 Aloha and welcome to Cooper Union. What's happening with human rights around the world? Today, it's an exciting time to meet with Yves LaDor as we're looking at the human right to a sustainable environment. At this time, we see many meetings happening around the world. The International Union for the Conservation of Nature just wrapped up its first meeting in a while at Marseille, France. Just yesterday, the UN Human Rights Council launched its 48th session with the High Commissioner for Human Rights, Michel Bachelet, speaking about the human right to a safe, clean, healthy, and sustainable environment. And we know the UN General Assembly is also launching. And we have unprecedented times around the world where the climate crisis is in full rage. Yves, could you tell us what it was like to be last week in Marseille and what some of the issues were? I know you concentrated a lot on environmental human rights defenders. Hello, Harjosh. And thank you for having me here from Geneva. And indeed, it was interesting to be in Marseille last week. Although there was some frustration because usually these IUCN, the World Conservation Congress are a great opportunity to meet a lot of people coming from the field, from all over the planet. And of course, because of COVID, that was not possible this time. So that was really very frustrating. And a number of people were just able to participate remotely. But it was important to have this meeting. IUCN needed to have this meeting to elect new officers and to take new directions for the next cycle of the four coming years. So in that sense, it was very interesting. Indeed, we were able to have some interesting development. A motion was adopted for the protection of environmental defenders. It's an issue which really has taken a lot of heat, I would say over the last years. Unfortunately, because the situation of people who are getting engaged for the protection of the environment in many places in the world is becoming worse. And actually the human rights organizations are witnessing that the most severe conflicts are the most difficult trends, precisely affect the people who are active in the environment. And that's a new trend, I would say, since the last five years, something like that, or perhaps a bit even more. But it's always increasing. And again, this year is a record year in terms of people murdered because of their involvement in or the defense of the environment. Right now we are, for example, witnessing a closed down, a shutdown of all of the environmental organizations in Belarus. So there are really a number of issues there. So it was great that the IUCN took up this issue. There was actually a very moving moment during the assembly with a moment of silence, with a flower on the tables, one flower for each of the environmental defenders that was counted as disappeared last year because of their activities. Of course, the number is a bit not totally sure, but it was a very important signal and people were made a minute of silence, waving their flower, a very moving moment. And of course, I mean, this was important for the whole of the conservation and environmental community. We were able also to have a very important event between two commissions of the IUCN, the one on international environmental law and the one on the commission on environment and social policy, the CEPS. And the two together joined their efforts to talk about this question of environmental defenders. It was the really first time they were doing this together. And we can expect that both of them will continue to work together in the coming years on this issue. So it's great to have IUCN on board on this issue because it comes as a compliment to what has already been triggered in the Human Rights Council that you were mentioning before, and which has started its 48th session just yesterday. And in 2019, the council had adopted a very important resolution, which is called the Resolution of 4011 on the protection of environmental defenders. And that was a success reached by Norway, who speared, led all of these negotiations. And it was adopted by consensus in the Human Rights Council, which is quite an achievement. And it remains the main instruments. And I would say actually now we have the second instrument with the resolution of the IUCN. And these are the first instruments that environmental defenders, that means just behind, it's not a status. Environmental defenders mean people who are, normally people who are just getting involved for the protection of the environment and who are, who have to bear with negative consequences because of this very basic involvement, which is a very basic human rights. So it's good to have these instruments. Of course, what we see is say that it seems very weak when we see what people have to challenge and have to face when they are in the field. But it's very important to have these recognitions. And behind this also mobilizes institutions, mechanisms, develop a network of solidarity. So it's a whole process, which is in progress right now. That's why, for example, the two commissions of the IUCN coming together is quite an important event. And finally, we were able also to have a training session with a number of people coming in. It was the first time that a number of organizations who had never worked together before came together and developed a program. And we learned a lot from each other's experience. And it was the first step. We are looking forward to continue such an experience and to continue to work with the different networks existing in the field and to develop these solidarity networks in order to try to protect as much as possible the people who are attacked. And of course, to try to prevent having such developments. Oh, that's an excellent point. And it really is a situation we've seen growing more and