious and has connotations of honor or honesty. The other half of it conveniently enough, the three letters we recognize as the back half of Jordan, Don, which is a term for medicine that suggests the miraculous power but it's also a verb that means to shoulder or to carry a burden. And has connotations and associations with a color red, of course, in addition to being the bulls uniform color has associations in Chinese culture of action and celebration or authority anytime you get a passport stamped in China will come in red ink. So the Chinese could essentially sound out Jordan surname while conveying in their own tongue the very attributes that they were venerating him for. And as big shoe told me, you'll notice that people never talk about his statistics only about child bonds technique and spirit. So through the 90s, just as Jordan was shedding the role of this prodigious prodigious individual score on a very mediocre team and began to mount the throne of the Chicago dynasty. Deng Xiaoping the premier was proclaiming this new China open to the West in new ways to get a sense of why Jordan was so special at this time. I walked big shoe through several other NBA players to find out why they weren't as highly regarded as he was. And he said, yeah, he's too big. And Rodman, he's too immodest. And Alan Iverson fell a lot of young people students they like him because he's clever, but he never passes the ball and Chinese people think he's he's violating the rules because he dribbles so high. So I think I was catching on and I said, Well, what about Grant Hill, he's a great player, he's really humble and shoe cut me off. And people say Grant Hill lacks the quality of the king. A star must have the regal quality of an emperor and must behave as if everything is under his control, as if he's unwilling to obey anyone else or have anyone overtake him. If there's anything by the way, in the last dance that we got out of that about Michael Jordan is that is who he was. And she added, his team must be at the top. In Chinese history over 3000 years, every emperor had his dynasty. And that is background, you can see why, when I turn my TV off a couple of Sundays ago. I was transported back to China. Thanks so much for your attention. Thank you so much, Alex. A good start indeed. And if we can press on a little bit, then Cynthia might return to you and your experience. Don't forget to unmute. We're trying to get used to it. Absolutely. Great. Hi, everyone. It's evening here. It's about 6pm in Nairobi. Wow. So, you know, I was asked what words do you think about when you think of, you know, the last dance and Michael Jordan and this took me, you know, way back when I started playing basketball about 20 years ago. I had before I was a sprinter. Pretty good if I can convince myself. I went to high school. They threw me into the hockey pitch. And I run away immediately because, you know, I saw guys with injuries and I was capable. First day I, you know, I threw it in and it went into the, into the hoop and I was like, man, this is, you know, this is what I want. I want to play. We grew up at a time where, you know, we didn't have so much access to the TV. National TV would come on at 4pm, between 4pm and 9pm. And we only had access to basketball. The NBA program, the NBA action on Sunday afternoon at 4pm. Everyone around me, you know, we used to play all these kids games. But at 4pm on Sunday afternoon, everything stopped. Every little thing stopped. 96, 97 was really Jordan. And I have to say, even me sitting here this moment, if I didn't have that experience with my basketball, probably would have turned up into something else. And it's a conversation that I hear so often with a lot of the basketballers in my generation that, you know, Jordan was so influential. A couple of days ago, I had a conversation with a friend, a good friend of mine. His name is Hisham Alamrani. He's the former CEO of CAF. But for those of us who do not know, CAF is Confederation of African Football. So this guy, rather football, goes through his vein. I mean, all he thinks about is soccer and soccer and soccer. So I was telling him about, you know, this conversation that I'm coming to have today with all of us around basketball diplomacy. And his light just went up. He was like, oh my goodness, Michael Jordan was everything in my time. Now remember guys, this is a guy from Morocco. He didn't have any access to basketball apart from that time. And he insisted that I don't remember watching basketball again after or before that. The way I used to dress at that time was because of what I was watching with, you know, with the NBA and with Michael Jordan. We do not have direct access to, you know, like Nike. I'll say first hand. We call it second hand. We call it thrift shop. You call them thrift shop. Between the 1996, you know, 1996 and about, I would say now, it's a meaning how if you walk in, do you have your thrift shops? If you go to a football, if you go to water, when you look at the young guys who are kind of, is absolutely incredible. People go to thrift shop, second hand, you know, Jordan. Now this is a guy in Nairobi who you would very rarely ever think that, you know, would have this conversation. You have WhatsApp groups of young guys talking about the last band, talking about, you know, greatest, but these conversations are going. Now this is a part of the world where you wouldn't probably expect it, but it's ingrained. We don't culture and you ask a 12 year old who probably didn't have the experience of Jordan. What do you think about basketball? He's going to tell you the usual LeBron James. But when you ask him about any other basketball or any of the older basketball is that, you know, the fast name that always comes is Michael Jordan. So it's, you know, it's a real honor to have lived through that time. And the influence is absolutely great. We're now talking about, you know, the basketball Africa League setting up and being launched anytime shortly and unfortunately because of COVID, you know, we had to have that canceled or postponed for that matter. But even in that conversation at the launch, Jordan was, you know, Jordan is and Jordan was one of the main faces of this particular league that's coming up. So he's very influential in Africa. People know about him and it's, it's, I'm certain that in the next couple of years or, you know, even within this period after the launch, there's definitely going to be a lot of conversation and his influence is great. Thank you, Simon. Thank you very much, Cynthia. Thank you for persevering through a few connection challenges there as part of the joy of this particular form. But thank you. I think it's interesting to the point of the influence of Jordan generation of Africans who never saw him play. And yet today there's still that discourse surrounding to move on, if we may, to another time zone. Certainly, over to you, sir. Thank you. Good evening. Actually, it's 1130 in Kuala Lumpur right now. And eight Bobarak or as we say it in Malaysia, Selamat Hari Raya Ideal Fitri. Thank you, Lindsay, for the opportunity and good meeting you, Dr. Simon. Now, I'm glad Alex raised or pointed out the China element in his opening speech, because basketball isn't exactly a popular spot in Malaysia. The sport is pre dominantly played by the Chinese community for decades. In fact, teachers from China had introduced the sport to Chinese school in what was known as malaria in the early 1920s. There was small numbers of non Chinese playing the game, but search of interest was seen during the 80s and 90s. And that stands to the exploits of the Chicago Bulls team and obviously Michael Jordan. Now, this was an era where there's no social media, no cable TV in Malaysia. So enthusiasts had to rely on newspaper reports, traded VHS tapes, just to catch some of these matches. And come to think about it, I think it'd be easier to support English football team rather than the Chicago Bulls. But that was the impact and that was how the team resonated to Malaysians. Now, I don't need to speak about, you know, how great the team was or, you know, the