more where people, everyday people are standing up just to protect their environment. And then because of that being targeted by their governments and corporations, I think was it Southeast Asia and Latin America were the highest numbers in the most recent aspects? Or what are some of the statistics regarding that situation you're sharing on environmental human rights defenders? Well, yes, the statistics say that's the biggest number are in Latin America, but we have to be careful. I mean, it's important to continue this way. That's one of the aspects we want to continue to work on because we are very far from having the real numbers and the good statistics because a number of issues and a number of cases are not reported. Let's not forget that you have so many local communities or indigenous peoples' communities who are defending their small pieces of land and who are targeted just because of that and we never hear about it. So I would say that one of the issue, I mean, it's very true that there are very huge problems in Latin America. That's absolutely true. On the other hand, it also show that you do have a number of mechanisms, human rights commissions, net solidarity networks and so on who collect this information and put in reports. So in a way, I would say that probably in Latin America, most of the cases are reported. When in many other continents, that's not the case yet. So that's why I'm always very, very careful about finger pointing any continent because I'm afraid that there are a number of situations which are not reported and that's why the statistics in a way are biased but precisely the more we're able to join networks together, the more we're able to have this information flow, the better we will be able to report on these issues. And of course, what we would like to see is these reports becoming useless. I mean, becoming empty. We're not running after the numbers far from that. We'd like this not to exist but at least it's extremely important that the realities is reported. And that's also the efforts in the coming years. And for example, the special rapporteur of the Human Rights Council on the protection of human rights defenders is very keen to keep an eye on these issues. And because as I said, it is one of the worrying trend. Of course, unfortunately, you have women defenders being attacked just because they are defending women's rights, LGBT defenders and so on, children defenders also. And that's an issue which does relate a lot with the environment because we have so many of these climate youth movements or other environmental youth movements. You have also very important youth movements involved against the plastic pollutions and other things. And then you do see that some of them are at least harassed. We do have a number of cases where you see that young people mobilizing in their schools or in their universities are targeted in their studies because of that involvement, which is one way, one type of harassment. So we have to see the variety of situations and to try to cover them correctly. And to make sure, I mean, it's particularly worrying when we think about the youth being targeted because of course it has an impact on the long run. And they are the ones who will have to bear the cost for the longest period of the mismanagement of the planet right now. So yeah, this is a very worrying trend and it is part of the issue of environmental defenders. Yes, and we're working here with Fridays for the Future in Hawaii, around the Pacific and the US. And we see that an alarming rate. We saw also at one of the important meetings, an amazing voice of one of the islands disappearing from the Solomon Islands, Kalei Island. And there you see youth standing up because then their homeland is actually under the waves. So it's definitely great to see the youth standing up, but it's definitely an area we need to concentrate on. As we look at that, I know it was also brought up a lot by the Indigenous Environmental Network looking at keeping the carbon in the ground by all the actions that they're taking. And I know there are some of the targeted individuals that you see in the US, in Canada, also a lot of action in Southeast Asia. So environmental human rights defenders are really being seen everywhere around the earth. Yes, yes. Yeah, yes, yes very much. No, no, it's very popular. We do have an issue with this name of defenders and we're aware of that. But on the other hand, you have to put a name on the situation. You cannot just say, oh, just everybody and so on. So, but again, I mean, it's very clear and that's for all of the situation of human rights defenders. You're a human rights defender when you just step up for your rights and the right to live in a clean and healthy environment is a fundamental right. And that's what we hope to be seen as and confirmed by the Human Rights Council in this session that started yesterday. Yes, maybe you could share a little bit more. Why is this resolution for the global recognition of the right to a safe, clean, healthy and sustainable environment so crucial maybe can explain those steps of safe, clean, healthy and sustainable and what that will then mean for many people around the world? Yes, well, it's in a way, I would say, well, it's all the symbolic. It is a very important, I mean, it's not done yet. So I don't wanna say we're gonna have it at the end of the month. We're fighting for that. And actually to be very clear as we're talking with the Hawaii audience, we need you to call on your government to do the right choice. And I'm not sure they're following the good path. We have heard from the US unpleasant signals. I could put it like that, saying that they don't think there is such a right to live in a clean, healthy and safe environment, which I have a lot of problems to understand and especially with the current administration. I mean, if ever you think because I know that the director of the EPA has said that climate change is a human rights issue, then if that is true, of course, to live in a safe, clean and healthy environment is a very fundamental human rights, especially, and that sometimes when I hear some of these lawyers speaking on these issues, I have the impression that they're still living in the 19th century. They didn't get the point that the environment we are and the destructions we are facing and the fires you have to face in the West Coast or the floods in Germany. And I can't do this whole list because the whole of the Northern hemisphere has been hit in a way or another during the last summer. These are not natural events. They're man-made events. Of course, they are natural process, but all of them have been marked by climate change. If it was not for climate change, they would not have that severity. Yes, of course, you would have wildfires. You always have them, but not of that scale, not of that length. You would have heatwave, but not of that level. So, same thing for the floods in Germany. Of course, they already had some floods but not at that scale. Not at the huge amount of water that was concerned. Not about a rain where basically you have a whole month coming in just an afternoon. That never happened before at that scale. So, these elements, this dimension is a man-made event. So, when we talk about the right to live in a clean and healthy and sustainable environment, it is just made, don't use the environment to kill people, which is exactly what is going on right now. Even if it's not intentional, and of course, we cannot say that the pollution which is causing this is an intentional act, but the reality is there. The way we behave, the way we move, the way we eat and so on, all of this today has an impact on others throughout the planet. It can be your neighbors, actually, whose house will disappear in a flood or it can be people living in a very faraway island. And then in Hawaii, you know what that means. And that will disappear. And I really remember this really moving call from a young person, I think it was from the Fiji, repeating again and again, you know, I'm a human being and I have human rights. I have, and actually his sentence was, I have human rights too, which means there's other youth coming from the Pacific Island. They were feeling that they are not treated by the rest of the international community and by all of the other countries on an equal footage, like if they were people of a secondary level. And that is just unbearable to think that, you know, it's just like if you were hearing somebody talking from the slave age, repeating in your face, you know, listen, I'm also a human being. That's exactly what they were saying. It was exactly with the same strength. And so it was, I mean, it's really tragic to think that today, this is what we are facing. And I'm sure probably all of you in Hawaii have a much more better feeling than I can have here in Geneva in Switzerland about this. But it was very moving to hear these young people doing such statement. And again, I really think, and I really hope that the US will finally at the end of this month, make the good choice and do not speak out. As some have said, very strongly against the idea of having a right to a clean and healthy environment. Otherwise it would mean that the US thinks that indeed as a superpower, they can decide who lives and die in the rest of the planet. And I think this goes exactly to the opposite of what the current administration has been saying. That is precisely not anymore the way the US wants to behave. So we would like to see this change being really translated here concretely in Geneva while we will have this discussion on the right to a healthy and sustainable environment. Now, why did it make a huge difference? First, until today at the international, at the universal level. I mean, at the world level, which means the UN, this has not been recognized yet when actually at the regional level in Europe with the European Court of Human Rights in Africa with the African Commission and the court in the Americas, not just Latin America but in the whole of the Americas with the Human Rights Commission and Court. Clearly here you have binding decisions from the courts, from the commissions who clearly say yes, you do have a right to live in a healthy and clean and sustainable environment. And of course the definitions in these three regional systems are a bit different from one system to the other. So it would be interesting that in a not too far future there is some kind of a unification or harmonization of these interpretation. And of course we'd like to see also Asian areas having also a possibility to have the same thing. So what we would like to see now is UN to move up to this level. And so this is the very first step. It will open a door for a discussion on how we define this. And this is why you have these four adjectives. Basically they encompass the variety of definitions of this right that you can find at the regional level or at the national level. The Special Rapporteur on Human Rights and the Environment, Professor David Boyd repeatedly has described how many constitutions, how many national systems have a recognition of recognitions but you have differences in these recognition. So these four adjectives, I don't wanna get into the legal definition of each of these adjectives. But the idea of having this four adjective is to cover the whole spectrum of these different definitions that exist already today at the national level. Thank you. And it reminds me also of the Pacific Island form in Tuvalu that took place the last one in person where Australia kind of sounded just like what you're worried about the US might sounding like where they