lasting impression MJ has created upon all of us. I think that's that's evident in so many ways, but I need to stress this, that this team of really talented players, and they're really good branding exercise defined the childhood and the lives of many individuals in Malaysia. Now, why do I say this is because they are different races in Malaysia, and they had another thing in common through basketball. If you wore, if you wore an Air Jordan or a number 23, 23, sorry, Jesse, you automatically get noticed. And Malaysians were further enlightened to the American culture, to its music, to its lifestyle through basketball. And the popularity of bulls and also MJ had indirectly allowed the US Embassy in Kuala Lumpur to embark on most sports diplomacy programs, especially through basketball. You know, we've had quite a number of programs like the Sports Envoy program, we've seen an NBA cares basketball clinic held in Kuala Lumpur. We've also seen some of the former bulls player like Dennis Rodman, for example, play exhibition matches in Kuala Lumpur, particularly in 2012 and 2013. Now it's amazing how one team and one man can create such a huge impact on the lives of so many people across the globe. And I recorded the views of several individuals who have seen MJ in action, although MJ has never been to Malaysia. I mean, as a professional player that is. But yeah, these people have seen MJ in action at the 1992 Barcelona Olympics, for example. And I ended my article on 2013 with a quote from the FIBA Asia Secretary General Emeritus, Yoju Hock, and I would like to end my five minutes here with what he said. That was the beauty of MJ and the Chicago team. They were ambassadors of the sport, the American culture and the lifestyle. It is thanks to icons like them that the status of the sport was raised to new heights. Thanks a lot. Thank you so much for being a perspective from Kuala Lumpur and thank you so much for staying up into the night with us. And so in opening up the conversation to other colleagues, I wanted to just think about what Michael Jordan and his impact on globalization from wherever you may sit in the world. What's your impression. If we've used a flag facility will be able to sort of come to colleagues in turn will do our level best to get through everyone I'm sure colleagues have a lot to say so if we can open up who would like to start the conversation. Perhaps won't throw one out then for you if as a, you know, young teenager in the UK, particularly short teenager as I was still am to a degree. And what Michael Jordan meant to me, I recount a conversation with my grandfather, a Second World War veteran who was convinced that Air Jordan was the national carrier of a country he'd served in in the Second World War. And it took us a lot of, you know, convincing that Air Jordan was actually the brand. So in this instance, and I share it, you know, the personal anecdote. We want that the brand preceded both the athlete and the sport in the context of the row family discussions. And I think that's one of the important functions of this is where does what's the access point to Michael Jordan in a globalizing world of sport during the course of the 1980s and 1990s. Where does the connection, where is the connection made. And ultimately because there are so many different points of conjunction if you like, it allows for that broader engagement but I share that as a opening gambit. Any, who would like to. Tom, please. Thanks, Simon. Fascinating discussion to listen to the back and forth from around the world and I think for me as a, as sort of a basketball fan and player when I was growing up, probably actually at the beginning of the Jordan. I was playing with Chicago and I'd sort of moved on, you know, I was at university when, when that's for the, for the vast part of the most part of the, the period covered by last dance really so I kind of passed me by a bit because I didn't have the money to have subscriptions to all sorts of TV series TV streams that I would have would have needed to have followed that. Fascinating listening to that opening kind of exchange around the world is actually the breadth and the depth and the power of firstly the NBA and secondly Michael Jordan or maybe the other way around depending on how you put it to have to have built built the kind of the brand and around the world in a pre social media rage. So, it would be interesting to hear what people's views are on on just how big he would be and just how, you know, how big the Chicago balls of that period would be if it was now in the way that the international media helps to amplify individual athlete brands and individual, you know, team brands, you know, whereas you just said about the Air Jordan brand, if it wasn't for Nike. You know, it could have it, who knows but but these days it'd be interesting to get some views from people on that. Other thoughts points. Where does where's that access point is it the the brand of Jordan the brand of Nike, the jump man, the NBA, the sport. Where do we think the, the different access points are there to the regional will generate differentiations. And one thing I would like to kind of add into that as as people think about answering and it ties into I think what we've heard from Alex Cynthia and harsh is to what extent do we think Jordan being somewhat a relatively blank slate for others to kind of mirror, you know, their perceptions of him, to what extent does that play in here, you know, there's been certainly critiques about Jordan not being political in any way shape or form. And, you know, certainly what Alex was talking about in terms of, you know, he had the attributes of a king in a way that others did not know how might that factor into this mix. Gavin, can I rely on you to bring your point about cultural relations. Hello, can you hear me Simon. Certainly cancer, those Welsh tones. Um, no, just just from my perspective night, Nike Jordan's were a really cool and hit item to have at my school and certainly in most schools in South Wales where I am at the moment in the UK. I was more of an adidas man but but certainly I think by virtue of the footwear it was a sort of portal into basketball. I think people probably took a bit more interest in basketball as a result. I think we also have to think about the fact that back in the 80s and 90s traveling to the US was a bit more of a luxury than it has been in recent times. So, I think it was sort of there's a bit more of a mystique around the NBA within the UK, even though you could access it through TV, it was still sort of a long way away. So, yeah, just a few points there. Thank you. Um, Shafi, please. Hello, can you hear me. Can indeed. Yes, I'm from London, born and raised here. Child in the 90s and yeah, my access point was for a lot of kids obviously Space Jam and the movie itself. And what's really for me, he was someone on screen before he was a basketball player, which is extraordinary. I'm thinking about as myself, somebody who's a big football soccer fan, I'm thinking about parallels with the Premier League, and that was globalizing as well at the same time. But yeah, I mean, I still, you know, in that era, I guess there wasn't a soccer slash football player as at that pinnacle was as Jordan was. And me that's that's really interesting to look back on now and, you know, associates Jordan with the world of Hollywood, which is extraordinary. I think Space Jam has a lot to answer for in some regards and we'll get to revisit some of it with the second iteration of the film coming out, possibly this later on in the summer. Certainly, you know, the multiple access points allows for a discourse and to Lindsay's point of there being a different ways of, you know, reading, Jordan, there is a something of that that blank slate capacity, certainly that makes an interesting dimension to where you can apply your own set of values and aspirations and hopes. Certainly. And let's let's move. Thank you, Michelle, if you're going to perhaps to the subcontinent to India. Hi, Simon. How are you? Yeah, so I just want to just talk about you know, the Jordan's popularity in India, not a lot of people realize that basketball is quite popular in India. And recently in the Indiana Pacers, and, you know, even Spurs had visited Mumbai and played two games in Mumbai. And we do hear we do have a cult following, especially with regards to a couple of teams here, and NBA has made quite a lot of footprints. I think I was born when Jordan had his first NBA title. So, but after that, we had, we did follow, even though not a lot of things were shown in TV, but I think post 1998 2000, we started having NBA in ESPN in India. And even in the school, we started playing and it got quite a quite a lot of popular in India. And even now, people do follow a lot of teams, because I also just to remind you that in India NBA comes in at around five o'clock in the morning. So, we generally, we wake up at five o'clock and do just to watch an NBA game. So, yeah, I mean, post Jordan era has been really huge in the impact of how basketball popularity helped in India, especially NBA, how they managed to take over that popularity and make sure that it connects with the people in India. I certainly wonder if there's a, you know, the, the, the icon within Indian sport, you know, in a sort of almost contemporary, certainly the starter would have been Sashin Tendulkar. And I wonder if there's a, you know, useful parallel to be drawn, you know, to what extent did Tendulkar learn some of the lessons that Jordan, you know, provided in terms of in association with Nike, for example, being, you know, sort of apolitical to a degree. But, you know, just a mass, mass following with them within India, obviously. Yeah, I mean, definitely Sashin, as you know, is a God like figure in India, similar to what Jordan is in basketball phase. But what we saw is also Sashin getting more attracted towards Michael Schumacher. You know, he was, he used to, you know, adore him. And he still is a big fan of F1. I don't see him much getting into basketball, but he's definitely a huge fan of F1 and, and obviously, as you know, he has a huge cult following in the cricket space, similar to what Jordan has in basketball. Okay, thanks so much. I wonder about the taking on the question that Thomas Hunt has posed to us previously. Tom, would you like to articulate that one for Bob? Yeah. Hi, Bob. This is for Bob Edelman. I'm curious if you're, because I don't speak Russian or any other languages that were, are you, were used on the other side of the iron curtain. What was, if you have any insight, Jordan's impact on the other side of the iron curtain, particularly in the 1980s, during the era of Reagan. So I would be interested in hearing. Thanks. Okay, Bob Edelman. I'm, I think I'm on. Can you guys see me? Hear me? What room are you in, Tom? It's a virtual background. I have bad curtains behind me. So, my virtual background is Moscow. I've been thinking about this quite a bit. And I was just talking with Alex before we started about how I'd been to the Soviet Union in 1988 with the Atlanta Hawks. And I've always had a pretty close relationship with Soviet basketball. My best friend, who I met during that tour, became the editor in chief of Sport Express, which is their national sports data that emerged in the last years of last months, really, up here at Stryker. So, part of what they did in terms of the kind of, first of all, let's kind of, can we throw out the iron curtain? One of the things I think we've learned, I'm working on, as you know, I'm working on Cold War. And we've learned that the Cold War, I mean, thanks for your efforts that along those lines, by the way, that the, the iron curtain was pretty osmotic. And one of the areas in which it was osmotic was not so much basketball, which was, I think, an important part of it, but obviously football. And so the predecessors of the Champions League are part of that. But in terms of media, right, in terms of Soviet, post-Soviet media, there was basically ice hockey and football. And I think what certainly was aided by Jordan, but also even prior to that by Magic Johnson and Larry Bird and really the entire spectrum of basketball was making basketball a strong number three in terms of what the perception was. So later on, you know, I was going to talk about this at the end, that Jordan is a post-Cold War person. And so some of the attractions, I think, that he, especially his branding, which is what we've been talking about a lot, were not that different from the things that we've heard so far. And I just also wanted to say quickly that I'm scraping myself off the ceiling with how elated I am by what I'm hearing today. And I'll save some of that. But, you know, in terms of Jordan, he was the first among equals, but there's a rather extensive prehistory of the Soviet interest in basketball, which is interesting. As some of you know, in terms of globalization, because the Soviet Union was a kind of small mini globalization project called, you know, multiple nationalities. And so basketball, in particular, in the Soviet context was a multinational sport where the Baltic countries were very strong as you probably know. And so they were able to kind of internationalize fairly easily when Jordan came along. Thanks very much, Bob. I think it's a good point to me about the sort of transnational qualities that some sports already have, and particularly within a political context of the Soviet Union and what we would have termed the Eastern block, those, you know, connections were certainly evident. And, you know, perhaps testament to the first generation of athletes who came out of that experience from the former Soviet states into the 1990s, which, you know, in by today's comparisons, perhaps not a lot of international players, but certainly in terms of the environment of the 1990s, if you contrasted that with the 1970s or 1980s. And if we may, just being in our second round of speakers, so I'd like to turn over to Professor Jean Williams for her contribution. Jean, if we may. Hi there. Yes, thank you for the invitation. I've been asked to speak on two issues. One is around Air Jordans, particularly interested in the history of sportswear and branding, and then to make some connections with football. So I'm going to start my comments around transcendence and Air Jordans. And in some sense, why now? Why has Netflix put the last dance out? And the narrative structure that is provided is that Michael Jordan owned his own labour and therefore could endorse lucrative collaborators such as Jordan with the Nike. In some senses, Air Jordans made Nike as a company. And the last dance presents us with a tragedy in essence in its narrative structure. It shakes fear in its shape. We see the rise of a talented young man to become the leading star of the team and an icon of the NBA is a franchise promoting the sport of basketball worldwide with scenes in Paris of the excitement generated by Jordan. Having risen to the height of his fame and sporting excellence, the tragedy is that Jordan owns his own labour, but not the means of production that makes it so valuable. The team owner, Jerry Rynsdorf and CEO Jerry Krause have already decided to break up the team and not backfield Jackson. The team achieves their target of the championship, but cannot overturn that owner's decision. And I think we have to think about the 1999 lockout indicative of these industrial relations and to some extent with parallels with what's happening to Colin Kaepernick. Jordan may be able to promote the whole sport of basketball and then a reported $40 million from endorsing Air Jordans, but he cannot overturn the decision of the owners. What he can do is in even more money through endorsements than he can as a basketball player. So transcendence is the key message you are Jordan product to achieve brilliant marketing strategy of selling not leather or polymer or even shoes, but the idea of air. It's what defines Jordan. By definition an aspirational product, a wish for a better life, a way of escaping a given situation and describe this way, Jordan's might seem like an entitled tragedy, but his personas narrative of his own history in the last dance addresses