said, don't worry about climate crisis you'll always be able to have a place to live cause you can pick our fruit. And it was that kind of a comment where everyone was like, you wanna live on our Pacific islands for life. We have a right to live with our thriving culture. We do not have a desire to just be a labor for you and come to your country. We want you to stop using cold today. And I think that is that call you do hear from the youth but also from humanity saying, I am a man, I am human. I have these rights and recognize that. And just to let you know on the United States side the US is of course running for the human rights council. So at the State Department meeting that took place last week before the human rights council session open as you said Monday, we were bringing up those issues and definitely applying the pressure. So we'll continue doing that. And also with the election having at least one or two side events in the general assembly which also is launching this month. And also when Biden speaks next week on International Day of Peace on the 21st to make sure that they know that civil society is in line with the rest of civil society around the globe. And we've recognized the right to a clean, safe, healthy and sustainable environment. Yeah, thank you, George. We'll make sure also on our side that we carry the voice of the, I mean, the signal, the voice of the US civil society and indigenous peoples organization too. And because of course the voice of the State Department as we heard it does not really reflect some of the very important movement existing in the country, including actually at the state level because I know that you do have some state legislation which are much more progressive and that does recognize this right. So in a way there is a contradiction and I would say a bad representation of what the US is when you hear this very, very conservative and I would say inappropriate positions from the State Department. Yeah, it's always concerning when the US, especially a new administration comes in that we think is fully supportive but then at the UN doesn't recognize those rights to economic, social and cultural rights and the environmental aspects that they claim at home. And so we do hope that is the case and you are correct. At the state level Hawaii of course with its unique role does recognize the right to clean and safe environment also water and those are aspects that existed due to the decolonization process but also for people demanding recognition of that indigenous cosmology that existed prior to contact that does exist. And also based on your inspiration with the work that you've been doing with Orhus as well as Kazoo Hawaii also looked at adopting the Orhus Convention and taking that on. So it's not quite the Pacific but that's one of the things hopefully we can conclude with on our conversation is looking at how we could work with civil society around Oceania and introduce legislation for the Pacific Island for more for the regional body because that was brought up recently at a diplomacy training program and wanted to share that people were very excited about seeing what is Kazoo has done and why that's a positive aspect and also how that also feeds in even to the important work on climate change and human rights at the UN Framework Convention on Climate Change that will be happening in Glasgow later in November. Well, that's very interesting. Yes, thank you very much for this information. And another element as you were mentioning the Orhus Convention I mean Orhus being the name of the Danish city where it was adopted and I think that was in 1998, I hope I'm right. I should be. But then this convention on access to information, public participation and access to justice and environmental matters which are basically what we call the procedural rights in the field of environment. Indeed, it is quite important and it's great that today it is complimented by the Kazoo agreement. But what is quite interesting is in the coming meeting of the parties of the Orhus Convention next October in Geneva, we will be able to greet a new member which will be Guinea-Bissau from another continent. And this is great news because and we know that there were other countries like Mongolia and there were also some discussions about other countries, perhaps from the Pacific. You know, I don't know. For example, New Zealand could very well joined. And so that would be really interesting to see these instruments continue its development as Kazoo agreement is one type of development but it is open to global ratification. So other countries can just come in and are already welcome to join. So I think we are returning point here and this is a very, very positive move. So we'll see how things will happen in October. We still have to wait for the meeting of the parties to take place. But I mean, we are very confident that Guinea-Bissau will be a new member. And this is really opening a very new interesting chapter of the convention. No, it is exciting the way you're sharing what's going on on the ground at the community level of the national capitals but also global civil society and those regional aspects because together all the pieces come together. The Human Rights Council will be meeting. You do note that it's important for us to put public pressure on. And could you maybe share the process of how the resolution will be introduced and then where it will go and how it could conclude on October 8th? Yes, well, the resolution is proposed, is put on the table by the group of countries. It's what we call a cross-regional group. So it's a group composed of Costa Rica for the Americas, Switzerland for the Western part of Europe, Slovenia for the Eastern part of Europe, Morocco for Africa and the Maldives for Asia. And this group of five countries are proposing this very simple, actually a very simple resolution which is basically recognizing the principle of the right to a healthy and sustainable environment. And as you said, it's a safe, clean, healthy and sustainable environment with the four qualifiers. And so we will have what we call informal negotiations in the coming week where the different, all of the countries, not just the members of the Council but also the observers. So that's pretty open, like the General Assembly. We'll have possibilities to make comments. And of course, whatever we hope is at the end of the day to have a consensus. Now, consensus is getting more difficult to reach in recent times. A number of the superpowers are a bit more playing around with this as they did before. I would say a decade ago, it would of course go by consensus. Today you see that you have a bit more of these tricks being played. And we saw that recently on the question of human rights and climate change which was quite unpleasant because it was really a whole game because a country, one of the superpowers has for a vote but at the end even abstains at the end of the vote. So basically it was like if we had a consensus. So it's a bit of a bad political game. So I hope we won't have it this time. But anyway, whatever the way it will happen, it is pretty clear that you have a huge trend, that you have a huge support, that you have a majority of states who have already these rights in their own legal systems. So it's a pretty logical issue to just recognize these rights at the level of the Human Rights Council. So we hope that these different informal negotiations will lead to the final adoption without a vote in October. So in a way, if it happens well, there will not be a lot to look at because the resolution will be introduced and then we will ask, is there a vote? No, nobody has asking for the floor and then it will be adopted. That's what we're hoping to have. Now there might be some discussion then you might have a small vote or a small discussion that could be the place, that that could happen. But we're basically hoping to have something unnoticeable in a way, but of course we will have, we will notice the stuff afterwards with the great party because it takes years that the civil society and a number of organization, indigenous peoples organization too, are asking for this global recognition because it's going to send a very clear signal. And the very first one is that it recognizes that people have a right to get involved on environmental matters. Let's not forget that at the international level, environmental international law is a law just between states and there's no access for people in these matters. So what it says is, yes, people have a capacity and a right to get involved, which was already a bit confirmed with the Aureus Convention or the Escazu Agreement. And you have this also, there was also in the preamble of the Paris Agreement, you had also such a recognition. But it was just in the preamble, not in the rest of the text. So we're going one step further now and having a very clear recognition of that. And I think it does bring some strength in terms of legitimacy for all of those who are active in this field to say, wait, this has been recognized by the international community. So now we should stop discussing about are we legitimate to act for the environment? Yes, we are. Let's see how we can do it in an efficient way. And I think afterwards this will help also in terms of helping states to put their activities and their actions together to have a more sense of, like a common standard, the former special rapporteur on the human rights and the environment, Professor John Knox, quotes Mrs. Roosevelt talking about a common standard of achievement. And I think it's a very good description of what it is. It gives a direction where all states should be trying to have a joint achievement. So it gives a purpose, it gives a direction. And so it's gonna bring some legitimacy and it's gonna bring some direction. And I think this will trigger some kind of a movement and further conversation among states, among civil society organizations. And it'll be a very good opportunity to bring business on board. And by the way, it's very interesting to say that, to see that we do have business. The B team, which is a very interesting grouping of trade unions, very big in transnational corporations made a very interesting statements at one of the last events on this issue, saying how much they totally support the recognition of these rights at the UN level. So it's quite interesting because they say, I mean, in a way saying, this is not the issue anymore. The next step today to be discussed is how do we implement it? How do we make it effective? That's what we need to do right now. So in a way we really have to go forward and stop having this discussion whether, do people have a right to act for the environment? Yes, of course. Let's move now to the next step. And even business is saying that. So this is quite an interesting move. That's perfect. And that's really where we can head. We know it's, the General Assembly will start. We know it's gonna be taking place in New York. We know they've had storms that were record numbers that were normally 500 year storms within two weeks canceling any coming back festivities from COVID showing the interconnectedness of all these crises that we're facing today. And we know the General Assembly will also look at these issues. And then we get ready to go to Glasgow as you're saying and focusing on those implementations with the nationally determined contributions. Look forward to continue the conversation Eve maybe then and also to hopefully celebrate at the end of this 48 human rights council session. Thank you so much for making time and appearing today. Thank you, Josh. Thank you for having me.