that too. And I don't know if anybody else was so distracted by the scotch, but what were they meant to symbolize all the way through. So what we see in last dance is not a retired basketball player, but an owner of several businesses, including his own motorsport brand is a bit of a petrolhead as well. So not only is he one of the most marketed sports people in history, he owns his own labor and the means of production now. And that's the difference between last dance and the season that it covers. So in some senses last dance as a program or series of programs is redemption for that last season. It is literally Jordan's last word to those owners. Moving on quickly to the collections with football. As we know in in the history of sports clothing, the trick tailor all stars for converse were among some of the first branded products to make the market although 10 issues have been 1870s onwards. In Britain, we've had a lot of footballers endorse their own boots from Stanley Matthews to George Best. But the problem with football boots is that they have cleat. And so they don't translate to streetwear in the same way that basketball shoes do until they're bent in the UK at least of the training shoe and again, like Gavin on with a huge Adidas fan. What was happening though in in the 80s to Adidas, a brand which popularized itself through World Cups, which are not so important in America as they are in in maybe Europe and Olympic Games, is that they were a family history that have been sold with a multinational and Adidas doesn't even own its own archive and because of that family history. So the move to leisurewear is obviously got a lot much longer history, but those who bought a Jordan's in the UK from 1984 onwards did not like Michael the sense of playing transcendental basketball, but is something to be worn in the street as as indicators, one of Americanization to black culture, great entrepreneurship and increasingly allied with music such as rap. The political situation around the release of a Jordan's in the UK was that Margaret Thatcher's government had a bitter industrial relations with the miners, teachers and so on. And at the height of the strike, there were food banks, collections of money in the streets, the miners and fights with police. So it was not an auspicious time to sell expensive sports clothing. But the idea of upward aspiration or yuppies was promoted by both Thatcher and Reaganomics and in that sense, expensive trainers were part of that lifestyle. Thatcher of course did not like football fans. And so in some senses, Air Jordan stood against the things that football stood for and retailing over 100 pounds in 1984. Lots of kids were actually mugged for their Air Jordan's it started off a new wave of violence in the same way that we now see expensive mobile phones in that so it was a real statement of status and taste and an indication towards US. Now, it's very common. If you, you, you may not spend a lot of time looking at Vogue or Harbinix or self produced websites. It's really, really common now. No big brand, no designer brand from Gucci to Armani and doesn't sell trainers and these are $400, 400 pounds, 600 pound trainers. The style of basketball, the high tops is still very much part of that sports looks trend. Interestingly, although there are now connections between Air Jordan and PSG, so Air Jordan has a distinct entity to get more involved into football. There's arguably no football player. I would argue even Cristiano Ronaldo and not even David Beckham, who has had the same range of endorsement as Michael Jordan, as it's broadened out from the original shoes into clothing and a range of accessories. So, yeah, that idea of transcendence is particularly interesting in our given political situation, when of course again in both America and the UK, we have two of the governments that we've had since the Second World War. This seems to me to be a real closing of the circle in terms of why this story has been published, been released now. And at the end of the day, of course, going back to my Shakespearean analogy, we don't see Michael Jordan as the young prince who dies. He actually has become the king and he's become the king of Reagan on it. Okay, thank you very much, Jean. I appreciate that. I think the line around, you know, the Jordan brand being part of the Americanization of globalization and the long discourse within, you know, international relations studies of the extent to which globalization is merely a pseudonym for Americanization. And the discourse back into what Americanization is as it becomes a more globalized society to fascinating part of this. I think also the dimension of race which you picked up on is something that we might return to. And I'd like to turn now to Mr. Luke Jarman, a brand expert. Luke. Hello everybody. Really, thank you very much for inviting me to be part of this. I'm going to talk about Michael Jordan and the Jordan brand from a pure branding perspective, which is what my career has been like most I'm drawn to success and the power of what can be achieved through hard work and dedication and Michael Jordan was the embodiment of that spirit and transcended, as people have said, not just the basketball court but also geographical regions to become this truly global phenomenon. And this was a time when I was starting to be really engaged in influence by sport. She fast forward to the end of 2019 and Jordan brand had its first billion dollar quarter. And that was before ESPN's last answer there. So over the past 15 years for me personally I've been working in the sports industry branding large sales for events and I've seen first and the reach of Jordan across my time in the Middle East, South America and North America. Wherever I went the Jordan brand was ubiquitous the reach and impact was apparent and never too far away. As we know athletes endorsements and personal lines are common, but really anywhere near the level and success and reaches Jordan has achieved which Jean has just been been highlighting as well. The night founder Phil Knight called the success of the Jordan Air Jordan one, the perfect combination of a quality products marketing and athletes endorsement. But despite these factors this success is not guaranteed for an athlete brand many athletes over the years have tried and failed to make the leap from a star player to have an impact brand and pure succeeded. Tiger Woods, Roger Federer, Usain Bolt are a few that have probably managed to match their success on their individual fields of play with their brand commercial power. But in today's today's connected world even huge stars global stars like Ronaldo, Cristiano Ronaldo as you mentioned in the message have struggled to have that same impact with their personal brands as they have on the football field. And even in Jordan sport basketball the breakout global stars like the Bron James and Steph Curry have not yet created so called super brands that have the fraction of the impact. This is partly due to the brands themselves being a little bit more savvy and a bit more aware of the possible negative connotations that a star player could bring the heart most high profile example would be Tiger Woods and his troubles of the not too distant part. Michael for his part has been very savvy on his aspect with her keeping a political and on political and cultural matters. And as Jordan supposedly once famously quits Republican by sneakers to. So what enabled both Michael Jordan and the junkman brand becomes so huge and have the impact and reach that it did and continues to have as outlined in Phil nice Phil nice quote there was a perfect combination of elements including timing that she didn't mention. But it was also helped having taste makers such as Spike Lee Sabrina Williams and Barack Obama representing and amplifying the brand over the years. This has helped us again as G mentioned increase that cultural reach far beyond sports and introducing non sports fans to the brand in hip hop film and youth culture in general. Jordan also benefited we have to remember from endorsements with other companies companies like Coca Cola and McDonald's both global behemoths in their own right and they saw the value in the Jordan brand and that helps amplify his brand. From a global commercial perspective as Alex alluded to in the opening statement basketball's popularity and Jordan's popularity in countries like China Japan and across Europe has helped bring in the revenue over the years something NBA has been keen to capitalize on this popular popularity led the NBA hosting games around the world and something that really took off in the 1990s which is no real coincidence. The Jordan brand also now spend several sports again as Jean alluded to including running baseball football and even golf along with casual sneakers and clothes. The Jordan brand is now listed along the standalone brand for example and cross collaborations and link up such as the recent Parisian man and Jordan collaboration that happened as a prime example. This has now been followed with Jordan jump man standalone pop up shops and experiences that are far removed from those original Jewish shoes but still embedded with everything Jordan has become known for. Despite sales waning slightly in the early to mid 2010 search back in the last couple of years as I mentioned, it seems like Michael's never give up attitude has been fused into the brand DNA, not really surprising as Michael has been so influential on the shaping of the brand over the years and the last time will only continues our eyes in today's world of massive information accessibility with an athlete ever have the same impact with what Jordan has globally I personally doubt it. And just to finish a quote from Jordan himself in a 1998 New York interview on celebrity impact he said it could easily be a matter of timing where society was looking for something positive he said it could easily be a sport that was gradually bursting out into the global awareness at the time when I was at the top. And then there's a connection I've had with corporate America since I started with Coca Cola and then went to night which is on totally global. He finished. I really really can't give you a sufficient answer. Thank you very much, Luke and Jean. What do you think therefore to open up again to the broader conversation here about brand and wonder whether the, you know, different perspectives we could draw on from colleagues around the world what is the Jordan brand and its position in broader cultural society picking up on Gavin's points about experiences as a, you know, well school boy and to degree, you know, the row family conversation. Where does the cultural linkages come into the entertainment business to Hollywood to, you know, street fashion to where were those access points and what did Jordan contribute in that sense. So if I asked how many people have at one point worn a pair of Michael Jordan shoes, Lindsay perhaps. And then you could just. What did the contribution make from your point of view. And I'm mindful I'm sat here wearing my jump man t-shirt. Actually, I had wondered whether I should wear my own jump man logo also be cross branding with France which for me is on brand, perhaps not for our audience today. You know, I think this is a really great question in terms of, you know, the part of the reason that we have today's global context. The globalization of basketball and the popularity that the NBA and the the jump man brand itself is because as you know several other people have pointed out, it's more than it's more than just it's about more than just basketball as an entire, not just lifestyle but also identity. I recall back to a conversation we've had with the co founders of all Parisian games Paul Adonis and a carisaco, who, you know, when we ask the question, you know, what, what does basketball identity mean to you in terms of, you know, just kind of broadly speaking. And they said the thing to understand is that it's a global identity. It's a global language. It's a way of belonging anywhere in the world that you go. You can you can instantly connect with and commune with others based on not just playing basketball but being part of this kind of basketball culture that goes from the shoes to the fashion to music to the game appreciating the game even if you don't necessarily play the game. I think that's one of the interesting things, you know, as Jean mentioned, there's certainly that that similarity with football. But here I think that the close connection with the culture and especially the music and the fashion angle helps to set basketball a little bit apart when you think of branding and a global context. I wonder in that sense if there's something here around the contribution that basketball and because of its cultural impact has in the diplomatic sphere and obviously that's new work that Lindsay and I have done as a part of a basketball diplomacy project that's been working on. But new actually to other colleagues here in the basketball's ability to be a sort of transcendent transcendental transnational function of diplomacy is actually one of its greatest qualities its ability to be interpreted in that sense. I wonder then maybe if we look at it in that regard the national dimension of this and come to question that we've been shared here around the role of national teams and the way that basketball has sometimes it's gone beyond the NBA in Chicago and last dance subjects and talk to the international dimension the opportunity for countries other than the United States to win the World Championships to compete for gold medals. But again perhaps that stems from the experience of the 1992 dream team and you know Jordan again has such a huge role in that regard. Right and I wonder if we could wrap this question first to Alex and then ask other colleagues to kind of chime in with their their own perspectives and takes from different parts of the world. And Alex you know you talked a lot a bit about the China connection and Jordan and the NBA's popularity there and the very deep storied basketball tradition and culture that China already has in place to what role does their national team though play in in any of this. Yeah, no it's we talk we've talked a lot about access points and because basketball had that great tradition. Jordan could be grafted on to it really easily you know you constantly here. Oh but we needed to be done with Chinese characteristics well it so happened that Jordan and his personality and his spirit and and this aura that he projected had something that Chinese people could connect with but the national team it's funny the as patriotic as Chinese people may be the national team is not the place where that gets expression in fact. I remember talking to a Nike brand manager Terry Rhodes who was in China for years and was the guy who essentially cultivated Yao Ming to join Nike as And he made the point that it's impossible to voice because the Chinese basketball consumer so savvy and so exposed to the NBA. You could not voice anything that was below that standard on them they were suspicious of it they thought the fast one was being pulled on them. And as a result, somebody had to be as great as Yao Ming had to go to the NBA and make it in the NBA before he could be reintroduced China and the Chinese League the Chinese national team is considered this kind of inferior product. And for years I love this anecdote because it shows the kind of market thinking that has been part of Chinese culture for for a century or more. But because China struggles so much on the international stage with its national team, and Chinese basketball apparatus was convinced it was because they just didn't have enough strong people and tall people. They introduced into the Chinese League a four point shot figuring would be an instant. And then I had shooters and that was the advantage and international play even more than they do in China. But they've never had great success on the national team stage and the NBA was just such a big foot that just suffocated everything in China until you had a little bit of a breakthrough with Yao Ming. Thanks very much. I wonder if we could bring in Edward on this discussion. Hi, yeah, so I'm from Michigan today, but my background I'm half English and half Spanish so kind of my introduction to basketball was on the Spanish size of country kind of a bit more intense there and I was perhaps going too young to engage with with Jordan as an athlete at the time but sort of more that initial exposure was through a brand but the kind of key moment in terms of my introduction with basketball was the 2008 Olympics with the redeeming and final with Spain and from kind of spanish perspective and perspective shared by kind of many in Spain that that chance you know for those who remember very competitive final and a lot of spanish was really excited about that opportunity to challenge the US national team and it it kind of shows a difference to to the model of a lot of American sports where the league is is a big brand and big sharing but other countries don't engage in the same way in my opinion when you're kind of supporting a foreign league and watching a foreign league as when there are the chance for those international fixtures which brings a deeper level of engagement particularly in those cases and those years where the US national team has kind of taken it more seriously in terms of the athletes that they supply to that and kind of just to tie in with the brand discussion as well. I think those those big events whether it's Olympics or other kind of big international fixtures extend a bit beyond the purely sporting event if you look at who tunes in and who participates and it's kind of a broader culture so those represent opportunities to kind of push that brand outside of the the kind of purely sporting domain so I think yeah that the international fixture side of it is is really important I think where a lot of American sports kind of could be doing more and isn't kind of traditional on that side to to get that international engagement is to to boost the the national team and the I wonder if that's as you know and congratulations to your your Spanish heritage for the championship last last year and if there's I think they're around the you know different ways in which Jordan can be attributed to the globalising function of or asset of the NBA at this point, you know the number of international players in both volume and diversity has grown so much because of the point that ever you know that Jordan had that accessibility whether you in Spain or elsewhere all you know countries with lots of you know basketball heritage within their own right of course but actually being able to you know the reverence with which Jordan is held by current generation of international players particularly as an access point is certainly something that speaks to the globalising effect of Jordan, you know from the 1990s and through to today. Has made that also ties into the dimension of you know the soft power, Joseph Nye's concept much maligned in some people's eyes but nonetheless has a real resonance within this cultural space. I wonder, Peter, might you just share a word or two on that. Yeah, thank you. I'm amazed that we are well into this conversation and nobody has raised the Walter LeFaber's book, Michael Jordan and the new global capitalism, which I think is a nice slim, very teachable book. I've used it in my classes for years, and really was the first book that I remember of a diplomatic historian of quite some renowned tackling a sport topic and viewing it with all sorts of significance beyond sports. And, you know just looking over the chapters now I mean some of the themes we've talked about are very much the backbone of this book, the history of how basketball globalizes of course and how that sets up Jordan. The swooshification of branding that he played such a big role in the perils of globalization. Some of the dark sides to which the series did not really get into in a lot of detail. The Faustian bargain of Jordan and then, you know the last chapter the greatest endorse of the 20th century or an insidious form of imperialism. A lot of these were dealt with in the book and I'm curious whether people have read the book what they think of it if it's still useful and how the last dance maybe has enabled us to think of Jordan, beyond what LeFaber put out almost 20 years ago. Because he saw him very much as kind of, you know, a tool of kind of McWorld, if you want to put it that way. The funny thing, you know, I can speak to my experience and certainly it's been part of my, you know, teaching and reading for, you know, a good number of years. I think, you know, betraying heritage is a diplomatic historian of sorts. LeFaber's critique of, you know, American imperialism, the American age really comes to the fore, I think, in Jordan and Jordan becomes the personification of this idea of what Americanization is. And its role in the global, in the rest of the world. And I think in that sense, you know, LeFaber picks up on a number of the, you know, less amenable qualities of that process. You know, McDonald's, you know, the McDonald's of the 1980s was a different industrial and commercial beast than it is today. You know, the rain, you just look at the state of the menu and the global health, you know, crisis that is obesity and, you know, top level athletes and it's a dilemma that, you know, many other organizations are faced, you know, the Premier League, the IOC. But that, you know, perhaps Jordan was a precursor to that in how his portfolio of assets, as it were, or contracts were played out on that global stage. There's certainly things with something to that, but that's just my two pennies worth. Other people's thoughts on that, perhaps the commercial entity that is Michael Jordan. Hi Simon, could I, could I speak to that? No means taken. I was just wondering what people thought of the fact Jordan was sort of involved in the production of this, of this Netflix show and the importance of keeping that product life, you know, going and, and the kind of control over the, you know, the content, what was shown I mean this is a bit before my time I have to admit so I don't know so much about what wasn't shown but I'm just interested in kind of people's thoughts on the way that these brand lines are kind of protected and the way that perhaps the, the way it was shown in the Lance dance was kind of a protected version of events. So that's a good point. The continuing sales that Luke spoke to. Michelle, did you wish to come in on that? Yeah, I appreciate that comment, Jacob. I, that was one of the things that I'm here from central Pennsylvania. I'm a big fan of, of Bron James so perhaps that color is what I'm about to say. I found his knowing his involvement in the production process, as I watched every episode of last dance increasingly frustrating, because to me it felt like this was a real attempt to try to definitively lay down his take on history and his, his interpretation and I just, you know, knowing that he really did have that final seal of approval made it for me a challenge to, I was constantly battling my inner critic of him and how the whole process played out. I would love to hear other people's thoughts on that too. You know, the difficulties that we have in identifying a true set of values, given this multi-channel, you know, world in which we live in, and perhaps harked back to that, not so much house on age but a different environment in terms of the 1990s where the social media dimension didn't allow for that discourse and that reinforcing bubble that we perhaps, you know, are now perhaps accustomed to. I certainly think it also plays to the, some of the values that we attribute to what we're looking at in terms of the racial dimension that we played to. We've got some hints of it in the series and certainly within the environment that, you know, basketball is taking place. And I'll know if, Nick, you might like to address your question about representation of players and coaches in this regard. Hi, Simon, thanks. You know, it just struck me. I mean, there's obviously lots of talk as there is in soccer in the UK about the lack of black representation amongst coaches. It would seem to be an over-representation amongst players in basketball. And it was in the context of SOAS really. Is that a paradox that you think has any impact on basketball diplomacy in Africa? It was just an observation. The question I wanted to put. Thanks, Nick. I wonder if I can also bring in Jonathan, Jonathan Mandel's question here about Mandela and basketball in Africa. Jonathan. Yeah, sure. Thanks for that. It's just fascinating to hear everyone's views and just also what struck me is, is obviously the global reach and just if I can before Mandela just add that personal connection. So I grew up in Israel and, you know, without getting too political about the closeness of America and Israel. And I think Simon, you've alluded to the Americanization of basketball in that sense. But Michael Jordan and Chicago and the NBA in general were huge in Israel, but also I think the Olympics were a huge part of that. But one thing that hasn't been mentioned yet is media. And it's hard to believe, but in Israel, up until 1990, there was one channel and 91, 92 cable TV starts to kind of show up. And then suddenly we've got new channels and we've got sports channels and we've got dedicated programs about the NBA and about Jordan. And then suddenly we see the finals broadcast live. So I think in terms of access points, which we've mentioned before, that to me was huge. I mean, I was 1314, 91, 92. So for someone growing up in that age where TV suddenly starts to have all these exciting players and things on TV, that was huge. And we also talked about social media. And I think that was really the first, perhaps, and I'm not definitively saying that, but perhaps that was the first time that we had someone of a statue of Michael Jordan in the pre-social media age. That was our social media, you know, the new TV channels. But that will be interesting to see what other people think of that. But back to Mandela, I was just wondering, as I was thinking about it, that I couldn't really think of another black individual that was as global as Michael Jordan. And I think the names that come up, Martin Luther King, obviously Nelson Mandela, and in 1990 Mandela is released from prison. And I was just wondering and also enjoying a line between basketball, diplomacy in Africa, and Jordan's ascent. Is it possible that Mandela had anything to do with the acceptance of Jordan as a black individual as global and an influencer? That's kind of the two main points that I was thinking about. Thank you, Jonathan. I wonder if anyone liked to jump in on that. I've certainly got some thoughts, but I'm mindful it's a discussion here. I'm happy to jump in on that one. So one thing that I think is really interesting, if you look at the context of sport in the US and the plight of the African-American athlete, this is something that's really embedded in our culture. We have had athletes such as Jesse Owens and Jackie Robinson and the Olympic track team of 1964 that had their protest on the podium when they won the gold medal. I think that if you look at that context already, the black athlete on the international stage has played a big role. If you think about Jesse Owens during those 1936 Berlin Olympic games, he stood in the face of injustice and he already was setting the stage. I think for further black athletes to have that voice and it's kind of, I think, been embedded within our culture and even looking today at some NBA athletes standing up for the Black Lives Matter movement or speaking out and being a political advocate. It's given them legitimacy as civil society actors, I think, within our context. Also given the central role and place of sport within the US context, I'm from the US, I'm from America. So I may be a little bit biased, but I do believe that sport within this context has played a particular role and then using these larger sporting events and games to kind of showcase that and use them as even a way to voice political views as part of it. Thanks, Piano. James, I saw you had your waving. Turn over to you. I started this one because working on the 70s, 60s, 70s of the radical black athlete and particularly the sort of global popularity of Muhammad Ali across not only Africa, but Asia, Latin America as well. And then working into someone like Jordan is a global brand where Ali doesn't have a commercial brand per se, but is a sort of international act and global action the same sort of light as Jordan. But then is Jordan then just the triumph of as Tony Conte is putting out with his words of neoliberalism and Reaganism, and the sort of Jordan is is the American triumphalism is part of why he's so successful into the into the 1990s the sort of changing dynamics Jesse Owens is always characterised as much more of a pro American sort of diplomat when he went out. And then he left the radical black athletes and then perhaps moving towards the neoliberal athletes of the 1990s, 1990s, and maybe Jordan, I just wanted people to have any opinions about whether, you know, sort of going back on to Lefebvre's point, is he just the is he just decided the right athlete for the times emerging and a willing participant in that the brand controlling the brand and becoming the brand, rather than being the athlete or the person. And particularly that's why with Jordan especially we very rarely see who Michael Jordan is. So, discussing so having this documentary with him supposedly opening up was meant to be a big reveal. The amount of money that went into supposedly producing the documentary to get his rights, and then the amount of control he had and his friends and management team had over it would also suggest that this is not even the Jordan. The actual Jordan that exists this is the Jordan again the brand that we're experiencing. I just wonder about that sort of issues that Michael Jordan raises for us as a global athlete is this Jordan we're seeing at all. Thank you very much, Jamie. Jamie, I think that really is a good point to sort of door down on to what extent is this only ever reconstruction of, you know, the reality that Michael Jordan wants to present to us, but then in the balancing opportunity that you know globalization is any of a constructive reality. And I think that contrast is perhaps we know complementality even is actually one of the things that we can get to, you know, really think about and be part of the ongoing, you know, conversation thinking about where you know if we release this, you know, in 10 years time, you know, what would Michael Jordan have been to a society in 10 years time is this a, you know, another drip in the, you know, continual tennis discussion that will mean that, you know, Jordan shoes will be sold, you know, long after the individuals, you know, past from the world. So I think these are, you know, really interesting points of how you sustain and debate and discuss and in some sense is we're, you know, having this conversation perhaps complicit with the conversation. Why is this fascination so ongoing. I wonder as we as we as we draw to a conclusion because we do have other things to do in our lives. And I wonder if could turn over to Bob Edelman to share a few thoughts as we draw down and then Lindsay and I perhaps just a couple of words to wrap up. Bob over to you. Those are the notes I was thinking about the things that I was going to talk about. But I'm kind of going to eat to intervention is made me think about something differently. So maybe I kind of raises and globally, I would actually like to talk about basketball, which has been not not featured in this conversation. So, where to put it. I appreciated Alex's, you know, first comments and bring it into the sort of historical context of China. And perhaps we can extrapolate that globally but I mean one of the things I got from last dance which I did not like I thought it was visually boring and repetitive and then it kept rupturing the extent that there was chronology so you didn't have the sense of genes point of moving towards the kind of try to ultimately tragic experience and conclusion. So, the other thing I got out of it. And so those are sort of played basketball. You can see this is that just how great the player he was. I mean he could do things that no one could do or do sense but there's a prehistory even to his game you know if there's basically a serving with a jump shot, you know, and, and even before Julia serving there were people like honey Hawkins and Belgian Baylor who played the same way, which was a black way of playing. And, you know, I think to Michelle's point of view, you know, a LeBron James portrays a notion of sport and politics and accepting and understanding what they're, you know, how they are implicated to be honest point. To say that sports that Republicans by shoes is another way of saying sports and politics don't mix. And if any of us in this chat, believe that we wouldn't be here for me early in the morning, taking part in this exhilarating experience so two things. First of all, I vote before reference before for this group this 1988 tour that the Soviet of the Soviet Union the Atlanta Hawks and David Stern was on that trip. And we got to know each other reasonably well and I liked him a lot. More more about in a second but at that time football was in big trouble if you recall. And it looked like basketball was going to overtake. Football is the world's number one sport, in terms of its kind of global presence. And that was very much feeding the sense of mission that these folks abetted by Ted Turner, you know, and CNN and international news and all the rest of that stuff. CNN was in the hotels and in the Soviet Union back in the day. You know, this was what might happen well we know how that worked out you know that football has gone on to greater strengths and become, you know, magnificently adaptable into the world of screaming and all the rest of that that we associate with progress. And basketball still, you know, does not have its standalone World Cup, you know, and that it's not the competition that the Americans take. Seriously, it's that's the Olympic competition where we're referenced was made to be a position of national terms and I would say that until it does it's still going to be a number two. You know, will not have the kind of global reach that football does or maybe they shouldn't even inspire aspire to. So I think I'll end on a moment of ambiguity. So, so I'm schmoozing with David Stern at the end of this and I said, Well I really like when we all get back to the US like to sit down with you and interview and see what you know what, how you are contemplating this process of globalization that you're about to launch on and he said I'd be glad to do it just as soon as I figure it out what the hell I am doing. I think that was being disingenuous myself. Final note, the dream team right is the dream team even imaginable without the 1988 Soviet victory in basketball. That was the thing that led FIBA to make the sport an open sport so that if you play them a professional team you could now go back and play in the Olympics. I think that was a huge enormous turning point and so we have to, you know, look back at what are the things that were precipitating that could we imagine. I mean there's this moment in the last dance where David Stern is very explicit about this notice the dream team spread American culture throughout the world was a moment of capitalist triumphalism and some of the the concepts of neoliberalism and this being the Jordan being the sort of emblematic of Reaganism and Thatcherism I think are at. So let me thank everybody who has intervened maybe that's not the right word thanks Simon thanks Lindsay thanks to a deal and all the people who help. And I'm now going to go out and buy some Russian food. I'm you, Simon. I will jump on. Simon you are there okay go ahead. I was just passing it over to you Lindsay. Oh, well, we will, we will try well thank you so much for that Bob I think that's one of the key questions that has come up in a lot of our work on the intersection of basketball and diplomacy and basketball is globalization. You know you talk to a lot of people in different parts of the world and it certainly is this surging in terms of popularity in terms of the number of people who are playing who is playing the sports, especially under the NBA umbrella, which is not all basketball, the sports consumption and increased mediatization and consumerization, but the question has always been can basketball take over the world. This is something we pose in the context of basketball diplomacy in Africa with the NBA and Phoebus basketball Africa League, which kind of ties a lot of interesting points together. But I think you're right until one of the world's biggest basketball playing countries takes the feeble World Cup seriously and doesn't treat. You know the Olympics as the only major basketball global tournament I think the sports popularity will suffer until that point comes. I know that there have been a lot of efforts made by Phoebus, particularly vis a vis the 2019 World Cup to try to shine a greater spotlight on the World Cup on the different teams involved in the World Cup history to a North American audience. But I think you saw that the US teams participation, all the media that was here in North America around the US team was perhaps not as positive or instilling a lot of viewer interest to tune in as it could have been. You know, will their performance I think they the US wound up finishing in sixth or seventh place at the World Cup seventh. Yeah, knocked out of the quarterfinals by France. All right. So, but I think that will help to help to propel hopefully greater interest and participation both by US players as well as potentially a US audience in the basketball World Cup, which will help to still stimulate everything. So that that's kind of some of my top line thoughts I agree with you very much on that and I think the the cultural aspect of basketball as a kind of global phenomenon very much is building into this as well as the world that social media plays. I know that there was a lot of activity on the chat about social media and how it how it's global connectivity and the marketability of specific athletes and leagues and teams have also fed into this. Those are kind of my my parting thoughts. A lot of really interesting factors coming together here, many of which we haven't had the time to fully dig into in terms of race and politics, the media component certainly as well. Another time another place I suppose as it were, but I've certainly learned a lot especially hearing from many international colleagues on how a lot of this intersection of basketball culture globalization is perceived through their lens. So I think you all very much for that. It's been a really enlightening conversation on my part including in the chat. And I will pass the mic back to Simon. Thank you very much Lindsay and again thank you to you and Jacob, but she can and Fadil for making this happen. I would like to thank each and every one of you who's chosen to join us wherever it may be in the in the world that you are over 50 people have contributed across those four continents and multiple time zones. I'm sure we could continue to talk about this for a long period of time and in some senses I'd be very welcome for that. We've got our Twitter handle jump man diplomacy, please feel free to jump on that. There's many things we could pick up, and you know, within the context of the work we've been doing it so as in terms of spawn diplomacy, please do have a look around the website and the basketball diplomacy in Africa project that Lindsay and I have recently included has an oral history bank for a number of colleagues some have been on this call to take part and, you know, feel free to share that with students and colleagues and you know hopefully we can continue to build that. And you know when bow does tip off whenever that maybe is the circumstances allow, we'll be able to take that conversation forward. I think we can pat ourselves on the back or give ourselves a high five and look forward to continuing the conversation so thank you all very very much for your time it's been a pleasure. Take care. Great. Thank you guys. Bye. Cheers. Thanks. Take care. Bye.